1. #23461
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    one phrase for you:

    TOO MUCH

    This is way too much, we live together, but you've gone too far, and are taking too much time - you're trying to make horde fans agree with you by giving the horde stuff, it's too much.

    To be honest, I think you are bending over backwards for the horde – it makes no difference to fans here, you don't understand what passion and love means, it's not rational, you could offer them the kitchen sink they wouldn’t take it, because the fact you want the high elves badly makes them think it’s worth more than it is, and because they view you as the enemy, any improvements you suggest for them would be ignored. It’s psychology. Plus some of them love it as it is no matter what. Just like some alliance fans loved high elves and always resented them going horde till this day.


    You've given the horde way too much, they don’t’ need all that, nor do you need to make the alliance super. You’ve offered far too much, and they’re not even interested, improvements to orcs, trolls, goblins, Tauren, 4 more cities, Pandaren fully horde in all but name, the undead being even more powerful and prominent and then a rebuild of the blood elves and the Nightborne into something incredible? Did you read what you wrote? It’s too much, they’re already the popular faction by some distant, and it’s arguable whether the high elves return and the rise to prominence of the night elves would be enough to even the score, not to mention add all this stuff to the horde.

    I would first boost the alliance with the High elves returning and raising the kaldorei up in a cool way, not ridiculously, then see how that goes, if it turns out to do extremely well then I’ll start adding more of the horde stuff bit by bit so the horde doesn’t lag behind (if that ever happens), but this can happen over time, as you raise the night elf profile, you can raise build up the undead.

    But much of this would depend on how attractive high elves and cool night elves are to the alliance. And you will have to remember elves are not the only alliance race, so others will also need improvements. I think you people put too much stock in elves.

    Or maybe it's blizzard's fault for making them the only really attractive models in game and under estimating how much of a driving force this is to most of their player base. They should have made elves the ugly race, I bet we won't have anywhere near this amount of fuss, even if the lore was exactly the same minus the beauty part.
    I mean the level of delusion of saying "you are giving the Horde too much"... when you guys literally want to take away the identity of a horde race is hilarious. I mean it's clear you guys don't care even a little bit about the Horde, but at least Ravenmoon pretends this would be good for the Horde, or at least tries to sell that.

    But yeah, you want to take away the Horde's most popular race because you don't think it fits your vision of what WoW should be, and just expect Horde people to just agree that is a sensible idea? Ridonkulous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    You need to take a chill pill, elves aren't your property and you're not a blizzard employee. Warcraft isn't real, and you should spend more time on real life issues, you're getting far too swept upon this.

    I'm tired of it, I live with Ravenmoon so I get to hear all the things he writes about first hand and we constantly discuss them. By the time you get to read about them, they've already been discussed to death verbally by this household, you have no idea what the original thoughts were - his posts are lengthy because he brings up the full end result of the discussions and all the points the discussion found some sort of agreement on.

    But I'm just sick of it, which is why you barely see me here, the game and it's lore has lost most of its meaning and attraction, it's become bland and one-sided, inconsistent and it's makers don't care as much, why should I? I applaud Ravenmoon's effort to try and spice it up, but I can't' find any enthusiasm to get motivated by it. or put hopes on it working, cos it really all feels so irrelevant.. it's a bloody video game, you guys take it so far you insult each other - I use to be there with you.. too involved, to into, to busy trying to prove a point and getting lost in it all forgetting what this is all about and what makes it fun.

    People are real, high elves, night elves, blood elves etc are not, why waste time over it. If Ravenmoon is right and the developers don't care enough to do something about it, why should I? If you are right about it, the game holds very little interest to me in this format, and isn't changing, so I'm not coming back = it doesn't matter.

    Either way it's not worth it.
    So basically you are on a physical echo chamber with Ravenmoon, and then we get subjected to that in here. Christ on a cracker.

    Like you guys really are not seeing the level of nonsense you bring here. People come to this thread for entertainment, it is about a videogame, we are all well aware, but when Ravenmoon arrives with his moon logic of course it becomes a crapshow, because you guys are spouting some of the most insane ideas and think you are being totally sensible about it?

    You guys are literally on an echo chamber and seem not to care about the opinion of other people at all, and act surpised and offended when people point out how ludicrous your arguments are.

  2. #23462
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post

    Should I give you the benefit of the doubt on your ignorance about this tho? IDK man. The thing that pro HE people want is for the Ideologically and Politically Alliance High Elves to be Playable -give or take personal opinion- The whole "High Elves are Playable on the Horde" nonsense got tiresome years ago.
    I view the whole point of the discussion as "those who want the original alliance playable on Warcraft." This is what it's all about.

    Traditionalists vs modernists.

    Why badly want high elves playable on the alliance when they are available as they are on the horde? Except to want the original fantasy? I'm not going to spit on people's desires just because I am fed up of it, I have argued for high elves being playable in the past, but it seems so pointless now and meaningless, like I wasted my life on trash that meant nothing. but my trash seems to be someone elses' holy grail.

    And the reason I can say Ravenmoon has a point is because I can look at the proposal objectively from the point of view of making the alliance popular and restoring the Warcraft tradition. I've heard this argument a lot more than you and have discussed it a lot more, and I am exhausted, I just don't care, if I'm honest. I've ben humouring someone I like and care for, but it honestly doesn't mean that much to me. What you have to read in essays I have had to discuss in person. Talking is much easier, but lately I have felt Warcraft is so pointless getting excited about or making an effort. It's a game, the game is enjoyable for being a game, not for how accurate the lore is on elves or dragons, or how consistent it is or the philosophy of the factions and how elf movement by affect them.


