1. #23541
    [QUOTE=ravenmoon;52983091]Put your self in the feet of the developers...

    If youw ant to avoid wasting effort, I wouldn't bother to build new homes for anyone... in fact, I would lump the alliance high elves , void elves and blood leves in Quel'thalas, and put the Night elves and Nightborne in Suramar - i'll get creative as to why and how they share and not build a single thing. Everyone gets a capital, and after buillding an amazing night elf city and a Thalassian one, why bother to build another? it's easier for me to make them share, and get off a fancy story from it, than build one. Another option would be to simply put the alliance in those places, and build nothing new for anyone. No building, just move the races around.

    Why should i build new cities that have no use?

    But it's not always about what is easiest, and world of warcraft never got this successful by doing the easy , lazy thing. Still, they have to determine whether paying attention to things like that are necessary.

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    @Tanaria - the blodo leves and Nightborne aren't yours, they aren't mine either.


    You keep harping on about us (alliance) wanting your stuff) but as manyhave pointed out on this thread, high elves were alliance first and still are.. but because blood elves joined the horde, you aren't entirely incorrecet either.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Kinda, because you base your argument on "optimal conditions" that are completely unrealistic. You can't paint yourself as a rational thinker and be so naive to not account for conditions.


    If you only joined warcraft after TBC, you can be forgiven for thinking the blood elves are a horde identity, because you know no different, but they are not. Everyone knows where the high elves came from and what faction their theme belongs to. And it's not the horde. They are at odds with the horde, and don't fit the rest of the races.

    Having an alliance race join the horde - which is exactly what happened, doesn't change that, claiming otherwise doesn't erase history just to nullify my point.

    And it's very rich talking about unrealistic in a fantasy project. If you think removing the high elf aspects out of the blood elves and fully restoring them to the alliance, in a fictional project, where anything happens at the whim of it's creators is unrealistic, then you have some nerve calling me delusional and naïve.

    And I'm not having a tantrum, but it sounds like you are.


    Oh wow, so now I'm "playing" the victim - first of all, i'm not playing anything, and I'm no victim, but everyone knowswha'ts gone down in warcraft and why, pionting out the horde favouritism isn't playing the victim, I'm merely pointing out how it's gone down, but you seem more intereted in truth and perception fiddling.



    If you make rational points, i'm sure others who read would be entitled to their opinions. They have brains and can clearly follow arguments. Just calling something hypocritical and "far from rational", "dumb" etc doesn't make it so because you call it so, offering no real explanation and reasoning for why, and the one reason you give for calling it irrational - is so subjective.

    Basically my suggestion is irrational because blizzard would never do it, or the backlash is huge - two things you certainly cannot know nor ensure - yet I'm the one that's irrrational.

    Some of you guys are just bullies, you talk all big, but when you hit something you don't like, you are offer essentially calling anyone that doesn't fall in line all k inds of names. Calling a person unintelligent doesn't make them so.. when you have written arguments, the discussions are there for every human to see and evaluate themselves. And those with intelligence and reasoning will easily see. You're not kidding anyone.



    I expect you to read the walls of text you are resonding, so you can do so sensibly and understand /see the points being made and why. Skipping them only to fall back on your half glimpse conclusion drawn from the first few sentences isn't due prudence. You will appear rather foolish to anyone who has read it through properly.

    If you don't want to read it through then don't keep commenting.. But it's a bit hypociritcal to do a foolish thing like not read the argument you are responding to and then accuse the responder of being foolish. If you aren't foolish yourself, then do yourself a favour do due diligence. It takes much more time for me to write than read.


    THen why do you keep resopnding if you think it's nonsensical? you don't seem to like me at all, so surely it's not to help me , you insult me so surely it's not to spare my feeliings. You claim to read it yet you don't seem to always understand what i've said. Rather than query again, you just generalisation and jump to conclusions.

    It just comes across as you not liking what's being said, and because it doesn't fit your liittle box, you are lashing out. You may not like the suggestion, but problems like the one we are trying to solve, require a little bit more out of the box, more drastic solutions than what you've been use to ( I wouldn't even call what I have suggested drastic or that out of the box - but that you think shows you'vereally been locked down intot he path that's been laid out before you - just know that the deves aren't that limited, I guess you get utterly suprsied when they break what you think is their own rules... but truth is, this is a fantasy project, it's not real, they can write whatever they want to do whatever they want for whatever reason they want.

    You would do well to remember this.




    Someone thought it was a good idea to give the horde a race that was core to the alliance, when it had never had such... was it a bad idea because it hadn't been done before? Was their a reason for breaking the status quo and faction distinction? (yes there was, it was to fix the low horde numbers and it's bad reputation)

    Now the alliance needs the similar fix, but all it would take is merely restoring the assets it's lost, nothing drastic like taking a core horde themed race over (like occurred in TBC) yes it is returning, because we know the high elves have always been on the alliance, and the blood elves left the alliance to join the horde, so if a large NPC population return, and the high elven culture /assets with them - that is a return.

    And sharing models? What do you think happen when Pandaren were introduced? What do you think the effect was of allowing same faction arenas and BGs? What do you think has already happened when when the void elf became playable, then also got skin to nes - you claim I have absolutely no awareness, yet you are demonstrating no awareness.. I suggest you consider carefully before you write something.


    You seem to be fine with alliance races like high elves going horde, and night elf sub-races like Nightborne also going horde, but rage and claw at the thoguht and idea of the alliance becoming the centre of those identities originally soley theirs that blizzard sharedd with the horde.

    And this is not even touching on the imbalance this creates, the effect of having the best version of alliance themes on the horde faction instead of the alliance and what that means for the alliance, how it devalues it, and also dilutes the original theme of the horde.


    you know why I keep repeating these things ,because you provide no answers. You instead insult, and in my opinion your response is insufficient.

