Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

This is why I don't understand Blizzard's thinking. If you're going to put HE on the Horde(renamed BE), why suddenly say 'yeah, there are HE on Alliance' and dangle them enticingly at many opportunities? Of course people are going to ask: 'why can't we play as them?' Blizzard should have made it clear that all HE joined the Horde, but here we are. I wonder how the story would have been different.

Exactly, specially when War3 did make it sound like that. All that vanilla had to do was to not add major High Elf settlements (Quel'danil and Quel'lithien) or making them under BE control, and then just start BC saying that most elves returned to Quel'thalas to help rebuild and so on.

Instead, they made clear every expansion that there was a significant number of High Elves left, a lot of them on the alliance; which brings us to the Silver Covenant, which was introduced on WotLK, giving HE's their own organization, and then continuing to use that group as part of alliance stories, and BE enemies.

[Edward Wu]

I just want to play an Alliance High Elf Paladin and I'm dumbfounded why Blizzard is so bullheaded about not caving in. It would likely only help the game and maybe even go a long way in fixing the AvH imbalance if Alliance got true High Elves.

At this point just make them into a full-fledged race in a future expansion. I'm done trying to eke out scraps for the Velves.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

You see it as dangling in your face. I see it as the playable high elves are horde but for lore flavor there is an npc faction of the same race on the alliance side that is not meant to be playable. Simple as that it happens.

Just like how horde has my human pirates, alliance fought with grim totem, or the goblin rogue in SI 7. It happens, doesn't entitle players to that playable race to the opposite faction.

You really are conflating "entitlement" with just pointing out how noticeable the presence of High Elves is on the alliance. People are just correctly pointing out how out of the norm High Elves are as a "flavor npc faction" and how their continued presence does lead to the question as to why aren't they a playable race. But you call noticing that "entitlement", because you see picking up something obvious and wishing it addressed or expanded as nothing more than whining.

That's just weird man.

[FossilFree]

I agree on principle, but a big deal with Blood Elves is that they, ultimately, don't feel like a neutral race or faction; alongside High Elves and Void Elves, they really feel more like a people that has split in a major axis where culture and ideology continues to differ.

Honestly I could have seen it before Void Elves being introduced, with High Elves and Blood Elves still being ostensibly the same race so there was leeway. But with the introduction of Void Elves the ends of the spectrum have just gotten so far away the game itself presents them as two different races with an aesthetic overlap.

And I think that serves to in universe represent the idea of political differences quite well and with a lot of potential, but in terms of gameplay, I do think it makes us move past the idea of Blood Elves as a neutral race a la pandaren, like you can't undo that.

So in that way, it just feels more likely for the remaining alliance High Elves to align politically and culturally with the Void Elves and/or end up creating half elves with humans. And much like you can't technically play as a gilnean human, just a worgen, high elves would end up in that in between, with you maybe being able to play a high elf that accepts to use void *shrug*



I do support the idea of mercenary mode tho, but that's less of a choose your faction and more of a faction agnostic type of play in my mind; like you can go full independent, but as a mercenary, you will be seen as untrustworthy by both sides (PvP oriented) and only in for the money, or unconcerned by faction wars and only worried about major threats (PvE oriented)

So yeah, I like the idea of Mercenary Mode, but that feels different than the notion of racial groups *choosing* a faction a la pandaren, or the thalassian divide, or the kul tiran privateers. That's specifically about faction, Mercenary Mode IMO is faction agnostic; it literally disregards it.

Yea, I think the Void Elf angle basically accomplishes neutrality for them without having to go the Pandaren route. All they need now is a few more hair colors, ones without some shade of blue or purple. They could add more Blood Elf ones, but I like the idea of giving them new ones that are separate. The desaturated colors we've seen posted here many times would do nicely. I also think pink and starcursed colors would be really cool though.

Mercenary mode would be best if it was like how ESO does their all races on all factions store purchase. You could either have them do a mercenary faction quest line right at level 1, or maybe wait till level 10 or so like Pandaren then choose to defect. The first option would be easier, the second more lore appropriate.

