1. #23361
    You know Tanaria, the original alliance of humans, high elves and dwarves is a very powerful fantasy a lot of people like. Just because you & @MyWholeLifeIsThunder and @Alanar don't care for it, doesn't mean it is less valid or less popular. Just because it shares that with Lotr also doesn't make it any less appealing either even if you pour scorn over that. It is a powerful trio in many fantasies a lot of people love, and is a Warcraft core. Just because you don't agree doesn't change this.

    In fact it's an asset that draws people to the game, so why try to pretend it doesn't exist or argue against it existing? A good developer that agrees with you would be fully aware of this asset and it's significance to his game's population and it's target market. And even if he personally loves blood elves on the horde as high elves he would be unprofessional to ignore high elves especially at a time when the alliance needs to gain popularity and traction or allow himself to be confounded by arguments entirely constructed to hide these truths by fans who just don't like or want this to happen.

    All these arguments about blood elves not being alliance themed are just attempts to deny the validity of the claims and desires of these people because to acknowledge so would mean to accept this is part of a problem and would necessitate the fix you don't like.. which is removing the high elven alliance themes and aspects from the blood elves and the night elven civilization form the Nightborne to complete.

    I get you don't like this to happen, it's a legitimate feeling to have. You don't have to like it happening, but it is necessary and a good thing, and could prove a blessing in disguise down the line, especially if it leads to the improvements Ravenmoon and I came up with. [Yes we actually went through and listed all the pros and cons. And the pros far outweighed the cons. It's just Ravenmoon's manner of presenting things doesn't always endear getting along together.

    Your basically arguing all these points because you don't like this, not because it has no merit - this is why I say you're being disingenuous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    But why does the Alliance need to stay in one format and the Horde stay in another?
    Blizzard are not designing the factions to be like this and they haven't done so since TBC with the Blood Elves going Horde. Then in Cataclysm, the Worgen went Alliance and in Legion/BFA, we had races like the Void Elves and Dark Iron Dwarves, going Alliance.
    Just because the way the factions were designed changed in TBC because the blood elves went horde, doesn't mean that this was good for faction identity, faction theme or the heart of Warcraft, it also doesn't mean that the move was intended to alter that original theme and I can prove it.

    The blood elves inclusion was not to make the horde less like the horde of WC1-3 and classic, nor was it to take the horde in a new direction by making it part alliance, it was simply to make the horde more popular and lure alliance players over to fix the number issues. Evidence? the blood elves were never a major part of the horde narrative that always came back to orcs, tauren and trolls in the major faction plots up to BFA, but the large presence of players and the very prominent style of the high elf kingdom was a major attraction to alliance types.

    One of my observations is that the horde no longer need that right now. The aim in 2005 was to get them played a lot more, they are now, not only that they are popular and trendy. They don't need their blood elves having the high elf themes, the blood elves can shift ack to the bad boys, fel users, blood crystal sucking hard core, tight pressed elf group they were leading too from TFT, as state people on the horde find much more interesting and desirable than the vanilla high elf they are largely presented as.

    The vanilla high elf in contrast is highly popular amongst alliance fans, both old core alliance fans because it was the original foundation of Warcraft, and new fans that come in, who love fantasy, because of the popularity of this partnership in LotR and similar based fantasies like DnD, Warhammer etc - for both these reasons blizzard should capitalise on this to boost both the alliance and the game. And no one should be ashamed of Warcraft having this, it would be like being ashamed that Warcraft has werewolves or zombies - one of the reason wracraft is popular is because it has all these popular fantasy element in it close enough to the popular fantasies they come from - basically people like Warcraft and understand its races for this. Point is, it's no shame or bad thing that high elves are actually high elves and people like them that way, even if you don't. So sneering at others for liking human /high elf corporation fantasy and preferring high elf /orc corporation is just hypocritical and rather arrogant, especially if you try to paint it as something superior. You may prefer it, but it's clear a lot of people like the so called vanilla version you are looking down on. And to be frank your blood elves are currently too high elven for you to be criticising high elves like tha.t

    They are sacrificing an awful lot just to keep blood elves sitting on the horde like high elves, sitting on a faction that is nothing like they are, and sitting in a manner that is exactly like the opposite one.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    All of those themes are not typically Alliance, in fact I'd say the Dark Iron Dwarves have a closer resemblance and theme to the Horde, but the idea of "theme" is one's opinion. The Blood Elves are named "grim survivors" and that idea of being a changed survivor of a recent war that saw your race butchered to near extinction is something that melds very well with the Horde, as each Horde race has, except from the Highmountain Tauren, have faced some war that nearly brought themselves to ruin or were used by a tyrant. That is something that forever ties the Horde races together, and yes - the Blood Elves and Nightborne are included in that. The only race on the Horde that doesn't are Mayla's Highmountain Tauren tribe.
    I found it quite easy to grasp the context that was used. We all know the blood elves are on the horde, but they are not themed after your typical horde race, but rather your alliance race as they are the very high elves of the alliance of Wc2 and 3 that all original f. The explanation is simple, blizzard kept the blood elves like high elves, instead of developing them further into a truly distinct group like they had started doing.

    It would not be destroying the blood elves to take them back to that distinctive state and develop that, dropping the high elf portions and letting the alliance flourish on that.

    I am in agreement it will help the game in many ways.

    1. Boost the alliance, generate excitement and lead to attracting more players
    2. It will clear the horde of that alliance theme, the horde will no longer feel like part alliance, part horde, allowing a clearer more distinct direction
    3. High elves established on the alliance is a major attraction for old players who now have young, adolescent and teenage children ripe for getting into the game and drawing more fantasy fans of LotR into it. This is an asset, Warcraft is built on popular DnD/LotR/Warhammer type fantasy it copies, but weaves into its own unique story and format. I can assure you no alliance hates the high elves for being high elves. But hordies kinda do.. so why are blood elves on the horde so high elven? change it.
    4. It will free the horde and consolidate its theme. It doesn't exclude new unique themes being added, like the Pandaren in the future, that's part of growth, what must be avoided is to add alliance themes, because that homogenises the factions.
    5. The factions feeling ab it more distinct along the original lines, i.e. the alliance prominent with humans, elves and dwarves playing large and major roles, and the horde prominent for Orcs, Trolls and Tauren/Goblin is original wow. This means it is better for the elves to be a much bigger thing on the alliance and high/night elf types contain the heritage of their race there, rather than sitting on the horde with blood elves and Nightborne.
    6. this means blood elves and Nightborne mustn't be major in the horde as long as they are like the alliance high elves and kaldorei Highborne, but if they become more unique from them, they are far more beneficial to the horde bringing a unique flavour that isn't alliance and thus not destroying the large theme
    7. IT would be good for blood elves and Nightborne to lose their high elvish and night elvish characteristics, not only would it make them interesting, but it will allow them to grow, and like this they can actually play a much bigger role in the horde than they can now in their alliance surrogate role.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-01-23 at 01:02 AM.

  2. #23362
    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    Lots of races have unnatural hair colors, I think Void Elves can have their natural hair colors to complement their high elf customization options.
    It's the least complicated thing to add for Blizzard.
    It seems rather unfair that all Blood Elves can have blue and purple hair now, but Void Elves can't have a couple natural hair colors. At this point, Blood Elves have absorbed almost every trait Void Elves have. But when Void Elves ask for parity, that is somehow impossible?

  3. #23363
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arthur Blair View Post
    It seems rather unfair that all Blood Elves can have blue and purple hair now, but Void Elves can't have a couple natural hair colors. At this point, Blood Elves have absorbed almost every trait Void Elves have. But when Void Elves ask for parity, that is somehow impossible?

    Well, maybe to compensate, Night elves should gain more Nightborne features, in addition to void elves getting hair colour seeing that we are sharing.


    Or should they give high elves with everything high elves are suppose to have, and instead give blood elves new features (like opening up fel elf and undead customisations) and others to reflect new changes their story which will take their character and lifestyle away from what is high elven, so that the high elf things can be restored fully on the alliance and the horde identity of blood elves won't be alliance based but something else - more like Kael'thalas Sunsworn in TBC, but in the anti hero style they were going in TFT rather than the villains they became in TBC, now I wouldn't mind seeing the blood elves develop other new things, the whole blood crystal thing and Netherstorm thing could be developed further. Blood elves could gain a new reason to be angry and increase their recklessness back to TFT and classic levels - especially if their kin in Quel'thalas abandon the cause and return to being high elves, and later even expel them for being divisive/disruptive, dangerous
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  4. #23364
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Well, maybe to compensate, Night elves should gain more Nightborne features, in addition to void elves getting hair colour seeing that we are sharing.


    Or should they give high elves with everything high elves are suppose to have, and instead give blood elves new features (like opening up fel elf and undead customisations) and others to reflect new changes their story which will take their character and lifestyle away from what is high elven, so that the high elf things can be restored fully on the alliance and the horde identity of blood elves won't be alliance based but something else - more like Kael'thalas Sunsworn in TBC, but in the anti hero style they were going in TFT rather than the villains they became in TBC, now I wouldn't mind seeing the blood elves develop other new things, the whole blood crystal thing and Netherstorm thing could be developed further. Blood elves could gain a new reason to be angry and increase their recklessness back to TFT and classic levels - especially if their kin in Quel'thalas abandon the cause and return to being high elves, and later even expel them for being divisive/disruptive, dangerous
    I'm okay with Void Elves taking up the anti-hero mantle and Blood Elves becoming lightforged or w/e (though fel or undead features would be neat too). I just hate how little customization and VARIETY Void Elves have. It's not like a few new hair colors would suddenly stop Entropic Embrace from proccing either, they would still be Void Elves with earth tone hair colors. Personally, I want a rich brunette brown for Void Elves. Also, they don't need to be copypaste hair colors, make them washed out looking like some suggestions here.

  5. #23365
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Well, maybe to compensate, Night elves should gain more Nightborne features, in addition to void elves getting hair colour seeing that we are sharing.


    Or should they give high elves with everything high elves are suppose to have, and instead give blood elves new features (like opening up fel elf and undead customisations) and others to reflect new changes their story which will take their character and lifestyle away from what is high elven, so that the high elf things can be restored fully on the alliance and the horde identity of blood elves won't be alliance based but something else - more like Kael'thalas Sunsworn in TBC, but in the anti hero style they were going in TFT rather than the villains they became in TBC, now I wouldn't mind seeing the blood elves develop other new things, the whole blood crystal thing and Netherstorm thing could be developed further. Blood elves could gain a new reason to be angry and increase their recklessness back to TFT and classic levels - especially if their kin in Quel'thalas abandon the cause and return to being high elves, and later even expel them for being divisive/disruptive, dangerous
    I understand your point of view (I read some of your posts). However, I think your way of approach is flawed. It is like you said previously. That the devs will do what they consider best to satisfy the majority (assuming they are not acting based on favoritism). Removing high elven characteristics from Blood Elves completely while giving high elven stuff to the Alliance instead will cause a great uproar by the majority of the Horde. That will not be a wise decision. And I speak as a player who has played Alliance 90% of the time. The entire Blood elf theme is High elven. That is why there are so many people playing them. Indeed, in agreement to what you said, they are the top models of the Horde, their prettiest race, the jewel of the Horde. Ofcourse they would hate to lose their High elves, you are tottaly right. But STEALING the High elves from them, with the literal meaning of that word, and giving them to the Alliance, will not be the answer. Hatred will not create more subscriptions, or benefit the Alliance. All the lads and lasses who grew up playing 10+ different blood elf classes will probably unsub or jump to the forums to express their dissatisfaction.

