1. #23841
    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    Neutrality has more nuance anyways. You always hear the antis calling the pros racists for wanting more options. But it's way more racist to assume that an entire race would move in lockstep and never deviate from some arbitrary faction line. That is basically saying they are all exactly the same and think exactly the same, can't get much more racist than that. That is how stereotypes are formed.

    This is also a good reason to allow PVE mercenary mode. There will always be exceptions that go their own way.
    I agree on principle, but a big deal with Blood Elves is that they, ultimately, don't feel like a neutral race or faction; alongside High Elves and Void Elves, they really feel more like a people that has split in a major axis where culture and ideology continues to differ.

    Honestly I could have seen it before Void Elves being introduced, with High Elves and Blood Elves still being ostensibly the same race so there was leeway. But with the introduction of Void Elves the ends of the spectrum have just gotten so far away the game itself presents them as two different races with an aesthetic overlap.

    And I think that serves to in universe represent the idea of political differences quite well and with a lot of potential, but in terms of gameplay, I do think it makes us move past the idea of Blood Elves as a neutral race a la pandaren, like you can't undo that.

    So in that way, it just feels more likely for the remaining alliance High Elves to align politically and culturally with the Void Elves and/or end up creating half elves with humans. And much like you can't technically play as a gilnean human, just a worgen, high elves would end up in that in between, with you maybe being able to play a high elf that accepts to use void *shrug*



    I do support the idea of mercenary mode tho, but that's less of a choose your faction and more of a faction agnostic type of play in my mind; like you can go full independent, but as a mercenary, you will be seen as untrustworthy by both sides (PvP oriented) and only in for the money, or unconcerned by faction wars and only worried about major threats (PvE oriented)

    So yeah, I like the idea of Mercenary Mode, but that feels different than the notion of racial groups *choosing* a faction a la pandaren, or the thalassian divide, or the kul tiran privateers. That's specifically about faction, Mercenary Mode IMO is faction agnostic; it literally disregards it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    In Overall Terms of "Cross Faction" choice:

    I can't say I think that making races neutral a la Pandaren is the way to go, because in some ways I feel that Void Elves and Nightborne show the potential of having that cross race flavor, but under an specific context, which could be applied to other races.

    I say potential, because the issue with NB and VE at their launch, was that the overlap was way too limited, so it didn't work as a meaningful way of giving people a choice of picking sides, but the more recent advancements of Void Elves do expand the possibilities, and the same could be true for Nightborne*

    AR serving to give the other faction a good cross faction option would be better than the current low effort AR's that could be folded into their core races.

    *specifically for NB, they could inherit more Night Elf options including skin tones and hair styles and colors, but in such case I think it would be fair to give NE's the option for more NB looking ears and maybe the Idle stance, which would serve to give NB a more Highborne option overall; much in the same way, while VE's could get more natural hair colors to better match a HE fantasy, Blood Elves could also get some of those Hair styles and beards.

    Meaning that overall, there could be more overlap of assets, to give a better taste of the other side, but not everything.

    But then we have the possibility of more Neutral Races, more in line to how Pandaren work, the same racials and same options for both sides, and there are a lot of options for that like Vrykul, Yaungol, Ethereal, Eredar and Naga (Could also throw undead Night Elves in there because we still don't know what side Calia is on)
    Last edited by MyWholeLifeIsThunder; 2021-03-11 at 01:18 AM.

  2. #23842
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    R]
    The saddest thing is that LFD could just have been a customization option for Draenei and considering that we ended up with blue eyes and regular skin on Void Elves, We really could have just ended Legion with Krokul and High Elves as AR and the same balance would have been maintained of low effort AR.

    That takes us to the bit tho where most AR could have been just added customization options; if the AR system had been introduced knowing that a customization revamp was on the way, we could have gotten more interesting AR such as the mentioned Krokul, Taunka, Vrykul, Forest Troll, Mok'nathal and etc.

