Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Vaedan]

Void elves weren't planned. They came about because they wanted to give the horde the fancy elves. It's clear htey wern'et well htought out, but they were a catchy choice to do.. and easy to make cool.

they still have a lot of development, they are really far behind their counterparts for so popular a race. at least as void elves.. but if you're not divorcing htem from blood elves and high elves, they have all that lore behind them - with the void the latest development in an off tangent group.

But isn't the case with all the elven groups? Nightborne are an ancient kaldorei group doing it's own thing independent of its origin people. Void leves are blood elves and high elves who've taken a new turn towards the void - neither of these groups (I mean nightborne and void elves) divorce themselves from their past.

this is why many consider Nightborne as night elf civilization elves, and void elves as Thalassian elves - neither of these are divorced from their original identities. one actually continues entirely in it, while the other just opens up a new avenue of magic, which one side banishes them for -but they don't culturally divulge. Nor do the Nightborne or the Danrassinas.

In fact the only group that culturally divulged from it's predecessors entirely were the high elves. That is why the Thalassian elf is a separate category of elf entirely to the night elf.. and why Nightborne isn't that way to night elf, nor void elf that way to blood or high elf.

Void elf culture is entirely Thalassian, nightborne culture is entirely kaldorei.

I actually believe Nightborne were supposed to go Alliance and San'layn Horde. It both makes sense, considering you could easily have Nightborne sheltering kaldorei in Suramar, which is city of birth for most of significant kaldorei we know. Whole Suramar campaign builds ties with night elves a lot with growing of arcan'dor, rebellion against power hungry ruler and later abandoning font of great magical power in order to start new way of life. As for San'layn, they are included in the first part of War campaign in BfA and Alliance learn of them and tries to find a way to neutralize them. If you think about it, it also makes really good sense, considering Sylvanas is the Warchief and she already taken Dark Rangers, another kind of undead elves, under her wing. San'layn would be good way to unlock Dark Ranger fantasy, which is long time request from Horde players. We all know that Blizz plans their features great way in advance, so these particular parts of the story were not entirely replaced, but eventually taken in other direction.

Void elves, while eventually have some appeal, feel as a rushed concept and their implementation is lacking as well. They still need a lot of work to be done. Faction elf swap gave us interesting moments, so I'm curious what else we will see. I'd still prefer Alliance nightborne and Horde san'layn though. but I eventually become quite fond of void elves. On the other hand, I still have really hard time to really accept nightborne within the Horde. They feel really out of place in the faction.

[Beloren]

@Vaedan
Blizzard are smart, I think they realised nothing short of high elves would make up for nightborne going horde. and i think they spied Ravenmoon' or Mace's poll that asked alliance players if they'd be okay to get high elves in exchange for nightborne. But blizzard are also cruel, they decided to give high elves with a twist.. till this day i'm not sure whether the motivation was genuinely trying to do something cool, or just plain out right reluctant to give the blonde elf model to the alliance seeing it was the horde's most prized possession. [Nvm the irony of an alliance based race been the horde's most prized possession - for some, or the thrill of the alliances' most prized possession becoming the horde - for some]

Question is would you have preferred the Nightborne's/San'layn offering instead? or the nightborne /High elf offering?

I know most alliance believe that neither Nightborne, nor void elves or high elves should be horde, and blizzard should move away from dumping elves on the horde. It is likely that some horde believe that too the elf haters anyway. But elves are no the horde, and if they're not willing to change them, why not give blood elves some friends?

I admit nightborne were designed for the night elf story and night elf lore - but what their fans don't realise, is that when it comes to joining factions, it's not an automatic guarantee. The minute blood elves went horde, the alliance could no longer guarantee it's groups won't make the transition for the horde. i guess people like Ravenmoon felt that the horde was popular enough by Legion, so they weren't in danger of the horde stealing the Nightborne.. and we know what happened..

But the premise was different, yes the horde were much more popular now, and this fact allowed void elves to happen on the alliance so that nightborne could go horde.

I actually believe Nightborne were supposed to go Alliance and San'layn Horde. It both makes sense, considering you could easily have Nightborne sheltering kaldorei in Suramar, which is city of birth for most of significant kaldorei we know. Whole Suramar campaign builds ties with night elves a lot with growing of arcan'dor, rebellion against power hungry ruler and later abandoning font of great magical power in order to start new way of life. As for San'layn, they are included in the first part of War campaign in BfA and Alliance learn of them and tries to find a way to neutralize them. If you think about it, it also makes really good sense, considering Sylvanas is the Warchief and she already taken Dark Rangers, another kind of undead elves, under her wing. San'layn would be good way to unlock Dark Ranger fantasy, which is long time request from Horde players. We all know that Blizz plans their features great way in advance, so these particular parts of the story were not entirely replaced, but eventually taken in other direction.

Void elves, while eventually have some appeal, feel as a rushed concept and their implementation is lacking as well. They still need a lot of work to be done. Faction elf swap gave us interesting moments, so I'm curious what else we will see. I'd still prefer Alliance nightborne and Horde san'layn though. but I eventually become quite fond of void elves. On the other hand, I still have really hard time to really accept nightborne within the Horde. They feel really out of place in the faction.