    However, the Alliance has achieved a great victory in Void Elves. We were given the same character models as High elves, and now we also have light skin colours. What we need to do is shift our focus to the Alliance, and discuss about what can be added to the Alliance. Not about what should be taken from the Horde. Ignore the Horde for a moment. Think about what the Alliance can further receive to achieve the High Elf dream and boost its population. Focus on Void Elves and Night elves. Become one voice with what I advocate and openly request hair styles and light hair colours for Void Elves. White, Blonde, Pastel pink and Black. We need these colours to achieve a true High elven look. Once we obtain these then our Void elves can look like High elves and there will be no need for a completely new race like High elves to be added since that will be unneccessary (3rd race that would look almost identical to blood elves and void elves). You could ask for Alleria's tattoos as well for those who like the void theme to make them even more appealing.

    Also, other than exiles, Void elves originate from High elves. They should be given an opportunity to build their own High Elf city on the Alliance in unison with the Silver Covenant High elves. And to keep enhancing that void theme their High elven city could be built in Telogrus. It would be beautiful. Imagine a dark blue starry sky and a large High elven palace structure with gold and blue colours being built in Telogrus, which will be expanded to a huge new questing Area for starting Void Elves!! It perfectly fits with the lore, and void elves will have their own questing area and city! Their own unique city, not stolen from anyone. The devs have great freedom in story making and can perfectly achieve this if they wish. They could even forget about Telogrus and insert in the story a reason for the void elves and the Silver covenant high elves to build a new fortress together (maybe upon old Dalaran crater). The possibilities are endless.

    And the Night elves are owed the rebuilding of their city by the devs. After it was destroyed by Sylvanas, they need to find a new home, a new city to build. Unopposable. Night elves have gained a lot of customizations and look wonderful nowadays (I currently play one). Give them their city and they are good as gold. Nothing to envy from the Nightborne.
    Last edited by Eleann; 2021-01-23 at 03:53 AM.

  6. #23366
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Arthur Blair View Post
    I'm okay with Void Elves taking up the anti-hero mantle and Blood Elves becoming lightforged or w/e (though fel or undead features would be neat too). I just hate how little customization and VARIETY Void Elves have. It's not like a few new hair colors would suddenly stop Entropic Embrace from proccing either, they would still be Void Elves with earth tone hair colors. Personally, I want a rich brunette brown for Void Elves. Also, they don't need to be copypaste hair colors, make them washed out looking like some suggestions here.

    That seems a more attainable expectation. When you are fan of Warcraft and have dealt with blizzard a while, you learn to manage your expectations. I still think it's not enough, high elves can be a key part of a host of improvements to help fix the game. Rather than quietly pass void elves off as having high elf properties to keep blood elves on the horde as high elves - i think it's lost sight of what the elves are in Warcraft and it is that very mixing up of them that's caused the current faction number crises and theme crises.


    Blood elves on the horde in that very high elf theme and nation has in many ways crippled the alliance, because one of its key original races and fan faves are now on the horde in a very alliance centric fashion - effectively giving the horde the best of the alliance - so if you pick alliance you're getting all the things the alliance does, but you have a better version on the horde.


    This also confuses the horde in a sense, once very distinct in theme and character form the alliance, with blood elves on the horde in that high elf fashion, this is no longer ht case, it immediately makes the horde feel part alliance, which in turn makes the factions feel more similar, less distinct, which was already difficult at first. With the liens further blurring it threatens to undermine the very need for factions - which is supposedly what Warcraft is based on.


    Now blood elves on the horde may have been a good idea when they wanted to lure alliance players over and make the horde popular so people will have reasons to pick it, it may have felt this was a bigger issue worth temporarily allowing this blurring of the factions and diminishing of the alliance. But the horde gained it's popularity, it is very popular, and now further, it is the alliance that is in trouble, no one wants to stay there, and people keep moving over. Social pressures have exacerbated the issue but they are not the source. Why play alliance when the horde basically has all the things it has? Horde gets all the cool stuff, and basically is where it happens. Players generally moved there for all those factors, for blood elves, for the cool stuff, the narrative prominence, racials, - so even when they buffed alliance racials in 6.0 it didn't change it (ofc it didn't in classic, horde had better racials but the alliance was still more played - because it wasn't racials that determine but popularity and style - horde's in fashion and blizzard has elf the alliance bland.


    The alliance's biggest assets are the elves, high elves and Night elves. But the best part of these races, including the biggest nations of both of them are on the horde in the blood elves - who have the high elf kingdom of Quel'thalas and effectively high elves even in their behaviour and attitude, as well as themes and culture, and the Nightborne who actually brought the civilization side of the night elves to the game world through Suramar, a bright spot for them, only to have the night elves who were originally from there but now on the alliance, have their homes completely destroyed, population genocide and left a pale fraction of the night elves spoken about in the WC3 manual and WotA trilogy who reached a height of arcane magical knowledge and a utopic civilization that spanned the globe, inflicted the first defeat on the all conquering legion armies, and were still strong for 10,000 years without their powerful magic they kept away from to protect the world, and still managed to rally to defeat legion attack round 2 - and yet this is what they are now, immortals no more, once restoring their civilization, it's gone, while their original city is sitting on the horde, their Well of Power the fabled Well of Eternity, the magic that runs in their veins basically doing nothing, their nature magic other half, tied up in a tree, world tree both Nordrassil and Shaladrassil, also doing nothing for them - nothing cool nor exciting - = lame. But hey they give the Nightborne, the kaldorei city, an amazing story and an incredible tree that represents the duality of the kaldorei, nature and magic - basically , the kaldorei made for more interesting and properly told out in game.


    And guess what? It's horde. Yet another alliance based race (the night elf sub-race this time) full with alliance themed culture, and civilization (the kaldorei civilization, a city, full of arcane magic, with night elf ideology , sense of right and wrong, defenders not conquerors - i mean you don't get more alliance attitude and nobility than Thalyssra, who's 7.0 showing puts her right up there in the company of Malfurion, Tyrande, Jaina, Anduin, Alleria, Turalyon, etc. Why? Because it's alliance themed, the kaldorei civilization is the one the high elves derive their civilization from in the Warcraft lore and in turn is the one that influences the human ones and human like races of the eastern kingdoms - human, elf and dwarf who form guess what in Wc1-3? Yes, the alliance.




    It is key and dear to the alliance, always has been, and it surprises no one that people make more requests for and noise about high elves and night elves on the alliance than any other alliance race, ofc they would, the high elves are part of the alliance DNA, off course they are going to want it. And some of the alliances more die hard fans will forever resent the blood elves being on the horde and view them as not belonging their or deserving to be there. I say blood elves are on the horde, now, we must live with that, however it will fix a lot of things if they were not on the horde as high elves, and high elves get restored to the alliance, while blood elves embrace that bad boy, anti-hero role they were actually originally being made


    The whole problem is that, there was nothing wrong with the TFT Blood elves going that way, nor high elves remaining high elves and on the alliance. there was nothing wrong with the kaldorei expanding to recover their fallen civilization and restore the best of their tow eras, the pre-sundering and long vigil. these things weren't denied the alliance because they were bad or blizzard didn't want them there, they were denied the alliance because the horde needed to be popular and attractive... so now it is, why are high elven stuff and night elven stuff being fed to the horde still? Why are these things not taken back to the alliance who now needs the popularity and these two races written to shy like they were going to?


    It won't cripple the horde, but it will boos the alliance. The horde is popular now, look at the current classic, it has no blood elves, yet the population is 50/50 overall , no where near the disparity on live, why? because on live you have this imbalance of alliance elven races on the horde in way too alliancey a format.




    In Conclusion
    So if I'm honest, they should go big for the alliance now. No more backdoor playable high elves and minor concessions, this is not what the alliance and the game truly needs. I feel, high elves should return in style and carry the Lightforged mantel with void elves continuing as they are, like the darker side, except this time the two aren't enemies, maybe even bond to each other and their powers get enhanced.


    High elves returning with their races full profile, which is arcane masters (frost and fire), Farstriders and light wielders. Meanwhile blood elves go the anti hero route. Fel magic, blood crystals, undeath vampirism (San'layn/darkfallen connection), nether arcane -

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    I understand your point of view (I read some of your posts). However, I think your way of approach is flawed. It is like you said previously. That the devs will do what they consider best to satisfy the majority (assuming they are not acting based on favoritism). Removing high elven characteristics from Blood Elves completely while giving high elven stuff to the Alliance instead will cause a great uproar by the majority of the Horde. That will not be a wise decision. And I speak as a player who has played Alliance 90% of the time. The entire Blood elf theme is High elven. That is why there are so many people playing them. Indeed, in agreement to what you said, they are the top models of the Horde, their prettiest race, the jewel of the Horde. Ofcourse they would hate to lose their High elves, you are tottaly right. But STEALING the High elves from them, with the literal meaning of that word, and giving them to the Alliance, will not be the answer. Hatred will not create more subscriptions, or benefit the Alliance. All the lads and lasses who grew up playing 10+ different blood elf classes will probably unsub or jump to the forums to express their dissatisfaction.
    Tbh, I really don't think any hatred will exist on anywhere near that scale. The horde are not losing playable blood elves, and they are losing the shiny bits so they can be made big on the alliance in their original high elf form.

    Tbf, I think most traditional horde fans and alliance fans will welcome the move and love it, yes, a small section of core blood elf fans would be unhappy, but it's not entirely unjustified, high elves are on the alliance and are an original race of the alliance units as anyone who played wc2/3 knows.

    Trust me, there was more anger when blood elves went horde, and Teldrassil got burned down than there would if some blood elves and their lands return to the alliance, and Suramar becomes night elven again through the Arcan'dor and the kaldorei and Kirin'tor friendships, high elves etc.

    Why? because everyone knows these fit more naturally on the alliance because everything they've shaped the blood elves since TBC and everything the Nightborne are, are alliance based and high elven and kaldorei which are not horde races.