    When most of the existent AR's can just be merged into customization of Core Races, it kinda shows a lack of planning, and makes AR's come off as a more rushed think than anything -I mean, you just gotta look at NB to see that-
    Yea I literally said the same thing 2 posts ago and I agree.
    I also had the 3 prime examples of Hm tauren, mag'har and lf drenaei that could have been just an extension to the tauren, orc or drenei costumization options.

    I will always see it as a missed opportunity when races such as you mentioned excists, its a damn shame. Legion should have ended with: Valarjar Vrykul, Nightborne, krokul. you know the races we helped and had some story in Legion.

    AR were a rush job and it showed, nightborne fer sure is the prime example, but I think void elves are also a perfect example, because they were a literal asspull.

    We might have a different opinion on high elves, but my opinion will always be that they were already playable for 14 years and there was absolutely no need for void elves. But its better to let it rest since both factions have the option now and it was the only option because the crying of alliance was to much..
    Last edited by Alanar; 2021-03-11 at 12:00 PM.

  3. #23843
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Yea I literally said the same thing 2 posts ago and I agree.
    I also had the 3 prime examples of Hm tauren, mag'har and lf drenaei that could have been just an extension to the tauren, orc or drenei costumization options.

    I will always see it as a missed opportunity when races such as you mentioned excists, its a damn shame. Legion should have ended with: Valarjar Vrykul, Nightborne, krokul. you know the races we helped and had some story in Legion.

    AR were a rush job and it showed, nightborne fer sure is the prime example, but I think void elves are also a perfect example, because they were a literal asspull.
    For real, AR's could have been introduced in a far more meaningful state if they took the time; considering that the expanded customization would have been on the pipeline by then, overall it feels like poor planing.

    Zandalari, Vulpera and Kul Tirans feel like what AR's should be, too distinct to be combined with their Core Race; and I would also throw in NB and VE, but mostly because of their potential of adding some cross faction flavor, but it was clear with them that they were a rush job.

    We might have a different opinion on high elves, but my opinion will always be that they were already playable for 14 years and there was absolutely no need for void elves. But its better to let it rest since both factions have the option now and it was the only option because the crying of alliance was to much..
    The core of the High Elf issue will always rest in the fact that they continued to exist on the Alliance as a defined persistent presence. If they had been "exterminated" as they allegedly were after the Third War, it really wouldn't be an issue.

    But continuing to show them as an alliance presence through WoW's just further shined a light on the idea that not all races would have monolithic politics, and to be honest you can't blame High Elf fans for pointing out to that and asking the obvious question of "Why aren't they playable?"

    I am not asking you to like High Elves as a playable concept, but it really feels that over 16 years later people struggle to understand *why* High Elves became such a hotly debated issue, and reduce the discussion to simply alliance whining, when it all comes from Blizzard's own refusal of keeping alliance high elves in the past, and continue to visibly use them as part of the present of the alliance. And the facts are that no other group existed on the same context; we have Ogres as the closest, but they never had the sort of continued presence on the Horde as High Elves did on the alliance, and neither were their a splinter of a cross faction group.

  4. #23844
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    For real, AR's could have been introduced in a far more meaningful state if they took the time; considering that the expanded customization would have been on the pipeline by then, overall it feels like poor planing.

    Zandalari, Vulpera and Kul Tirans feel like what AR's should be, too distinct to be combined with their Core Race; and I would also throw in NB and VE, but mostly because of their potential of adding some cross faction flavor, but it was clear with them that they were a rush job.



    The core of the High Elf issue will always rest in the fact that they continued to exist on the Alliance as a defined persistent presence. If they had been "exterminated" as they allegedly were after the Third War, it really wouldn't be an issue.

    But continuing to show them as an alliance presence through WoW's just further shined a light on the idea that not all races would have monolithic politics, and to be honest you can't blame High Elf fans for pointing out to that and asking the obvious question of "Why aren't they playable?"
    This is why I don't understand Blizzard's thinking. If you're going to put HE on the Horde(renamed BE), why suddenly say 'yeah, there are HE on Alliance' and dangle them enticingly at many opportunities? Of course people are going to ask: 'why can't we play as them?' Blizzard should have made it clear that all HE joined the Horde, but here we are. I wonder how the story would have been different.