We might very well have had more night elf presence in Suramar if they had carried on showing the group and not taking them all into the horde. Notice how all night elf engagement with the nightborne just came ot an end after the original story ended in 7.1 - the devs changed bits of the 7.1 story to make Liadrin appear more sympathetic, and Tyrande replaced Vereesa for the alliance side and was given harsher lines.

There is then no longer any contact with Farodin, the Moonguard, the Val'Sharah druids and priests, night eyes, they all disappear.. this is because Nightborne are now horde, and night elf interaction is a no go.. so poof gone.

however if they were neutral, we'd have seen all of this caveat.

San'layn would have ben the obvious choice for blood elves, connecting the Forsaken to the blood elves even more strongly. Alas it wasn't to be, but though rushed a concept, many of you guys seem to find void elves quite cool. I take it you are very satisfied with them and basically only crave more lore as the main problem?

[Kyriani]

Void Elves came into the game few expansions too early. They have no story right now because their story will happen in the future Light vs. Void expansion that might be as "soon" as 10.0, or later.

I think void elves could have happened exactly when they did, only I think their origin story needed to be different and happen during the legion expansion rather than after.

Just a hypothetical here but, what if some of the high elves that were at the Suramar siege had included Umbric, had a bigger role, and followed along to Argus. Now let's say that during the Argus story these high elves are involved in a similar event to the current void elf unlock scenario, but instead of Umbric and friends being in pursuit of knowledge about the void, they were simply swept up in Durzaan's trap as bait for Alleria. Alleria and the player rescue those elves but they are in a tenuous state that requires constant care. Locus Walker keeps them stable, but Alleria needs more power to save them. So Alleria's arc on Argus becomes two-fold. To get that piece of the crown from the temple, and take L'ura's power to save the afflicted high elves.

She saves them, the Argussian Reach reputation is unlocked, and we see the newly minted void elves helping the fight against the Legion for the rest of the expansion. Then BfA pre-patch happens and we get an entirely new unlock scenario, perhaps involving the claiming of Telogrus as the new void elf base of operations and providing some exposition on Alleria and Locus Walker teaching these void elves how to master their newfound power.

For a bit further hypothesizing, during BfA the void elves could have played a bigger role during the N'zoth patch, and when SL pre-patch came with the new customization and death knights for all, then the high elf wayfarer npc's could have been added to Telogrus and explained by saying they are people who experience N'zoth's visions and sought to master the void rather than be overwhelmed by it, thus joining Alleria's cause. That ties up a lot of the loose ends void elves are currently saddled with.

Something like the above fiction would have felt more organic (at least to me). The initial batch of void elves would have been present during legion for at least as long as the lightforged prior to unlock, the Argussian Reach rep would have made sense as a requirement for them, their origin and the groundwork for future recruits would have been clearly established, and as a bonus, the initial batch of void elves would have been comprised of actual alliance high elves rather than renegade horde blood elves.

[Vaedan]

@Vaedan
Blizzard are smart, I think they realised nothing short of high elves would make up for nightborne going horde. and i think they spied Ravenmoon' or Mace's poll that asked alliance players if they'd be okay to get high elves in exchange for nightborne. But blizzard are also cruel, they decided to give high elves with a twist.. till this day i'm not sure whether the motivation was genuinely trying to do something cool, or just plain out right reluctant to give the blonde elf model to the alliance seeing it was the horde's most prized possession. [Nvm the irony of an alliance based race been the horde's most prized possession - for some, or the thrill of the alliances' most prized possession becoming the horde - for some]

Question is would you have preferred the Nightborne's/San'layn offering instead? or the nightborne /High elf offering?

I know most alliance believe that neither Nightborne, nor void elves or high elves should be horde, and blizzard should move away from dumping elves on the horde. It is likely that some horde believe that too the elf haters anyway. But elves are no the horde, and if they're not willing to change them, why not give blood elves some friends?

I admit nightborne were designed for the night elf story and night elf lore - but what their fans don't realise, is that when it comes to joining factions, it's not an automatic guarantee. The minute blood elves went horde, the alliance could no longer guarantee it's groups won't make the transition for the horde. i guess people like Ravenmoon felt that the horde was popular enough by Legion, so they weren't in danger of the horde stealing the Nightborne.. and we know what happened..

But the premise was different, yes the horde were much more popular now, and this fact allowed void elves to happen on the alliance so that nightborne could go horde.

Adding blood elves to the Horde was kind of unexpected and it shifted the image of Horde greatly. I can remember blood elves not being accepted warmly at first. They become quickly popular though. As for me, I think it hurted Horde integrity by adding highly civilized and sophisticated race to the primal and wild faction. I don't mean Horde can't have these features, but compare let's say Zandalari and High elves and tell what fits with the image of the Horde more.

Personal biases aside, blood elves are Horde race now. That's a fact. Elves are not faction specific thing anymore. Everybody should accept that. There is no point fighting that. Night elves and blood elves made their way to their perspective factions. Nightborne actually offer very little new to the Horde (it already have aristocratic magic oriented elves), on the other hand, they could open very interesting posibilties alongside kaldorei. It would be actually pretty nice reunification and culmination of kaldorei storyline. On the Horde.... not that much. San'layn on the Horde would be in similar position of two distanced groups of same nation getting together and overoming their differences.

So yes, I would still accept Alliance Nightborne and Horde San'layn.