    So some like Tanaria, would label it as stealing, but they're just playing with words and venting - and if this would be stealing, then what was the original that saw two alliance races go horde? exactly.

    Why Is an Alliance Race The Jewel of the Horde?
    The blood elves should not be the jewel of the horde, that's very bad for the horde, because of how alliance themed they are. but they were meant to be pretty to attract players, they did, now the horde is super popular, for all the effort blizzard put in through the years - the high elves, the focused narratives, the coolest things for 6 expansions in a row fed horde, the racials etc.

    Do you not think it's time for the horde to be cool for being the horde? I don't think they should deny the alliance the high elves because the model is so pretty, that's weird logic. there are many good reasons for the high elves to make a return to the game now, and for the blood elves on the horde to strip away every thing that is high elven about them in their character, culture and theme so the two factions become thematically more distinct once more.

    it's not working with blood elves on the horde as high elves.. too alliance. Blood elves on the horde must become non-high elven, and high elves return. The race does not belong to the horde. Like the Nightborne, it was designed for race on the opposite faction. it's time blizzard get a bit more original for the horde/ that's my opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    However, the Alliance has achieved a great victory in Void Elves. We were given the same character models as High elves, and now we also have light skin colours. What we need to do is shift our focus to the Alliance, and discuss about what can be added to the Alliance. Not about what should be taken from the Horde. Ignore the Horde for a moment. Think about what the Alliance can further receive to achieve the High Elf dream and boost its population. Focus on Void Elves and Night elves. Become one voice with what I advocate and openly request hair styles and light hair colours for Void Elves. White, Blonde, Pastel pink and Black. We need these colours to achieve a true High elven look. Once we obtain these then our Void elves can look like High elves and there will be no need for a completely new race like High elves to be added since that will be unneccessary (3rd race that would look almost identical to blood elves and void elves). You could ask for Alleria's tattoos as well for those who like the void theme to make them even more appealing.

    Also, other than exiles, Void elves originate from High elves. They should be given an opportunity to build their own High Elf city on the Alliance in unison with the Silver Covenant High elves. And to keep enhancing that void theme their High elven city could be built in Telogrus. It would be beautiful. Imagine a dark blue starry sky and a large High elven palace structure with gold and blue colours being built in Telogrus, which will be expanded to a huge new questing Area for starting Void Elves!! It perfectly fits with the lore, and void elves will have their own questing area and city! Their own unique city, not stolen from anyone. The devs have great freedom in story making and can perfectly achieve this if they wish. They could even forget about Telogrus and insert in the story a reason for the void elves and the Silver covenant high elves to build a new fortress together (maybe upon old Dalaran crater). The possibilities are endless.

    And the Night elves are owed the rebuilding of their city by the devs. After it was destroyed by Sylvanas, they need to find a new home, a new city to build. Unopposable. Night elves have gained a lot of customizations and look wonderful nowadays (I currently play one). Give them their city and they are good as gold. Nothing to envy from the Nightborne.
    You make a fair point, but the reason I feel it has to be both.. and by both , I mean, high elves added to the alliance, and that part of them in the blood elves removed from the horde (note we are not talking about removing blood elves from being playable, just blood elves getting a similar treatment to the night elves in BFA, i.e. losing their and become a very small group, with the bulk of their population switching to the alliance by reclaiming their original heritage.

    The reason the horde has to lose it is so that the horde stops having alliance themes and influences in it. Part of the reason the horde keeps siphoning numbers is because it is doing alliance better than the alliance. This has been the trump card of the blood elf horde loving crowd in the rivalry arguments, they've secretly enjoyed having a prettier model, a prettier and more advanced city, better arcane magic, than the alliance.. these are all things the alliance is about - hence alliance themes. They're most proud about the blood elves for being alliance and don't even realise it.

    This has an effect on the horde and the alliance. The effect on the alliance is that in some players, or rather in enough players playing alliance is irrelevant because you gain nothing, the horde does everything the alliance can do better in the blood elves (and now Nightborne), - this is what happens when you give the horde alliance stuff at the very best.

    The horde also gets to no longer be that distinct or horde-ish, but instead becomes part alliance. And I'm not talking about being monstery, they could have created another attractive race, and given it a majestic civilization that doesn't feel alliance...look at Pandara, look at Zuldazar, look at Revendreth, look at Naz'jatar, look at Skyreach these are all impressive and majestic civilizations that do not feel and appear alliance. This is not about consigning the horde to just monster races, no, it's about removing the alliance element in them.

    This is why in my proposals the horde keeps blood elves and Nightborne, they just lose the high elf home and the night elf city and they get to build something new later down the line that looks different. Their models aren't going to become ugly all of a sudden, but their models can be given new features, optional off course, but if they are cool, and a bit more menacing, i think players would want to take them, helping distinguish them further from the high elf. We don't have to worry as much about Nightborne who already loo different, for them, it's just losing Suramar and losing that kaldorei Highborne nobility Thalyssra operates as

    There Are Other Alternatives
    Like you said, your alternatives aren't invalid, but above are the reasons why the alliance must gain this accompanied by the horde losing it. No one likes to lose stuff, and it would be nice if we could all win, but in this case it won't be as helpful.

    e.g. We could give the alliance a great high elf city, establish the void elves as the main elf group, magically populate them, have the remnant high elves join them etc.. while the blood elves continue as is, don't lose anything, maybe even play less of a role in the horde.

    But even in this scenario, as long as the blood elves don't lose anything, they're still far too alliance. That is a problem for things like theme and fixing the factions identities back to the original, you can't do that with alliance themes so powerfully and prominently on the horde like the blood elves and Suramar have been.

    It is a liveable though. but you will still have the factions feeling a bit samey.

    The question you must ask yourself, is it such a bad thing for blood elves to lose Quel'thalas and become less high elfy? Why the anathema? They won't lose their models, in fact they could become even more interesting. IF they are not alliancey in character this could open the door for them to be more prominent in the narrative because they will no longer be making the horde feel alliance like, which is why blizzard has always been careful about the blood elves in major horde plots, they've had their own side plots like Theramore and the Thunder king etc, but until BFA, were back seat, and kept that way, to reduce their visible effect during the stories, so the horde still felt a bit more horde.. but you really can't hide that super shiny high elven good ness can you. too bright. Dull it. The horde's not supposed to be that sort of faction.


    Build the Night elves a great city and space too, and leave Suramar with the Nightborne. That would also make the alliance more attractive, more attractive for elves too and the night elves can be restored without the Nightborne losing Suramar. That's also true. However, the reason why Suramar must leave the horde is for the exact same reason why Quel'thalas must go back to the alliance. It's too alliance themed.

    Now, the Nightborne could rebuild Suramar and keep the zone, that would work, provided the Night elves get something amazing and very kaldorei, like Zin'Azshari from warbringers, but frankly I think it would be easier to give them Suramar, I suspect Suramar was built to be the new night elf capital after the burning of Teldrassil.

    Same with Quel'thalas, the blood elves could remake it in a new image. The only thing is that both Quel'thalas and Suramar are deeply tied to the high elves and night elves, Suramar is the city all our kaldorei heroes in war of the ancients come form, it's the HQ of the Order of Elune too, and the second most powerful and amazing city of the night elven pre-sundering civilization.. the populace had lost sight of their true nobility thanks to addiction by the time the Legion came through, but they ended up fighting for what's right, only for a repeat to happen in7.0, where Thalyssra and Lunastre work together to remind them of that.

    So while Nightborne and blood elves are these people who have changed physically (green eyes and skinny bodies) they are still very much in a high elven and night elven persona, which is why the story needs to have the citizens of Quel'thalas and Suramar turning into high elves and Night elves, rather than being killed or expelled. The alliance needs a nation, and the best way to provide a high elf nation is if the blood elves there choose to become high elves. Similar in Suramar, the best way to make it alliance is that it's citizens get healed y the Arcan'dor into their original form and connect with all their kin, not just the island night elves and Moonguard or Highborne. Because it is their city and their land as much as it i that of the high elves in exile and the Darnassians who originally come form it

    So the story will have the Nightborne in Suramar turning into night elves, and the blood elves in Quel'thalas choosing to re-identify as high elves. So who remains on the horde? Well that's part of the story. Not all blood elves will want to re-identify as high elves , but many of the citizens of Quel'thalas have really never left there nor had any other life, they are essentially high elves, they're not battle hardened warriors super angry and bloodthirsty. Similar not all Nightborne would like to be restored, and could magically halt the healing process and choose to sustain themselves on the arcane. We did meet Nightborne in Suramar who felt their destiny to reclaim the world was upon them, well, these would favour the more conquering and aggressive stance of the horde and would not want to be a part of the alliance.

    I'm sure blizzard can weave an interesting tale as to how this all goes down.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  7. #23367
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    SNIP
    Ok then;
    Well Night Elves must lose all of Kalimdor. Night Elves must be defeated again. You won't like it but your feelings are to be disregarded, as this must happen to keep the Horde playerbase active and make people want to play the Horde.

    The Forsaken move in and claim Darkshore. Lor'danel is finally destroyed and New Darrowshire is built in it's place. Led by Dark Ranger Delaryn Summermoon.
    The Sin'dorei teleport the Sunwell and Magister Terrace to Ashenvale and together with the Horde, Lor'themar, Thalyssra and the others kill the night elf populace in Ashenvale. From that point, the Blood Elf Magisters bless the zone into an eternal spring and it's renamed to "Felo'Thalas" where the Blood Elves thrive.
    The Shal'dorei claim Desolace and with their Horde allies drive out the Alliance again and kill them all. Occuleth could be the figure head of this region.

    Feralas is where Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei unite and they take over Feathermoon Stronghold and rename it to Sundusk Stronghold. Farstriders, Duskwatch Warriors, Nighthuntresses and Guardians train here. This can be monitored by Duskwatch Captain Victorie and Scout Captain Elsia.
    Eldre'Thalas is where Rommath and Valtrois monitor the Magisters, Arcanist, Sorceresses and Archmagi as well as the Warlocks. When they need to, Lor'themar and Thalyssra leave Orgrimmar to address their people's in Eldre'Thalas. Portals are set up between Eldre'Thalas and Felo'Thalas, so the Sunwell can be protected. The Dire Maul dunegons are removed completely and those areas are added to the Azerothian Map, but it's for Horde players only. Alliance players will be oneshotted if they approach Eldre'Thalas.
    Isildien is transformed into a town for Blood Elf Priests and Blood Knights, under the watch of Lady Liadrin. Darkmist Village can be a Shal'dorei town for the Nightborne Priests, perhaps this can be under the eyes of Silgryn.

    Stonetalon, Felwood and Winterspring is mainly populated by the other Horde races, although the Elves do hold a presence in each. Blood Elves in Felwood and Winterspring and Nightborne in Stonetalon.
    Obviously, Blood Elven Archmagisters will be with the Sunwell, but powerful Nightborne Archmagisters will monitor the Well of Eternity atop of Hyjal.