    Just because it seems unrealistic to your or you feel I have no awareness of what i'm actually asking for because it "triggers" you so much is not sufficient. nor is it rational counterpoint, it's an opinion you have that you can't even prove - yet you make such absolute statements. You do yourself and the readers no favours. Even if some agree what I suggest is highly unlikely.


    The mistake was not giving the alliance void elves, or void elves high elven skins, no, with respect to faction sharing, the original mistake was giving the horde blood elves - but it took a mistake (to the faction identity) to fix a population and reputation problem the horde had, it is fitting (and a bit ironical) that the best solve would be to correct that mistake in as good a way as possible to fix the population and reputation problem of the alliance.
    Wasn't it from the documentary on WoW that they added Blood Elves to the Horde because Horde players were complaining that their girlfriends didn't want to play with them because they couldn't make a 'pretty' race.

  2. #23542
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    @ravenmoon I do not agree with this overanalysis of what should happen to motivate Horde players to switch to Alliance, or how to make the Alliance more popular. I think we are largely getting out of topic here, with constant give and take arguments on this matter. I think the imbalance issue is a very important matter and deserves its very own thread. For example there is an interesting recent thread in the EU forums titled ''How to make the Alliance more popular'', and I think these arguments would be more fitting there. What I'm trying to say is that we should invest our time stating how High elves can be implemented into the Alliance, and ways to improve the game through customization choices and aesthetics, and maybe even some lore propositions as well.
    You are right ofc Eleann. The topic originated on the EU forums. https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...popular/186033

    I brought it here because of the conclusions I reached that the elves were the heart of the reasoning, and giving playable high elves in quite a visible way as well as turning the fortunes of the kaldorei around to reflect that faction scope vision they original had (of the best of the night elves' pre-sundering and long vigil halves coming together in the new post wc3 era) was powerful enough to make it happen.

    It fit here because this was the place where arguments for high elves was been made. If I had created a new topic, it would have been derailed as "another high elf request thread" and shut down or merged with this one, since it is playable high elves that are at the heart of my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    But such a long discussion just on the fact that Blood elves and Nightborne should lose something (such as Silvermoon and Suramar) in order for the Alliance to get more popular is quite exhausting and wastes our resources, since the majority do not agree with this proposition. I know you said you want to state your opinion regardless because you think nobody reads this, but if nobody reads this then why do we bother investing our time and writing in these threads here? Perhaps in order for the discussion to develop and become more fruitful you might want to consider a different proposition or open a thread dedicated purely to making the Alliance more popular. I will definitely state my own ideas in it.
    I hear you, I really do. But as much as we like peace and want it, forum people are always going to argue. The arguments don't need to get abusive or rude though, but can potentially happen when there is disagreement.. For my part, I'm probably responding too much.

    Sometimes in order to make bigger gains, losses must happen, this is only necessary when previous errors need to be corrected, the hope is that the right losses will yield a better result, this is why a gardener prunes. I do feel that the loss of Silvermoon and Suramar, and a ll the alliance themes existing on the horde as a result of how the blood elves and Nightborne are portrayed is a necessary loss. And these high elven and night elven cultures and civilization which are alliance based and themed being visible and shining on the alliance will fix the problem.

    the people who don't agree with this are the horde elf crowd, and they will kick up a stink because they don't like it. Some of you more good natured alliance fans who want us to all get along, might feel inclined to compromise and give into satisfy them, it's a noble goal, but you shouldn't have to alter your desires, or your suggestions to appease anyone. Just because someone doesn't like it, doesn't mean you should flatter in your convictions or change your desires.

    You are free to do so off course, that's always your choice, but don't be coerced just to please someone, it's very manipulative of a child to throw a tantrum to get what it wants, in this case here, we aren't determining what is happening.. we aren't blizzard.. we can't give the night elves new homes or alter the state of the game.. we're just fans, we literally are sharing our feelings, our desires and our thoughts, not determining the fate of the fictional universe...there shouldn't be anywhere near such animosity from the others - we should tell them plainly to stop

    They've done this before, you only need read the pages of this very topic to see. Alliance fan or just a gamer/player (could largely play horde liek Mace use to), comes in and thinks its a good idea for the alliance to have playable high elves, and says as much, the, louder vocal horde elf minority jumps on them - with such venom, as you read, you can almost feel the intensity and the malice towards the idea - almost as if tot ell the poor kid he has no right to desire playable high elves.

    I feel there is something very troubling about this sort of behaviour, and because it isn't overtly violent it is gotten away with, but it is insidious. I don't like it all. Just because they don't like the idea of you having their models - this is how they behave to anyone who suggests it? over a fictional thing like a video game?

    Look at who has problems with my suggestion? All of them well known horde lf fan posters, now the alliance people that come on, never agree with them at first, but they make it easy to unite against a common enemy... you know who that is? Me - for suggesting high elves should be playable.

    All of a sudden Tanaria, Thunder and the others are now willing to discuss less extreme measures like high elves being fully playable - haha, and some alliance fans simply just tired of the arguments are going yeh okay, the best we are going to get is void elf skins.. but Tanaria and co would rather support that, than what they really don't want the alliance to get, which is playable high elves properly.

    they have reasons they feel justified for this, but they are being unreasonable. The blood elves are not their property, the elves are an alliance centred and core themed race borrowed tot he horde in TBC to help improve it... they remained very alliance themed and centric till this day and the night elf sub-race, in a very kaldorei and alliance civilization setting was also later added - none of these are horde themed, we all know that. but doing things like this has an effect. Thunder must realise calling me names doesn't change this.. if you take alliance things ot the horde and make them more attractive there, this undermines the alliance and causes people who like that sort of thing to flow to the horde, this was the reason it was done in TBC in the first place, except in in TBC, the horde was like at 30-40% so it seemed like a good idea now. It isn't a good idea now, not only because that theme isn't horde like, but because of hte effect it continues to have.. in order to fix the alliance, and restore themes, high elves being playable is a necessity.