[Varx]

You really are conflating "entitlement" with just pointing out how noticeable the presence of High Elves is on the alliance. People are just correctly pointing out how out of the norm High Elves are as a "flavor npc faction" and how their continued presence does lead to the question as to why aren't they a playable race. But you call noticing that "entitlement", because you see picking up something obvious and wishing it addressed or expanded as nothing more than whining.

That's just weird man.

Who cares how much of a presence they had during wrath onwards. Blood elves were introduce in TBC as a Horde race while there still being a very small group of alliance elves clinging to old alliances from w2 for lore reasons, not to mock alliance players.

For w/e reason they decided to empower the silver covenant as a major force. Perhaps to herald the return of alleria? Who knows.

But that still doesn't change the fact that belves were the new major HORDE race.

"So just give them new model" why? There is no lore justification why helves would physically look different from belves. Even KT humans have lore reasons why they look different, though weak ass reasons I'll admit, but reasons non the less.

Imagine if the horde KT humans pirates got a bigger role in 10.0. you think the horde should then get them playable too?

This is why the alliance got velves out of thin air despite having the silver covenant up and ready for allied racification.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Yea, I think the Void Elf angle basically accomplishes neutrality for them without having to go the Pandaren route. All they need now is a few more hair colors, ones without some shade of blue or purple. They could add more Blood Elf ones, but I like the idea of giving them new ones that are separate. The desaturated colors we've seen posted here many times would do nicely. I also think pink and starcursed colors would be really cool though.

Basically; an actually good possibility having VE and BE separated as two different races, is that they can delve into an aesthetic differentiation even while there is biological overlap. Markings, decorations, hair styles and even hair colors, all can be different because of a cultural context. Indeed, I quite like the idea of Void Elves having less saturated hair colors overall -such as, more ressembling to the Kul Tirans ones as I have posted before- to signify that their separation to the Sunwell does affect them even if it is in that small measure. And that's not even considering the possibility of more void colors like the "starcursed" options

Mercenary mode would be best if it was like how ESO does their all races on all factions store purchase. You could either have them do a mercenary faction quest line right at level 1, or maybe wait till level 10 or so like Pandaren then choose to defect. The first option would be easier, the second more lore appropriate.

I think either a Mercenary Mode where you can basically play in a faction agnostic way or even an outright Defection Mode could work. Mercenary -as in a true neutral/independent- where you are locked out of doing faction specific PvE content would work for all races -and basically you'd be a true mercenary on PvP- A Defector mode, as in, completely switching factions, I would also like, but I feel should have some limitations -maybe per account or realm, or even race-

- - - Updated - - -

Who cares how much of a presence they had during wrath onwards.

Probably all the people that have been asking about High Elves. It's relevant to the world and the lore. It shouldn't be shocking that other people care about things different than you.

But that still doesn't change the fact that belves were the new major HORDE race.

It doesn't, and if you were paying attention, you would know that. But seems you are unable to understand the concept that some people would like to see the ideological distinction between HE and BE to be explored in a playable way. And you might disagree with how interesting that is, but that fact that you don't seem to get it as per the "Well BE's are a HORDE race" just points out that you don't seem to grasp the issue, no matter for how long and how many different ways you are told.

I am not asking you to agree, but it's facepalm worthy that you still don't get the issues.

"So just give them new model" why? There is no lore justification why helves would physically look different from belves. Even KT humans have lore reasons why they look different, though weak ass reasons I'll admit, but reasons non the less.

Most pro HE people would have been fine with the same model, as most people are happy with the VE options to a degree; because they allow to play a fantasy that's already present in the lore. Changing the HE to have a unique model -a different stance, such as Nightborne, since that's a behavioral, not biological change- was mostly so BE people would stop complaining we just wanted their model. It was not a necessity by any means, but a way to meet detractors halfway, who still refused.