We might very well have had more night elf presence in Suramar if they had carried on showing the group and not taking them all into the horde. Notice how all night elf engagement with the nightborne just came ot an end after the original story ended in 7.1 - the devs changed bits of the 7.1 story to make Liadrin appear more sympathetic, and Tyrande replaced Vereesa for the alliance side and was given harsher lines.

There is then no longer any contact with Farodin, the Moonguard, the Val'Sharah druids and priests, night eyes, they all disappear.. this is because Nightborne are now horde, and night elf interaction is a no go.. so poof gone.

however if they were neutral, we'd have seen all of this caveat.

San'layn would have ben the obvious choice for blood elves, connecting the Forsaken to the blood elves even more strongly. Alas it wasn't to be, but though rushed a concept, many of you guys seem to find void elves quite cool. I take it you are very satisfied with them and basically only crave more lore as the main problem?

Good observations. It makes my theory even more possible

Yes, some of us eventually find void elves cool. They have their potential. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't say I'm very satisfied with them, I'd still welcome some more customization options for them, but I generaly like them so far. As you say, lack of lore is definitely one of the biggest issues with the race.

[Beloren]

Adding blood elves to the Horde was kind of unexpected and it shifted the image of Horde greatly. I can remember blood elves not being accepted warmly at first. They become quickly popular though. As for me, I think it hurted Horde integrity by adding highly civilized and sophisticated race to the primal and wild faction. I don't mean Horde can't have these features, but compare let's say Zandalari and High elves and tell what fits with the image of the Horde more.

Personal biases aside, blood elves are Horde race now. That's a fact. Elves are not faction specific thing anymore. Everybody should accept that. There is no point fighting that. Night elves and blood elves made their way to their perspective factions. Nightborne actually offer very little new to the Horde (it already have aristocratic magic oriented elves), on the other hand, they could open very interesting posibilties alongside kaldorei. It would be actually pretty nice reunification and culmination of kaldorei storyline. On the Horde.... not that much. San'layn on the Horde would be in similar position of two distanced groups of same nation getting together and overoming their differences.

So yes, I would still accept Alliance Nightborne and Horde San'layn.




Good observations. It makes my theory even more possible

Yes, some of us eventually find void elves cool. They have their potential. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't say I'm very satisfied with them, I'd still welcome some more customization options for them, but I generaly like them so far. As you say, lack of lore is definitely one of the biggest issues with the race.

Nice read. Thnx

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

That would be nice, but it flies in the face of what allied races were originally intended to be. In concept, allied races were supposed to be quick and easy to add races that required little upkeep after the initial investment. The formula is basically: race has either existed previously as NPC's (zandalari, kul tirans, dark iron, mag'har) or are a new race introduced in a new expansion (lightforged, nightborne, highmountain, vulpera, mechagnomes), race is featured in content, content culminates into race being unlockable as an allied race, little effort invested in a starting area (typically reused assets if they even get one at all), no new zones necessary to be made (usually). From that point forward the foundation for the allied race is laid and blizzard can decide if and when to feature members of that allied race doing things in the story going forward.

That formula basically works for every allied race except for void elves. Void elves, insofar as the playable race goes, weren't featured in legion at all. They don't exist until after their unlock scenario and that presents a problem right there. While every other allied race from legion had screen time prior to being playable, void elves (the playable race), did not. So void elves had little to no foundation laid beyond Alleria's Argus arc, which if we're being honest, had little to nothing to do with Umbric, his followers, or their transformation. At the time of release void elves also could look nothing like Alleria making it a hard sell to call her Argus story arc the foundational first appearance of void elves. The new skin tone options sort of help in that regard, but even more than two years later we still don't know exactly how new void elves are coming into being.

Void elves require additional lore to fill in certain (in some cases vital) gaps in what we know about them. No other allied race has questions about their sustainability. Even lightforged have their unlock scenario which basically takes you through the (repeatable) process by which they become uplifted. Umbric and his followers on the other hand, were transformed due to an accident during a ritual that was intended to transform them into void ethereals. I am hard pressed to believe that Umbric or Alleria would try to recreate such a thing when Alleria proves there is another, safer, way to gain mastery over the void. But blizzard has yet to tell us what exactly it is that new recruits go through to be come void elves.

Heck, we still don't even know if the high elves and blood elves in Telogrus are actually becoming void elves, or if their just there to learn about the void. I mean, the implication that they are in fact the newer generation of void elves is there, but we have no in-game confirmation of this. Again the new skin tone options help here, but actual in-game lore is required (imo) to really lay a solid foundation for void elves going forward.

Speaking of Telogrus, that was a new (albeit small) zone that blizzard had to create for void elves. They couldn't just reuse an existing zone like every other allied race. While that worked in favor of the void elves (I love Telogrus Rift), it also serves as an example of why an allied race needs to be thoughtfully planned out and featured in game before being unlockable (imo). What's really funny is, if Blizzard had simply gone with high elves instead of void elves, they would have had to do a lot less work (they could have started right in Stormwind) and the lore issues plaguing void elves would not exist.

That's not to say I don't like void elves. I think they have the potential to be incredibly interesting. I like the concept of mastering the void and the void aesthetics like entropic embrace, tentacle hair options (though I'd prefer the tentacle be a toggle so all all hairstyles could have them or not per taste), and even the original skin tones on some characters, but lore-wise they really need more development so they fit into the world better.