    We know how powerful an effect they have on the alliance minded player, if you want to invigorate the alliance it's the high elves.

    But expecting me to shut up because they make a tantrum and don't like it, is bullying. This is what bullies do, they attack you, and they insult you. When have you seen me attack them? So making a point of the NEED for high elves to return to the alliance as playable, which is the reason for this topic , is attacking them?

    No Eleann, I'm not the aggressor here, nor am I the bully. They don't want you to have playable high elves, they never did, and the reason they have such a problem with what I'm saying is because I'm actually making a valid and very good point. It may never happen, it seems very unlikely to happen as Kiryanni said, it still doesn't stop it from being a very valid point and highlighting some of the serious issues.

    I don't like fighting or arguing, I am a pacifist, but I am not a "no fighting or no violence at any cost" sometimes, you need to fight, to defend what you believe in, what you think even your right to think, your right to dream, and to have a desire - no one should make you feel bad for desiring or try to control your desire, they're not your God, even if what you desire isn't good or isn't right (as they see it), they can or rather should reason with you and try to be persuasive, not bully or manipulate you.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  3. #23543
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    SNIP
    All you can state is headcanon because your knowledge of the lore is very lackluster.

  4. #23544
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Wasn't it from the documentary on WoW that they added Blood Elves to the Horde because Horde players were complaining that their girlfriends didn't want to play with them because they couldn't make a 'pretty' race.
    Ready for it? here is my analysis.

    The reason for this was to make the horde more playable. This is the bottom line, whether in some regions it's because Chinese girlfriends wouldn't play with their boyfriends on horde - in a very popular game that was mostly male ( an I mean large majority male), the problem was still there, the horde needed players.

    Chris Metzens and the devs commentaries, interviews, blizzcon panels, dev responses between 2004-2006, all tell you, that they wanted to make the horde more popular, it needed more players, now how do you do that? what are the reasons why the horde aren't popular?

    Well an easy fix seemed to be give them a pretty race, because everyone loves pretty right? They didn't want to share the founding alliance race..i.e. humans (which is what everyone else does in two faction mmos - seeing that humans are basically what most people play in video games - not the aliens - which is why all other two faction games have humans both ways) so they felt to solve their problem the horde needed a pretty race.. whether it was to get the Chinese girlfriends playing or whatever other reason.. the root of the problem was making the horde playable -this is why it was felt the horde needed a pretty race and it seemed


    In 2004, these seemed to be the only solution - but the real problem the horde had was it's low popularity and reputation, this is why people weren't playing it.. it was perceived as bad, if most people view the race as ugly and can't relate to their culture premise, that could also add to the problem. They didn't really know what the problem was, they had to figure out why it was this way so it could be fixed.

    It's in retrospect you can clearly see it was an image issue. You can also see how adding a pretty race helped, but wow also had notoriously goofy models as well, so a more anime, normal proportioned modelled like the blood elf helped a lot as well,.

    Truth is, it was an image/popularity issue. Alliance was cool, alliance was good, the heroes following on from the RTS series, and off the back of the 90s, being the good hero, white knight was the most popular, especially amongst the far more so called "nerdy" gamer crowd. Culture shifted during the 00s, and wow was one of those drivers of that change, computers and gaming far more mainstream, the monster became cool, shows like Vampire diary series, The walking Dead, Beauty and the beast and coutnless film titles, the 00s became littered with bad boy, monster type dudes being cool and in, the anti-hero era - as the 00s grew this became more popular.

    The horde image was changed.. now you can be forgiven for thinking that blood elves were necessary for this popularity to continue.. this was the main argument of the anti-high elf crowd.. it would ruin the horde they screeched, and we now know they were 100% wrong.. because it was never really having blood elves or having an alliance themed race that was the problem even though that having the pretty helped shift things faster.. the problem was always image and perception.


    When void elves came, the horde didn't melt away, quite the opposite, it did not stop the alliance drop, like predicted, even though they were popular (showing it was a good move, but not enough - meaning there is more that needs to be done)

    When classic re-launched, with no blood elves, the horde has been as popular overall as the alliance - without pretty blood elves..

    Why?

    Because it's image and popularity. It's not to do with pretty, it's to do with cool. Every kid who's looked in the mirror, boy and told he looks cute, and looks pretty has hated it. Boys don't want to look pretty or cool, yes some girls like that, and if you have the pretty face they like, then good for you. When we look at ourselves, we wanna be cool, tough, ripped. And beat the shit outta you - especially if you're bullied as kid -which boys get the physical side of it a hell of al ot more.


    Cool > pretty ---- has always been the case in my generation anyway, don't know about the 20s kids and how they'll view it - but if you grew up between 1980 and 2019 as a guy in the west, this has probably been your experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    All you can state is headcanon because your knowledge of the lore is very lackluster.
    Seeing I'm not actually quoting any lore, it's difficult to see you point
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-01-31 at 02:17 PM.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  5. #23545
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Seeing I'm not actually quoting any lore, it's difficult to see you point
    That's usually been the problem, with your headcanons.

    We talk lore as to why things can't/haven't happened. Blood Elves and Silvermoon are Horde, primarily because of Garithos and Tyrande and then was later enforced by Vereesa and Jaina.

    Night Elves, once again pushed the Nightborne to the Horde.

    It's ironic how the night elves, in both instances, pushed the Horde Elves and their nations to the Horde and specifically, to Sylvanas.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-31 at 02:10 PM.

  6. #23546
    better racials for the alliance=more popular

  7. #23547
    Pit Lord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    better racials for the alliance=more popular
    welcome back Rhlor; I think I agree with you now that we need High Elves going to the Horde now that Kael'thas and Sylvanas are both gone. I think of Dalarani citizens and Allerians who would prefer their own people than the Alliance to reflect the High Elf option for Blood Elves.
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    (Alteraci Human thread in construction)

  8. #23548
    Anyway, I've played horde many a time and I still do. Blood elves join the horde, cool story bro, I mean whatever, it doesn't sit right, doesn't make sense, but I'm just here to play the game, so if they want to have humans and orcs be buddies and fight dwarves and trolls... whatever, cool story.

