1. #23461
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    It could be an argument to introduce a Spellreaker class that combines light and void attacks, that would be real cool since ppl really love paladins and it could be made available to Void elves. Or a Cleric. Or a bard?? x
    the point of a spellbreaker is to destroy or control an enemies magic. they are anti magic users.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  2. #23462
    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    You could conceptualize a Void Elf paladin as a discipline priest in plate, which would be fun to play. Spellbreakers themselves have a bit of a discipline priest thing going on too, especially older disc design with mana burn, plus all the dispels and stuff that seems really in line with spellbreakers. Bards would be amazing as always, and I would love that for Void Elves.

    What is your idea of a cleric class though?
    Thinking about it, Cleric might not be a good idea as it will probably be too similar to Paladin (having in mind the Rift cleric).

    I've seen a lot of posts about the possibility of adding a Tinker class. I would not like that one too much, I think it's too niche of a choice and does not particularly fit with elf races (they are very much magic centered). But would fit well with races such as gnomes, mechagnomes, goblins, vulpera etc. Probably too niche to fit every player's taste.

    We can agree that most love Paladins, so a Spellbreaker could get very popular, very quick. With the addition of High elven hair to Void elves and the Spellbreaker class being made available, a Void elf Spellbreaker would be very popular. I can imagine it functioning as a Tank with anti-caster spells and interrupts such as their own type of Holy Anti-Magic Shell and Void style interrupts and stuns, a utility, CC kind of Tank/DPS. With regards to a Healing spec, Voidy dark matter absorption shields for the entire group and some holy blasts of heals like a Holy priest's Divine Star would make him be inspired from several other specs but be unique at the same time.

    With regards to a Bard, it would certainly be a very epic addition. Initially, I had a bit of struggle to imagine how they would play as DPS, but after a short chat with my fiance we concluded that it could turn into a potentially very fun spec with much induced giggles! They could use violins, harps, flutes and electric guitars even, and abilities such as ''Music Throw'' could see them literally launch their instrument right onto their target's head! ''Music slam'' can have them do a dash and jump back ability to the enemy, giving them a swift hit in the head with their instrument, and ''Sonar Wave'' can make them do a loud solo, excerting waves of damage to the enemies! And ofcourse their lovely healing and support specs can see them play their instrument with beautiful sounds coming out, different melodies resulting to a different type of heal, dancing animations for AOE heals and supportive abilities etc.
    Last edited by Eleann; 2021-01-28 at 04:16 PM.

  3. #23463
    I love how this Ravenmoon keeps waffling about developing Blood Elves and Nightborne into something different...yet always mentions we have to lose all of our lore characters. So how can they be developed and have no lore characters? Oh wait...they can't and he knows it.

    And who cares about Venthyr or their style? They aren't Sin'dorei or Shal'dorei...oh wait, because Kael'thas is there, suddenly the zone is a "Blood Elf" zone. No, it isn't. It's a zone full of creatures who looks more like Dreadlords.

    How about Silvermoon and Suramar stay Horde, where they belong and Alliance actually get development and Blizzard hire writers who can write beyond "Humans and pals." I don't know how many times this needs to be said, but I'm going to say it again.

    Alliance problem is the Alliance writing (Christie Golden and crew.) They can't write anything beyond the Humans. It's been like this since Mists of Pandaria. Jaina, Anduin and Matthias are their big favorites. That is your problem. Look at Night Elves...growing pumpkins in Stormwind and even with the Night Warrior buff, they still couldn't beat Nathanos, Delaryn and Sira immediately. Whilst Jaina and the Humans of Kul'Tiras, as well as other Alliance races, storms Dazar'alor and kills the King. This is the problem. You won't solve the "Humans and the rest" with robbing from the Horde.

    Voice these issues to Blizzard. Not "Let's just rob from the Horde and the Horde can be left with scraps and look like scavengers."

  4. #23464
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Thinking about it, Cleric might not be a good idea as it will probably be too similar to Paladin (having in mind the Rift cleric).

    I've seen a lot of posts about the possibility of adding a Tinker class. I would not like that one too much, I think it's too niche of a choice and does not particularly fit with elf races (they are very much magic centered). But would fit well with races such as gnomes, mechagnomes, goblins, vulpera etc. Probably too niche to fit every player's taste.

    We can agree that most love Paladins, so a Spellbreaker could get very popular, very quick. With the addition of High elven hair to Void elves and the Spellbreaker class being made available, a Void elf Spellbreaker would be very popular. I can imagine it functioning as a Tank with anti-caster spells and interrupts such as their own type of Holy Anti-Magic Shell and Void style interrupts and stuns, a utility, CC kind of Tank/DPS. With regards to a Healing spec, Voidy dark matter absorption shields for the entire group and some holy blasts of heals like a Holy priest's Divine Star would make him be inspired from several other specs but be unique at the same time.

    With regards to a Bard, it would certainly be a very epic addition. Initially, I had a bit of struggle to imagine how they would play as DPS, but after a short chat with my fiance we concluded that it could turn into a potentially very fun spec with much induced giggles! They could use violins, harps, flutes and electric guitars even, and abilities such as ''Music Throw'' could see them literally launch their instrument right onto their target's head! ''Music slam'' can have them do a dash and jump back ability to the enemy, giving them a swift hit in the head with their instrument, and ''Sonar Wave'' can make them do a loud solo, excerting waves of damage to the enemies! And ofcourse their lovely healing and support specs can see them play their instrument with beautiful sounds coming out, different melodies resulting to a different type of heal, dancing animations for AOE heals and supportive abilities etc.
    I like the idea of a new version of class that can highlight the high elves. I have always been in favour of racial flavours, or skins or variation to the core class theme that gets adapted to each race. If not different ability mechanics (at least a few ones, but that would a be nightmare to balance giving the share combinations) we could at least have "select class skins" for strong class identities for various races. So basically not every race/class combo gets a class skin, just a few that are famous and popular in lore and that highlight the distinctiveness of races. Before I return to the high elf ones, let me give a few examples of skins.