Even if blizzard just came right out and said those high elf wayfarers and blood elf scholars are becoming void elves through a process similar to Alleria's, that alone would settle key outstanding questions about void elves and how they will continue to survive going forward. It also wouldn't hurt if they told us why high elves are joining. It's easy to chalk up blood elves as being interested in any type of magic, regardless of danger (Umbric and company are a prime example of that), but avoiding questionable magical practices is kind of one of the primary reasons that high elves even exist on the alliance to begin with. Sure, blizzard could just tell us that post-legion or post-fourth war, some high elves want to be more proactive in helping the alliance, and joining Alleria is the way they have chosen to do so, but blizzard has to tell us that and not just leave it up to head canon.

Honestly this sums up pretty perfectly the issue with Void Elves. Nothing really to add tho this beyond that they just feel "unfinished" in a way no other playable race does. They are a concept, and idea -that could go to incredible places- but almost 3 years in they remain as bare bones as they have been since their introduction.

- - - Updated - - -

Personal biases aside, blood elves are Horde race now. That's a fact. Elves are not faction specific thing anymore. Everybody should accept that. There is no point fighting that. Night elves and blood elves made their way to their perspective factions. Nightborne actually offer very little new to the Horde (it already have aristocratic magic oriented elves), on the other hand, they could open very interesting posibilties alongside kaldorei. It would be actually pretty nice reunification and culmination of kaldorei storyline. On the Horde.... not that much. San'layn on the Horde would be in similar position of two distanced groups of same nation getting together and overoming their differences.

So yes, I would still accept Alliance Nightborne and Horde San'layn.

One thing I believe is very appealing of Nightborne choosing to join the BE's is that it shows that political affiliation is a lot more relevant than "race". That just gives the world more nuance, it doesn't presume Nightborne "should" reunite with the kaldorei/are part of the kaldorei storyline, that they have some sort of in universe agency of choosing what of their kind to follow.

But that brings us to the HE/BE schism, which is kinda the point of this thread. The whole point of the discussion is that HE's exemplify how not every member of a society would follow its leaders, how dissent grows and splinter groups are formed. Modern High Elves are the dissenting faction of their mainstream that came about a very volatile political moment, which is very similar to the NB situation.

We could make the case that NB got pretty into unity after Elisande's rule, but it's just hard to believe everyone would be on board with such a polarizing decision -choose a side- without any dissent, specially after Elisande's iron fist. Is it Thalyssra just more of the same then? The fact that there's no dissent, no exploration of any number of NB dissatisfied with joining the Horde just feels eerily similar to the boat High Elves are in, just more acknowledged by the narrative.

But that's the thing, besides Pandaren, WoW has done so little to address this political nuance within the "races", when so much depth could be added by showing that not every "race" has the same politics. And it's not just a possibility; we keep seeing these groups pop around the world(s), it's a certain part of the narrative, one that has never been able to be experienced by the PC, now only *tangentially* with VE's being able to look closer to HE's.

Perfect case scenario for me, we get more AR's that cross this faction divide -and as AR's should be, they would be easy to implement with reused assets-

Dream scenario? A group of dissenting Nightborne officially join the Alliance, but Suramar (city and zone) strive to remain neutral for elfdom, even when the government -and most of the city proper- is still Horde Aligned -Sorta like Quel'danas- it would allow Suramar to expand its cultural and commercial influence in a manner similar to goblins.

That group of Alliance Nightborne could ally with the remaining Moon Guard and Highborne and reclaim the Moon Guard Stronghold, and set it up as finally a new arcane cultural center for the alliance leaning Highborne and its descendants, and this is where the Alliance NB AR would start.

I like the Horde/Alliance conflict as a back drop, but I don't think it should be the only political axis in the world, and I'd love that we had kaldorei/highborne politics
happening concurrently. Horde an Alliance still being a thing, but becoming less of the predominant exterior relationships codifier. Like, Night Elves and NB do join their respective factions in battle, but their new treaties prevent them from adding their forces -officially at least- to conflicts into each other's territories.

I guess I just really want more politic complexity.

[Kyriani]

They are a concept, and idea -that could go to incredible places- but almost 3 years in they remain as bare bones as they have been since their introduction.

That's exactly how I feel. I see so much potential for them but they were handled so poorly and then basically forgotten.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

That's exactly how I feel. I see so much potential for them but they were handled so poorly and then basically forgotten.

The literally don't work for the same reason all the other AR's do; we didn't get to experience their narrative as a people or group, just Alleria's tangentially thematically relevant personal arc; and what irks me the most about that is that Krokuun and the rest of Argus did a suitable job to set up the LFD -if albeit a bit thinly- and they didn't do the same for the Void Elves as a people, only the similar concepts with Alleria, which to me points out they were simply a late or rushed decision.

High Elves on their own, or High Elves as the origin of the VE's would have worked much better, cause it really is just how the Dark Iron Dwarves worked; not really with a specific zone storyline dedicated to them, but a constant presence and development through the expansions.

There are so many missed opportunities with the Void Elves, and while just setting Umbric's group earlier would have solved a lot of the issues, simply making the Void Elves out of thalassians that had been followers of Alleria choosing the same path would have been the easiest way to give continuity to characters and relationships already established -while still allowing to introduce a character like Umbric-

We could have seen a lot of the High Elf NPC's of Allerian Stronghold returning to follow Alleria, throw in some Silver Covenant members and Umbric's group, and we would have had such a more more cohesive and deep origin for the Void Elves than what we got.