    I can tell you this though, they were a lot more engaging when it was humans/elves vs orcs/trolls - sure these groups could get a whole bunch of new allies. Sure the horde isn't limited to races westerners would perceive as ugly - you gotta have eye candy both ways right. But it became less appealing when you started mixing the themes of the two factions up.

    If you ask me, it would be better for the horde's cool and beauty to come from something that isn't alliance in character/theme or presentation. Some of you have wrongly perceived I don't want the horde to have pretty stuff - you think this is motivated by some notion that the horde should all be bestial races westerners would consider ugly, have societies and civilizations westerners would consider primitive and savage ...

    Oh my God, you have got me TOTALLY wrong. Firstly, i don't perceive that as bad or ugly. I'm more a purist, if night elves are presented as fierce but highly civilised living in a rural setting but having an advanced culture and civilization that may be in ruins but the capability to rebuild - i want to see what I was told about and what was written for them - I don't want to see that anywhere else. - if you assume that I don't like rural you've got me totally wrong.

    I would have given the horde space goats instead, an advanced civilization, none human, but exotically beautiful. Because I'm not against the horde getting nice things, beautiful things or cool things, I'm against it getting alliance things, not because I hate it or have some massive issue with it, but because I feel it ruins it - ruins what I felt was special about warcraft - can play ESO and the other myriad titles out there if i want elves and orcs to be friends (I do play ESO too, not as much as wow though). Yet I've lived with it.

    I felt the horde needed a more human race like race anyway, decades ago I said as much and felt it was humans they should customise. That the forsaken, shouldn't all be bent over zombies, but slimmer upright versions maybe the vampire twist to them - as a means of solving the popularity issue. At the end of the day, I now realise, the horde needed image surgery. Whether you did it via humans, elves or draenei or nothing related to the alliance, you needed to work at it.

    I would have introduce half orcs, new races that I'd have made interesting and magnificent. Naz'jatar, Pandaria, Sky Reach of the Arrakoa are all examples of something not based on human or human like civilizations (like high elves and night elves have in the lore and game) that would have sufficed. And in fact still can.

    It just so happens that now, there is a great need for this sort of shift to happen - and it so happens that consolidating the faction themes could really help and improve both of them, with great projected long term benefits. Avoiding it because you don't want to take from the horde is not going to fix things. For the alliance to pull players from the horde, the horde is going to have to lose something to the alliance, the alliance is going to have to be more attractive, and as a dev, you need to do what it takes to make that happen. Just because your horde favouring cronies would be angry or upset shouldn't stop you.. do what needs to be done now, you can turn it back later if you feel you need to, but you can't be afraid of doing it if it can really solve such a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    That's usually been the problem, with your headcanons.

    We talk lore as to why things can't/haven't happened. Blood Elves and Silvermoon are Horde, primarily because of Garithos and Tyrande and then was later enforced by Vereesa and Jaina.

    Night Elves, once again pushed the Nightborne to the Horde.

    It's ironic how the night elves, in both instances, pushed the Horde Elves and their nations to the Horde and specifically, to Sylvanas.
    Tanaria, you are just saying that because you're angry, and upset. And if other readers aren't smart enough to actually read the context, you rely on your good will stored up to sway them.. maybe that's your tactic.. they only need read to perceive what is going on.

    in game lore narratives are constructs, the devs can change to suit whatever purpose and players are meant to interpret to the narrative of the side they support, it means nothing. I'm not going to tell you what to think, I have my own views on the in game events and tbh, they bear no relation to what I'm saying or proposing.. because such things always demand new lore and narrative.

    or what do you think a new night elf city or carving up the zones as you have been talking about would mean. It would mean new lore, new narrative, this is not established lore, it is not canon, you cannot accuse anyone who suggests this or expands to include how they feel the story can lead to this as headcanon, that's not what the term is used for.

    A developer decides what needs to be done and then write the narrative to make it happen. In this case, high elves need to be playable, all my proposals have done was suggest a way this could happen in the narrative.. it is not lore, because it isn't written yet - this is why it is a proposal or a suggestion, it's not very logical (or sensible) to call it headcanon... it's not smart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    better racials for the alliance=more popular
    and for you too @Ardensao
    It won't.

    Alliance has pretty good racials that often you see horde players complaining are too good, that's not causing the shift to happen.

    in classic the horde had substantially better racials, and were still not the most popular faction, in fact were grossly out numbered. Racials is not the solution nor the problem, they can help lure and entice, but they are not the cause, and buffing the alliance ones won't solve your problem, it will just imbalance the game and cause another bout of complaints from all the competitive gamers - people who don't care about which faction is popular but just want to play the game.

    They have to look deeper, and if they do, they will see what I have seen, image and popularity. The alliance has a terrible image at the moment, it's the lame and dull faction. Do something that will excite the alliance, and make the alliance cool. High elves returning and the kaldorei rising up will definitely excite the alliance, giving them cool stuff and writing them and their races up cool that would definitely attract.

    They need something splashy and incredible.. at they have this in the high elves and the some total f everything the night elves are.. if they gather that together rather than spread it between the two factions, it can look incredible, short of that they'd have to give the alliance an impressive , beautiful and very cool race. Basically alliance dream. The beauty of the high elves, meets the civilization of the night elves, meets the coolness of the orcs, the nobility of the humans and the edginess of the illidari - but does all these things better.

    In addition to that, they'd have to live with the horde continuing to have alliance influences in it via the way the blood elves and Nightborne are - which I'm sure you're fine with, but that comes at a cost. If you ask me, the easier solution is just to give the damn high elves and do it properly, and fix the Kaldorei so they 're amazing - no more broken night elves, subdued and used to make the horde look good.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-01-31 at 05:35 PM.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  9. #23549
    Putting my post from How to make the Alliance more popular here as well, as it tackles both the High elf issue and the imbalance issue.