  5. #23845
    Quote Originally Posted by Mungho View Post
    This is why I don't understand Blizzard's thinking. If you're going to put HE on the Horde(renamed BE), why suddenly say 'yeah, there are HE on Alliance' and dangle them enticingly at many opportunities? Of course people are going to ask: 'why can't we play as them?' Blizzard should have made it clear that all HE joined the Horde, but here we are. I wonder how the story would have been different.
    You see it as dangling in your face. I see it as the playable high elves are horde but for lore flavor there is an npc faction of the same race on the alliance side that is not meant to be playable. Simple as that it happens.

    Just like how horde has my human pirates, alliance fought with grim totem, or the goblin rogue in SI 7. It happens, doesn't entitle players to that playable race to the opposite faction.

  6. #23846
    Quote Originally Posted by Mungho View Post
    This is why I don't understand Blizzard's thinking. If you're going to put HE on the Horde(renamed BE), why suddenly say 'yeah, there are HE on Alliance' and dangle them enticingly at many opportunities? Of course people are going to ask: 'why can't we play as them?' Blizzard should have made it clear that all HE joined the Horde, but here we are. I wonder how the story would have been different.
    Exactly, specially when War3 did make it sound like that. All that vanilla had to do was to not add major High Elf settlements (Quel'danil and Quel'lithien) or making them under BE control, and then just start BC saying that most elves returned to Quel'thalas to help rebuild and so on.

    Instead, they made clear every expansion that there was a significant number of High Elves left, a lot of them on the alliance; which brings us to the Silver Covenant, which was introduced on WotLK, giving HE's their own organization, and then continuing to use that group as part of alliance stories, and BE enemies.

  7. #23847
    I just want to play an Alliance High Elf Paladin and I'm dumbfounded why Blizzard is so bullheaded about not caving in. It would likely only help the game and maybe even go a long way in fixing the AvH imbalance if Alliance got true High Elves.

    At this point just make them into a full-fledged race in a future expansion. I'm done trying to eke out scraps for the Velves.

  8. #23848
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    You see it as dangling in your face. I see it as the playable high elves are horde but for lore flavor there is an npc faction of the same race on the alliance side that is not meant to be playable. Simple as that it happens.

    Just like how horde has my human pirates, alliance fought with grim totem, or the goblin rogue in SI 7. It happens, doesn't entitle players to that playable race to the opposite faction.
    You really are conflating "entitlement" with just pointing out how noticeable the presence of High Elves is on the alliance. People are just correctly pointing out how out of the norm High Elves are as a "flavor npc faction" and how their continued presence does lead to the question as to why aren't they a playable race. But you call noticing that "entitlement", because you see picking up something obvious and wishing it addressed or expanded as nothing more than whining.

    That's just weird man.

  9. #23849
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I agree on principle, but a big deal with Blood Elves is that they, ultimately, don't feel like a neutral race or faction; alongside High Elves and Void Elves, they really feel more like a people that has split in a major axis where culture and ideology continues to differ.

    Honestly I could have seen it before Void Elves being introduced, with High Elves and Blood Elves still being ostensibly the same race so there was leeway. But with the introduction of Void Elves the ends of the spectrum have just gotten so far away the game itself presents them as two different races with an aesthetic overlap.

    And I think that serves to in universe represent the idea of political differences quite well and with a lot of potential, but in terms of gameplay, I do think it makes us move past the idea of Blood Elves as a neutral race a la pandaren, like you can't undo that.