    Now, with the Night Elves gone, the Blood Elves and Nightborne also claim the Well of Eternity atop of Hyjal. Together, with the powers of the Sunwell in Felo'Thalas and the Well of Eternity, the Elves create a magical barrier that protects Kalimdor from any invasion. Any nelf who tries to come through will be extremely weakened. The chances of nelfs ever reclaiming their ancient lands will be none-existent because the Blood Elves' and Nightborne's magic is too powerful.

    In 10.1, Dark Ranger Velonara, Ranger General Brightwing and Ly'leth Lunastre work together in claiming Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isle, where the Forsaken and Elven armies drive the last remnants of the Alliance from Kalimdor. The Alliance could claim Highmountain in 10.1.
    Ly'Leth opens up the Sun Gate and the Horde armies can be pouring through and overwhelm the Draenei and they are easily defeated.

    Now, I understand that you don't like this. It's natural to not want this, but this is necessary because the Horde must also keep their Elves and make them look good, as well as the other Horde races claiming the areas of Northrend. Probably the Southern regions of Northrend, so Zul'Farrak, Icecrown, the Storm Peaks and Sholazar will not be claimed. They don't provide any benefit for the Horde anyway as they need to be as close to the Southern parts of Northrend anyway.

    Their are several benefits to this, for Blood Elf and Nightborne fans:
    1) They claim the lands of those who robbed them of their's.
    2) They are still very powerful, plus the Horde has two founts of power at their disposal.
    3) The Horde has full claims to a continent, just like the Alliance.
    4) The Night Elves and Void Elves might have Suramar and Silvermoon, but the newly enchanted Felo'Thalas with the Sunwell Plateau being expanded into a city and Eldre'Thalas are true signs that the Horde Elves might have been battered, but once again - they are not out. Nightborne might not have a city, but the eternal night that they bless Desolace with as well as rebuilding those ruins would make up for that.
    5)It still makes people want to play the Horde. The Alliance aren't the only faction and this very idea is the best idea to ensure that people still play the Horde faction. People can't become disillusioned by the Horde losses and no gains. Night Elves have to suffer so the Horde will still be a great faction to play.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-23 at 08:06 AM.

  8. #23368
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Ok then;
    Well Night Elves must lose all of Kalimdor. Night Elves must be defeated again. You won't like it but your feelings are to be disregarded, as this must happen to keep the Horde playerbase active and make people want to play the Horde.

    The Forsaken move in and claim Darkshore. Lor'danel is finally destroyed and New Darrowshire is built in it's place. Led by Dark Ranger Delaryn Summermoon.
    The Sin'dorei teleport the Sunwell and Magister Terrace to Ashenvale and together with the Horde, Lor'themar, Thalyssra and the others kill the night elf populace in Ashenvale. From that point, the Blood Elf Magisters bless the zone into an eternal spring and it's renamed to "Felo'Thalas" where the Blood Elves thrive.
    The Shal'dorei claim Desolace and with their Horde allies drive out the Alliance again and kill them all. Occuleth could be the figure head of this region.

    Feralas is where Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei unite and they take over Feathermoon Stronghold and rename it to Sundusk Stronghold. Farstriders, Duskwatch Warriors, Nighthuntresses and Guardians train here. This can be monitored by Duskwatch Captain Victorie and Scout Captain Elsia.
    Eldre'Thalas is where Rommath and Valtrois monitor the Magisters, Arcanist, Sorceresses and Archmagi as well as the Warlocks. When they need to, Lor'themar and Thalyssra leave Orgrimmar to address their people's in Eldre'Thalas. Portals are set up between Eldre'Thalas and Felo'Thalas, so the Sunwell can be protected. The Dire Maul dunegons are removed completely and those areas are added to the Azerothian Map, but it's for Horde players only. Alliance players will be oneshotted if they approach Eldre'Thalas.
    Isildien is transformed into a town for Blood Elf Priests and Blood Knights, under the watch of Lady Liadrin. Darkmist Village can be a Shal'dorei town for the Nightborne Priests, perhaps this can be under the eyes of Silgryn.

    Stonetalon, Felwood and Winterspring is mainly populated by the other Horde races, although the Elves do hold a presence in each. Blood Elves in Felwood and Winterspring and Nightborne in Stonetalon.
    Obviously, Blood Elven Archmagisters will be with the Sunwell, but powerful Nightborne Archmagisters will monitor the Well of Eternity atop of Hyjal.

    Now, with the Night Elves gone, the Blood Elves and Nightborne also claim the Well of Eternity atop of Hyjal. Together, with the powers of the Sunwell in Felo'Thalas and the Well of Eternity, the Elves create a magical barrier that protects Kalimdor from any invasion. Any nelf who tries to come through will be extremely weakened. The chances of nelfs ever reclaiming their ancient lands will be none-existent because the Blood Elves' and Nightborne's magic is too powerful.

    In 10.1, Dark Ranger Velonara, Ranger General Brightwing and Ly'leth Lunastre work together in claiming Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isle, where the Forsaken and Elven armies drive the last remnants of the Alliance from Kalimdor. The Alliance could claim Highmountain in 10.1.
    Ly'Leth opens up the Sun Gate and the Horde armies can be pouring through and overwhelm the Draenei and they are easily defeated.

    Now, I understand that you don't like this. It's natural to not want this, but this is necessary because the Horde must also keep their Elves and make them look good, as well as the other Horde races claiming the areas of Northrend. Probably the Southern regions of Northrend, so Zul'Farrak, Icecrown, the Storm Peaks and Sholazar will not be claimed. They don't provide any benefit for the Horde anyway as they need to be as close to the Southern parts of Northrend anyway.

    Their are several benefits to this, for Blood Elf and Nightborne fans:
    1) They claim the lands of those who robbed them of their's.
    2) They are still very powerful, plus the Horde has two founts of power at their disposal.
    3) The Horde has full claims to a continent, just like the Alliance.
    4) The Night Elves and Void Elves might have Suramar and Silvermoon, but the newly enchanted Felo'Thalas with the Sunwell Plateau being expanded into a city and Eldre'Thalas are true signs that the Horde Elves might have been battered, but once again - they are not out. Nightborne might not have a city, but the eternal night that they bless Desolace with as well as rebuilding those ruins would make up for that.
    5)It still makes people want to play the Horde. The Alliance aren't the only faction and this very idea is the best idea to ensure that people still play the Horde faction. People can't become disillusioned by the Horde losses and no gains. Night Elves have to suffer so the Horde will still be a great faction to play.
    The reason for the high elves returning and the kaldorei rising to prominence, the horde losing Quelt'halas and Suramar is to boost the alliance and remove the alliance elements form the horde so that 1. alliance players aren't lured there and 2. the horde is a more unique and diverse entity that can focus on being what it is without the alliance.

    Your suggestions don't seem to have a good reason, they seem motivated from fan rivalry. You're stripping the night elves of some of the things you feel Ravenmoon wants. But I read him focus more on improvements for the horde than the alliance (a mistake imo), and you haven't given the alliance anything. You're just doing this out of sour groups, you think you are making relevant point, but I just see a fan angry at the prospect of losing what he likes so he suggests his rival loses the things he feels he likes.

    You feel we have proposed this intentional remove the things you love because of some petty emotional reason like hate or greed so you suggest things that you feel we love be removed. You're just behaving like a fan, going all out tit for tat.

    That isn't a very good motive for suggesting changes. It's not even what you like. I helped reach the conclusions Ravenmoon writes about, and there are very good reasons for things going that way. They don't have to go exactly that way, but something similar like he seems to have written to Eleann above in his "There are other alternatives" section.

    But yes, fine have your suggestions. Who has what territory is usually just story , and you need ups and downs, but I won't be given the alliance or night elves many downs, the idea is for them to look very good, and be attractive, this I presume is why Raven never suggested the alliance losing anything, but focused on both factions gaining, . yes even the horde, for while they lose the high elf and night elven things, they gain lots of other things too.


    Also why would the druids, dragons and wild gods leave Hyjal to the horde? Your vision plans the world but doesn't factor anyone but the horde? there are horde races involved in the Circle, and it's more about the planet than any race or faction. It is they that control Hyjal not the night elves or the alliance.

  9. #23369
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    The reason for the high elves returning and the kaldorei rising to prominence, the horde losing Quelt'halas and Suramar is to boost the alliance and remove the alliance elements form the horde so that 1. alliance players aren't lured there and 2. the horde is a more unique and diverse entity that can focus on being what it is without the alliance.

    Your suggestions don't seem to have a good reason, they seem motivated from fan rivalry. You're stripping the night elves of some of the things you feel Ravenmoon wants. But I read him focus more on improvements for the horde than the alliance (a mistake imo), and you haven't given the alliance anything. You're just doing this out of sour groups, you think you are making relevant point, but I just see a fan angry at the prospect of losing what he likes so he suggests his rival loses the things he feels he likes.

    You feel we have proposed this intentional remove the things you love because of some petty emotional reason like hate or greed so you suggest things that you feel we love be removed. You're just behaving like a fan, going all out tit for tat.

    That isn't a very good motive for suggesting changes. It's not even what you like. I helped reach the conclusions Ravenmoon writes about, and there are very good reasons for things going that way. They don't have to go exactly that way, but something similar like he seems to have written to Eleann above in his "There are other alternatives" section.

    But yes, fine have your suggestions. Who has what territory is usually just story , and you need ups and downs, but I won't be given the alliance or night elves many downs, the idea is for them to look very good, and be attractive, this I presume is why Raven never suggested the alliance losing anything, but focused on both factions gaining, . yes even the horde, for while they lose the high elf and night elven things, they gain lots of other things too.


    Also why would the druids, dragons and wild gods leave Hyjal to the horde? Your vision plans the world but doesn't factor anyone but the horde? there are horde races involved in the Circle, and it's more about the planet than any race or faction. It is they that control Hyjal not the night elves or the alliance.
    Nope, Night Elves have to lose their lands, but they will gain Suramar and Silvermoon. They just won't have the nice extra things that go with them.

    And the Night Elves would be removed from Hyjal, it doesn't matter how it works in the lore, but they must be removed because the Horde has been removed from the Eastern Kingdoms and the Broken Isles. I'm sorry, but nelfs must lose Kalimdor. From the top of Hyjal right down to Feralas.
    The Alliance must be given a lot of downs and if you want elf stuff, then you sacrifice your elf stuff as well. Nelfs must be brought down and out of Kalimdor.