    Examples:
    Tidesage skin for shaman (available only to Kul'tiran and humans) this auto implies humans get a shaman class, but your default will be the tidesage class skin, you can opt to gain the traditional shaman one after some sort of achievement , learning it from a non-alliance trainer. Options can exist for non- humans and Kul'tirans if blizzard so desires, but they have to have gained some requirements, like need to have completed Stormsong valley quests or something.

    Using this template for others here is a simple list:
    • Necromancer skin for warlocks - (yes I am aware necromancer could be it's own new class - it's up to blizzard to decide)
    • Blademaster skin for Demon hunters - this opens up the demon hunter class to all other races, but they come with the default Blademaster skin and unlike Tidesage won't have the option to gain the DH skin - that remains exclusive to night elves and blood elves (at least for now)
    • Ranger skin for hunters - available to all elves. Blood & High elves get Farstrider twist to theirs, void elves, kaldorei sentinels etc get some - these could be minor spell alterations, e.g. a Nightborne and night elf hunter can have arcane skin option that has a lot more arcane spells to them, while a sentinel skin and void hunter will have different effects, yes this means some races may have more than one alternate skin.
    • Beastmaster skin for hunters - available to Orc, Mag'har, Troll and Zandalari
    • Moon Priest skin for priests - available to Night elves and Nightborne
    • Runemaster skin for mages - available to dwarven, Kul'tiran mages
    • Arcanitol skn for mages - available to Zandalari and darkspear mages
    • Starmancer highborne skin for mages - available to night elf and nightborne
    • Sun mage skin - available to high elves and blood elves
    • Blood mage skin - available to blood elves.
    • Void mage skin - available to void elves


    • Valewalker skin for druids - available to Night elves and nightborne (allowing nightborne druids)
    • Illidari skin for warlocks - available to blood elves and night elves (allowing night elf druids who'd be locked to those skin - i.e. can't skin to a normal warlock because such don't exist amongst night elves)


    Now as you can see, some of these (like the mage and hunter ones) don't actually need a full class skin refit, just some minor adjustments to abilities to reflect the race, take void elves and Lightforged, they don't need a class skin for every class, they're probably better suited to just some abilities having a void or light graphic for their spell, rather than a detailed identity like a Necromancer or Blademaster might warrant. There might be a better system to actually represent or bring a racial flavour to all classes as opposed to lots of class skins, leaving class skins to be something really special for notorious flavours like Tidesage, Moon priest, Necromancer and Blademaster, meanwhile a different system can be implemented to bring race flavour.

    Race flaoru
    So in addition to a few select class skins, every race is given a range of racial abitilies. These are spells and abilities that are unique to their race. They are COSMETIC changes like glyphs are, not a new mechanic or unique spell, they are there to bring a racial flavour.
    1 melee ability (unique animation)
    1 aoe melee ability
    1 ranged spell ( can be used for instant or timed spells)
    1 aoe spell
    1 healing spell
    1 aoe heal spell
    1 special ability
    1 arrow/bullet ability

    Every race will get one, some races might share (e.g. Zandalari and Darkspear, Nightborne and night elf, Highmountain and tauren etc, but not all, void elves would have a unique one, but then they may share the spell racial abilities with Mag'har orcs (but only the spell ones), Vulpera will have a unique one - those who share might share some racial abilities where it fits their lore, whiles others they may not. Let me give an example:

    Night elf racial abilities:
    1 melee abilitiy - whips out a glaive (the sentinel one) and strikes call it moon strike
    1 aoe abilitiy - use the same glaive (tauren use their totem, nightborne use a conjured weapon, blood elves use the polearm glaives the royal guard have)
    1 ranged spell - a moon lance or star fire spell (nightborne share this)
    1 aoe spell - a starfall or nightfall spell (nightborne also share this)
    1 special ability - shooting star (nightborne also share.
    1 healing spell - Moon soothe (nightborne share this)
    1 aoe healing spell - Overgrowth (tauren and highmountain share this)

    The way this works is that you can glyph a racial spell to one of your main abilities, and it will convert that spell's name and graphics to the racial spell. So your spell book has a racial tab where these racial spells are listed.. If i click on Nightfrall, it will give me the option to glyph nightfall onto 1 of my aoe spells, nightfall's will now have the damage and cooldown of that spell, and will be the graphic that casts instead of that spell . e.g. Frost mage blizzard, if i can assign nightfall to blizzard, blizzard on my spell book and action bar wil now show the Nightfall spell instead, and every time i cast it it will cast nightfall, that nightfall spell will have the same mana costs, damage, range, cooldown etc of blizzard, it isn't a new mechanic, it is a cosmetic substitue.



    High Elf Spellbreakers, Bards etc
    Back to the
    This certainly predisposes some races to certain classes - but not based on racials but on cosmetics. I think this is a good idea, because in the lore some races have very strong identities for certain classes, and it's natural that these should be available to players and that we'll see more of certain types of classes on some races over others because of these customisation class skins.

    We know they are arcane based for sure, much of that was played up in the blood elves, as was the light.. the light focus shifting more to the priest side than the paladin, or at least the paladin side augmented by the priest would be a good development.

    Spellbreakers and Bards would be a sort of make your mark on the group, every race/group has signature classes that are more emphasised than others, or at least start that way.

    The ranger, the spellbreaker and Bard could be the distinctive opening class identities of the high elf. Bards can be type of hunter, but they are best as a class of their own, modelled on the charming, charismatic musician, from the wayfarer days of the high elves, those high elves who weren't in Quel'thalas, and needed to sing for their supper and charm their way, with a little bit of magic added to music.

    Spellbreaker is a type of priest/mage combo (could be the face of the priest side of the high elves, something that is unique to all other priesthoods.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I love how this Ravenmoon keeps waffling about developing Blood Elves and Nightborne into something different...yet always mentions we have to lose all of our lore characters. So how can they be developed and have no lore characters? Oh wait...they can't and he knows it.

    And who cares about Venthyr or their style? They aren't Sin'dorei or Shal'dorei...oh wait, because Kael'thas is there, suddenly the zone is a "Blood Elf" zone. No, it isn't. It's a zone full of creatures who looks more like Dreadlords.