    So in that way, it just feels more likely for the remaining alliance High Elves to align politically and culturally with the Void Elves and/or end up creating half elves with humans. And much like you can't technically play as a gilnean human, just a worgen, high elves would end up in that in between, with you maybe being able to play a high elf that accepts to use void *shrug*



    I do support the idea of mercenary mode tho, but that's less of a choose your faction and more of a faction agnostic type of play in my mind; like you can go full independent, but as a mercenary, you will be seen as untrustworthy by both sides (PvP oriented) and only in for the money, or unconcerned by faction wars and only worried about major threats (PvE oriented)

    So yeah, I like the idea of Mercenary Mode, but that feels different than the notion of racial groups *choosing* a faction a la pandaren, or the thalassian divide, or the kul tiran privateers. That's specifically about faction, Mercenary Mode IMO is faction agnostic; it literally disregards it.
    Yea, I think the Void Elf angle basically accomplishes neutrality for them without having to go the Pandaren route. All they need now is a few more hair colors, ones without some shade of blue or purple. They could add more Blood Elf ones, but I like the idea of giving them new ones that are separate. The desaturated colors we've seen posted here many times would do nicely. I also think pink and starcursed colors would be really cool though.

    Mercenary mode would be best if it was like how ESO does their all races on all factions store purchase. You could either have them do a mercenary faction quest line right at level 1, or maybe wait till level 10 or so like Pandaren then choose to defect. The first option would be easier, the second more lore appropriate.

  10. #23850
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    You really are conflating "entitlement" with just pointing out how noticeable the presence of High Elves is on the alliance. People are just correctly pointing out how out of the norm High Elves are as a "flavor npc faction" and how their continued presence does lead to the question as to why aren't they a playable race. But you call noticing that "entitlement", because you see picking up something obvious and wishing it addressed or expanded as nothing more than whining.

    That's just weird man.
    Who cares how much of a presence they had during wrath onwards. Blood elves were introduce in TBC as a Horde race while there still being a very small group of alliance elves clinging to old alliances from w2 for lore reasons, not to mock alliance players.

    For w/e reason they decided to empower the silver covenant as a major force. Perhaps to herald the return of alleria? Who knows.

    But that still doesn't change the fact that belves were the new major HORDE race.

    "So just give them new model" why? There is no lore justification why helves would physically look different from belves. Even KT humans have lore reasons why they look different, though weak ass reasons I'll admit, but reasons non the less.

    Imagine if the horde KT humans pirates got a bigger role in 10.0. you think the horde should then get them playable too?

    This is why the alliance got velves out of thin air despite having the silver covenant up and ready for allied racification.

  11. #23851
    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    Yea, I think the Void Elf angle basically accomplishes neutrality for them without having to go the Pandaren route. All they need now is a few more hair colors, ones without some shade of blue or purple. They could add more Blood Elf ones, but I like the idea of giving them new ones that are separate. The desaturated colors we've seen posted here many times would do nicely. I also think pink and starcursed colors would be really cool though.
    Basically; an actually good possibility having VE and BE separated as two different races, is that they can delve into an aesthetic differentiation even while there is biological overlap. Markings, decorations, hair styles and even hair colors, all can be different because of a cultural context. Indeed, I quite like the idea of Void Elves having less saturated hair colors overall -such as, more ressembling to the Kul Tirans ones as I have posted before- to signify that their separation to the Sunwell does affect them even if it is in that small measure. And that's not even considering the possibility of more void colors like the "starcursed" options

    Mercenary mode would be best if it was like how ESO does their all races on all factions store purchase. You could either have them do a mercenary faction quest line right at level 1, or maybe wait till level 10 or so like Pandaren then choose to defect. The first option would be easier, the second more lore appropriate.
    I think either a Mercenary Mode where you can basically play in a faction agnostic way or even an outright Defection Mode could work. Mercenary -as in a true neutral/independent- where you are locked out of doing faction specific PvE content would work for all races -and basically you'd be a true mercenary on PvP- A Defector mode, as in, completely switching factions, I would also like, but I feel should have some limitations -maybe per account or realm, or even race-

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Who cares how much of a presence they had during wrath onwards.
    Probably all the people that have been asking about High Elves. It's relevant to the world and the lore. It shouldn't be shocking that other people care about things different than you.

    But that still doesn't change the fact that belves were the new major HORDE race.
    It doesn't, and if you were paying attention, you would know that. But seems you are unable to understand the concept that some people would like to see the ideological distinction between HE and BE to be explored in a playable way. And you might disagree with how interesting that is, but that fact that you don't seem to get it as per the "Well BE's are a HORDE race" just points out that you don't seem to grasp the issue, no matter for how long and how many different ways you are told.