Imagine if the horde KT humans pirates got a bigger role in 10.0. you think the horde should then get them playable too?

Yes.

This is why the alliance got velves out of thin air despite having the silver covenant up and ready for allied racification.

And it was clearly a controversial decision that many people, including me, think was the wrong one. Creating a group out of thin air to avoid fulfilling a long standing request was beyond any intentional, detracting to their own lore and world building; over 3 years since their introduction, Void Elves remain the least developed AR to an hilarious degree.

[Varx]

Basically; an actually good possibility having VE and BE separated as two different races, is that they can delve into an aesthetic differentiation even while there is biological overlap. Markings, decorations, hair styles and even hair colors, all can be different because of a cultural context. Indeed, I quite like the idea of Void Elves having less saturated hair colors overall -such as, more ressembling to the Kul Tirans ones as I have posted before- to signify that their separation to the Sunwell does affect them even if it is in that small measure. And that's not even considering the possibility of more void colors like the "starcursed" options



I think either a Mercenary Mode where you can basically play in a faction agnostic way or even an outright Defection Mode could work. Mercenary -as in a true neutral/independent- where you are locked out of doing faction specific PvE content would work for all races -and basically you'd be a true mercenary on PvP- A Defector mode, as in, completely switching factions, I would also like, but I feel should have some limitations -maybe per account or realm, or even race-

- - - Updated - - -



Probably all the people that have been asking about High Elves. It's relevant to the world and the lore. It shouldn't be shocking that other people care about things different than you.



It doesn't, and if you were paying attention, you would know that. But seems you are unable to understand the concept that some people would like to see the ideological distinction between HE and BE to be explored in a playable way. And you might disagree with how interesting that is, but that fact that you don't seem to get it as per the "Well BE's are a HORDE race" just points out that you don't seem to grasp the issue, no matter for how long and how many different ways you are told.

I am not asking you to agree, but it's facepalm worthy that you still don't get the issues.



Most pro HE people would have been fine with the same model, as most people are happy with the VE options to a degree; because they allow to play a fantasy that's already present in the lore. Changing the HE to have a unique model -a different stance, such as Nightborne, since that's a behavioral, not biological change- was mostly so BE people would stop complaining we just wanted their model. It was not a necessity by any means, but a way to meet detractors halfway, who still refused.



Yes.



And it was clearly a controversial decision that many people, including me, think was the wrong one. Creating a group out of thin air to avoid fulfilling a long standing request was beyond any intentional, detracting to their own lore and world building; over 3 years since their introduction, Void Elves remain the least developed AR to an hilarious degree.

I get it your stance. I'm just saying it's unrealistic in practice. If it wasn't we'd have many more playable options as players and void elves never would have existed. Clearly blizzard agrees.

[shoc]

Just because this thread exists I think Blizzard should go out of their way not to make any more changes to the Void Elves or Blood Elves. It sets a horrible precedent that whinging for years on a fan forum can somehow influence game decision outcomes. If we empower players in this way then its GG no RE, they will not be able to repack the pandoras box of shit they will have unleashed.

[Kyriani]

Just because this thread exists I think Blizzard should go out of their way not to make any more changes to the Void Elves or Blood Elves. It sets a horrible precedent that whinging for years on a fan forum can somehow influence game decision outcomes. If we empower players in this way then its GG no RE, they will not be able to repack the pandoras box of shit they will have unleashed.

You're basically saying that Blizzard should never make changes based on customer feedback...

[shoc]

You're basically saying that Blizzard should never make changes based on customer feedback...

No, just the excessively low quality ones like "make whiter elves"

[Kyriani]

No, just the excessively low quality ones like "make whiter elves"

That's subjective... and rather insulting considering the breadth of skin tones made available, and the fact that those asking for alliance high eves were asking for a large range of skin tones, including darker ones, not just "white".

My own Warlock took advantage of that and she looks absolutely stunning IMO.