    How about Silvermoon and Suramar stay Horde, where they belong and Alliance actually get development and Blizzard hire writers who can write beyond "Humans and pals." I don't know how many times this needs to be said, but I'm going to say it again.

    Alliance problem is the Alliance writing (Christie Golden and crew.) They can't write anything beyond the Humans. It's been like this since Mists of Pandaria. Jaina, Anduin and Matthias are their big favorites. That is your problem. Look at Night Elves...growing pumpkins in Stormwind and even with the Night Warrior buff, they still couldn't beat Nathanos, Delaryn and Sira immediately. Whilst Jaina and the Humans of Kul'Tiras, as well as other Alliance races, storms Dazar'alor and kills the King. This is the problem. You won't solve the "Humans and the rest" with robbing from the Horde.

    Voice these issues to Blizzard. Not "Let's just rob from the Horde and the Horde can be left with scraps and look like scavengers."
    Christie golden didn't ruin the alliance, I don't for one second believe that. I think it's unfair of fans to scapegoat her like that and it's false too and I suspect a deflection to hide the real issue with the alliance. The alliance has been in this state since TBC kicked off, long before she got involved in wow, stop deflecting and blaming her, she doesn't control the creative direction, she is given jobs to do, and while she can contribute and influence, it's very unfair to blame her for the alliance problems, when the issue is clearly that the horde is too attractive to alliance type players because of the the alliance themes it has. This is not an issue that can be ignored by blaming Christie.

    The alliance had it's best assets taken to the horde, which spreads its over both factions instead of just one, and also devalues it. Blizzard has had a 14 year policy of preferring the horde over the alliance, defaulting the coolest creations and additions to the horde over the alliance, this constant preferential treatment has not only established the horde as the cooler faction, but the go to also, and this affects the alliance.

    We only needed the horde's reputation to be fixed, in classic, it was perceived as the bad faction, the lame faction, the evil faction etc etc, it wasn't popular. Blood elves were the start of the turn around, but blizzard did a lot more, they constantly promoted the horde, put the horde in the spotlight, the centre of attention , this was all intentional, to raise its profile and it worked, the horde no longer need high elf cities and stuff to maintain this -and 2018 classic relaunch proves this, the horde in the exact same classic, relaunch is much more popular than it was in 2004, despite it being the exact same game. What's changed? the reputation has. horde is not perceived as the lame and loser faction, and monster races are cool and edgy today while in 2004, it was 90s mindset where the noble good guy was far more popular

    so when you have the horde having the best noble good guy types in the blood elves and Queen of nobility Thalyssra along with all the other things the alliance is supposed to be good at and represent, you have a problem.

    It has little to nothing to do with Christie golden. even if you write engaging stories for the alliance and its other races, it won't be enough you need to work at making them popular just like they did for the horde in 2006 with TBC, you need a fantastic launch that puts the alliance back on the map and some really good changes that come its way, the type that get fans excited, and trust me fans get more excited about high elves and night elves than they do about dwarves/draenei/gnomes/worgen COMBINED - it doesn't mean you abandon draenei/worgen etc, they need good stories too, but you can't ignore the elves, your biggest asset are the high elves and the night elves, so make it really cool, shine the spotlight make a big shiny deal of the Return of the High elves and the Rise of the Kaldorei, let the alliance feel big and proud.

    In the mean time you don't abandon the horde, they would take elven losses, but they would also gain more trolls, improve orcs, improve goblins - those things would be good also, but the emphasis would be on the alliance to put it back on the map and make it look exciting and appealing once more, that coupled with the horde losing its alliance themes will make the alliance the place for those who like that sort of thing, and the horde the place to go for edgy types, anti-hero types, monster and furry types as well as bad boy and even evil types. - the horde's asset would be it's great range, but that range will just no longer have the alliance stuff on its belt - it may have a vestige of it in that fraction of the remnant blood elves and Nightborne, but most blood elves and Nightborne would be cool edgy and bad boy types, no longer the alliance minded likes they are now, (with the odd exception amongst them fighting for their former values, ones that didn't turn back tot heir high elven ways and rejected the kaldorei reversal process thee Arcan'dor was giving).
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  5. #23465
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    SNIP
    and in the meantime, all night elves on Kalimdor are killed off.

    Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei are immediately compensated with Felo'Thalas and Eldre'Thalas. You don't get Kalimdor anymore and Thalyssra and Lor'themar have both the Sunwell and Well of Eternity. The Sin'dorei Magisters teleport the Sunwell Plateau to Ashenvale (this is when the zone is no longer "Night elf" as every nelf has been killed and the Sunwell is teleported to the North) and the Sin'dorei rename the land to Felo'Thalas, in honor of Dath'Remar's legendary sword, Felo'melorn.

    I'm sorry, but every night elf on Kalimdor has to die.

    Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei must be compensated immediately and that is, they take all night elf lands on Western Kalimdor and those idiot nelfs are killed. They aren't spared, they need to die.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-28 at 07:04 PM.

  6. #23466
    What is sad and annoying is that I am pretty much suggesting the EXACT formula blizzard used to make the horde popular, but in a less drastic way - it worked before, and i have every reason to believe it will work again.

    But funny enough the horde elf fans who benefitted from that directional change by blizzard (seeing it is what allowed blood elves to go horde and Nightborne also) are the ones most heavily opposed to it.
    and not because of the method or rational, but because they don't want the alliance to get "their" (not really theirs) stuff and like the superior way it makes them feels (my opinion ofc) - hate the alliance, but don't want to let go of the alliance on their faction - oh the irony) claim to love the horde, but have no interest in the advancement of orcs, troll, tauren, goblins or forsaken - closet alliance fans perhaps?

    It seems to me that the tried and proven method that they already know works would work again, especially when your metrics shows you how popular high elves and decent night elves are to the alliance players.