    At this point, if it matters so much to their public, I'd have given high elves a long time ago and be done with it. Clearly ignoring the appeals and sticking to "the high elves are on the horde" so it's no point giving hasn't worked. The guys want it, and actually it isn't that big of a deal. According to Ravenmoon, it would be a big boost for the alliance, because of how much alliance people make a fuss over it - I am inclined to agree with that point, I am also inclined to agree with how stripping the high elf out of the blood elf will affect theme and segregate the factions more.

    But I don't care, you all have arguments to make that you feel are important, you may feel that such a move will destroy what the blood elves are, you'd be right, Raven's point is that such a destruction will make the horde better give the blood elves new distinct life or the chance for it if they get developed and boost the alliance, I also agree with that.. is the destruction of the blood elf as we know them currently worth it though? or necessary? That's the main argument here.

    The end result will be playable high elves, but why high elves should be playable is the sort of topic I will leave to fans more interested in the game and Warcraft currently than I am.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-01-20 at 10:52 PM.

  3. #23463
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    You need to take a chill pill, elves aren't your property and you're not a blizzard employee. Warcraft isn't real, and you should spend more time on real life issues, you're getting far too swept upon this.

    I'm tired of it, I live with Ravenmoon so I get to hear all the things he writes about first hand and we constantly discuss them. By the time you get to read about them, they've already been discussed to death verbally by this household, you have no idea what the original thoughts were - his posts are lengthy because he brings up the full end result of the discussions and all the points the discussion found some sort of agreement on.

    But I'm just sick of it, which is why you barely see me here, the game and it's lore has lost most of its meaning and attraction, it's become bland and one-sided, inconsistent and it's makers don't care as much, why should I? I applaud Ravenmoon's effort to try and spice it up, but I can't' find any enthusiasm to get motivated by it. or put hopes on it working, cos it really all feels so irrelevant.. it's a bloody video game, you guys take it so far you insult each other - I use to be there with you.. too involved, to into, to busy trying to prove a point and getting lost in it all forgetting what this is all about and what makes it fun.

    People are real, high elves, night elves, blood elves etc are not, why waste time over it. If Ravenmoon is right and the developers don't care enough to do something about it, why should I? If you are right about it, the game holds very little interest to me in this format, and isn't changing, so I'm not coming back = it doesn't matter.

    Either way it's not worth it.
    Maybe your the ones who need to take a step back from this.

    I mean, I meet unreasonable request with unreasonable request. So if you want Horde stuff, we take Alliance stuff and that stuff will be Night Elf lands.

    Sin'dorei and Shaldorei will live on Kalimdor with all night elf lands. It's fair.
    Taking the Draenei isles can come in 10.1

  4. #23464
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post

    But yeah, you want to take away the Horde's most popular race because you don't think it fits your vision of what WoW should be, and just expect Horde people to just agree that is a sensible idea? Ridonkulous.
    I thought he wasn't proposing removing blood elves, but rather the high elf portions of them. As far as I can read, and from what we have discussed, blood elves remain on the horde in this scenario - but maybe the problem is that you keep thinking the horde will lose blood elves, rather than just the high elven alliance themed aspects.

    And yes, he is offering you far too much, the horde doesn't need any of the things he is proposing, the horde is super popular, and enjoying the lionshare of the attention and relevance, it doesn't need more stuff to orcs, trolls, goblins, etc, it certainly doesn't need blood elves and Nightborne rebuilt into some amazing race, if anything they should be developed as a co-existing group, like Dwarves and Gnomes, two separate races but effectively operating together rather than two separate unique identities, Nightborne are a night elf sub-race, not a unique race, if you take the night elf civilization out of them so it can go back to the alliance, it's no point making a full entity of them, they should be allied race level of relevance, not given more precedence and meaning than say Highmountain tauren, or Mag'har orcs, or Vulpera or even Zandalari - and this is what I mean, if they put so much effort into an elven sub-race that's not traditionally horde, while leaving or ignoring Tauren development and Mag'har orc development etc.. why not put the time they would have put into the Nightborne into other races? And just tag the Nightborne to the blood elves and leave it at that? The horde is not about the elves, it never was.. it's things like that keep people like Ravenmoon and others annoyed at the whole thing.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-01-20 at 11:05 PM.

  5. #23465
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    one phrase for you:

    TOO MUCH

    This is way too much, we live together, but you've gone too far, and are taking too much time - you're trying to make horde fans agree with you by giving the horde stuff, it's too much.

    To be honest, I think you are bending over backwards for the horde – it makes no difference to fans here, you don't understand what passion and love means, it's not rational, you could offer them the kitchen sink they wouldn’t take it, because the fact you want the high elves badly makes them think it’s worth more than it is, and because they view you as the enemy, any improvements you suggest for them would be ignored. It’s psychology. Plus some of them love it as it is no matter what. Just like some alliance fans loved high elves and always resented them going horde till this day.


    You've given the horde way too much, they don’t’ need all that, nor do you need to make the alliance super. You’ve offered far too much, and they’re not even interested, improvements to orcs, trolls, goblins, Tauren, 4 more cities, Pandaren fully horde in all but name, the undead being even more powerful and prominent and then a rebuild of the blood elves and the Nightborne into something incredible? Did you read what you wrote? It’s too much, they’re already the popular faction by some distant, and it’s arguable whether the high elves return and the rise to prominence of the night elves would be enough to even the score, not to mention add all this stuff to the horde.