    I am not asking you to agree, but it's facepalm worthy that you still don't get the issues.

    "So just give them new model" why? There is no lore justification why helves would physically look different from belves. Even KT humans have lore reasons why they look different, though weak ass reasons I'll admit, but reasons non the less.
    Most pro HE people would have been fine with the same model, as most people are happy with the VE options to a degree; because they allow to play a fantasy that's already present in the lore. Changing the HE to have a unique model -a different stance, such as Nightborne, since that's a behavioral, not biological change- was mostly so BE people would stop complaining we just wanted their model. It was not a necessity by any means, but a way to meet detractors halfway, who still refused.

    Imagine if the horde KT humans pirates got a bigger role in 10.0. you think the horde should then get them playable too?
    Yes.

    This is why the alliance got velves out of thin air despite having the silver covenant up and ready for allied racification.
    And it was clearly a controversial decision that many people, including me, think was the wrong one. Creating a group out of thin air to avoid fulfilling a long standing request was beyond any intentional, detracting to their own lore and world building; over 3 years since their introduction, Void Elves remain the least developed AR to an hilarious degree.

  12. #23852
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Basically; an actually good possibility having VE and BE separated as two different races, is that they can delve into an aesthetic differentiation even while there is biological overlap. Markings, decorations, hair styles and even hair colors, all can be different because of a cultural context. Indeed, I quite like the idea of Void Elves having less saturated hair colors overall -such as, more ressembling to the Kul Tirans ones as I have posted before- to signify that their separation to the Sunwell does affect them even if it is in that small measure. And that's not even considering the possibility of more void colors like the "starcursed" options



    I think either a Mercenary Mode where you can basically play in a faction agnostic way or even an outright Defection Mode could work. Mercenary -as in a true neutral/independent- where you are locked out of doing faction specific PvE content would work for all races -and basically you'd be a true mercenary on PvP- A Defector mode, as in, completely switching factions, I would also like, but I feel should have some limitations -maybe per account or realm, or even race-

    - - - Updated - - -



    Probably all the people that have been asking about High Elves. It's relevant to the world and the lore. It shouldn't be shocking that other people care about things different than you.



    It doesn't, and if you were paying attention, you would know that. But seems you are unable to understand the concept that some people would like to see the ideological distinction between HE and BE to be explored in a playable way. And you might disagree with how interesting that is, but that fact that you don't seem to get it as per the "Well BE's are a HORDE race" just points out that you don't seem to grasp the issue, no matter for how long and how many different ways you are told.

    I am not asking you to agree, but it's facepalm worthy that you still don't get the issues.



    Most pro HE people would have been fine with the same model, as most people are happy with the VE options to a degree; because they allow to play a fantasy that's already present in the lore. Changing the HE to have a unique model -a different stance, such as Nightborne, since that's a behavioral, not biological change- was mostly so BE people would stop complaining we just wanted their model. It was not a necessity by any means, but a way to meet detractors halfway, who still refused.



    Yes.



    And it was clearly a controversial decision that many people, including me, think was the wrong one. Creating a group out of thin air to avoid fulfilling a long standing request was beyond any intentional, detracting to their own lore and world building; over 3 years since their introduction, Void Elves remain the least developed AR to an hilarious degree.
    I get it your stance. I'm just saying it's unrealistic in practice. If it wasn't we'd have many more playable options as players and void elves never would have existed. Clearly blizzard agrees.

  13. #23853
    Just because this thread exists I think Blizzard should go out of their way not to make any more changes to the Void Elves or Blood Elves. It sets a horrible precedent that whinging for years on a fan forum can somehow influence game decision outcomes. If we empower players in this way then its GG no RE, they will not be able to repack the pandoras box of shit they will have unleashed.

  14. #23854
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Just because this thread exists I think Blizzard should go out of their way not to make any more changes to the Void Elves or Blood Elves. It sets a horrible precedent that whinging for years on a fan forum can somehow influence game decision outcomes. If we empower players in this way then its GG no RE, they will not be able to repack the pandoras box of shit they will have unleashed.
    You're basically saying that Blizzard should never make changes based on customer feedback...