    Who was terribly excited by the kaldorei civilization showing up in legion? Night elf fans.. sure the belf fan loved it, but they were just ogling over how pretty the city looked, if you read the fan commentaries back then the night elf crowd were the ones excited by everything, the setting, the lore etc, who was excited when the night elves were finally shown to be a bit badass and dangerous in 8.1 ? - it was the alliance, it was lapped up. Who got super excited about void elves and super excited about the high elf skin tones? Who keeps constantly asking for high elves and doesn't seem to buy the excuses why they can't be playable and for good reason I might add? it's alliance fans !!

    You see more topics from alliance fans about High elves than you do draenei, dwarves, worgen and Gnomes COMBINED. You see more alliance topics about Night elves and Nightborne (from alliance players than you do horde) and these area also more than the topics on humans, as well as more than the topics on draenei, dwarves, worgen and gnomes COMBINED.

    if anything this tells you what players get most excited about and works the m up in a positive way when it comes to the alliance, it's a clear indication of where the focus should be put if you want to draw people to the alliance and make it popular, let the alliance shine for what the alliance has always been loved for. don't put the best things about the alliance on the horde, do the opposite pull them back from the horde, the blood elves and Nightborne can go a non-alliance themed direction. It's not that hard, it's not damaging either - it may upset a few fans, but it will heal the horde's identity crises and thematic convolution. It's okay for the horde to be multi-versed, but it's problematic if on of those verses is very strongly alliance, because it then devalues the actual alliance.. the alliance needs to be distinct from the horde and unique, which means if the horde has alliance characteristics, they at best should be very small, , certainly not as large as the blood elves and Nightborne are visibility- they're too high elven and too night elven civilization/empire themed. change it. and you'll fix the alliance, fix the game's balance, and make a lot of happy fans on both factions, especially on the alliance
    and to be fair the alliance could use a lot of celebrating right now - even if some of the horde elf crowd will be upset, it won't last, as I am convinced this move could lead to far greater things for the blood elves down the line, and the non-elf horde crowd will be very happy to have orcs and trolls, goblins and tauren, even forsaken at the centre of their faction, with little to no alliance themes in their blood elves and Nightborne.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-01-28 at 08:01 PM.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  7. #23467
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    [B]SNIP
    So, all idiot nelfs are killed on Kalimdor and all Western Kalimdor belongs to Lor'themar and Thalyssra, who are still Horde.

  8. #23468
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    and in the meantime, all night elves on Kalimdor are killed off.

    Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei are immediately compensated with Felo'Thalas and Eldre'Thalas. You don't get Kalimdor anymore and Thalyssra and Lor'themar have both the Sunwell and Well of Eternity. The Sin'dorei Magisters teleport the Sunwell Plateau to Ashenvale (this is when the zone is no longer "Night elf" as every nelf has been killed and the Sunwell is teleported to the North) and the Sin'dorei rename the land to Felo'Thalas, in honor of Dath'Remar's legendary sword, Felo'melorn.

    I'm sorry, but every night elf on Kalimdor has to die.

    Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei must be compensated immediately and that is, they take all night elf lands on Western Kalimdor and those idiot nelfs are killed. They aren't spared, they need to die.
    Do you even read what I write? So I suggest a way they could implement this alliance resurgence is if the blood elves in Quel'thalas all return to being high elves and re-join the alliance , while the Nightborne get restored to their original kaldorei forms via the Arcan'dor, and choose also to align themselves with the many alliance races they have more in common with including their own kin (we have seen druids and priests interested in the Nightborne during the Suramar campaign, and we know that Darnassian Highborne would certainly be interested in them, the Farondis Highborne would welcome their healing. The Dalaran wizards who are mostly human, high elven and gnome, , not to mention the curiosity with the Lightforged and the fact that the horde behaves in ways that are very different from the mindset that Tahlyssra and the Nightborne who won the city display...

    And your answer to this is that in retaliation, all the night elves in Kalimdor die, night elves who are nearly extinct in Kalimdor already, should then suffer another slaughter and massacre, and you think that the very high elven mindset blood elves in Quel'thalas, and the Queen of nobility and righteousness Thalyssra will be cool about that and should remain in the horde in that mindset?


    Really, so my way no one dies, which I guess is the alliance preferred way, your way we get another mass extinction of the remnant of a near extinct people, and you feel this is somehow justified and shared, because you feel that in order for the horde to lose the high elven aspect of the blood elves (which is not losing the blood elves, it's just losing all things that are high elven in them), this warrants another elven genocide).. like people aren't a bit tired of all the racial killing that makes so little sense because half the horde is so alliance already, you feel the answer is to make this worse.. whereas I feel there ar other ways to go about it, to regenerate races... the loss of the high elven part of the blood elves and most of the Nightborne turning to night elves, doesn't mean the horde has to lose out but can actually open the door for more trolls like the Drakkari, the amani and the Farakki to join the club, more orc activity in new orc city for the Mag'har, a really good one too, more goblin stuff etc, and you can build up conflict properly over time especially now when the alliance and horde are established once again as being thematically very different, which would make future fighting make more sense.

    further to more this way, at least the elven populations would have had time to be re-established and grown, and there would actually be things to destroy as all races would have grown a bit, rather than thrust another war straight off the bat just because you seem to be throwing a a tantrum in retaliation of a suggestion that high elves return and night elves rise up, regaining their assets and the majority of their population sitting on the horde, behaving like alliance races, but with a horde tag on their horde.

    You also have 2 other pieces of mine to respond to, I suggest you actually take the time to read them, and have an open mind, rather than be hostile just because you don't like the thought of what I'm suggesting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    So, all idiot nelfs are killed on Kalimdor and all Western Kalimdor belongs to Lor'themar and Thalyssra, who are still Horde.
    READ what I write Tanaria.. actually read it.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  9. #23469
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Do you even read what I write? So I suggest a way they could implement this alliance resurgence is if the blood elves in Quel'thalas all return to being high elves and re-join the alliance , while the Nightborne get restored to their original kaldorei forms via the Arcan'dor, and choose also to align themselves with the many alliance races they have more in common with including their own kin (we have seen druids and priests interested in the Nightborne during the Suramar campaign, and we know that Darnassian Highborne would certainly be interested in them, the Farondis Highborne would welcome their healing. The Dalaran wizards who are mostly human, high elven and gnome, , not to mention the curiosity with the Lightforged and the fact that the horde behaves in ways that are very different from the mindset that Tahlyssra and the Nightborne who won the city display...