    Thinking that Void elves, in the way they were released and the delay in giving them anything of a High elf setting apart from the High elf model, would help balance the faction imbalance, is plain naive. Void elves were released as blueberry elves with very little lore, and many people did not like that. Especially not the tentacles, many people find them disgusting? The only thing they got was warm skin tones and blue eyes recently. Ofcourse that will not fix the imbalance at all because a much better choice is still available on the Horde.

    If they want to see the slightest change in numbers between the factions they can start by giving some natural hairstyles and haircolours to Void elves, since it’s now probably too late to be adding separate High elves, so might as well make Void elves capable of looking like high elves. Ofcourse the hairstyles and haircolours can be borrowed from races different to Blood elves, such as Kul’tirans, dwarves etc.

    Then, there is the lore issue and the capitals issue. Void elves and Night elves no longer have a proper home. Night elves are homeless refugees in Stormwind, and Void elves have some tents in Telogrus, which really looks very limited. However, if Telogrus rift was to be expanded into a proper starter questing area, with shining void paths, dark void, shiny trees, and a capital inspired by both void elves and high elves to have dark blue and gold decor in it, as well as purple crystal decor, would make Void elves so much more appealing. And the restrictions for Allied races should be removed imo, as Blood elves are available for new players to choose right away, while void elves are still gated behind content.

    As stated, Night elves are homeless at the moment. They are a pride civilization and should rebuild from scratch. It has been said they are beginning to rebuild in Mount Hyjal. Great. Mount Hyjal is a beautiful area and could be expanded to include a Night elf capital and a questing area for Night elves. With crystal clear lakes, swans, new modeled tigers available in the capital, temples of Elune, houses etc. Tigers are super popular but their models are dating back to Vanilla.

    Now that customization for humans is practically complete, they should focus on reworking their character models. Ofcourse they will not be popular enough if they are just stuck with Vanilla models that look bulky (male human shoulders and arms) and have chunky thighs (hello female humans). Also, their running animations also need an update, females run like they have weed themselves lol. Check the humans available in character creation in Blade & Soul and Black Dessert, and then come tell me that our humans models look cool or pleasing to the eye in comparison.

    Dwarves received GREAT customization, but again no updates to animations. Female running and casting animations are as bad as humans’, even worse. Dating back to Vanilla. Same issue with Night elves, animations dating back to Vanilla and male Nelves look like they are having a headache when they cast.

    If all these things happened to better the Alliance ofcourse a lot more new players would be attracted, some casuals and semi-hardcores would probably switch over, and if free factions changes became available for a limited time at least, some hardcore guilds would consider it. Our racials have been fine for a long time, those are no longer the issue. Coolness and costs are the issues.

  10. #23550
    Bloodsail Admiral elbleuet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    welcome back Rhlor; I think I agree with you now that we need High Elves going to the Horde now that Kael'thas and Sylvanas are both gone. I think of Dalarani citizens and Allerians who would prefer their own people than the Alliance to reflect the High Elf option for Blood Elves.
    You know ... High elves are in the Alliance because... their people is also in the Alliance.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  11. #23551
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Wasn't it from the documentary on WoW that they added Blood Elves to the Horde because Horde players were complaining that their girlfriends didn't want to play with them because they couldn't make a 'pretty' race.
    And the point is?

    Most lore decisions in lore are based on out of universe considerations, it doesn't make them "less lore" than any other developments, because you know, they were added to the lore itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Now the alliance needs the similar fix, but all it would take is merely restoring the assets it's lost, nothing drastic like taking a core horde themed race over (like occurred in TBC)
    Yeah I am sorry, but crap like this is just stressing the point this is talking to a wall.

    You legit think it's a cogent point to compare the BE's on BC being made Horde when High Elves were alliance for 2 years around WarII and left, to removing BE identity from the Horde when it has been part of the Horde for 15 years, and are still part of it.

    "nothing drastic" "just restoring assets it lost" "merely"

    I'm done with your disingenuous minimization of what you are proposing. I'm done engaging with your garbage idea.

    Just because it seems unrealistic to your or you feel I have no awareness of what I'm actually asking for because it "triggers" you so much is not sufficient.
    Like you DO realize that I am pro High Elf? You DO realize I would be personally happy if BE's rejoined the alliance, right? And even so I think your idea is crap.

    You really think I MUST be pro BE-anti alliance to not like your idea, when again, your idea is just bad ffs.

  12. #23552
    Let's do a little "what if?" scenario with just the first four allied races.

    Let's say Blizzard decides to go the path of least effort but most number of options for everyone and basically has allied races inherit as much as possible (with a few exceptions here and there) from their parent races. That would leave mainly Vulpera needing stuff made specifically for them which, since they don't have hairstyles as an option at all, let's assume boils down to more fur colors & patterns, eye options, ear options, snout options, and jewelry.

    Breaking down our "what if?" regarding just the first four, we have:

    Lightforged: Gain the same skin color, hair color, hairstyle, and jewelry options as Draenei, with perhaps some different colors for the jewelry to fit more with their golden tattoos and light theme. Lightforged and standard Draenei retain distinct eye color options.

    Highmountain: Gain the skin and detail options that standard Tauren have (like the hair flowers), and both races get the other's unique face/body paints. High Mountain and standard Tauren retain distinct horns.

    Void Elves: Gain the same ear size options, facial hair, hair colors and hairstyles that Blood Elves have while Blood Elves gain Void Elf facial hair options, hair colors, and hairstyles (obviously without tentacles). Void Elves and Blood Elves retain distinction through very little outside of certain eye colors and jewelry. (I know this is a point of contention but this is just part of the "what if?").