    I would first boost the alliance with the High elves returning and raising the kaldorei up in a cool way, not ridiculously, then see how that goes, if it turns out to do extremely well then I’ll start adding more of the horde stuff bit by bit so the horde doesn’t lag behind (if that ever happens), but this can happen over time, as you raise the night elf profile, you can raise build up the undead.

    But much of this would depend on how attractive high elves and cool night elves are to the alliance. And you will have to remember elves are not the only alliance race, so others will also need improvements. I think you people put too much stock in elves.

    Or maybe it's blizzard's fault for making them the only really attractive models in game and under estimating how much of a driving force this is to most of their player base. They should have made elves the ugly race, I bet we won't have anywhere near this amount of fuss, even if the lore was exactly the same minus the beauty part.
    I did suggest it in stages, every alliance boost will get some horde improvement as well, I just expect the alliance having high elves and night elves to be a lot more impactful than what the horde will get, because of their importance to a lot of the populace, as such the opportunity should be used to make the horde races more attractive. Better architecture and infrastructure for orcs and new troll sub-races that join, just like I suggested model improvements for night elves, you are making other races more attractive./

    If the horde is to lose two cities, it should be gaining at least 4, because the alliance is gaining those 2. The iea is not to ravage the horde but to improve the alliance and horde, in such a way that would make the alliance more exciting and attractive, but still have the horde have new incentives to stay on it, but this time it would be for being the horde, for being orcs, trolls, Tauren, goblins and forsaken and pandas, rather than for being high elves under a horde banner or night elven Highborne types under a horde banner which are alliance attractions.

    This will take a while for some to get use to, the initial allure will be to the alliance because the high elves return in a fancy and cool way and the night elves are boosted too with improvements – this is important to get the alliance going again, but while the horde loses numbers, it doesn’t lose popularity or image, and it’s image gets pushed into what its core is about, so players on it get to love the horde for being the horde, and not for having high elves on it. This would make them far happier later down the line when you write the horde as the horde and when you give horde improvements to orcs/troll/tauren etc, which doesn’t happen right now because too many are blood elf minded, and that aspect of the blood elves they like so much is high elven.

    So stripping it away from the blood elves would also be a huge win for the horde, if those that love the blood elves can love them for being a tighter, meaner, less high elven group, less about fancy living in porcelain cities and more about things like power, magic, survival, etc with a harsher more imposing style to their architecture rather than pretty and flowery (which is what the blood elf and Nightborne ones are because that’s what the high elf and kaldorei civilization are), then this is very good .

    You want people liking the horde for being it’s core – orcs, trolls, tauren, goblins etc.. if they get humans (in the forms of undead) and high elves (in the form of blood elves), night elves in the form of (Nightborne), you don’t want this being like their original races - which is what the blood elves and Nightborne are currently, you want them being like what the undead became, distinct enough from the original, like what the naga became, different models aside, the culture, civilization, structure of the undead and naga are very different form humans and night elves, this is what you want, and while the blood elf model won’t change, it’s culture, architecture, it’s new cities in the future can all be different and not high elven.

    So the horde will feel different for being the horde.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  6. #23466
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Maybe your the ones who need to take a step back from this.

    I mean, I meet unreasonable request with unreasonable request. So if you want Horde stuff, we take Alliance stuff and that stuff will be Night Elf lands.

    Sin'dorei and Shaldorei will live on Kalimdor with all night elf lands. It's fair.
    Taking the Draenei isles can come in 10.1
    I have stepped back, but I think you need to as well. Take it or leave it.

  7. #23467

    I thought he wasn't proposing removing blood elves, but rather the high elf portions of them. As far as I can read, and from what we have discussed, blood elves remain on the horde in this scenario - but maybe the problem is that you keep thinking the horde will lose blood elves, rather than just the alliance aspects.

    And yes, he is offering you far too much, the horde doesn't need any of the things he is proposing, the horde is super popular, and enjoying the lionshare of the attention and relevance, it doesn't need more stuff to orcs, trolls, goblins, etc, it certainly doesn't need blood elves and Nightborne rebuilt into some amazing race, if anything they should developed as a co-existing group, like Dwarves and Gnomes, two separate races but effectively operating together rather than two separate unique identities, Nightborne are a night elf sub-race, not a unique race, if you take the night elf civilization out of them so it can go back to the alliance, it's no point making a full entity of them, they should be allied race level of relevance, not given more precedence and meaning than say Highmountain tauren, or Mag'har orcs, or Vulpera or even Zandalari - and this is what I mean, if they put so much effort into an elven sub-race that's not traditionally horde, while leaving or ignoring Tauren development and Mag'har orc development etc.. why not put the time they would have put into the Nightborne into other races? And just tag the Nightborne to the blood elves and leave it at that? The horde is not about the elves, it never was.. it's things like that keep people like Ravenmoon and others annoyed at the whole thing.
    The Alliance isn't about the Elves either.
    All the Alliance is, is Humans and their pets in Stormwind.

    And you remove nightborne and Blood Elves from their home, then nelfs are removed from Kalimdor and Lor'themar and Thalyssra primarily claim Ashenvale, renamed to Felo'Thalas and Desolace, but they also claim Eldre'Thalas, Feralas, Hyjal and other places.
    Valtrois,Oculeth, Liadrin, Rommath, Victorie and Elsia manage these locations in Feralas.