    And your answer to this is that in retaliation, all the night elves in Kalimdor die, night elves who are nearly extinct in Kalimdor already, should then suffer another slaughter and massacre, and you think that the very high elven mindset blood elves in Quel'thalas, and the Queen of nobility and righteousness Thalyssra will be cool about that and should remain in the horde in that mindset?


    Really, so my way no one dies, which I guess is the alliance preferred way, your way we get another mass extinction of the remnant of a near extinct people, and you feel this is somehow justified and shared, because you feel that in order for the horde to lose the high elven aspect of the blood elves (which is not losing the blood elves, it's just losing all things that are high elven in them), this warrants another elven genocide).. like people aren't a bit tired of all the racial killing that makes so little sense because half the horde is so alliance already, you feel the answer is to make this worse.. whereas I feel there ar other ways to go about it, to regenerate races... the loss of the high elven part of the blood elves and most of the Nightborne turning to night elves, doesn't mean the horde has to lose out but can actually open the door for more trolls like the Drakkari, the amani and the Farakki to join the club, more orc activity in new orc city for the Mag'har, a really good one too, more goblin stuff etc, and you can build up conflict properly over time especially now when the alliance and horde are established once again as being thematically very different, which would make future fighting make more sense.

    further to more this way, at least the elven populations would have had time to be re-established and grown, and there would actually be things to destroy as all races would have grown a bit, rather than thrust another war straight off the bat just because you seem to be throwing a a tantrum in retaliation of a suggestion that high elves return and night elves rise up, regaining their assets and the majority of their population sitting on the horde, behaving like alliance races, but with a horde tag on their horde.

    You also have 2 other pieces of mine to respond to, I suggest you actually take the time to read them, and have an open mind, rather than be hostile just because you don't like the thought of what I'm suggesting.

    - - - Updated - - -



    READ what I write Tanaria.. actually read it.
    Yes.

    Night Elf fans want Horde elf fans to suffer, so nelfs have to suffer as well.

    Night Elves must be slaughtered on Kalimdor, to make up for the loss of the Horde lands of Suramar and Quel'Thalas.

    Lor'themar and Thalyssra, along with all of the other Lore character remain Horde, because Horde Elf fans must have their lore characters. They take all night elf lands. It's quite plain and simple really. Horde must be compensated for the loss of two of their lands (maybe 3 if you want to take Highmountain) and Night Elves must suffer heavily for it. You want us to suffer and to hurt, then you must hurt on the same scale as what the blood elf, nightborne and tauren fanbases suffer.

    Your race has to die, Ravenmoon - or near as damn it, but you've got Suramar, you'll get over it. Yes, it stings and it hurts, but this is the only way to make the Horde and Alliance truly fair. Horde will have Felo'Thalas and Eldre'Thalas and everything between and beyond them on Western Kalimdor.

    The Horde isn't interested in what Alliance fans say in terms of getting stuff we've already seen, like Orcs and Trolls in recent expansions. We can already create various troll tribes, we don't need more. What we need is the right to preserve what we've got. What the Alliance problems are, are Alliance problems. Plus, Horde getting little crappy areas that are hostile to the Horde and always have been...your not giving the Horde anything. No, we keep all of our Elves and their cities.
    You can add to the expansion of Allerian Stronghold, Telgrous Rift and Mt Hyjal if you'd like. That's what most sensible people are doing.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-28 at 07:36 PM.

  10. #23470
    Field Marshal Valandale's Avatar
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    Not really the thread for it, but an interesting take after Teldrassil and the lukewarm "peace" deal after the war, is if some Night Elves didn't want to just let it go, what with Tyrande chasing sylvanas and not bothering to help lead her people, and a lot of the other leadership chasing after her, Azshara could make use of the vacuum to try and go for a "Unity" faction of elfkind, "Elves once ruled the world, I can make sure no one ever harms our kind ever again." Malfurion is who knows where and I think all the NEs have to keep order is what, Jarod (tbf, he could pull some clout but he's never liked being a leader), and Maiev Shadowsong, and Maiev is probably a tad distrusted still. Azshara could try and make overtures to the other elven cultures too, trying to play up on recent events and the fact she now serves no master, no Sargeras and no N'zoth so she's "totes" trustworthy now. I dunno, it'd be something for Azshara to do since I don't understand why she was left alive other than they want to use her later. It would certainly take the focus off humans and orcs if she posed an actual threat for once and wasn't shunted into a lazy cutaway to another Old God. Her whole appearance in BfA felt like a prolonged "You activated my trap card" meme. Still, a resurgent Azsharan Empire that's not just naga might be interesting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    In regards to Mt. Hyjal, I think that's where the NEs are rebuilding already right? I thought it was mentioned in the books. It makes sense, it was pretty much their capital in WC3. Aside from that they have Feralas with Feathermoon and the Shen'dralar magi that joined up in Cata. Two areas the NEs could rebuild in Kalimdor. Ashenvale will probably still stay contested and Darkshore needs heavy cleanup after the goblins, undead and cataclysm hit it. Felwood could do with a western plaguelands attempted healing. But Hyjal is much much more defensible than an island.

  11. #23471
    Quote Originally Posted by Valandale View Post
    In regards to Mt. Hyjal, I think that's where the NEs are rebuilding already right? I thought it was mentioned in the books. It makes sense, it was pretty much their capital in WC3. Aside from that they have Feralas with Feathermoon and the Shen'dralar magi that joined up in Cata. Two areas the NEs could rebuild in Kalimdor. Ashenvale will probably still stay contested and Darkshore needs heavy cleanup after the goblins, undead and cataclysm hit it. Felwood could do with a western plaguelands attempted healing. But Hyjal is much much more defensible than an island.
    They are and it's absolutely perfect for them.
    If there's one thing Blizzard should take from Roux (and only one thing, in my view) is that they should put the Night Elves on Hyjal and near Nordrassil. It's a perfect home for them and was their home for 10,000 years. That way, the alliance elves have the Well of Eternity and the horde elves have the Sunwell. That's is extremely fair.