    The alliance already has the East and the Broken Isles, what more do you want? You have to give up night elf lands. It's required and necessary and you clearly don't like it, but you might like what the night elves do in Suramar...it's just none of their future lore will involve Kalimdor at all. Kalimdor fully belongs to the Horde as well as all the old nelf locations. Lor'themar, Thalyssra and acting ruler, Dark Ranger Velonara will be given those lands, but obviously the majority of the elf land will go to Lor'themar and Thalyssra.
    Felo'Thalas could be a great questing location, driving the last remnants of the nelfs out as well as any demons and satyr. Obviously, the Horde keeps the Sunwell as the Void Elves are too dangerous so the Magisters of Quel'Thalas teleport it and the Magister's Terrace to Felo'Thalas and their new city is expanded. Zorum Strand to Astrannar would make for a great new Blood Elf City, with their blood elf tapestries, both the main ones and those of the blood knight order. Maybe even a Sunfury one or two.
    Eldre'Thalas and Feralas would make a great introduction for new Blood Elf and Nightborne players, where they are directed to certain people depending on the class (obviously, DK's, Monks and DH's aren't involved in this.)
    Can't you see how great this will be for Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei or do you not care and do you expect to bully blood elf and nightborne fans and bully us into silence as you try and ruin our favorite races because your still salty that all the alliance is, is Humans and their pets?

    My suggestions are of very good reason. You just don't like them because they involve nelfs being removed from Kalimdor, which they must be. You don't like it, but it's tough. Kalimdor BELONGS to the Horde, from top to bottom, in relation to the Alliance claiming both the Broken Isles and the Eastern Kingdoms.

    I will keep saying that nelfs must be defeated on Kalimdor and brought low, but they will have Suramar, so it's fair.

    Perhaps you need to take a step back, as you seem too warped up in the ideas of the ridiculous nature. Stop being salty and move on. You might be better for it. Forget WoW and the Night Elves. You'll be better for it.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-23 at 04:26 PM.

  10. #23370
    [
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Well Night Elves must lose all of Kalimdor. Night Elves must be defeated again. You won't like it but your feelings are to be disregarded, as this must happen to keep the Horde playerbase active and make people want to play the Horde.
    I have read your whole post but will not quote the entire thing to save space. IIRC you are saying these things in reaction to ravenmoon's suggestions, not because this is actually what you wanted WoW to head towards. I think this pointless back and forth of attacks between you and ravenmoon should stop so we can actually have a constructive discussion. Because, frankly, what you both are requesting will not happen. Night elves will not claim Suramar and Void/High elves will not claim Quel'Thalas. And ofcourse the Alliance will not lose Ashenvale or the whole of Kalimdor. Why? Because this would be too much work for the devs just to satisfy high elf and blood elf fans. As simple as that. Waay too much work. And guess what. It would take WoW very far from where WoW is actually heading to since WOD. WoW is heading towards uniting the Horde and Alliance factions. With Baine, Thrall, Thalyssra and Jaina, Anduin, and the rest of the leaders (even Sylvanas seems to have no hate towards Anduin) it would be counter-productive to lead the factions to their primitive warfriendly state. Yes I know about the whole it's-world-of-warcraft arguement many like to state, but the game gets older and progresses and so does its story, and that is where it's heading to. I am a pro-faction unison advocate in fact, as this will solve many of the issues the faction imbalance causes atm (longer queue times, lack of sufficient hardcore or semi-hardcore guilds on Alliance).

    So I suggest you and ravenmoon try to find some common ground so this thread can move back to the official forums with fresh, VIABLE suggestions.

    In fact, I like ravenmoon's suggestion to include some Sun'Layn features for Blood elves, like perhaps sprouting vampiric wings in combat or something. They should also be given permanent vampire fangs to prove their anti-hero choice more. They would love that. Maybe even remove some of the blonde hair colours and leave two (they have 4 blonde shades, not high elfy at all eh?). Push them more towards that anti-hero route if the devs wish to maintain a separation of the factions, because atm all they have to suggest they are Horde are their green eyes option and their banner. So as result high elf hair colours and unique hairstyles will be added to Alliance, and Sun'layn wings (in combat) and fangs to Horde. The high elf characteristics cannot be completely removed from Horde, but the devs can definitely suggest a more demonic/vampiric approach to the playerbase, and alter the story in a manner which gives unique cities to the void/high elves and the night elves, and narrates the merge of Blood Elves into the Sun'Layn covenant and the addoption of demonic and vampiric features from them.

  11. #23371
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    [

    I have read your whole post but will not quote the entire thing to save space. IIRC you are saying these things in reaction to ravenmoon's suggestions, not because this is actually what you wanted WoW to head towards. I think this pointless back and forth of attacks between you and ravenmoon should stop so we can actually have a constructive discussion. Because, frankly, what you both are requesting will not happen. Night elves will not claim Suramar and Void/High elves will not claim Quel'Thalas. And ofcourse the Alliance will not lose Ashenvale or the whole of Kalimdor. Why? Because this would be too much work for the devs just to satisfy high elf and blood elf fans. As simple as that. Waay too much work. And guess what. It would take WoW very far from where WoW is actually heading to since WOD. WoW is heading towards uniting the Horde and Alliance factions. With Baine, Thrall, Thalyssra and Jaina, Anduin, and the rest of the leaders (even Sylvanas seems to have no hate towards Anduin) it would be counter-productive to lead the factions to their primitive warfriendly state. Yes I know about the whole it's-world-of-warcraft arguement many like to state, but the game gets older and progresses and so does its story, and that is where it's heading to. I am a pro-faction unison advocate in fact, as this will solve many of the issues the faction imbalance causes atm (longer queue times, lack of sufficient hardcore or semi-hardcore guilds on Alliance).

    So I suggest you and ravenmoon try to find some common ground so this thread can move back to the official forums with fresh, VIABLE suggestions.
    I meet nonsense request with nonsense request. I am perfectly willing to have a discussion, about Void/High Elves (since this is the thread for it) and discuss how they can be improved in the lore and in the features.

    My ideas about a new home for the Void Elves include 2 places. 1 being the city of Zin-Azshari. Now, this might seem ridiculous but Void Elves are risk takers. Why not claim the city of their ancestors and live in it. Create a void and arcane bubble that prevents them from drowning and develop Zin-Azshari into a City that works. It's poetic that the Void Elves will go and live in the city of their ancestors, plus Void Elf Mages and Warlocks would likely feel right at home.

    Or, the Void Elves and High Elves could move to the Allerian Stronghold and expand and develop that fortress into a functioning city. Claim Firewing Point as their own and if they do want some Blood Elf involvement, the Scryers can still operate as a neutral party between them and Quel'Thalas (which would still be Horde.)

    I don't think the Night Elves work in Zin-Azshari as they've been expanded and are Kalimdor focused, which is fine because ideas about developing Darkshore and Feralas for them, can be expanded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    In fact, I like ravenmoon's suggestion to include some Sun'Layn features for Blood elves, like perhaps sprouting vampiric wings in combat or something. They should also be given permanent vampire fangs to prove their anti-hero choice more. They would love that. Maybe even remove some of the blonde hair colours and leave two (they have 4 blonde shades, not high elfy at all eh?). Push them more towards that anti-hero route if the devs wish to maintain a separation of the factions, because atm all they have to suggest they are Horde are their green eyes option and their banner. So as result high elf hair colours and unique hairstyles will be added to Alliance, and Sun'layn wings (in combat) and fangs to Horde. The high elf characteristics cannot be completely removed from Horde, but the devs can definitely suggest a more demonic/vampiric approach to the playerbase, and alter the story in a manner which gives unique cities to the void/high elves and the night elves, and narrates the merge of Blood Elves into the Sun'Layn covenant and the addoption of demonic and vampiric features from them.
    Some of these ideas could work, but I think the San'layn are just too close to the idea of Blood Elf Death Knights. Personally, I see the addition of Dark Ranger features to be better because Velonara still sees herself as a sin'dorei defender and it would be cool to develop that.

    With the Blood Elves and Nightborne staying in their regions (with these additions), I see no better time than to develop some Dark Ranger interaction. Quel/Sin'dorei Dark Rangers with the Silvermoon Farstriders and the Kaldorei Dark Rangers and the Nightborne Nighthunters developing a union...that's another thing, the Dark Ranger Kaldorei could move to Suramar as I'm sure Thalyssra would welcome them.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-23 at 04:41 PM.

  12. #23372
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I meet nonsense request with nonsense request. I am perfectly willing to have a discussion, about Void/High Elves (since this is the thread for it) and discuss how they can be improved in the lore and in the features.

    Some of these ideas could work, but I think the San'layn are just too close to the idea of Blood Elf Death Knights. Personally, I see the addition of Dark Ranger features to be better because Velonara still sees herself as a sin'dorei defender and it would be cool to develop that.

    With the Blood Elves and Nightborne staying in their regions (with these additions), I see no better time than to develop some Dark Ranger interaction. Quel/Sin'dorei Dark Rangers with the Silvermoon Farstriders and the Kaldorei Dark Rangers and the Nightborne Nighthunters developing a union...that's another thing, the Dark Ranger Kaldorei could move to Suramar as I'm sure Thalyssra would welcome them.
    Now that's more like it! I like suggestions that harm nobody x. We should all work together so the devs can have a foundation to start working towards.

    As for the Sun'Layn, ''Blood-Queen Lana'thel, is the leader of the San'layn, a group of Kael'thas' greatest followers, raised in undeath by the Lich King and transformed into vampiric beings.[4] [/B]''. Yes they were raised by the Lich King, but not as death knights, but as vampiric beings. Thus, it could be a possibility that Bolvar Fordragon chooses to revive Blood-Queen Lana'thel so that she assists him in defending Azeroth with her own army of vampiric elves while he is in the expedition in the Shadowlands. She makes a small army out of her closest devotees which are also raised as vampires, and that's how Belfs gain some Sun'Layn customizations and lore.

    Alternatively, the Dark Rangers can be added as customizations instead, since they are already in the game! Simple and effective and perfectly viable. I have no issue with either of these. Red shiny eyes and pale skin, and ofc available mogs to look like them.

    As for the Void Elves, a few unique hairstyles and hair colours such as white (draenei white), blonde (x1 shade), void blonde (a shade with two dark blue shiny highlights to indicate a void corruption and make them unique and really cool), black, and a pastel pink because it would look real cute. Also tattoos like Alleria's to be made available. And with void elf and high elf cities, I have no issue whether it is in Telogrus or somewere else (although Telogrus would probably be a great opportunity for a new and unique expanded void zone with a high elf city in it) , and night elves building their own home either along with the Nightborne in Suramar and share different sections of Suramar with Nightborne, or build their city elsewhere, both sound fine.

  13. #23373
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Now that's more like it! I like suggestions that harm nobody x. We should all work together so the devs can have a foundation to start working towards.