    Duskwatch Elites, Magister Elites and the Blood Hawks remain and protect Felo'Thalas.

    Later on, they claim the Sun Gate and the Forsaken, Sin'dorei and Nightborne drive the Draenei out. Thus is led by Ranger General Brightwing, Ly'Leth of Suramar and Dark Ranger Velonara.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I have stepped back, but I think you need to as well. Take it or leave it.
    I'm not the initial one coming up with unreasonable requests.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-20 at 11:14 PM.

  8. #23468
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    snip .
    Tanaria, you and Ravenmoon have lost perspective.. you are arguing tit for tat, he is going out of his way to make sure the horde and alliance get equal dibs, if one faction loses something it must gain something too etc.

    So are you, you think what you are suggesting is unreasonable because he is being unreasonable but your suggestion is exactly what blizzard proposed in Blizzcon BFA for the factions. But again it's tit for tat and bad story telling. You are all rather stupidly caught in a rather silly game of pleasing rather than doing what's best.

    A great story won't ever give the two factions equal shares , you should be able to write one to the brink of extinction and back again, in an exciting story that has interesting things happening.. Warcraft is so bad it makes star wars look very good, but they at least manage to have sometimes the republic lose and other times the empire badly without their two factions feeling less powerful or less relevant.

    Blizzard devs don't know how to write, the game is a male nerd jerk fantasy. They play their favourites to death.. they did it with classes and they did it with races and factions and still do. Look at how super muscular and rugged the males are and how super model babes the females are, like 80s cartoon hero ideas of cool, because it's what they find cool, not what is considered cool by the people they are making the game for and the cultural changes that story content and character aesthetics depends on far more than other game systems.

    They're lucky that their game instincts are very good for the population but for story, aesthetics, balancing things like races etc, it's terrible, they play favourites.. and that is because thy don't take it serious. The things they do take seriously, like art, and systems they work so much more harder for and make far more calculated decisions, but as for favourites whether class or faction or race, they show these things to be not anywhere near as important and you can tell, they don't take them as seriously.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-01-20 at 11:29 PM.

  9. #23469
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Tanaria, you and Ravenmoon have lost perspective.. you are arguing tit for tat, he is going out of his way to make sure the horde and alliance get equal dibs, if one faction loses something it must gain something too etc.

    So are you, you think what you are suggesting is unreasonable because he is being unreasonable but your suggestion is exactly what blizzard proposed in Blizzcon BFA for the factions. But again it's tit for tat and bad story telling. You are all rather stupidly caught in a rather silly game of pleasing rather than doing what's best.

    A great story won't ever give the two factions equal shares , you should be able to write one to the brink of extinction and back again, in an exciting story that has interesting things happening.. Warcraft is so bad it makes star wars look very good, but they at least manage to have sometimes the republic lose and other times the empire badly without their two factions feeling less powerful or less relevant.

    Blizzard devs don't know how to write, the game is a male nerd jerk fantasy. They play their favourites to death.. they did it with classes and they did it with races and factions and still do. Look at how super muscular and rugged the males are, like 80s cartoon hero ideas of cool, because it's what they find cool, not what is considered cool by the people they are making the game for.

    They're lucky that their game instincts are very good for the population but for story, aesthetics, balancing things like races etc, it's terrible, they play favourites.. and that is because thy don't take it serious
    Always has been tit for tat.
    You want to steal our stuff, we steal yours. I'm sorry, but that's how it is.

    Don't like it, come up with other ideas.

    I know I'm being unreasonable because I'm responding to unreasonable requests. And doing what's best is your own opinion...it's subjective. I know my ideas are gutting and hurting night elves, but you want to hurt my favorite races, so I'm going to hurt yours. I'm sorry, but until sensible ideas come to the table, then I will continue to talk about Felo'Thalas, the new name for Ashenvale that Theron claims as he drives the savage thugs that are night elves to their own deaths.

    Just remember, no matter how much you or I repeat what we'd like to see what we'd like, Blizzard aren't going to do it.

    Being honest, Blizzard will not deprive the Horde playerbase of a revamped Silvermoon and Quel'Thalas. They have been Horde lands far longer than they were ever Alliance areas and have always been Horde lands in WoW's life since TBC.
    Before that, they were neutral, but Horde-leaning as they did eventually accept Sylvanas' aid.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-20 at 11:39 PM.

  10. #23470
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I view the whole point of the discussion as "those who want the original alliance playable on Warcraft." This is what it's all about.

    Traditionalists vs modernists.

    Why badly want high elves playable on the alliance when they are available as they are on the horde? Except to want the original fantasy? I'm not going to spit on people's desires just because I am fed up of it, I have argued for high elves being playable in the past, but it seems so pointless now and meaningless, like I wasted my life on trash that meant nothing. but my trash seems to be someone elses' holy grail.

    And the reason I can say Ravenmoon has a point is because I can look at the proposal objectively from the point of view of making the alliance popular and restoring the Warcraft tradition. I've heard this argument a lot more than you and have discussed it a lot more, and I am exhausted, I just don't care, if I'm honest. I've ben humouring someone I like and care for, but it honestly doesn't mean that much to me. What you have to read in essays I have had to discuss in person. Talking is much easier, but lately I have felt Warcraft is so pointless getting excited about or making an effort. It's a game, the game is enjoyable for being a game, not for how accurate the lore is on elves or dragons, or how consistent it is or the philosophy of the factions and how elf movement by affect them.