    I know the Night Elf Mages might not like it, but the majority of the night elf population are either Sentinels, Druids, Priestesses and Wardens.
    Very few are mages which is fine - it would be nice to see a sprawling city in and around Nordrassil, dedicated to the core leading areas of night elf society.

    Nelf Mages are more of just a side faction. Yes, they've got a leader, but he's not really an integral part of the story. Blizz just use him when they absolutely have to.

    With Chromie-time, you can keep the Cataclysm quest area, but in the modern time you can literally have the very top of Hyjal and the boughs of Nordrassil as the Night Elf capital. Remove the Twilight's Hammer mobs and the night elf and tauren quest npcs and then you can add in buildings for an auction house, bank, vendors, trainers etc.
    If you ask me, this would make for a very real and very modern, Kaldorei City.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-28 at 08:11 PM.

  12. #23472
    While I was surprised there was anyone who gave a shit about this to begin with, it beggars belief that anyone is still writing about it now. As someone who is fully cosmetic addled, I mean I get it but... I really don't.

  13. #23473
    Field Marshal Valandale's Avatar
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    Because this isn't just based on cosmetics, it's also based in story presentation.

  14. #23474
    Quote Originally Posted by Valandale View Post
    Not really the thread for it, but an interesting take after Teldrassil and the lukewarm "peace" deal after the war, is if some Night Elves didn't want to just let it go, what with Tyrande chasing sylvanas and not bothering to help lead her people, and a lot of the other leadership chasing after her, Azshara could make use of the vacuum to try and go for a "Unity" faction of elfkind, "Elves once ruled the world, I can make sure no one ever harms our kind ever again." Malfurion is who knows where and I think all the NEs have to keep order is what, Jarod (tbf, he could pull some clout but he's never liked being a leader), and Maiev Shadowsong, and Maiev is probably a tad distrusted still. Azshara could try and make overtures to the other elven cultures too, trying to play up on recent events and the fact she now serves no master, no Sargeras and no N'zoth so she's "totes" trustworthy now. I dunno, it'd be something for Azshara to do since I don't understand why she was left alive other than they want to use her later. It would certainly take the focus off humans and orcs if she posed an actual threat for once and wasn't shunted into a lazy cutaway to another Old God. Her whole appearance in BfA felt like a prolonged "You activated my trap card" meme. Still, a resurgent Azsharan Empire that's not just naga might be interesting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    In regards to Mt. Hyjal, I think that's where the NEs are rebuilding already right? I thought it was mentioned in the books. It makes sense, it was pretty much their capital in WC3. Aside from that they have Feralas with Feathermoon and the Shen'dralar magi that joined up in Cata. Two areas the NEs could rebuild in Kalimdor. Ashenvale will probably still stay contested and Darkshore needs heavy cleanup after the goblins, undead and cataclysm hit it. Felwood could do with a western plaguelands attempted healing. But Hyjal is much much more defensible than an island.
    Ultimately blizzard must decide how they want to develop the kaldorei. I feel, that they should make them epic again. In their original lore, they were an epic race, having reached the heights of civilization and retaining great arcane knowledge in some groups like the Highborne and Moonguard who we have met in Feralas, Azsuna and Suramar and also had long vigil era culture which had an epicness and ferocity to it. They finally have the demon hunters, Illidari, always been a tiny group but a powerful one that has always featured in their race lore stories through Illidan.

    They are basically to elves, what Zandalari are for trolls, except that blizz has really nerfed them and made them 3rd rate race in the back drop of everyone, the night elves are a ragged group, o the brink of extinction, without a home, and the only powerful thing they have going for them is the night warrior ritual enhancement.. yet, they still have a Well of eternity, and the ability to make a new one (just grab some more vials) - this can increase their arcane power and effectiveness, they have Shaladrassil they can utilise.. Nordrassil might be entirely dedicated to Cenarion affairs, but there is Shaladrassil they can use to bring some nature enhancements -- leaving:

    1. Night warrior empowerment and the Font of Elune from the priesthood
    2. Well of Eternity/magical well from the mages
    3. Shaladrassil World tree from the druids for the nature magical enhancements.

    A night elf nation that reflects the full total of what the night elves in lore are. children of the stars, an arcane origin and nature/arcane duality, an edgy hardcore fel component via the demon hunters. they may be much smaller now, but they can still have a stunning visual representation and presence that encapsulates all their facets, from the great beautiful pre-sundering cities like Suramar and Nar'thalas to the great paradise idyllic like forests shown in Val'sharah, the military strongholds of Moonguard stronghold, Black rook hold and Warden vault that represent the martial magical and physical forces - with the dual contrasting lifestyles of the kaldorei civilization folk like Highborne in Azsuna and city folk in Suramar to the rural druidic communities that prefer the forest life of the long vigil.. The priesthood in their cathedral and temples administering both societies and the Illidari capitalising on the fel scorched areas left behind by the legion.

    On their home turf they operate united to defend it, making it almost impossible to take their home from them ever again.. however outside it, all the different groups have different objectives.


    • The Order of Elune works to claim back the areas lost to the horde in WoT on Kalimdor
    • The druids continue on their world healing and restoring mission, less concerned with what banner flies over what area
    • The Highborne order - are more interested in magical knowledge and leading civilizations into greater enlightenment tempered by the wisdom they have gained from their errors.
    • The Illidari continue to seek out and eliminate all demonic and foul magical threats to the planet.

    New stories and quests can show how the night elves come together and work together to secure their new home and how the different orders and sections operate both how and when they work together, and how they are independent and separate entities with very specific and very different goals and objectives.