But basically you've just said "Blizzard should never make changes based on customer feedback if I don't like those changes". You may not think that's what you said, but it is.

[FossilFree]

No, just the excessively low quality ones like "make whiter elves"

I've never seen any pro HE people asking for "whiter elves." I have seen a lot of anti HE people begging for blue eyes (which they got) and complaining about BE getting dark skin tones though. While this very thread was the one asking for dark skin High Elves so they could RP the water tribe from Avatar.

Seems like a whole lot of projecting going on tbh.

[Varx]

The bare minimum effort to fix Void Elves and get me to shut up would be:

- Give them the hairstyles and colours from Blood Elves, or at lest the colours along with some unique new hair styles that look more normal.

What would make me really excited to play them:

- Short ears carried over from Blood Elves.
- War paints or tattoos.

God tier changes:

- Tweak their racials so they're less caster-focused.
- Make them more "Cyberpunk" with shaved sides and stuff.

The only new options for velves should be more voidy options to emphasize that they're VOID elves and I guess Alleria like Tattoos. Stop asking for belf options, belves are belves velves are velves, stop bluring the lines more, they're not Pandarens.



For example...

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I get it your stance. I'm just saying it's unrealistic in practice. If it wasn't we'd have many more playable options as players and void elves never would have existed. Clearly blizzard agrees.

Unrealistic? Hardly when we are like a hair color away from a suitable playable High Elf fantasy. The limits of the game are always evolving, I would not really call the possibility of a more comprehensive HE fantasy through VE "unrealistic."

High Elves as their own Allied Race, Silvermoon returning to the Alliance, Void Elf Paladins; those feel more unrealistic than more natural colors on VEs.

- - - Updated - - -

Just because this thread exists I think Blizzard should go out of their way not to make any more changes to the Void Elves or Blood Elves. It sets a horrible precedent that whinging for years on a fan forum can somehow influence game decision outcomes. If we empower players in this way then its GG no RE, they will not be able to repack the pandoras box of shit they will have unleashed.

It's stunning how you can both be so dismissive of player feedback at the same time you do some pearl chuckling.

- - - Updated - - -

That's subjective... and rather insulting considering the breadth of skin tones made available, and the fact that those asking for alliance high eves were asking for a large range of skin tones, including darker ones, not just "white".

My own Warlock took advantage of that and she looks absolutely stunning IMO.



But basically you've just said "Blizzard should never make changes based on customer feedback if I don't like those changes". You may not think that's what you said, but it is.

The whole logical loop these people good into "customer feedback is actually bad and should not be heard" is actually hilarious.

Also the "wah, you just want High Elves to be white" is just so inaccurate -funny mayhaps if it wasn't rooted in racism- when many of us that have been vocal about HE's have also been vocal about dark skinned elves since waaaay before they were a customization option.

But that would go against the narrative that High Elf Fans are just racist whiners that want blonde elves

[Varx]

Unrealistic? Hardly when we are like a hair color away from a suitable playable High Elf fantasy. The limits of the game are always evolving, I would not really call the possibility of a more comprehensive HE fantasy through VE "unrealistic."

I'm not just talking about belf options for velves. I'm talking about what you essentially said that if it exists in a substantial manner in the lore then it should be made available to players. You even agreed that if KT pirates got a bigger role then they should be made available to horde players.

Using that logic, there are MANY things in the lore that would suddenly be made possible to players. Alliance goblins, alliance tauren, Horde KT, actual silver covenant elves, big buff trolls, skinny kt humans, normal kt humans, normal gilneans, etc, etc. Which again is unrealistic, and dilutes faction identity for players, crossing races not over the top customization options.

As for velves, they don't need more belf options, they got enough with skin tones. What they need is more voidy options like what I just posted a few posts back, not be turned into the elf version of pandarens.

The fact that velves even exist to begin with instead of a silver covenant AR, when it was nice and ready and established, only proves my point.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I'm not just talking about belf options for velves. I'm talking about what you essentially said that if it exists in a substantial manner in the lore then it should be made available to players. You even agreed that if KT pirates got a bigger role then they should be made available to horde players.