    At this point, if it matters so much to their public, I'd have given high elves a long time ago and be done with it. Clearly ignoring the appeals and sticking to "the high elves are on the horde" so it's no point giving hasn't worked. The guys want it, and actually it isn't that big of a deal. According to Ravenmoon, it would be a big boost for the alliance, because of how much alliance people make a fuss over it - I am inclined to agree with that point, I am also inclined to agree with how stripping the high elf out of the blood elf will affect theme and segregate the factions more.

    But I don't care, you all have arguments to make that you feel are important, you may feel that such a move will destroy what the blood elves are, you'd be right, Raven's point is that such a destruction will make the horde better give the blood elves new distinct life or the chance for it if they get developed and boost the alliance, I also agree with that.. is the destruction of the blood elf as we know them currently worth it though? or necessary? That's the main argument here.

    The end result will be playable high elves, but why high elves should be playable is the sort of topic I will leave to fans more interested in the game and Warcraft currently than I am.
    I mean no one is forcing you to participate in the conversation, you can simply step away -well, not from Ravenmoon I guess-

    But as far as statements go, "I am looking objectively at this, under the subjective assumption this will the alliance popular again" Is missing several steps of logic. Like it's baffling how neither of you -in your seemingly profound discussions- seem to even consider how the playerbase would react to this, as if BE players wouldn't loose their shit if this were to happen. You are legitimately saying it's a good idea for the game to alienate the Horde's most popular race to this degree. It's hilarious how shortsighed you guys are.

    I view the whole point of the discussion as "those who want the original alliance playable on Warcraft." This is what it's all about.
    What you seem unable to grasp, you guys, is that you can honor a legacy while moving forward, but you act like the only way of having a real alliance experience is to see it through a specific timeframe, progression of its themes be damned.

    Some people like the alliance high elves for their history and want to see what is their future, don't conflate liking high elves with a regressive and traditionalist position.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I thought he wasn't proposing removing blood elves, but rather the high elf portions of them. As far as I can read, and from what we have discussed, blood elves remain on the horde in this scenario - but maybe the problem is that you keep thinking the horde will lose blood elves, rather than just the high elven alliance themed aspects.
    No, the issue is that you guys think that removing the blood elves identity -because you think that identity belongs to the alliance- is a good and sensible idea.

    Again, you literally want to strip BE's of their identity and culture and think BE players won't have an issue with it. It's baffling.



    And yes, he is offering you far too much, the horde doesn't need any of the things he is proposing, the horde is super popular, and enjoying the lionshare of the attention and relevance, it doesn't need more stuff to orcs, trolls, goblins, etc, it certainly doesn't need blood elves and Nightborne rebuilt into some amazing race, if anything they should be developed as a co-existing group, like Dwarves and Gnomes, two separate races but effectively operating together rather than two separate unique identities, Nightborne are a night elf sub-race, not a unique race, if you take the night elf civilization out of them so it can go back to the alliance, it's no point making a full entity of them, they should be allied race level of relevance, not given more precedence and meaning than say Highmountain tauren, or Mag'har orcs, or Vulpera or even Zandalari - and this is what I mean, if they put so much effort into an elven sub-race that's not traditionally horde, while leaving or ignoring Tauren development and Mag'har orc development etc.. why not put the time they would have put into the Nightborne into other races? And just tag the Nightborne to the blood elves and leave it at that? The horde is not about the elves, it never was.. it's things like that keep people like Ravenmoon and others annoyed at the whole thing.
    Again, you literally want to take away the identity and culture of one of the Horde's most popular races and act like you are doing the Horde a favor? FFS man, and everything because Blood Elves don't fit your version of the Horde.

    This argument is tiresome even from an Horde perspective, it's exclusionary and it hangs in nonsense notions of "the real Horde", but coming from someone that doesn't even care about the Horde it's condescending.

    Horde elves can keep moving forward, even uniting as a wondrous arcane civilization, that doesn't diminishes the Horde. You keep saying that the elven themes overwhelm the Horde, yet they wouldn't overwhelm the alliance? So contradictory bordering in hypocritical. Of course the Horde is not all about elves, but neither is the alliance. If you want elven supremacy say so, but no many people care to have that conversation.

  11. #23471
    Warchief Ardenaso's Avatar
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    it keeps on circulating back to "elves are Alliance themed" bruh bruh bruh

    the Horde has moved past its "monsters and beasts" way long ago, it's been 14 years already
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    (Alteraci Human thread in construction)

  12. #23472
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    it keeps on circulating back to "elves are Alliance themed" bruh bruh bruh


    the Horde has moved past its "monsters and beasts" way long ago, it's been 14 years already
    The horde moving past its monsters and beasts theme doesn't stop the elves from being alliance themed. They are alliance themed because they are.


    The horde can have non-monster and non-beast races, that wouldn't make them alliance themed, but if you give them high elves and night elf civilization themes, those are from the alliance.


    I could not say that if the horde got Naga, San'layn, Ethereals, Pandas, Venthyr, Night Fae, Kyrians etc because those aren't alliance themed, even though Naga and San'layn come from night elves and high elves. - those incarnations are very different from high elf and night elves that the are on the alliance and from which the alliance draws it themes.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  13. #23473
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    The horde moving past its monsters and beasts theme doesn't stop the elves from being alliance themed. They are alliance themed because they are.


    The horde can have non-monster and non-beast races, that wouldn't make them alliance themed, but if you give them high elves and night elf civilization themes, those are from the alliance.