    They have great leaders to draw on;

    • Tyrande for the Priesthood
    • Malfruion for the druids
    • Prince Farondis for the Highborne
    • Jarod for the military
    • Shandris for the Sentinels
    • Maiev for the Wardens
    • Altruis or Vanon for the Illidari
    • [Thalyssra for the Nightborne Kaldorei - if they bring Suramar back to the Night elves like I have been suggesting),

    [in this scenario, most of the Nightborne got healed by the Arcan'dor not just from arcane addiction but from all the alterations of the Nightwell - and they shortly by default became an alliance night elven based city, throwing the capital open for the now homeless Darnassiasns, most of whom came form Suramar originally anyway - some Nightborne chose to magically halt the Arcan'dor restoration and opposed the opening up to the alliance, they found away to restore Elisande through her echoes, and fled with the blood elves to Kalimdor]

    In general, Mount Hyjal, Moonglade, Felwood, and Stonetalon north and west flowing into Desolace, are all Cenarion circle, they don't care about banners and terrirtories, and have enough support to miantain their autonomy, including several remaining dragons and wild gods.

    this leaves Darkshore or Broken isles for the new night elf base. I recommend borken isles as that is built as a compact night elf set of zones, that are close to the eastern kingdoms and the rest of the alliance, while Darkshore and Feralas serves as a foothold for a war campaign where night elves , fight to reclaim their lost portions of Kalimdor that is horde dominated -
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-01-28 at 09:17 PM.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  15. #23475
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    SNIP
    But let's be honest here, the likelihood of Blizzard having the time to just one race. when the reality is that they will showcase an Alliance only questline of the Night Elves claiming and rebuilding Hyjal and it's towns near Nordrassil and then possibly in Darkshore.

    Horde side, it will probably be Lordaeron returning to the Horde and to the Forsaken, with the hopeful lead of Velonara. Blizzard have already confirmed that Calia Menethil will NOT be the leader of the Forsaken, nor is she being set up to be the leader in the future.

    I don't think blizzard are all that interested in "night elfing" up every single zone that used to be there's 10,000 years ago. I think they will follow what they did in BFA and those places seem to strongly point towards Hyjal as per the game and the book, as well as Darkshore as per 8.1.

    Forsaken need to go back to Lordaeron. That is their home...it was their home in life and in undeath and they deserve to have it back.

    Thalyssra is Horde and Elisande is dead - neither are changing and it completely ruins and undermines Horde lore.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-28 at 09:20 PM.

  16. #23476
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Look @MyWholeLifeIsThuner, my vision for wow, isn't really mine, it's just the original - which I now happen to find more rare and unique today, than the trends of the day.
    And again with the traditionalism; so because it's the original version its better then? where was that traditionalism when Warcraft added new races to the Horde and the Alliance and wasn't just orcs and humans? Where was the traditionalism when the Orcs were made more than just the bad guys?

    The problem is your "traditionalism" is entirely selective of a period in time that was wholly subjectively more appealing to you. You think that by claiming that it's the OG vision of WoW somehow you make a point, as if any progression and the game and the lore are a downgrade, and again, all based on your subjectivity.

    More so, it's a traditionalism that isn't based in reality. In the original WoW, NE's elven aspect edged completely to the nature and druidic aspects, so when BE's were introduced as masters of the arcane in BC, there was barely any overlap.

    Cause again, you are saying that the game was better without any expansions basically, because BC already shifted the faction paradigm, and everything has continually evolved.

    Your traditionalism is simply subjective to the period *you* personally prefer, and the fact that you want to erase the last 14 years out of 16 and make them fit *your* subjective preference, make really apparent you ahve not moved forward with the game.

    Most players currently playing know the Horde including the Blood Elves, and you really think that presenting an idea that takes away the elven identity out of the Horde is fair? Please, again, try to put yourself in someone else's shoes, because it's clear you haven't.

    You have no care for alienating the Horde playerbase thinking you know best what the game needs, how is that not the height of arrogance and solipsism?


    But ofc this isn't the only motivation, the alliance will be very excited if the whole high elf fantasy returns to it, and the night elf fantasy, it's fully scope is fully realised on it
    And just another generalization based on what YOU want. I play both factions, but hardly hide the fact I prefer the alliance in terms of experience, and an certainly pro high elf, and let me tell you that you completely overstate how the alliance as a whole ache for elves. Your opinion does not represent the majority of the alliance, and I can't believe I have to point that out.

    once you realise that the horde keeping Silvermoon/Quel'thalas and Suramar and the blood elves behaving like high elves and Nightborne like kaldorei Highborne/civilization types is actually not that important for the horde and rather detrimental to the faction theme, you will unanimously reach the conclusion I have.
    "If you thought like me you wouldn't disagree"

    Honestly I disagree with you on the dumbing down of the faction choice alone, but the moon logic of taking away something that has been horde identity for over a decade and a half and saying "it's not that important" is downright hilarious.

    All you want is a simplistic and reductive faction dichotomy that was getting boring when LoTR came out and you refuse to accept that Warcraft's setting has evolved through the years, and decline to board the actual and real problem of faction balance within the current climate and instead push the idea the factions should be dumbed down to easily identifiable aesthetics, political complexity and nuance be damned.

    But you will not heard any of this.

    You really don't care about literally taking away an identity that has been Horde for over a decade and a half, which is now far longer than elves were on the alliance before, despite that high elves on the alliance as part of their identity existed only in warcraft II, with night elves taking that place on WoW.

    For some reason, you think that alliance having High Elves for one RTS means all elven themes belong to them, despite the horde having blood elves for 14 years in WoW. You claim for it to be based on the original vision of WoW, when that's simply not true, because night elves had a completely different fantasy to BE's.

    It's just such a deeply flawed reasoning in every aspect, and its implementation wouild entirely alienate the most popular race on the Horde.

    And you think it's fair and rational.

  17. #23477
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    But let's be honest here, the likelihood of Blizzard having the time to just one race. when the reality is that they will showcase an Alliance only questline of the Night Elves claiming and rebuilding Hyjal and it's towns near Nordrassil and then possibly in Darkshore.

    Horde side, it will probably be Lordaeron returning to the Horde and to the Forsaken, with the hopeful lead of Velonara. Blizzard have already confirmed that Calia Menethil will NOT be the leader of the Forsaken, nor is she being set up to be the leader in the future.