I mean, if the whole scenario had ended up revolving around this group retaking the Windrunner Spire AND teleporting it to Telogrus as a means of escape from the BE response to Alliance encroachment, that would have been so cool.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

They are not High elves....

Alleria succeeded in killing Durzaan, and while their minds and souls were still their own, the sin'dorei had been transformed by the ritual: now, having consumed the void as Alleria had, they had achieved new powers as well as a dangerous susceptibility to its whispers. Alleria immediately offered her aid, wanting to help her transformed kin understand and control their new forms and powers; and Umbric, apologizing for his arrogance, happily accepted. Since Umbric felt that Silvermoon had turned its back on him and his people long ago, Umbric and the void elves swore their allegiance to Alleria and the Alliance.
Source: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Void_elf

They are blood elves....Now:

Under Alleria's guidance, as well as the tutelage and instruction of her own teacher, Locus-Walker, the void elves made strides in mastering their nature. They claimed Telogrus as their base of operations, which has also been visited by blood elf Silvermoon Scholars and high elf wayfarers curious to learn more about the Void from their transformed kin.

Aspiring void elf adventurers are sent to Stormwind from Telogrus, urged on by Alleria and Umbric; the ren'dorei have established a presence in the city. There they meet Anduin Wrynn, who assures them that while the path they walk may be testing, they will never face the darkness alone, for the Alliance stands with them.[1] More high elf spellcasters were seen around them.

The void elves are not recruiting, necessarily, but they are open to those who share similar interests. Their research has attracted other elves to Telogrus, with both Silvermoon scholars and high elven wayfarers arriving to study the ways of the Void. They are trying to find out if they can reproduce the original process that transformed the void elves.

They are just visiting...But they are not Void Elves. So they are not the ones we are using. We are using Blood elves.

Now, don't blame me for them not being High Elves. Blizzard choose that....Why?. Idk....

Now, if we could ask for a new race called "High Elves", that would make sense.

Way to miss the point.

I'm literally talking about how narratively lackluster and rushed the VE introduction was, and how hypothetically could have worked with already set up elements, and you keep repeating lore factiods without regard to the actual context of what I am arguing.

Which is totally fine if it's not what you want to talk about, but please, if you are going to have discussion, argue what is being talked about, NOT change the subject.

Now, don't blame me for them not being High Elves. Blizzard choose that....Why?. Idk....

That "Idk" is literally what I am talking about; my issues are regarding of how badly executed VE's are as an AR, trying to understand why, and hypothesize how they could have been integrated more seamlessly than we got.

Which if it's not what you wanna talk/care about, you don't have to.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Well, you got your Blood elf model into the alliance. It could have been worst. Now, they where cooking this since Legion, with the introduction of Alleria. So, my only guess would be, that they don't want to give you "High Elves" to be playable. Simple as that.

Why? No idea.

And what does it have to do with what I am talking about, which is the underwhelming implementation of Void Elves as an Allied Race?

Do you get that "Issues with VE's as an AR" and "HE's as a playable race would be neat" are two, albeit tangentially related, separate arguments/issues? They do come hand in hand in the conversation because it's hard to not see VE's as an undercooked attempt of address the later, but even divorced of that implication, Void Elves as an Allied Race just have a plethora of issues, inconsistencies, concerns and criticisms on their own, beyond any comparison to High Elves.

That we get something close to a High Elf aesthetically does squat for fixing or addressing the problems of VE conceptualization and implementation.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

What do you suggest? To just randomly change them into High Elves?....just like that?

Blizzard already gave you blue/purple Blood Elves....I mean, the the implementation of how VE where introduced in the game is poor, is because the lore is boring af. I have been reading it many times, and i dont get it how they came with it....how does they believe it was an awesome idea to create an AR with such a poor lore.

But changing the VE into High Elves....I don't think it will work...Not with that lore, they already made. Otherwise those words would be different.

Seriously, are you even reading what one says or just go off based on whatever you assume someone is saying?

Do you get that "Issues with VE's as an AR" and "HE's as a playable race would be neat" are two, albeit tangentially related, separate arguments/issues?

VE's could be given more depth by separating them even further from BE's, still could fix their lore without ever leaning on the HE issue.

The other issue altogether that you have is your inability to see the VE's as beyond what they have been presented as, because somehow looking like Alleria would make them into High Elves. Like, why does Void Elf identity SHOULD be so intrinsically defined by a limited aesthetic when Alleria herself doesn't look like the rest of them? It's like you harp on "people wanting to look like a High Elf" when you yourself seem to be fixated on the idea that aesthetics define the race, which again, is entirely arbitrary and innacurate to the lore itself, because Alleria.

So we are back on the "why"; why do you associate aesthetic overlap with thematic depth and identity?

Does it really boil down to people like you being unable to look past the aesthetics? Which is like, anathema of this place you are, where one of the main points is that a lot of us want high elves because we see them as thematically distinct than blood elves, thus, a lot of people are of the theme/identity is not defined by aesthetics view, contrasted with your rigid aesthetic segregation view.