    I could not say that if the horde got Naga, San'layn, Ethereals, Pandas, Venthyr, Night Fae, Kyrians etc because those aren't alliance themed, even though Naga and San'layn come from night elves and high elves. - those incarnations are very different from high elf and night elves that the are on the alliance and from which the alliance draws it themes.
    But why does the Alliance need to stay in one format and the Horde stay in another?
    Blizzard are not designing the factions to be like this and they haven't done so since TBC with the Blood Elves going Horde. Then in Cataclysm, the Worgen went Alliance and in Legion/BFA, we had races like the Void Elves and Dark Iron Dwarves, going Alliance.

    All of those themes are not typically Alliance, in fact I'd say the Dark Iron Dwarves have a closer resemblance and theme to the Horde, but the idea of "theme" is one's opinion. The Blood Elves are named "grim survivors" and that idea of being a changed survivor of a recent war that saw your race butchered to near extinction is something that melds very well with the Horde, as each Horde race has, except from the Highmountain Tauren, have faced some war that nearly brought themselves to ruin or were used by a tyrant. That is something that forever ties the Horde races together, and yes - the Blood Elves and Nightborne are included in that. The only race on the Horde that doesn't are Mayla's Highmountain Tauren tribe.

  14. #23474
    Bloodsail Admiral Isilrien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    ...So basically you are on a physical echo chamber with Ravenmoon, and then we get subjected to that in here. Christ on a cracker.

    Like you guys really are not seeing the level of nonsense you bring here. People come to this thread for entertainment, it is about a videogame, we are all well aware, but when Ravenmoon arrives with his moon logic of course it becomes a crapshow, because you guys are spouting some of the most insane ideas and think you are being totally sensible about it?

    You guys are literally on an echo chamber and seem not to care about the opinion of other people at all, and act surpised and offended when people point out how ludicrous your arguments are.
    I'm impressed that you're still trying. I gave up long ago on another thread because the people that are sticking to these long, rambling justifications for their head canon versus what Blizzard has actually done will never listen, understand, or change their way of thinking. Or so it seems.

  15. #23475
    Quote Originally Posted by Isilrien View Post
    I'm impressed that you're still trying. I gave up long ago on another thread because the people that are sticking to these long, rambling justifications for their head canon versus what Blizzard has actually done will never listen, understand, or change their way of thinking. Or so it seems.
    What started as an interesting conversation about how Blizzard could implement High Elves.

    We got the answer - both Alliance and Horde get High Elves via blue-eyed Blood Elves and fair-skinned Void Elves. Considering all the High Elf Void Elves I see running around every day you'd think the compromise was a success, not to mention the Void Elves are still due for a customization pass.

    But... now the only people still bumping this thread are rambling walls of text that sound like racist white supremacist dog-whistling without context. Hell even WITH context its uncomfortable to watch.

  16. #23476
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    What started as an interesting conversation about how Blizzard could implement High Elves.


    We got the answer - both Alliance and Horde get High Elves via blue-eyed Blood Elves and fair-skinned Void Elves. Considering all the High Elf Void Elves I see running around every day you'd think the compromise was a success, not to mention the Void Elves are still due for a customization pass.


    But... now the only people still bumping this thread are rambling walls of text that sound like racist white supremacist dog-whistling without context. Hell even WITH context its uncomfortable to watch.

    You should read the stuff before you judge it as ramblings or racist white supremacist dog-whistling, it is rather idiotic to make an assumption about a thing when it is right in front of you and you can examine it. But this is not about what is right, or what makes sense, nor is it about logical and rational discourse.. it's about pride, hate, envy, rivalry, covetousness, greed and selfishness... what else would cause you to dash in on a mighty high horse and make such grand judgements about your fellow fans afterall when you haven't even read what they have to say?
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  17. #23477
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    You should read the stuff before you judge it as ramblings or racist white supremacist dog-whistling, it is rather idiotic to make an assumption about a thing when it is right in front of you and you can examine it. But this is not about what is right, or what makes sense, nor is it about logical and rational discourse.. it's about pride, hate, envy, rivalry, covetousness, greed and selfishness... what else would cause you to dash in on a mighty high horse and make such grand judgements about your fellow fans afterall when you haven't even read what they have to say?
    Like for real, haven't your interactions on here with like... most people, clued you into the fact that you are coming across in a questionable manner? People have been both patient and real assholes with you here, but none of these interactions have caused some introspection on how you are being perceived?

    You say people are not understanding what you really want to say, and tho this degree, have you considered is a flaw of intention, and not others perception of you?

    I am not going to attempt to pathologize you, but you really seem to have a hard time grasping how your proposal would even affect Blood Elf and Nightborne players and their own enjoyment of the game. There's just a huge insurmountable disconnect where you seem to dismiss any perception that is not your own. Compound that to your dismissal of logical concerns about your arguments, it feels like talking to a wall.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    The horde moving past its monsters and beasts theme doesn't stop the elves from being alliance themed. They are alliance themed because they are.
    And again; How can we attempt to have a constructive debate when you have such a wildly biased premise and present it as an intrinsic fact? You don't have an argument as of WHY elves are alliance themed, you treat it as self evident, even when people keep pointing out there's no such thing.

  18. #23478
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Like for real, haven't your interactions on here with like... most people, clued you into the fact that you are coming across in a questionable manner? People have been both patient and real assholes with you here, but none of these interactions have caused some introspection on how you are being perceived?