Something that needs to be cleared out first; none of these things "should" be. The point is that I believe it would be better, but are not essential; the game is not "literally unplayable", it just would be better. Better in terms of reflecting the richness of the world, better in terms of giving players more choice.

Using that logic, there are MANY things in the lore that would suddenly be made possible to players. Alliance goblins, alliance tauren, Horde KT, actual silver covenant elves, big buff trolls, skinny kt humans, normal kt humans, normal gilneans, etc, etc. Which again is unrealistic, and dilutes faction identity for players, crossing races not over the top customization options.

See? You immediately take things to the extreme, the "sky it's falling attitude" as if everything is just a slippery slope that leads to the worst case scenario- "Oh we can't have these few things that make sense because then we should do EVERYTHING" like, stop. That's not how any of this works.

Then you circle back again with the "faction identity is gonna be dilluted", and yet again I contest the idea that faction identity should be idealized and defined by aesthetics instead of something actually deeper. Like ideology.

As for velves, they don't need more belf options, they got enough with skin tones. What they need is more voidy options like what I just posted a few posts back, not be turned into the elf version of pandarens.

The fact that velves even exist to begin with instead of a silver covenant AR, when it was nice and ready and established, only proves my point.

I think "supports my argument" is what you mean. You can't prove an opinion on aesthetic choice, even one that's ostensibly the same than the developers hold for now. The whole *point* of the issue is that most Pro HE people disagree with the notion that there should be an strict faction aesthetic dichotomy, that decision like crating the VE's as a blatant form of enforced differentiation ended up damaging the lore, in an attempt to maintain that strict aesthetic segregation.

I contest the whole idea that aesthetic dichotomy is desired or needed, and that is my opinion, because it's literally just an arbitrary choice either way. Aesthetic segregation is easier, I think everyone gets that; my issue will always be that its reductive nature disallows a more complex understanding of what faction identity could be. It's simplistic, and I really think the game has evolved beyond the need -and it's actually hindered- buy such constraints.

I disagree aesthetic dichotomy is good for the game, that doesn't mean I think the game doesn't work if it keeps doing it. But I do think it's an hollistic hindrance to the setting as a whole.

[FlubberPuddy]

I'm not just talking about belf options for velves. I'm talking about what you essentially said that if it exists in a substantial manner in the lore then it should be made available to players. You even agreed that if KT pirates got a bigger role then they should be made available to horde players.

Using that logic, there are MANY things in the lore that would suddenly be made possible to players. Alliance goblins, alliance tauren, Horde KT, actual silver covenant elves, big buff trolls, skinny kt humans, normal kt humans, normal gilneans, etc, etc. Which again is unrealistic, and dilutes faction identity for players, crossing races not over the top customization options.

You're using old logic now (it's old because High Elf aesthetic is now playable on Alliance per the Blizzard post, and in-game customizations available now), but let's entertain it still for a moment.

Your 'logic' isn't actually logical because no NPC group like Alliance High Elves have had the same level of involvement in the greater factions' (Alliance/Horde) stories like AHE did. It wasn't simply one-off localized quests, or a rare one off NPC of opposite faction race (your SI goblin example you keep using which is terrible).

No NPC group on Horde are the equivalent of what Alliance had with their High Elves. Full stop.

And to end this point, it's moot now anyway due to the customizations in-game now.

As for velves, they don't need more belf options, they got enough with skin tones. What they need is more voidy options like what I just posted a few posts back, not be turned into the elf version of pandarens.

They will more than likely get more of both, seeing as player customizations are always going to be a thing and clearly as we've been seeing they consider it worthy enough to be expansion level additions. So, give enough expansions and Void Elves will 99% get more Void and High Elven aesthetics.