VE's are not working, no, adding natural colors won't fix them, but neither does keeping their aesthetic limited. Why go against expanded options when it comes to customization? Specially when such opportunities can serve to expand Void Elf lore, such as a way to explore Void Elves recruiting more members?

Think Mark, Think! You are cognizant that Void Elf lore is lackluster, yet continue to dismiss any potential they could have within the narrative because "It's not what Void Elves are"

[shoc]

Blood Elves were a solution to massive faction and player-gender imbalance. Below is demographics data from 2005 - results from two sources side by side.

It's 2005 and you're a TBC dev. What game design decision would you make if you were looking at this data?


Source

If Ogres, Pandaren, Goblins, were ever on the table they weren't for long after looking at this data. It's obvious that players were massively gravitating towards the most humanoid and 'pretty' races. The Horde NEEDED an attractive, humanoid race option.

A second point, at the time of these statistics, WoW players were demographically 84% male, 16% female. According to this survey from 2020, WoW players were 58.53% male, 36.31% female, 3.33% trans. Females overwhelmingly played a female main character, at 93.12%.

So Blood Elves on the Horde solved two problems - improving A:H faction balance and also improving the Male:Female player imbalance.

Any lore that exists was to suit the above rationale.

[Vaedan]

One thing I believe is very appealing of Nightborne choosing to join the BE's is that it shows that political affiliation is a lot more relevant than "race". That just gives the world more nuance, it doesn't presume Nightborne "should" reunite with the kaldorei/are part of the kaldorei storyline, that they have some sort of in universe agency of choosing what of their kind to follow.

But that brings us to the HE/BE schism, which is kinda the point of this thread. The whole point of the discussion is that HE's exemplify how not every member of a society would follow its leaders, how dissent grows and splinter groups are formed. Modern High Elves are the dissenting faction of their mainstream that came about a very volatile political moment, which is very similar to the NB situation.

We could make the case that NB got pretty into unity after Elisande's rule, but it's just hard to believe everyone would be on board with such a polarizing decision -choose a side- without any dissent, specially after Elisande's iron fist. Is it Thalyssra just more of the same then? The fact that there's no dissent, no exploration of any number of NB dissatisfied with joining the Horde just feels eerily similar to the boat High Elves are in, just more acknowledged by the narrative.

But that's the thing, besides Pandaren, WoW has done so little to address this political nuance within the "races", when so much depth could be added by showing that not every "race" has the same politics. And it's not just a possibility; we keep seeing these groups pop around the world(s), it's a certain part of the narrative, one that has never been able to be experienced by the PC, now only *tangentially* with VE's being able to look closer to HE's.

Perfect case scenario for me, we get more AR's that cross this faction divide -and as AR's should be, they would be easy to implement with reused assets-

Dream scenario? A group of dissenting Nightborne officially join the Alliance, but Suramar (city and zone) strive to remain neutral for elfdom, even when the government -and most of the city proper- is still Horde Aligned -Sorta like Quel'danas- it would allow Suramar to expand its cultural and commercial influence in a manner similar to goblins.

That group of Alliance Nightborne could ally with the remaining Moon Guard and Highborne and reclaim the Moon Guard Stronghold, and set it up as finally a new arcane cultural center for the alliance leaning Highborne and its descendants, and this is where the Alliance NB AR would start.

I like the Horde/Alliance conflict as a back drop, but I don't think it should be the only political axis in the world, and I'd love that we had kaldorei/highborne politics
happening concurrently. Horde an Alliance still being a thing, but becoming less of the predominant exterior relationships codifier. Like, Night Elves and NB do join their respective factions in battle, but their new treaties prevent them from adding their forces -officially at least- to conflicts into each other's territories.

I guess I just really want more politic complexity.

I agree that this faction shifts give some fresh air to the storytelling, or at least have potential to do so. The problem is that Blizzard is reluctant to use this potential. Just look at BfA. This expansion could look very different storywise. Large global war and recruiting of new allies to your faction is definitely one of the best times to delve into racial stories. Blizzard told us that BfA will be faction pride expansion. I mean, they definitely had the effort, but it ended up really awkward eventually and I think a lot of their plans were rushed in favor of Shadowlands.

The main problem is that WoW storyline is narrated through very few repeating characters. Whole BfA was mostly Sylvanas, Anduin and Jaina showdown. Everything gravitated around these characters. Shadowlands main Jailer plot once again use these characters (and few more). That huge focus on individual characters leave less space for building spotlight for races. That also lead to most races feel undeveloped for years, lacking any progress, any new significant characters beside faction leaders (if your race is even lucky enough to have one) and overall static world where only 3-5 people are doing something grand and the rest is just following.

In BfA, each race had chance to express their part in the world and deal with/or ignite some new racial issues. The only races which got some attention were kul tirans/zandalari, mostly only because their nations were part of the central story of the expansion. Until this approach in storytelling change, we will never have meaningful racial stories and development. Look, even humans are stucked in one place, with most of the spotlight going directly to Anduin and his personal story. Sylvanas leaving Forsaken left them with almost no established characters to lead them, so Lilian and Calia, previously neutral characters, had to be pushed into Forsaken ranks.

[Beloren]

I think void elves could have happened exactly when they did, only I think their origin story needed to be different and happen during the legion expansion rather than after.