    As for the Sun'Layn, ''Blood-Queen Lana'thel, is the leader of the San'layn, a group of Kael'thas' greatest followers, raised in undeath by the Lich King and transformed into vampiric beings.[4] [/B]''. Yes they were raised by the Lich King, but not as death knights, but as vampiric beings. Thus, it could be a possibility that Bolvar Fordragon chooses to revive Blood-Queen Lana'thel so that she assists him in defending Azeroth with her own army of vampiric elves while he is in the expedition in the Shadowlands. She makes a small army out of her closest devotees which are also raised as vampires, and that's how Belfs gain some Sun'Layn customizations and lore.

    Alternatively, the Dark Rangers can be added as customizations instead, since they are already in the game! Simple and effective and perfectly viable. I have no issue with either of these. Red shiny eyes and pale skin, and ofc available mogs to look like them.

    As for the Void Elves, a few unique hairstyles and hair colours such as white (draenei white), blonde (x1 shade), void blonde (a shade with two dark blue shiny highlights to indicate a void corruption and make them unique and really cool), black, and a pastel pink because it would look real cute. Also tattoos like Alleria's to be made available. And with void elf and high elf cities, I have no issue whether it is in Telogrus or somewere else (although Telogrus would probably be a great opportunity for a new and unique expanded void zone with a high elf city in it) , and night elves building their own home either along with the Nightborne in Suramar and share different sections of Suramar with Nightborne, or build their city elsewhere, both sound fine.
    Possibly, but I think the few hints we've got, Blizzard are (hopefully) going to push for more of a Dark Ranger/Blood Elf mix, rather than trying to push a vampire theme with the San'layn. Let us not forget that since Lana'thel was killed, the rebel San'layn that Sylvanas had employed never interacted with the Blood Elves and it's not exactly clear whether Lor'themar and Silvermoon were in the loop of knowing she had taken them in.

    Let us also not forget that it was the San'layn's former Queen that shattered Quel'Delar and betrayed the Horde, by draining the life out of Sylvanas' Forsaken. I think it might be better to further the story of the Forsaken and Sin'dorei reforming the bond that tied them during the events of TBC and WoTLK, but specifically look at the Dark Rangers, Farstriders and Nighthunters.

    Now, as a city - Telogrus could work well, but I was just thinking of the idea of bringing the Void Elves back to Azeroth, since they are still natives. Zin-Azshari could work as the city has been a location of void and arcane practices for 10,000 years, since it was destroyed. Plus it's Elven, and could easily be changed. The Alliance could be the ones who use Zin-Azshari, to teleport to the void-world-where-we-go-and-fight, and this could be where Umbric, Alleria and the Void Elves begin setting themselves up.
    The Horde could possibly use Suramar? (I don't know about that one, but the Nighthold raid did contain some arcane-voided conjurations, so it's possible.)

  14. #23374
    Well and so it goes again

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Nope, Night Elves have to lose their lands, but they will gain Suramar and Silvermoon. They just won't have the nice extra things that go with them.

    And the Night Elves would be removed from Hyjal, it doesn't matter how it works in the lore, but they must be removed because the Horde has been removed from the Eastern Kingdoms and the Broken Isles. I'm sorry, but nelfs must lose Kalimdor. From the top of Hyjal right down to Feralas.
    The Alliance must be given a lot of downs and if you want elf stuff, then you sacrifice your elf stuff as well. Nelfs must be brought down and out of Kalimdor.

    The alliance already has the East and the Broken Isles, what more do you want? You have to give up night elf lands. It's required and necessary and you clearly don't like it, but you might like what the night elves do in Suramar...it's just none of their future lore will involve Kalimdor at all. Kalimdor fully belongs to the Horde as well as all the old nelf locations. Lor'themar, Thalyssra and acting ruler, Dark Ranger Velonara will be given those lands, but obviously the majority of the elf land will go to Lor'themar and Thalyssra.
    Felo'Thalas could be a great questing location, driving the last remnants of the nelfs out as well as any demons and satyr. Obviously, the Horde keeps the Sunwell as the Void Elves are too dangerous so the Magisters of Quel'Thalas teleport it and the Magister's Terrace to Felo'Thalas and their new city is expanded. Zorum Strand to Astrannar would make for a great new Blood Elf City, with their blood elf tapestries, both the main ones and those of the blood knight order. Maybe even a Sunfury one or two.
    Eldre'Thalas and Feralas would make a great introduction for new Blood Elf and Nightborne players, where they are directed to certain people depending on the class (obviously, DK's, Monks and DH's aren't involved in this.)
    Can't you see how great this will be for Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei or do you not care and do you expect to bully blood elf and nightborne fans and bully us into silence as you try and ruin our favorite races because your still salty that all the alliance is, is Humans and their pets?

    My suggestions are of very good reason. You just don't like them because they involve nelfs being removed from Kalimdor, which they must be. You don't like it, but it's tough. Kalimdor BELONGS to the Horde, from top to bottom, in relation to the Alliance claiming both the Broken Isles and the Eastern Kingdoms.

    I will keep saying that nelfs must be defeated on Kalimdor and brought low, but they will have Suramar, so it's fair.

    Perhaps you need to take a step back, as you seem too warped up in the ideas of the ridiculous nature. Stop being salty and move on. You might be better for it. Forget WoW and the Night Elves. You'll be better for it.
    People like him will give blizzard ideas, if we don't stop them on the forums. Good job T. Make sure you block him on the official forums too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Now that's more like it! I like suggestions that harm nobody x. We should all work together so the devs can have a foundation to start working towards.

    As for the Sun'Layn, ''Blood-Queen Lana'thel, is the leader of the San'layn, a group of Kael'thas' greatest followers, raised in undeath by the Lich King and transformed into vampiric beings.[4] [/B]''. Yes they were raised by the Lich King, but not as death knights, but as vampiric beings. Thus, it could be a possibility that Bolvar Fordragon chooses to revive Blood-Queen Lana'thel so that she assists him in defending Azeroth with her own army of vampiric elves while he is in the expedition in the Shadowlands. She makes a small army out of her closest devotees which are also raised as vampires, and that's how Belfs gain some Sun'Layn customizations and lore.

    Alternatively, the Dark Rangers can be added as customizations instead, since they are already in the game! Simple and effective and perfectly viable. I have no issue with either of these. Red shiny eyes and pale skin, and ofc available mogs to look like them.

    As for the Void Elves, a few unique hairstyles and hair colours such as white (draenei white), blonde (x1 shade), void blonde (a shade with two dark blue shiny highlights to indicate a void corruption and make them unique and really cool), black, and a pastel pink because it would look real cute. Also tattoos like Alleria's to be made available. And with void elf and high elf cities, I have no issue whether it is in Telogrus or somewere else (although Telogrus would probably be a great opportunity for a new and unique expanded void zone with a high elf city in it) , and night elves building their own home either along with the Nightborne in Suramar and share different sections of Suramar with Nightborne, or build their city elsewhere, both sound fine.
    I would kill to get some really cool new vampire features. I already believe that the DK undead skins should be made available to all blood elf classes, so you can model a darkfallen, especially if they give red eyes, same with the Fel elf, take some of those DH tones, and maybe 1 or 2 of the horns, and make them available to all, and you can be a fel elf mage or fel elf rogue or warlock.

    But it would bee so cool if blood elves had some cool facial transofmration option and could go all vampire, but that would feel more like an allied race/sub race than a customisation, but I'd love to see how they'd fit a blood elf to be a v

  15. #23375
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Nope, Night Elves have to lose their lands, but they will gain Suramar and Silvermoon. They just won't have the nice extra things that go with them.


    And the Night Elves would be removed from Hyjal, it doesn't matter how it works in the lore, but they must be removed because the Horde has been removed from the Eastern Kingdoms and the Broken Isles. I'm sorry, but nelfs must lose Kalimdor. From the top of Hyjal right down to Feralas.
    The Alliance must be given a lot of downs and if you want elf stuff, then you sacrifice your elf stuff as well. Nelfs must be brought down and out of Kalimdor.


    The alliance already has the East and the Broken Isles, what more do you want? You have to give up night elf lands. It's required and necessary and you clearly don't like it, but you might like what the night elves do in Suramar...it's just none of their future lore will involve Kalimdor at all. Kalimdor fully belongs to the Horde as well as all the old nelf locations. Lor'themar, Thalyssra and acting ruler, Dark Ranger Velonara will be given those lands, but obviously the majority of the elf land will go to Lor'themar and Thalyssra.
    Felo'Thalas could be a great questing location, driving the last remnants of the nelfs out as well as any demons and satyr. Obviously, the Horde keeps the Sunwell as the Void Elves are too dangerous so the Magisters of Quel'Thalas teleport it and the Magister's Terrace to Felo'Thalas and their new city is expanded. Zorum Strand to Astrannar would make for a great new Blood Elf City, with their blood elf tapestries, both the main ones and those of the blood knight order. Maybe even a Sunfury one or two.
    Eldre'Thalas and Feralas would make a great introduction for new Blood Elf and Nightborne players, where they are directed to certain people depending on the class (obviously, DK's, Monks and DH's aren't involved in this.)
    Can't you see how great this will be for Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei or do you not care and do you expect to bully blood elf and nightborne fans and bully us into silence as you try and ruin our favorite races because your still salty that all the alliance is, is Humans and their pets?


    My suggestions are of very good reason. You just don't like them because they involve nelfs being removed from Kalimdor, which they must be. You don't like it, but it's tough. Kalimdor BELONGS to the Horde, from top to bottom, in relation to the Alliance claiming both the Broken Isles and the Eastern Kingdoms.


    I will keep saying that nelfs must be defeated on Kalimdor and brought low, but they will have Suramar, so it's fair.


    Perhaps you need to take a step back, as you seem too warped up in the ideas of the ridiculous nature. Stop being salty and move on. You might be better for it. Forget WoW and the Night Elves. You'll be better for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Nope, Night Elves have to lose their lands, but they will gain Suramar and Silvermoon. They just won't have the nice extra things that go with them.


    And the Night Elves would be removed from Hyjal, it doesn't matter how it works in the lore, but they must be removed because the Horde has been removed from the Eastern Kingdoms and the Broken Isles. I'm sorry, but nelfs must lose Kalimdor. From the top of Hyjal right down to Feralas.
    The Alliance must be given a lot of downs and if you want elf stuff, then you sacrifice your elf stuff as well. Nelfs must be brought down and out of Kalimdor.