    Nightborne: Gain all the Night Elf skin tones except for the Night Warrior one, all the Night Elf hairstyles and hair colors, face options, the non-vine jewelry, and eye color options except for the Night Warrior one. Night Elves and Nightborne retain a not insignificant amount of distinction by virtue of their model and idle stance differences, and Night Elf facial/body markings. (Again I realize this would be another point of contention, especially since this assumes the model stays as is).

    What happens if this is the path Blizzard chooses to go? Would we see Horde players really consider swapping to Alliance? How much outrage would there be over doing this? Even if a significant number of people did hop to Alliance, would they be endgame progression minded players, or people more inclined to RP and casual play? What are the pros and cons of Blizzard doing this?

    I'm genuinely curious to see how what people have to say about this "what if?" and what answers they have for the questions at the end.

  13. #23553
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Anyway, I've played horde many a time and I still do. Blood elves join the horde, cool story bro, I mean whatever, it doesn't sit right, doesn't make sense, but I'm just here to play the game, so if they want to have humans and orcs be buddies and fight dwarves and trolls... whatever, cool story.

    I can tell you this though, they were a lot more engaging when it was humans/elves vs orcs/trolls - sure these groups could get a whole bunch of new allies. Sure the horde isn't limited to races westerners would perceive as ugly - you gotta have eye candy both ways right. But it became less appealing when you started mixing the themes of the two factions up.

    If you ask me, it would be better for the horde's cool and beauty to come from something that isn't alliance in character/theme or presentation. Some of you have wrongly perceived I don't want the horde to have pretty stuff - you think this is motivated by some notion that the horde should all be bestial races westerners would consider ugly, have societies and civilizations westerners would consider primitive and savage ...

    Oh my God, you have got me TOTALLY wrong. Firstly, i don't perceive that as bad or ugly. I'm more a purist, if night elves are presented as fierce but highly civilised living in a rural setting but having an advanced culture and civilization that may be in ruins but the capability to rebuild - i want to see what I was told about and what was written for them - I don't want to see that anywhere else. - if you assume that I don't like rural you've got me totally wrong.

    I would have given the horde space goats instead, an advanced civilization, none human, but exotically beautiful. Because I'm not against the horde getting nice things, beautiful things or cool things, I'm against it getting alliance things, not because I hate it or have some massive issue with it, but because I feel it ruins it - ruins what I felt was special about warcraft - can play ESO and the other myriad titles out there if i want elves and orcs to be friends (I do play ESO too, not as much as wow though). Yet I've lived with it.

    I felt the horde needed a more human race like race anyway, decades ago I said as much and felt it was humans they should customise. That the forsaken, shouldn't all be bent over zombies, but slimmer upright versions maybe the vampire twist to them - as a means of solving the popularity issue. At the end of the day, I now realise, the horde needed image surgery. Whether you did it via humans, elves or draenei or nothing related to the alliance, you needed to work at it.

    I would have introduce half orcs, new races that I'd have made interesting and magnificent. Naz'jatar, Pandaria, Sky Reach of the Arrakoa are all examples of something not based on human or human like civilizations (like high elves and night elves have in the lore and game) that would have sufficed. And in fact still can.

    It just so happens that now, there is a great need for this sort of shift to happen - and it so happens that consolidating the faction themes could really help and improve both of them, with great projected long term benefits. Avoiding it because you don't want to take from the horde is not going to fix things. For the alliance to pull players from the horde, the horde is going to have to lose something to the alliance, the alliance is going to have to be more attractive, and as a dev, you need to do what it takes to make that happen. Just because your horde favouring cronies would be angry or upset shouldn't stop you.. do what needs to be done now, you can turn it back later if you feel you need to, but you can't be afraid of doing it if it can really solve such a problem.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Tanaria, you are just saying that because you're angry, and upset. And if other readers aren't smart enough to actually read the context, you rely on your good will stored up to sway them.. maybe that's your tactic.. they only need read to perceive what is going on.

    in game lore narratives are constructs, the devs can change to suit whatever purpose and players are meant to interpret to the narrative of the side they support, it means nothing. I'm not going to tell you what to think, I have my own views on the in game events and tbh, they bear no relation to what I'm saying or proposing.. because such things always demand new lore and narrative.

    or what do you think a new night elf city or carving up the zones as you have been talking about would mean. It would mean new lore, new narrative, this is not established lore, it is not canon, you cannot accuse anyone who suggests this or expands to include how they feel the story can lead to this as headcanon, that's not what the term is used for.

    A developer decides what needs to be done and then write the narrative to make it happen. In this case, high elves need to be playable, all my proposals have done was suggest a way this could happen in the narrative.. it is not lore, because it isn't written yet - this is why it is a proposal or a suggestion, it's not very logical (or sensible) to call it headcanon... it's not smart.

    - - - Updated - - -

    and for you too @Ardensao
    It won't.

    Alliance has pretty good racials that often you see horde players complaining are too good, that's not causing the shift to happen.

    in classic the horde had substantially better racials, and were still not the most popular faction, in fact were grossly out numbered. Racials is not the solution nor the problem, they can help lure and entice, but they are not the cause, and buffing the alliance ones won't solve your problem, it will just imbalance the game and cause another bout of complaints from all the competitive gamers - people who don't care about which faction is popular but just want to play the game.

    They have to look deeper, and if they do, they will see what I have seen, image and popularity. The alliance has a terrible image at the moment, it's the lame and dull faction. Do something that will excite the alliance, and make the alliance cool. High elves returning and the kaldorei rising up will definitely excite the alliance, giving them cool stuff and writing them and their races up cool that would definitely attract.

    They need something splashy and incredible.. at they have this in the high elves and the some total f everything the night elves are.. if they gather that together rather than spread it between the two factions, it can look incredible, short of that they'd have to give the alliance an impressive , beautiful and very cool race. Basically alliance dream. The beauty of the high elves, meets the civilization of the night elves, meets the coolness of the orcs, the nobility of the humans and the edginess of the illidari - but does all these things better.