Just a hypothetical here but, what if some of the high elves that were at the Suramar siege had included Umbric, had a bigger role, and followed along to Argus. Now let's say that during the Argus story these high elves are involved in a similar event to the current void elf unlock scenario, but instead of Umbric and friends being in pursuit of knowledge about the void, they were simply swept up in Durzaan's trap as bait for Alleria. Alleria and the player rescue those elves but they are in a tenuous state that requires constant care. Locus Walker keeps them stable, but Alleria needs more power to save them. So Alleria's arc on Argus becomes two-fold. To get that piece of the crown from the temple, and take L'ura's power to save the afflicted high elves.

She saves them, the Argussian Reach reputation is unlocked, and we see the newly minted void elves helping the fight against the Legion for the rest of the expansion. Then BfA pre-patch happens and we get an entirely new unlock scenario, perhaps involving the claiming of Telogrus as the new void elf base of operations and providing some exposition on Alleria and Locus Walker teaching these void elves how to master their newfound power.

For a bit further hypothesizing, during BfA the void elves could have played a bigger role during the N'zoth patch, and when SL pre-patch came with the new customization and death knights for all, then the high elf wayfarer npc's could have been added to Telogrus and explained by saying they are people who experience N'zoth's visions and sought to master the void rather than be overwhelmed by it, thus joining Alleria's cause. That ties up a lot of the loose ends void elves are currently saddled with.

Something like the above fiction would have felt more organic (at least to me). The initial batch of void elves would have been present during legion for at least as long as the lightforged prior to unlock, the Argussian Reach rep would have made sense as a requirement for them, their origin and the groundwork for future recruits would have been clearly established, and as a bonus, the initial batch of void elves would have been comprised of actual alliance high elves rather than renegade horde blood elves.

Nice read. I’m not sure I’d have liked that better but interesting to see how you would build in the actual lore they gave to flesh it out and make it more involving.

What if they gave the void elves a level 1-20 seeing they are the only allied race that has no previous lore or dedicated zone to build on. How would you flesh out or expand their story to properly show them in an opening zone?

Highmountain had the whole Highmountain quest line
Nightborne - heavy involvement in a full zone for 7.0 and full 7.1 focus
Lightforged - active through all of 7.3 even tho their focus was a bit off ie not like Highmountain who were the centre of their zone
Zandalari - basically 3 zones and 2 patches on them
Kul’tirans - Wc2 lore, classic involvement, 3 BFA zones
Mag’har Orcs - 2 expansion focuses ie TBC and WoD
Dark Iron Dwarves: 2 zone focus (Searing Gorge and Burning Steppes, also massive dungeon BRD and integral in Dearf starting story.
Mechagon Gnomes: intro in game story and a small zone with full sequence quest lines and mega dungeon + full reputation
Vulpera: Vol’dun zone to properly build their story.

Void elves get intro quest to join like all allied races. It’s not extensive or longer.

[Kyriani]

Nice read. I’m not sure I’d have liked that better but interesting to see how you would build in the actual lore they gave to flesh it out and make it more involving.

What if they gave the void elves a level 1-20 seeing they are the only allied race that has no previous lore or dedicated zone to build on. How would you flesh out or expand their story to properly show them in an opening zone?

Highmountain had the whole Highmountain quest line
Nightborne - heavy involvement in a full zone for 7.0 and full 7.1 focus
Lightforged - active through all of 7.3 even tho their focus was a bit off ie not like Highmountain who were the centre of their zone
Zandalari - basically 3 zones and 2 patches on them
Kul’tirans - Wc2 lore, classic involvement, 3 BFA zones
Mag’har Orcs - 2 expansion focuses ie TBC and WoD
Dark Iron Dwarves: 2 zone focus (Searing Gorge and Burning Steppes, also massive dungeon BRD and integral in Dearf starting story.
Mechagon Gnomes: intro in game story and a small zone with full sequence quest lines and mega dungeon + full reputation
Vulpera: Vol’dun zone to properly build their story.

Void elves get intro quest to join like all allied races. It’s not extensive or longer.

I personally don't think giving void elves a 1-20 experience would be fair to other allied races. I also won't say my hypothetical scenario is the best way void elves could have been integrated but it surely feels a damn sight better than what we ended up getting.

That's not to say blizzard can't fix what's wrong with void elves currently. All they really have to do is give us some in game mention of just how the new recruits are gaining their powers, and maybe some dialogue blurbs from the wayfarers and scholars giving us an idea of their motivations for joining the void elves that go beyond just "a path denied is now open to us" which, while vague and brief, may not be out of place for the scholars, but certain makes little sense for the wayfarers. After that, void elves need some foundational elements laid so we know who they want to be (as a people), what their goals are going forward, and how that integrates with, not only the alliance as a whole, but their alliance high elven kin in particular.

What I would like to see is all allied races being given the choice to either start at 10 in the typical starting area for that allied race, or being able to start at 1 and get to 10 through the exile's reach starting experience.

[Beloren]

I personally don't think giving void elves a 1-20 experience would be fair to other allied races. I also won't say my hypothetical scenario is the best way void elves could have been integrated but it surely feels a damn sight better than what we ended up getting.