    You say people are not understanding what you really want to say, and tho this degree, have you considered is a flaw of intention, and not others perception of you?

    I am not going to attempt to pathologize you, but you really seem to have a hard time grasping how your proposal would even affect Blood Elf and Nightborne players and their own enjoyment of the game. There's just a huge insurmountable disconnect where you seem to dismiss any perception that is not your own. Compound that to your dismissal of logical concerns about your arguments, it feels like talking to a wall.
    i
    I'm not here to stroke egos, but to state my opinions, share my thoughts. If you don't like the manner I share them and hate them for it no matter how much sense they make, then that's your problem.

    Do you think I care that much that I am listened to, or that the things I say are implemented? Hell no, if I was I'd be posting constantly on the official forums, reddit and twitter - where developers actually monitor, not here.

    I don't care, I say things as I see them and i explain myself too, I don't care if it comes across as too much for some or not in a nice way so they hate what I say, that's their problem, this generation in the West is so use to being cuddled, and act out when their feelings are hurt. So many show poor sense of judgment and allow their feeling to influence their rational thinking. They're more interested in manipulating the truth to suit their whims and desires than they are in finding out what actually is the case and doing something bout it.

    They get annoyed at you when you don't like what they like nor agree. Idc, I'm not doing this for such people, nor am I doing this for blizzard to change stuff. If they can't see what needs to be done in their game nor have a desire to fix it, then all my ideas amazing or not won't make any difference, nor will yours. But unlike Tanaria, you probably work for them, I really don't care.

    As a developer , you are suppose to look at things impartially and based on whether they are a good idea or not, not on whether you find the person pointing them out an insufferable and irritating jerk, or that the solution is something you perceive he desires.

    I don't own Shadowlands and I'm not subscribed to world of Warcraft any more 2021 marks the start of a Warcraft free existence for me, soon my voice will fade from here, but the points I make will continue to be true regardless of whether you like me or not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post

    And again; How can we attempt to have a constructive debate when you have such a wildly biased premise and present it as an intrinsic fact? You don't have an argument as of WHY elves are alliance themed, you treat it as self evident, even when people keep pointing out there's no such thing.
    It's on your head, this "wildly biased premise" you've assumed I am biased, then interpreted everything I said through that lens, rather than looking at it objectively.

    And you don't even see it for all your intelligence. You may think of me as a retard, I am disabled, so you'd be correct, does that mean everything I say is wrong or stupid? If you assume that without actually seriously considering the content of what I've said, then you're not doing juris prudence.

    This is what I've seen, many of my detractors and those who object (fortunately not all) clearly demonstrate they don't read everything, and never have, they are just responding to what I write based on the reputation I have here, or their former impressions of me and not on what I am actually saying. They admit freely that they are not reading what I say, and expect me to take their responses that clearly demonstrate they haven't considered what I've said.

    Go on, judge everyone based on your perception of their character rather than the content they actually produce. You lose out and don't make yourself look good in my eyes.

    100% of the problems I have are with you blood elf supporting horde fans, no one else, and only when it comes to elf content, and only form you people - that tells me a lot. you don't like people disagreeing with you on this topic. You don't want high elves playable or for the horde to lose that race you like so much, or the alliance have anything from it that blizzard has given the horde.

    This is why you have constantly opposed high elves and Highborne suggestions and arguments in favour of their native alliance- blizzards mistake in that regard was giving the horde these alliance races.. but should I say it was a mistake just because you guys cause arguments? Ofc not,
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  19. #23479
    You know Tanaria, the original alliance of humans, high elves and dwarves is a very powerful fantasy a lot of people like. Just because you & @MyWholeLifeIsThunder and @Alanar don't care for it, doesn't mean it is less valid or less popular. Just because it shares that with Lotr also doesn't make it any less appealing either even if you pour scorn over that. It is a powerful trio in many fantasies a lot of people love, and is a Warcraft core. Just because you don't agree doesn't change this.

    In fact it's an asset that draws people to the game, so why try to pretend it doesn't exist or argue against it existing? A good developer that agrees with you would be fully aware of this asset and it's significance to his game's population and it's target market. And even if he personally loves blood elves on the horde as high elves he would be unprofessional to ignore high elves especially at a time when the alliance needs to gain popularity and traction or allow himself to be confounded by arguments entirely constructed to hide these truths by fans who just don't like or want this to happen.

    All these arguments about blood elves not being alliance themed are just attempts to deny the validity of the claims and desires of these people because to acknowledge so would mean to accept this is part of a problem and would necessitate the fix you don't like.. which is removing the high elven alliance themes and aspects from the blood elves and the night elven civilization form the Nightborne to complete.

    I get you don't like this to happen, it's a legitimate feeling to have. You don't have to like it happening, but it is necessary and a good thing, and could prove a blessing in disguise down the line, especially if it leads to the improvements Ravenmoon and I came up with. [Yes we actually went through and listed all the pros and cons. And the pros far outweighed the cons. It's just Ravenmoon's manner of presenting things doesn't always endear getting along together.

    Your basically arguing all these points because you don't like this, not because it has no merit - this is why I say you're being disingenuous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    But why does the Alliance need to stay in one format and the Horde stay in another?
    Blizzard are not designing the factions to be like this and they haven't done so since TBC with the Blood Elves going Horde. Then in Cataclysm, the Worgen went Alliance and in Legion/BFA, we had races like the Void Elves and Dark Iron Dwarves, going Alliance.
    Just because the way the factions were designed changed in TBC because the blood elves went horde, doesn't mean that this was good for faction identity, faction theme or the heart of Warcraft, it also doesn't mean that the move was intended to alter that original theme and I can prove it.