    The alliance already has the East and the Broken Isles, what more do you want? You have to give up night elf lands. It's required and necessary and you clearly don't like it, but you might like what the night elves do in Suramar...it's just none of their future lore will involve Kalimdor at all. Kalimdor fully belongs to the Horde as well as all the old nelf locations. Lor'themar, Thalyssra and acting ruler, Dark Ranger Velonara will be given those lands, but obviously the majority of the elf land will go to Lor'themar and Thalyssra.
    Felo'Thalas could be a great questing location, driving the last remnants of the nelfs out as well as any demons and satyr. Obviously, the Horde keeps the Sunwell as the Void Elves are too dangerous so the Magisters of Quel'Thalas teleport it and the Magister's Terrace to Felo'Thalas and their new city is expanded. Zorum Strand to Astrannar would make for a great new Blood Elf City, with their blood elf tapestries, both the main ones and those of the blood knight order. Maybe even a Sunfury one or two.
    Eldre'Thalas and Feralas would make a great introduction for new Blood Elf and Nightborne players, where they are directed to certain people depending on the class (obviously, DK's, Monks and DH's aren't involved in this.)
    Can't you see how great this will be for Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei or do you not care and do you expect to bully blood elf and nightborne fans and bully us into silence as you try and ruin our favorite races because your still salty that all the alliance is, is Humans and their pets?


    My suggestions are of very good reason. You just don't like them because they involve nelfs being removed from Kalimdor, which they must be. You don't like it, but it's tough. Kalimdor BELONGS to the Horde, from top to bottom, in relation to the Alliance claiming both the Broken Isles and the Eastern Kingdoms.


    I will keep saying that nelfs must be defeated on Kalimdor and brought low, but they will have Suramar, so it's fair.


    Perhaps you need to take a step back, as you seem too warped up in the ideas of the ridiculous nature. Stop being salty and move on. You might be better for it. Forget WoW and the Night Elves. You'll be better for it.

    Honey, I just want the Alliance made whole again, and being a faction I can be excited about. I don't hate the blood elves and don't want them destroyed, I want the horde improved too. What I have proposed both factions come off better.


    Blood elves may go through a tough time in the narrative, but they come off better, they're not the only ones, orcs, trolls, goblins, forsaken all see improvements. And off course so do the alliance races, high elves, night elves, draenei, dwarves, etc.


    There are some major core problems with things the way they are that will be fixed quite well by my suggestions.




    I still think it's better for the alliance to be the faction for the high elves and night elves. I agree blood elves on the horde has messed things up a bit, made the factions feel too similar, and the reason for the horde's loss of identity and the alliance's general unappealing character, even to the devs.


    I feel putting the high elves there, and letting the night elves shine on there and not the horde will work. In order to do this the horde elves must lose those alliance aspects in them and be built into something cool but different. There is enough
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post


    I have read your whole post but will not quote the entire thing to save space. IIRC you are saying these things in reaction to ravenmoon's suggestions, not because this is actually what you wanted WoW to head towards. I think this pointless back and forth of attacks between you and ravenmoon should stop so we can actually have a constructive discussion. Because, frankly, what you both are requesting will not happen. Night elves will not claim Suramar and Void/High elves will not claim Quel'Thalas. And ofcourse the Alliance will not lose Ashenvale or the whole of Kalimdor. Why? Because this would be too much work for the devs just to satisfy high elf and blood elf fans. As simple as that. Waay too much work. And guess what. It would take WoW very far from where WoW is actually heading to since WOD. WoW is heading towards uniting the Horde and Alliance factions. With Baine, Thrall, Thalyssra and Jaina, Anduin, and the rest of the leaders (even Sylvanas seems to have no hate towards Anduin) it would be counter-productive to lead the factions to their primitive warfriendly state. Yes I know about the whole it's-world-of-warcraft arguement many like to state, but the game gets older and progresses and so does its story, and that is where it's heading to. I am a pro-faction unison advocate in fact, as this will solve many of the issues the faction imbalance causes atm (longer queue times, lack of sufficient hardcore or semi-hardcore guilds on Alliance).


    So I suggest you and ravenmoon try to find some common ground so this thread can move back to the official forums with fresh, VIABLE suggestions.


    In fact, I like ravenmoon's suggestion to include some Sun'Layn features for Blood elves, like perhaps sprouting vampiric wings in combat or something. They should also be given permanent vampire fangs to prove their anti-hero choice more. They would love that. Maybe even remove some of the blonde hair colours and leave two (they have 4 blonde shades, not high elfy at all eh?). Push them more towards that anti-hero route if the devs wish to maintain a separation of the factions, because atm all they have to suggest they are Horde are their green eyes option and their banner. So as result high elf hair colours and unique hairstyles will be added to Alliance, and Sun'layn wings (in combat) and fangs to Horde. The high elf characteristics cannot be completely removed from Horde, but the devs can definitely suggest a more demonic/vampiric approach to the playerbase, and alter the story in a manner which gives unique cities to the void/high elves and the night elves, and narrates the merge of Blood Elves into the Sun'Layn covenant and the addoption of demonic and vampiric features from them.

    It may be a lot of work, either way, but they need to do something big to fix this issue. I suspect it will only be feasible in a world revamp. then you can make huge scene of the high elves returning, and the kaldorei getting really powerful too.


    San'layn features and Illidari features become available to all blood elves too - afterall, you will be able to roleplay a fel elf and a dark fallen or san'layn elf, and they can be more than Death Knights and Demon hunters. There will be other features added to blood elves.


    The whole point is not to remove blood elves from the horde, but to remove high elves and night elves from the blood elf and the Nightborne. And this includes their assets, which is why they lose Quel'thalas and Suramar - because those cities and those people and their architecture, way of life, culture are very alliance themed, they are 100% High elf and 100 % night elf - that's all alliance. This is why they are losing it. The alliance are gaining this (instead of it being destroyed like Teldrassil was) because it will majorly boos the alliance, fans will get excited about the high elves returning, and the night elves rising up as a powerful group with all their racial strengths, both arcane and nature, martial and fel.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I meet nonsense request with nonsense request. I am perfectly willing to have a discussion, about Void/High Elves (since this is the thread for it) and discuss how they can be improved in the lore and in the features.


    My ideas about a new home for the Void Elves include 2 places. 1 being the city of Zin-Azshari. Now, this might seem ridiculous but Void Elves are risk takers. Why not claim the city of their ancestors and live in it. Create a void and arcane bubble that prevents them from drowning and develop Zin-Azshari into a City that works. It's poetic that the Void Elves will go and live in the city of their ancestors, plus Void Elf Mages and Warlocks would likely feel right at home.


    Or, the Void Elves and High Elves could move to the Allerian Stronghold and expand and develop that fortress into a functioning city. Claim Firewing Point as their own and if they do want some Blood Elf involvement, the Scryers can still operate as a neutral party between them and Quel'Thalas (which would still be Horde.)


    I don't think the Night Elves work in Zin-Azshari as they've been expanded and are Kalimdor focused, which is fine because ideas about developing Darkshore and Feralas for them, can be expanded.






    Some of these ideas could work, but I think the San'layn are just too close to the idea of Blood Elf Death Knights. Personally, I see the addition of Dark Ranger features to be better because Velonara still sees herself as a sin'dorei defender and it would be cool to develop that.


    With the Blood Elves and Nightborne staying in their regions (with these additions), I see no better time than to develop some Dark Ranger interaction. Quel/Sin'dorei Dark Rangers with the Silvermoon Farstriders and the Kaldorei Dark Rangers and the Nightborne Nighthunters developing a union...that's another thing, the Dark Ranger Kaldorei could move to Suramar as I'm sure Thalyssra would welcome them.
    DKs are undead elves, the concept is not limited to the DK class, and I think everyone would love to have the option to play an undead elf in other class roles. It doesn't change the DK class in any way, , seeing a DK elf can use normal blood elf tones, I don't see why the undead skin tones cannot be available to all blood elves to allow you to play a darkfallen undead elf, including red eyes.


    As for where Night elves work - night elves are a big race. A forest sentinel or druid wouldn't work in Zin'Azshari, but a Moon Priest, Moonguard, Highborne, Valewalker and ordinary civilian all would. A city isn't valid because all the aspects of the race can fit in it - ofc not, cities only work for some type of people, but every race will have one, and every race will have those who don't fit in the same habitat. Night elves can be restored to a much bigger vision race.


    I'm inclined to give void elves a complete city of their own, my thoughts include a sister city in the Ghostlands, where Deatholme use to be, but it could be on Telogrus rift, or somewhere lese in Azeroth., Crystal Song forest is another sight,


    There are so many options, it feels pointless getting too specific, because we don't make these decisions, but sometimes it's fun imagining where this group will go or that one.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  16. #23376
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Honey, I just want the Alliance made whole again, and being a faction I can be excited about. I don't hate the blood elves and don't want them destroyed, I want the horde improved too. What I have proposed both factions come off better.


    Blood elves may go through a tough time in the narrative, but they come off better, they're not the only ones, orcs, trolls, goblins, forsaken all see improvements. And off course so do the alliance races, high elves, night elves, draenei, dwarves, etc.


    There are some major core problems with things the way they are that will be fixed quite well by my suggestions.




    I still think it's better for the alliance to be the faction for the high elves and night elves. I agree blood elves on the horde has messed things up a bit, made the factions feel too similar, and the reason for the horde's loss of identity and the alliance's general unappealing character, even to the devs.


    I feel putting the high elves there, and letting the night elves shine on there and not the horde will work. In order to do this the horde elves must lose those alliance aspects in them and be built into something cool but different. There is enough



    It may be a lot of work, either way, but they need to do something big to fix this issue. I suspect it will only be feasible in a world revamp. then you can make huge scene of the high elves returning, and the kaldorei getting really powerful too.


    San'layn features and Illidari features become available to all blood elves too - afterall, you will be able to roleplay a fel elf and a dark fallen or san'layn elf, and they can be more than Death Knights and Demon hunters. There will be other features added to blood elves.


    The whole point is not to remove blood elves from the horde, but to remove high elves and night elves from the blood elf and the Nightborne. And this includes their assets, which is why they lose Quel'thalas and Suramar - because those cities and those people and their architecture, way of life, culture are very alliance themed, they are 100% High elf and 100 % night elf - that's all alliance. This is why they are losing it. The alliance are gaining this (instead of it being destroyed like Teldrassil was) because it will majorly boos the alliance, fans will get excited about the high elves returning, and the night elves rising up as a powerful group with all their racial strengths, both arcane and nature, martial and fel.



    DKs are undead elves, the concept is not limited to the DK class, and I think everyone would love to have the option to play an undead elf in other class roles. It doesn't change the DK class in any way, , seeing a DK elf can use normal blood elf tones, I don't see why the undead skin tones cannot be available to all blood elves to allow you to play a darkfallen undead elf, including red eyes.


    As for where Night elves work - night elves are a big race. A forest sentinel or druid wouldn't work in Zin'Azshari, but a Moon Priest, Moonguard, Highborne, Valewalker and ordinary civilian all would. A city isn't valid because all the aspects of the race can fit in it - ofc not, cities only work for some type of people, but every race will have one, and every race will have those who don't fit in the same habitat. Night elves can be restored to a much bigger vision race.