That's not to say blizzard can't fix what's wrong with void elves currently. All they really have to do is give us some in game mention of just how the new recruits are gaining their powers, and maybe some dialogue blurbs from the wayfarers and scholars giving us an idea of their motivations for joining the void elves that go beyond just "a path denied is now open to us" which, while vague and brief, may not be out of place for the scholars, but certain makes little sense for the wayfarers. After that, void elves need some foundational elements laid so we know who they want to be (as a people), what their goals are going forward, and how that integrates with, not only the alliance as a whole, but their alliance high elven kin in particular.

What I would like to see is all allied races being given the choice to either start at 10 in the typical starting area for that allied race, or being able to start at 1 and get to 10 through the exile's reach starting experience.

Do you think they should have given allied races an option to do 1-10?

Would a 1-10 for void elves only be unfair given ALL the other allied races have zones of far more time required to explore them?

Or should they rather give void elves a level 70 zone next expac that effectively does the same thing. Make it detailed and expansive, almost suramar style.

Maybe something that invovled a new void elf capital whether it's a pure voi elf city, a re-purposed city or sharing with Silvermoon or even Deatholme rebuilt into a void elf city (that would be an interesting option.

[Rhlor]

Adding blood elves to the Horde was kind of unexpected and it shifted the image of Horde greatly. I can remember blood elves not being accepted warmly at first. They become quickly popular though. As for me, I think it hurted Horde integrity by adding highly civilized and sophisticated race to the primal and wild faction. I don't mean Horde can't have these features, but compare let's say Zandalari and High elves and tell what fits with the image of the Horde more.

Personal biases aside, blood elves are Horde race now. That's a fact. Elves are not faction specific thing anymore. Everybody should accept that. There is no point fighting that. Night elves and blood elves made their way to their perspective factions. Nightborne actually offer very little new to the Horde (it already have aristocratic magic oriented elves), on the other hand, they could open very interesting posibilties alongside kaldorei. It would be actually pretty nice reunification and culmination of kaldorei storyline. On the Horde.... not that much. San'layn on the Horde would be in similar position of two distanced groups of same nation getting together and overoming their differences.

So yes, I would still accept Alliance Nightborne and Horde San'layn.




Good observations. It makes my theory even more possible

Yes, some of us eventually find void elves cool. They have their potential. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't say I'm very satisfied with them, I'd still welcome some more customization options for them, but I generaly like them so far. As you say, lack of lore is definitely one of the biggest issues with the race.

forsaken joined the horde in vanilla who are a highly advanced society (undead humans)

goblins literally have mechs, space rockets, and beam weapons

[Kyriani]

Do you think they should have given allied races an option to do 1-10?

Would a 1-10 for void elves only be unfair given ALL the other allied races have zones of far more time required to explore them?

Or should they rather give void elves a level 70 zone next expac that effectively does the same thing. Make it detailed and expansive, almost suramar style.

Maybe something that invovled a new void elf capital whether it's a pure voi elf city, a re-purposed city or sharing with Silvermoon or even Deatholme rebuilt into a void elf city (that would be an interesting option.

I think the starting experience formula for all the allied race is fine as is, but I'd like the option for all of the to start at 1 in exile's reach if desired. The issue for void is is more in regards to their lack of existence prior to unlock, and their unlock scenario and origin, but that ship has sailed.

What I'd like to see blizz do in Telogrus is to add some npc's or clickable/readable books that offer some lore about how new recruits are gaining their powers and some of the motivations for these elves joining the ren'dorei. I'd also like to see Telogrus built up eventually and have actual buildings instead of just a few tents, but I wouldn't expect much focus on Telogrus art assets unless an expansion makes it relevant to the game as a whole. Dropping a few npc's and/or readable books is a lot easier (and less time consuming) to do.

[Beloren]

Is quiet simple: People only like to play the "Cute Princess". There is an epidemic of "I want to be a cute female waifus".

"Normal" people would play the other races based on "that" character looks awesome (like the people playing undead or troll), others just go for their horny desires.

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Yes i did.

I don't think they ever cared about male: female balance, just horde:alliance balance back then which they don't care about anymore, and getting more players into the game.

if a race could bring more females into the game, then that's more players, assuming the males still play, it's a growth as the other gender start playing more. but most males brought their girls tot he game if I recall, most guys got their girlfriends playing wow.

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I think the starting experience formula for all the allied race is fine as is, but I'd like the option for all of the to start at 1 in exile's reach if desired. The issue for void is is more in regards to their lack of existence prior to unlock, and their unlock scenario and origin, but that ship has sailed.

What I'd like to see blizz do in Telogrus is to add some npc's or clickable/readable books that offer some lore about how new recruits are gaining their powers and some of the motivations for these elves joining the ren'dorei. I'd also like to see Telogrus built up eventually and have actual buildings instead of just a few tents, but I wouldn't expect much focus on Telogrus art assets unless an expansion makes it relevant to the game as a whole. Dropping a few npc's and/or readable books is a lot easier (and less time consuming) to do.

Man, you guys aim low.. you'd be content with just NPC info? Rather than an actual zone and some serious quests/lore?

I can see why alliance doesn't get much, you guys don't push for what you want.. you're so patient and considerate to the development team. And I'm sure they appreciate it, and show that appreciation with slow development for your faction..after all, alliance fans don't mind

[Varx]

Hello, Friendly PSA: High Elves still dont exist. Only pale V O I D elves do.

Source: Character portrait mousover, Heritage Amor.