You make it sound like the next round of customization is the last one, which it won't be at all. I also haven't been seeing you say Blood Elves don't need anymore customization options considering they continue to have the most customization options up there with Humans.[/QUOTE]

The fact that velves even exist to begin with instead of a silver covenant AR, when it was nice and ready and established, only proves my point.

And as I said in my earlier point, the fact that Alliance did get High Elf aesthetics makes this a moot point.

Your 'arguments' are strange because it comes off as you not realizing that Alliance has High Elven aesthetics now and therefore it's valid to ask for more of them.

Just like any other fan player of any of their favorite races whether it be Horde or Alliance side asking for more customizations for their particular favorite race.

The blog post Blizzard put out a couple years ago now show they'd rather share customizations than keep them exclusive if there are players on both faction sides asking for it.

Hell, I haven't even been playing the game lately or keeping up that much with news and even I hear Blizzard is more open today about potential cross-faction gameplay happening in the future. Another thing that certain posters were so adamant would 'not even be considered'.

- - - Updated - - -

I've never seen any pro HE people asking for "whiter elves." I have seen a lot of anti HE people begging for blue eyes (which they got) and complaining about BE getting dark skin tones though. While this very thread was the one asking for dark skin High Elves so they could RP the water tribe from Avatar.

Seems like a whole lot of projecting going on tbh.

Definitely a whole lot of projecting from choom. It's amazing how offended someone can be over others simply asking for things in a video game.

And yeah the people who got upset BE got dark skin tones was because it destroyed their argument of 'they're the fair skin elf race that's why Alliance got purple ones'.

[Mungho]

They will more than likely get more of both, seeing as player customizations are always going to be a thing and clearly as we've been seeing they consider it worthy enough to be expansion level additions. So, give enough expansions and Void Elves will 99% get more Void and High Elven aesthetics.

You make it sound like the next round of customization is the last one, which it won't be at all. I also haven't been seeing you say Blood Elves don't need anymore customization options considering they continue to have the most customization options up there with Humans.

Sadly, it seems this will be the last of more customizations, what with that Blizzard rep saying it was done for Shadowlands. When races like the Nightborne have barely any skins or hair compared to other races.

[Kyriani]

Sadly, it seems this will be the last of more customizations, what with that Blizzard rep saying it was done for Shadowlands. When races like the Nightborne have barely any skins or hair compared to other races.

That announcement really was a travesty. The Nightborne in particular are in such a terrible state and Shadowlands customization was the prime opportunity to fix their issues. The Lightforged and Highmountain could also use considerably more options.

It's a terrible pill to swallow that we'll have to wait till next expansion, at the earliest, to see more customization for any race.

[FlubberPuddy]

Sadly, it seems this will be the last of more customizations, what with that Blizzard rep saying it was done for Shadowlands. When races like the Nightborne have barely any skins or hair compared to other races.

It’s done for Shadowlands expansion, not the entire game’s life. They learned that race customizations are as highly valued as a new class/race (potentially more so) and thus are relegating them to expansion drops.

That’s why I said give it enough expansions and not patches.

- - - Updated - - -

That announcement really was a travesty. The Nightborne in particular are in such a terrible state and Shadowlands customization was the prime opportunity to fix their issues. The Lightforged and Highmountain could also use considerably more options.

It's a terrible pill to swallow that we'll have to wait till next expansion, at the earliest, to see more customization for any race.

Yeah definitely, that was a letdown when I learned of it. I don’t believe customization updates should be expansion level features.

If anything, like with Heritage armor, it felt great looking forward to the next patches to see which races would get their armor. The same could’ve been done for race customization a la “it’s the Nightborne customization patch” alongside the usual dungeons/raids etc.

But I think I also read somewhere that half the playerbase unsubbed after the first shadowlands quarter. So blizzard probably prioritizes the content in patches for those playing them (playing the raids/dungeons) and the more wide-reaching content like character customization gets put in with expansions so it reaches the audience that plays for one quarter then drops the game till the next expansion.

Sad for us, but a business savvy move on Blizzard’s end.