  15. #23855
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    You're basically saying that Blizzard should never make changes based on customer feedback...
    No, just the excessively low quality ones like "make whiter elves"

  16. #23856
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    No, just the excessively low quality ones like "make whiter elves"
    That's subjective... and rather insulting considering the breadth of skin tones made available, and the fact that those asking for alliance high eves were asking for a large range of skin tones, including darker ones, not just "white".

    My own Warlock took advantage of that and she looks absolutely stunning IMO.



    But basically you've just said "Blizzard should never make changes based on customer feedback if I don't like those changes". You may not think that's what you said, but it is.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2021-03-12 at 06:23 AM.

  17. #23857
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    No, just the excessively low quality ones like "make whiter elves"
    I've never seen any pro HE people asking for "whiter elves." I have seen a lot of anti HE people begging for blue eyes (which they got) and complaining about BE getting dark skin tones though. While this very thread was the one asking for dark skin High Elves so they could RP the water tribe from Avatar.

    Seems like a whole lot of projecting going on tbh.

  18. #23858
    The bare minimum effort to fix Void Elves and get me to shut up would be:

    - Give them the hairstyles and colours from Blood Elves, or at lest the colours along with some unique new hair styles that look more normal.

    What would make me really excited to play them:

    - Short ears carried over from Blood Elves.
    - War paints or tattoos.

    God tier changes:

    - Tweak their racials so they're less caster-focused.
    - Make them more "Cyberpunk" with shaved sides and stuff.

  19. #23859
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowlands-is-fake View Post
    The bare minimum effort to fix Void Elves and get me to shut up would be:

    - Give them the hairstyles and colours from Blood Elves, or at lest the colours along with some unique new hair styles that look more normal.

    What would make me really excited to play them:

    - Short ears carried over from Blood Elves.
    - War paints or tattoos.

    God tier changes:

    - Tweak their racials so they're less caster-focused.
    - Make them more "Cyberpunk" with shaved sides and stuff.

    The only new options for velves should be more voidy options to emphasize that they're VOID elves and I guess Alleria like Tattoos. Stop asking for belf options, belves are belves velves are velves, stop bluring the lines more, they're not Pandarens.



    For example...
    Last edited by Varx; 2021-03-12 at 06:17 PM.

  20. #23860
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    I get it your stance. I'm just saying it's unrealistic in practice. If it wasn't we'd have many more playable options as players and void elves never would have existed. Clearly blizzard agrees.
    Unrealistic? Hardly when we are like a hair color away from a suitable playable High Elf fantasy. The limits of the game are always evolving, I would not really call the possibility of a more comprehensive HE fantasy through VE "unrealistic."

    High Elves as their own Allied Race, Silvermoon returning to the Alliance, Void Elf Paladins; those feel more unrealistic than more natural colors on VEs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Just because this thread exists I think Blizzard should go out of their way not to make any more changes to the Void Elves or Blood Elves. It sets a horrible precedent that whinging for years on a fan forum can somehow influence game decision outcomes. If we empower players in this way then its GG no RE, they will not be able to repack the pandoras box of shit they will have unleashed.
    It's stunning how you can both be so dismissive of player feedback at the same time you do some pearl chuckling.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    That's subjective... and rather insulting considering the breadth of skin tones made available, and the fact that those asking for alliance high eves were asking for a large range of skin tones, including darker ones, not just "white".

    My own Warlock took advantage of that and she looks absolutely stunning IMO.



    But basically you've just said "Blizzard should never make changes based on customer feedback if I don't like those changes". You may not think that's what you said, but it is.
    The whole logical loop these people good into "customer feedback is actually bad and should not be heard" is actually hilarious.

    Also the "wah, you just want High Elves to be white" is just so inaccurate -funny mayhaps if it wasn't rooted in racism- when many of us that have been vocal about HE's have also been vocal about dark skinned elves since waaaay before they were a customization option.

    But that would go against the narrative that High Elf Fans are just racist whiners that want blonde elves

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