    In addition to that, they'd have to live with the horde continuing to have alliance influences in it via the way the blood elves and Nightborne are - which I'm sure you're fine with, but that comes at a cost. If you ask me, the easier solution is just to give the damn high elves and do it properly, and fix the Kaldorei so they 're amazing - no more broken night elves, subdued and used to make the horde look good.
    all the covenant drama was because of a miniscule difference in DPS. a lot of people chose to join a covenant that they didn't like just for that.

    giving the alliance better racials would lead many people to change factions. if what you really want to increase the population of the alliance you just have to do that.

    the alliance complained about the horde racials until blizz started nerfing those racials.
    even now the alliance complains about the racial troll.

  14. #23554
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Putting my post from How to make the Alliance more popular here as well, as it tackles both the High elf issue and the imbalance issue.

    Thinking that Void elves, in the way they were released and the delay in giving them anything of a High elf setting apart from the High elf model, would help balance the faction imbalance, is plain naive. Void elves were released as blueberry elves with very little lore, and many people did not like that. Especially not the tentacles, many people find them disgusting? The only thing they got was warm skin tones and blue eyes recently. Ofcourse that will not fix the imbalance at all because a much better choice is still available on the Horde.

    If they want to see the slightest change in numbers between the factions they can start by giving some natural hairstyles and haircolours to Void elves, since it’s now probably too late to be adding separate High elves, so might as well make Void elves capable of looking like high elves. Ofcourse the hairstyles and haircolours can be borrowed from races different to Blood elves, such as Kul’tirans, dwarves etc.

    Then, there is the lore issue and the capitals issue. Void elves and Night elves no longer have a proper home. Night elves are homeless refugees in Stormwind, and Void elves have some tents in Telogrus, which really looks very limited. However, if Telogrus rift was to be expanded into a proper starter questing area, with shining void paths, dark void, shiny trees, and a capital inspired by both void elves and high elves to have dark blue and gold decor in it, as well as purple crystal decor, would make Void elves so much more appealing. And the restrictions for Allied races should be removed imo, as Blood elves are available for new players to choose right away, while void elves are still gated behind content.

    As stated, Night elves are homeless at the moment. They are a pride civilization and should rebuild from scratch. It has been said they are beginning to rebuild in Mount Hyjal. Great. Mount Hyjal is a beautiful area and could be expanded to include a Night elf capital and a questing area for Night elves. With crystal clear lakes, swans, new modeled tigers available in the capital, temples of Elune, houses etc. Tigers are super popular but their models are dating back to Vanilla.

    Now that customization for humans is practically complete, they should focus on reworking their character models. Ofcourse they will not be popular enough if they are just stuck with Vanilla models that look bulky (male human shoulders and arms) and have chunky thighs (hello female humans). Also, their running animations also need an update, females run like they have weed themselves lol. Check the humans available in character creation in Blade & Soul and Black Dessert, and then come tell me that our humans models look cool or pleasing to the eye in comparison.

    Dwarves received GREAT customization, but again no updates to animations. Female running and casting animations are as bad as humans’, even worse. Dating back to Vanilla. Same issue with Night elves, animations dating back to Vanilla and male Nelves look like they are having a headache when they cast.

    If all these things happened to better the Alliance ofcourse a lot more new players would be attracted, some casuals and semi-hardcores would probably switch over, and if free factions changes became available for a limited time at least, some hardcore guilds would consider it. Our racials have been fine for a long time, those are no longer the issue. Coolness and costs are the issues.
    I think there would be some sense on making VE more appealing and more accessible, but I think that at the end of the day, any aesthetic improvements a faction get are still going to be dampened by the meta level.

    The gameplay advantages are stacked up in favor of the Horde as a self-perpetuating machine. Better guilds on the Horde, better raiders, shorter queues, people that want to have a better experience will join the Horde.

    No matter how many aesthetic and convenience improvements the Alliance is given, it will hardly matter if there's a real eficiency impact of choosing faction.

    A huge sore spot on Ravenmoon's premise, is that they simply do not account for that at all, and believe that by restricting BE's on the Horde, people will flock to the alliance. That's dumb, but even premises that seek to augment the appeal of the alliance fail to address how to approach the meta game aspect.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Let's do a little "what if?" scenario with just the first four allied races.

    Let's say Blizzard decides to go the path of least effort but most number of options for everyone and basically has allied races inherit as much as possible (with a few exceptions here and there) from their parent races. That would leave mainly Vulpera needing stuff made specifically for them which, since they don't have hairstyles as an option at all, let's assume boils down to more fur colors & patterns, eye options, ear options, snout options, and jewelry.

    Breaking down our "what if?" regarding just the first four, we have:

    Lightforged: Gain the same skin color, hair color, hairstyle, and jewelry options as Draenei, with perhaps some different colors for the jewelry to fit more with their golden tattoos and light theme. Lightforged and standard Draenei retain distinct eye color options.

    Highmountain: Gain the skin and detail options that standard Tauren have (like the hair flowers), and both races get the other's unique face/body paints. High Mountain and standard Tauren retain distinct horns.

    Void Elves: Gain the same ear size options, facial hair, hair colors and hairstyles that Blood Elves have while Blood Elves gain Void Elf facial hair options, hair colors, and hairstyles (obviously without tentacles). Void Elves and Blood Elves retain distinction through very little outside of certain eye colors and jewelry. (I know this is a point of contention but this is just part of the "what if?").

    Nightborne: Gain all the Night Elf skin tones except for the Night Warrior one, all the Night Elf hairstyles and hair colors, face options, the non-vine jewelry, and eye color options except for the Night Warrior one. Night Elves and Nightborne retain a not insignificant amount of distinction by virtue of their model and idle stance differences, and Night Elf facial/body markings. (Again I realize this would be another point of contention, especially since this assumes the model stays as is).

    What happens if this is the path Blizzard chooses to go? Would we see Horde players really consider swapping to Alliance? How much outrage would there be over doing this? Even if a significant number of people did hop to Alliance, would they be endgame progression minded players, or people more inclined to RP and casual play? What are the pros and cons of Blizzard doing this?