    The blood elves inclusion was not to make the horde less like the horde of WC1-3 and classic, nor was it to take the horde in a new direction by making it part alliance, it was simply to make the horde more popular and lure alliance players over to fix the number issues. Evidence? the blood elves were never a major part of the horde narrative that always came back to orcs, tauren and trolls in the major faction plots up to BFA, but the large presence of players and the very prominent style of the high elf kingdom was a major attraction to alliance types.

    One of my observations is that the horde no longer need that right now. The aim in 2005 was to get them played a lot more, they are now, not only that they are popular and trendy. They don't need their blood elves having the high elf themes, the blood elves can shift ack to the bad boys, fel users, blood crystal sucking hard core, tight pressed elf group they were leading too from TFT, as state people on the horde find much more interesting and desirable than the vanilla high elf they are largely presented as.

    The vanilla high elf in contrast is highly popular amongst alliance fans, both old core alliance fans because it was the original foundation of Warcraft, and new fans that come in, who love fantasy, because of the popularity of this partnership in LotR and similar based fantasies like DnD, Warhammer etc - for both these reasons blizzard should capitalise on this to boost both the alliance and the game. And no one should be ashamed of Warcraft having this, it would be like being ashamed that Warcraft has werewolves or zombies - one of the reason wracraft is popular is because it has all these popular fantasy element in it close enough to the popular fantasies they come from - basically people like Warcraft and understand its races for this. Point is, it's no shame or bad thing that high elves are actually high elves and people like them that way, even if you don't. So sneering at others for liking human /high elf corporation fantasy and preferring high elf /orc corporation is just hypocritical and rather arrogant, especially if you try to paint it as something superior. You may prefer it, but it's clear a lot of people like the so called vanilla version you are looking down on. And to be frank your blood elves are currently too high elven for you to be criticising high elves like tha.t

    They are sacrificing an awful lot just to keep blood elves sitting on the horde like high elves, sitting on a faction that is nothing like they are, and sitting in a manner that is exactly like the opposite one.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    All of those themes are not typically Alliance, in fact I'd say the Dark Iron Dwarves have a closer resemblance and theme to the Horde, but the idea of "theme" is one's opinion. The Blood Elves are named "grim survivors" and that idea of being a changed survivor of a recent war that saw your race butchered to near extinction is something that melds very well with the Horde, as each Horde race has, except from the Highmountain Tauren, have faced some war that nearly brought themselves to ruin or were used by a tyrant. That is something that forever ties the Horde races together, and yes - the Blood Elves and Nightborne are included in that. The only race on the Horde that doesn't are Mayla's Highmountain Tauren tribe.
    I found it quite easy to grasp the context that was used. We all know the blood elves are on the horde, but they are not themed after your typical horde race, but rather your alliance race as they are the very high elves of the alliance of Wc2 and 3 that all original f. The explanation is simple, blizzard kept the blood elves like high elves, instead of developing them further into a truly distinct group like they had started doing.

    It would not be destroying the blood elves to take them back to that distinctive state and develop that, dropping the high elf portions and letting the alliance flourish on that.

    I am in agreement it will help the game in many ways.

    1. Boost the alliance, generate excitement and lead to attracting more players
    2. It will clear the horde of that alliance theme, the horde will no longer feel like part alliance, part horde, allowing a clearer more distinct direction
    3. High elves established on the alliance is a major attraction for old players who now have young, adolescent and teenage children ripe for getting into the game and drawing more fantasy fans of LotR into it. This is an asset, Warcraft is built on popular DnD/LotR/Warhammer type fantasy it copies, but weaves into its own unique story and format. I can assure you no alliance hates the high elves for being high elves. But hordies kinda do.. so why are blood elves on the horde so high elven? change it.
    4. It will free the horde and consolidate its theme. It doesn't exclude new unique themes being added, like the Pandaren in the future, that's part of growth, what must be avoided is to add alliance themes, because that homogenises the factions.
    5. The factions feeling ab it more distinct along the original lines, i.e. the alliance prominent with humans, elves and dwarves playing large and major roles, and the horde prominent for Orcs, Trolls and Tauren/Goblin is original wow. This means it is better for the elves to be a much bigger thing on the alliance and high/night elf types contain the heritage of their race there, rather than sitting on the horde with blood elves and Nightborne.
    6. this means blood elves and Nightborne mustn't be major in the horde as long as they are like the alliance high elves and kaldorei Highborne, but if they become more unique from them, they are far more beneficial to the horde bringing a unique flavour that isn't alliance and thus not destroying the large theme
    7. IT would be good for blood elves and Nightborne to lose their high elvish and night elvish characteristics, not only would it make them interesting, but it will allow them to grow, and like this they can actually play a much bigger role in the horde than they can now in their alliance surrogate role.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-01-23 at 01:02 AM.

  20. #23480
    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    Lots of races have unnatural hair colors, I think Void Elves can have their natural hair colors to complement their high elf customization options.
    It's the least complicated thing to add for Blizzard.
    It seems rather unfair that all Blood Elves can have blue and purple hair now, but Void Elves can't have a couple natural hair colors. At this point, Blood Elves have absorbed almost every trait Void Elves have. But when Void Elves ask for parity, that is somehow impossible?

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