    I'm inclined to give void elves a complete city of their own, my thoughts include a sister city in the Ghostlands, where Deatholme use to be, but it could be on Telogrus rift, or somewhere lese in Azeroth., Crystal Song forest is another sight,


    There are so many options, it feels pointless getting too specific, because we don't make these decisions, but sometimes it's fun imagining where this group will go or that one.
    You guys realise that most players won't care as long as they continue to be able to play their cool models right?

    Alliance were far more enthusiastic over void elves despite the backlash - this does highlight that high elves are extremely desired by alliance fans. So Ravenmoon is correct that it most likely will boost the alliance...

    But, most horde players don't care about whether Blood elves have Silvermoon or Nightborne have Suramar, they just want a model, and Nightborne were not half as popular on the horde as void elves are, secondly horde players talk far far less about Nightborne than alliance players talk about Nightborne or talk about void elves or talk about High elves - which means the elven conversation is skewed heavily towards the alliance playerbase. But the playerbase percentage that cares is a lot smaller than you think.

    So if the Belves lose Quel'thalas and Suramar, only a small fraction of the horde will be bothered by it, they're just as likely to be pissed off as run to play the alliance. So at most you will get half of that number.

  17. #23377
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    You guys realise that most players won't care as long as they continue to be able to play their cool models right?

    Alliance were far more enthusiastic over void elves despite the backlash - this does highlight that high elves are extremely desired by alliance fans. So Ravenmoon is correct that it most likely will boost the alliance...

    But, most horde players don't care about whether Blood elves have Silvermoon or Nightborne have Suramar, they just want a model, and Nightborne were not half as popular on the horde as void elves are, secondly horde players talk far far less about Nightborne than alliance players talk about Nightborne or talk about void elves or talk about High elves - which means the elven conversation is skewed heavily towards the alliance playerbase. But the playerbase percentage that cares is a lot smaller than you think.

    So if the Belves lose Quel'thalas and Suramar, only a small fraction of the horde will be bothered by it, they're just as likely to be pissed off as run to play the alliance. So at most you will get half of that number.
    There were many people on the alliance pissed off at blood elves going horde, but despite that many did switch, including some of those who were quite pissed off.

    The high elf stuff on the alliance will draw hordies back to the alliance, especially if blizzard make it look good. Which is why stealth high elves via void elf customisations is not going to help much.

    The alliance problem is more than customisation models, as well as it is more than social trends or racials.

    It's IMAGE. Image and reputation, popularity, you improve these by making the alliance quite the show and spectacle that people wanna go there. This is why the High elves need to return in style, and the night elves need to be shown off to the level their early lore presented them as , this powerful advanced original elf race, now with over 10,000 years of mastery and advanced knowledge in the arcane, nature, fel and divine knowledge. So far to date, the various night elven orders have acted very independently of each other, the druids, the great nature wielders have spent ages in the emerald dream and dedicated to nature, oblivious to anything else except the great war. it has been the Priesthood that has defended the northern Kalimdor race's community and and guided its culture entirely by themselves. For 10,000 years they were completely estranged from their arcane wielding kin who operated as separate societies and none worked with the great fel masters that hunted demons. What happens when they all start working together now instead of with suspicion? this is where blizzard now writes them up, they have immortality to regain, a well of eternity to use, a world tree also - what if a purified Nightwell is restored to a Starwell and Shaladrassil fully healed is also used. In addition to the font of Elune in the recovered cathedral and the Night warrior enhancements of the Blackmoon sect? Now the night elves could be really exciting and be shown off.

    It's stuff like that they need to do - people love that shit, look how popular Suramar was, that's night elf stuff, give that back to the alliance in style, and you will make the alliance desirable again...but how do you expect the alliance to gain numbers if it's nicest assets like it's night elven ancient city and their community are given to the horde? Well fix it in style.. the alliance can't have Nightborne, but they can have a night elf city and if the Nightborne in it turn back into night elf thanks to the Arcan'dor that is supposed to be healing them, then problem solved.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  18. #23378
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Honey, I just want the Alliance made whole again, and being a faction I can be excited about. I don't hate the blood elves and don't want them destroyed, I want the horde improved too. What I have proposed both factions come off better.


    Blood elves may go through a tough time in the narrative, but they come off better, they're not the only ones, orcs, trolls, goblins, forsaken all see improvements. And off course so do the alliance races, high elves, night elves, draenei, dwarves, etc.


    There are some major core problems with things the way they are that will be fixed quite well by my suggestions.




    I still think it's better for the alliance to be the faction for the high elves and night elves. I agree blood elves on the horde has messed things up a bit, made the factions feel too similar, and the reason for the horde's loss of identity and the alliance's general unappealing character, even to the devs.


    I feel putting the high elves there, and letting the night elves shine on there and not the horde will work. In order to do this the horde elves must lose those alliance aspects in them and be built into something cool but different. There is enough



    It may be a lot of work, either way, but they need to do something big to fix this issue. I suspect it will only be feasible in a world revamp. then you can make huge scene of the high elves returning, and the kaldorei getting really powerful too.


    San'layn features and Illidari features become available to all blood elves too - afterall, you will be able to roleplay a fel elf and a dark fallen or san'layn elf, and they can be more than Death Knights and Demon hunters. There will be other features added to blood elves.


    The whole point is not to remove blood elves from the horde, but to remove high elves and night elves from the blood elf and the Nightborne. And this includes their assets, which is why they lose Quel'thalas and Suramar - because those cities and those people and their architecture, way of life, culture are very alliance themed, they are 100% High elf and 100 % night elf - that's all alliance. This is why they are losing it. The alliance are gaining this (instead of it being destroyed like Teldrassil was) because it will majorly boos the alliance, fans will get excited about the high elves returning, and the night elves rising up as a powerful group with all their racial strengths, both arcane and nature, martial and fel.
    What the Alliance wants does not come at the expense of the Horde elves losing out. It's quite simple that if Alliance gets the Eastern Kingdoms & the Broken Isles, then I'm sorry, but Horde gets Kalimdor. Nelfs are removed from Kalimdor once again and the Forsaken, Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei move in.

    If you want something that's a Horde asset, then Horde takes an Alliance asset and that asset will be night elf lands and Kalimdor.

    Or, Nelfs and Velfs won't be getting Suramar or Silvermoon, but instead, they will be developed in ways that are different from Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei. You just have to wait for that update...but waiting you will, as we Blood Elf fans have been waiting 14 years for an updated Quel'Thalas (for Horde players) and that hasn't happened, so again - you will have just have to wait for said update. Blood Elves and Nightborne won't be going anywhere or be changed to suit alliance fans. Blizzard haven't done this and they aren't willing to start now.

    Perhaps take a leaf out of Eleann's book and come up with suggestions that actually work and don't robbing from the other faction.
    A phased Zin-Azshari for the Ren'dorei as they are the elves that suit that city the most. They blend Arcane and Void together and that's all Zin-Azshari saw for 10,000 years.
    Restored Darkshore and Feralas for Night Elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    The high elf stuff on the alliance will draw hordies back to the alliance, especially if blizzard make it look good. Which is why stealth high elves via void elf customisations is not going to help much.
    Alliance problem is the "Humans and Pals" story writing. Alliance story writers only know how to write humans. Look at the Alliance heroes in Oribos. They are all Humans and we're going off to try and save a Human.
    You don't want to admit that problem because you want to push blame onto the Horde. It's the Horde faction's fault. It's the Horde Elves that are to blame when it's the writers for the Alliance who can't think of anything beyond "Humans and their pets."

    Who was it who needed lecturing on how to fight in a forest? Oh, it was Tyrande and it was Varian who lectured her.
    Who aren't capable of placing magical wards down to detect rogues in Darnassus? The Shen'dralar as it was Jaina Proudmoore who did it.
    Who went to ask an 18 year old Human if they could go and attack Darkshore? Tyrande asking Anduin, who only then said "to hell with you."

    This is your problem. Plus the Male Human/Female Thalassian Elf...relationships.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    It's stuff like that they need to do - people love that shit, look how popular Suramar was, that's night elf stuff, give that back to the alliance in style, and you will make the alliance desirable again...but how do you expect the alliance to gain numbers if it's nicest assets like it's night elven ancient city and their community are given to the horde? Well fix it in style.. the alliance can't have Nightborne, but they can have a night elf city and if the Nightborne in it turn back into night elf thanks to the Arcan'dor that is supposed to be healing them, then problem solved.
    That's you not knowing Nightborne lore.
    The Arcan'dor does not return Nightborne to Night Elves. It's not that powerful. The Highborne of Suramar were ingesting a Titan Artifact. That source of magical power goes way beyond what nelf druid and nightborne mages can conjure.

    The Arcan'dor can heal the Nightborne, from a Nightfallen state. It cannot undo the effects of the Eye of Aman'thul. A titan artifact will always hold it's effects, regardless of what any night elf hermit tries to do.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-23 at 06:39 PM.

  19. #23379
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    I would kill to get some really cool new vampire features. I already believe that the DK undead skins should be made available to all blood elf classes, so you can model a darkfallen, especially if they give red eyes, same with the Fel elf, take some of those DH tones, and maybe 1 or 2 of the horns, and make them available to all
    That is great. We should become one voice and suggest ideas for High elven and Void features for Void Elves, and Vampiric and Dark ranger features for Blood Elves. For the devs to make a nice story to get a city for Void Elves, either in Telogrus or Allerian Stronghold I'd suggest (not too fond of the underwater setting of zin'aszhari) and either Suramar in share with Nightborne or a unique city for Night elves.

  20. #23380
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    That is great. We should become one voice and suggest ideas for High elven and Void features for Void Elves, and Vampiric and Dark ranger features for Blood Elves. For the devs to make a nice story to get a city for Void Elves, either in Telogrus or Allerian Stronghold I'd suggest (not too fond of the underwater setting of zin'aszhari) and either Suramar in share with Nightborne or a unique city for Night elves.
    I think, if we're looking at a "void" expansion, then Alliance and Horde should come from separate locations.
    I'd rather not have Suramar shared with the Night Elves, as the current native has them at Hyjal - it would better serve the story from BFA, if they remained on Kalimdor and rebuilt that which they lost.

    Arathi and Darkshore should see this treatment from the Humans and Night Elves.

    For the Alliance, I'd either say the Telgrous City (if it's big enough - at this stage, it's a bunch of floating rocks) or the Allerian Stronghold or Zin-Azshari. If Blizzard want everyone to leave to fight the void from Azeroth, then Zin-Azshari is perhaps, the viable option.
    For the Horde, I'd suggest either Orgrimmar (although that might be too basic) or Suramar.

    Or, they could do typical Blizzard fashion and have everyone leave to fight the void from Stormwind and Orgrimmar.

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