    I'm genuinely curious to see how what people have to say about this "what if?" and what answers they have for the questions at the end.
    I have said for a long time that even if the Alliance gets literal BE options, we wouldn't see a massive exodus of BE players.

    The problem with the narrative that BE players are "held hostage" by the Horde is simplistic and infantalizing; do people really think that swaths of BE players that actually care about progression will flock to the alliance if they got to be the same model?

    There's a big blind spot in the discussions about making the alliance appealing; as long as the alliance is just lesser in terms of meta progression, we won't be seeing any major high end population shifts. We will see just more people roleplaying high elves.

  15. #23555
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I have said for a long time that even if the Alliance gets literal BE options, we wouldn't see a massive exodus of BE players.

    The problem with the narrative that BE players are "held hostage" by the Horde is simplistic and infantalizing; do people really think that swaths of BE players that actually care about progression will flock to the alliance if they got to be the same model?

    There's a big blind spot in the discussions about making the alliance appealing; as long as the alliance is just lesser in terms of meta progression, we won't be seeing any major high end population shifts. We will see just more people roleplaying high elves.
    I share you sentiments. As much as there's likely a significant swathe of players who'd appreciate carbon copy Blood Elves on the Alliance, I don't think it would actually cause a noticeable shift in population or Alliance endgame progression engagement. I mean we're more than half way there already in regards to visual similarities between Void and Blood Elves and no sigh of such shift has occurred yet.

    Still I'm curious what others think. I'm also curious about the pros and cons of such a move by Blizzard and the potential fallout it could cause.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2021-01-31 at 09:19 PM.

  16. #23556
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    ....
    Sometimes the corect solutions lies in the unthinkable

    And it is the foolish seeming things that are what it takes.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  17. #23557
    [QUOTE=MyWholeLifeIsThunder;52983834]
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I'm done with your disingenuous minimization of what you are proposing. I'm done engaging with your garbage idea.
    You claim to be a pro-High elfer Thunder, but you seem to be more interested in disagreeing with us and attempting to explain why our ideas will not work, but I have yet to see a post from you so far that makes any suggestions. All I have seen you do here in several of your posts is just bash @ravenmoon and call him names. We get it you don't agree with him, we do not agree with some of his ideas either, but instead of just bashing ravenmoon and telling us that our ideas will not work, why don't you try to propose some ideas for a change then?

  18. #23558
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    all the covenant drama was because of a miniscule difference in DPS. a lot of people chose to join a covenant that they didn't like just for that.

    giving the alliance better racials would lead many people to change factions. if what you really want to increase the population of the alliance you just have to do that.

    the alliance complained about the horde racials until blizz started nerfing those racials.
    even now the alliance complains about the racial troll.
    You know i respect that you feel that, I know others think that this is the case, but I'm not convinced it is sufficient. Racials is just one part of the argument, there are other sides, and racials matter to certain populations not everyone. Besides I think they are in a good place, don't touch them. There are other reasons and better solutions for this problem as I mentioned bove, but that's my opinion. I disagree with you.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  19. #23559
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I share you sentiments. As much as there's likely a significant swathe of players who'd appreciate carbon copy Blood Elves on the Alliance, I don't think it would actually cause a noticeable shift in population or Alliance endgame progression engagement. I mean we're more than half way there already in regards to visual similarities between Void and Blood Elves and no sigh of such shift has occurred yet.

    Still I'm curious what others think. I'm also curious about the pros and cons of such a move by Blizzard and the potential fallout it could cause.
    Indeed. A big issue is that a lot of BElf players just don't give a crap about the Alliance or actively dislike it lol.

  20. #23560
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I have said for a long time that even if the Alliance gets literal BE options, we wouldn't see a massive exodus of BE players.

    The problem with the narrative that BE players are "held hostage" by the Horde is simplistic and infantalizing; do people really think that swaths of BE players that actually care about progression will flock to the alliance if they got to be the same model?

    There's a big blind spot in the discussions about making the alliance appealing; as long as the alliance is just lesser in terms of meta progression, we won't be seeing any major high end population shifts. We will see just more people roleplaying high elves.
    I said that, a few 100 pages back. in response to those who felt that plyaable high elves would ruin the horde, they were just so keen to prevent the alliance getting the blood elf model, they lost perspective and didn't think.

    The horde will not collapse if alliance get high elves, I keep saying that, it won't, if blizzard give high elves in a cool and exciting way - emphasis on the cool and exciting way, show it up, make it good, enviable - make the alliance the only place ti experience that very alliance theme the elves have.. then it will draw just enough players over, but won't jeopardise the horde, especially if you keep the models on the horde.

    It is is image you are changing.. the alliance n=image needs to be improved drastically in the population. The population needs to be excited about playing the alliance without necessarily hating the horde. The most effective way to do this is the Return of the High elves and the Rise of the Kaldorei, because elves make the alliance lot most excited, and it's what they yearn for the most - it also suits them very well in the Warcraft universe because it was built around humans/elves/dwarves being one way, and orcs, goblins/trolls being another. This is the foundation all the lore and world has been spun around.. it's like it's hard wired.


    Sure you can change that, but it wont' be the same Warcraft, you'd break that Warcraft. Sure the new one could be good too for what it is, but it's going to be something different. The Klingons and the federation in star trek Next generation were allies afterall, star trek didn't fall apart - but star trek WAS NOT A GAME that had systems and a war mode based on two opposing themes (factions) at constant war with each other.

    Do you know how many times I have suggested blizzard remove the faction limitation, let orcs and humans mesh, or create more factions, go back to individual race focus.. do you know what there response is every time? This wouldn't be Warcraft, Warcraft is alliance vs horde - the core of the RTs, the human like races vs the orcs.

    Well if they want that properly, they need to fix what's going on.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

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