    I don't think blizzard are all that interested in "night elfing" up every single zone that used to be there's 10,000 years ago. I think they will follow what they did in BFA and those places seem to strongly point towards Hyjal as per the game and the book, as well as Darkshore as per 8.1.

    Forsaken need to go back to Lordaeron. That is their home...it was their home in life and in undeath and they deserve to have it back.
    Not sure what is most likely for blizzard, I wouldn't presume to know that much. I do know when they are keen about doing something they will go all out.

    So if it is reviving the alliance, they'd go all big on the high elves and the night elves. I expect Quel'thalas to be rebuilt and that take a lot of work, and instead of rebuilding Hyjal into a place with lots of homes etc, I see them using the broken isles, instead with Suramar the famous great capital already built, and very historical, and towns like Tel'anor, Meredril in Suramar and Nar'thalas city in Azsuna, just touched up as urban habitations, with lots of country in Azsuna and forestry in Val'Sharah for them.

    Most of this work is already done, so it is just a matter of assigning it to the night elves in story development and a few touching up, the major work will be Quel'thalas for the high elves... this would probably be part of a big story line and raid, that shows and gives the final straw of how the blood elves in Quel'thalas choose to become high elves and why /how a small portion of them get ejected out, the portion that remain as blood elves and how that opens the door for a the fel elves, San'layn, Wretched (who get magically enhanced), exploitation of blood crystal magic and Netherstorm etc and whatever direction will take.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  18. #23478
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Not sure what is most likely for blizzard, I wouldn't presume to know that much. I do know when they are keen about doing something they will go all out.

    So if it is reviving the alliance, they'd go all big on the high elves and the night elves. I expect Quel'thalas to be rebuilt and that take a lot of work, and instead of rebuilding Hyjal into a place with lots of homes etc, I see them using the broken isles, instead with Suramar the famous great capital already built, and very historical, and towns like Tel'anor, Meredril in Suramar and Nar'thalas city in Azsuna, just touched up as urban habitations, with lots of country in Azsuna and forestry in Val'Sharah for them.

    Most of this work is already done, so it is just a matter of assigning it to the night elves in story development and a few touching up, the major work will be Quel'thalas for the high elves... this would probably be part of a big story line and raid, that shows and gives the final straw of how the blood elves in Quel'thalas choose to become high elves and why /how a small portion of them get ejected out, the portion that remain as blood elves and how that opens the door for a the fel elves, San'layn, Wretched (who get magically enhanced), exploitation of blood crystal magic and Netherstorm etc and whatever direction will take.
    Blood Elves and Quel'Thalas are remaining Horde.
    Blizzard are not hinting at this sort of premise and Helfs aren't playable.

    Wake up and see what they're putting out. Nelfs didn't return to Suramar or Val'Sharah in 8.1. They went to Darkshore. Then Roux had it approved that they were then moving to Hyjal.
    Helfs are irrelevant now, due to Void Elves and they have become the staple of Thalassian faces within the Alliance. Void Elves are probably likely to expand Telgrous Rift or, my preference, would be to build up the Allerian Stronghold.

    Two amazing options that don't involve the Horde being alienated and supporting what only a small minority of people want. Blood Elf fans
    and Horde fans are the most important when it comes to Quel'Thalas.

    STOP BEING SELFISH AND WISHING TO HURT BLOOD ELVES AND NIGHTBORNE.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-28 at 09:33 PM.

  19. #23479
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    What the shit that's genius. Spellbreakers leaning on the Disc angle, that's rad.
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    We can agree that most love Paladins, so a Spellbreaker could get very popular, very quick. With the addition of High elven hair to Void elves and the Spellbreaker class being made available, a Void elf Spellbreaker would be very popular. I can imagine it functioning as a Tank with anti-caster spells and interrupts such as their own type of Holy Anti-Magic Shell and Void style interrupts and stuns, a utility, CC kind of Tank/DPS. With regards to a Healing spec, Voidy dark matter absorption shields for the entire group and some holy blasts of heals like a Holy priest's Divine Star would make him be inspired from several other specs but be unique at the same time.
    Sounds fun! I could see Blood Elves getting Spellbreakers too.

  20. #23480
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    The Horde isn't interested in what Alliance fans say in terms of getting stuff we've already seen, like Orcs and Trolls in recent expansions. We can already create various troll tribes, we don't need more. What we need is the right to preserve what we've got. What the Alliance problems are, are Alliance problems.
    Well said. I think @ravenmoon is a little too demanding with his wishes for the lore development. I think we should adopt a more subtle approach. First of all, as @Tanaria and @MyWholeLifeIsThunder have said, Silvermoon came out along with Exodar in TBC. It is practically a Vanilla expac if you pair the 3 first ones, Vanilla, TBC and WOTLK. It is not a good idea, and I don't think the devs are planning, to remove Silvermoon from Horde, or anything related to that. Same with Nightborne. It was a clear decision to place them in the Horde, and their home is Suramar so naturally Nightborne's starting zone is Suramar, but new players cannot quest in it. Both Allies and Hordies have the opportunity to quest in and experience Suramar when they do the Legion questline for it

    So I will pile up a small list of ''Do's'' and Don't's:

    Do:
    Give Mt Hyjal to Night elves (as will probably happen)
    Give Telogrus rift or Allerian Stronghold development with a Void elf capital and starting quest zone
    Give High elven features to Void elves, such as hairstyles and light hair colours
    Give arcane tattoos and glowing lims to Night elves when Core Races are looked into again
    Give Dark Ranger features to Blood elves such as glowing red eyes, pale skin etc
    Give Sun'Layn features to Blood elves such as fangs, vampire makeup, in-combat wings
    Give better customization to Nightborne such as skins, faces, and hairstyles (probs already underway)

    Don't:
    Don't take Silvermoon from Blood elves
    Don't take Suramar from Nightborne

    PS: See how tiny that Don't list is guys? Smile and consider how close we all are to wanting similar things happening. All that needs doing is putting aside some views, as the devs appear to not agree with these views anyways.
    Last edited by Eleann; 2021-01-29 at 12:20 AM.

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