1. #24281
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    I'm not saying high elves are/were pure. They made their choices which ultimately alienated them from sin'dorei and both groups do not trust each other.
    Some sure, but most certainly not all. Especially those not alligned with the Alliance, might decide to go back home at any time and Lor'themar has yet to outright refuse your average high elf, since he wants unification.

  2. #24282
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    I'm not saying high elves are/were pure. They made their choices which ultimately alienated them from sin'dorei and both groups do not trust each other.



    Pretty bad example actually. Republicans and democrats are both legitimate citizens of their country. Blood elves and high elves are not in the same position. At some point, blood elves had to transform their society in order to survive and high elves did not want to do so, so they were exiled. If you look at better example, look at the Republic of China. Once a communist party took control over the country, they made changes which suited their agenda. There were people who disagreed, so they were imprisoned, executed. For these reasons, people in opposition to the official regime fled the country and formed communities which held values before communists came. That does make sense to you?

    Also, another example, Makedonia and Greece. Both are countries of same history, but they both identify differently. Another example, Czech republic and Slovakia. Countries which coexisted together for years, their languages are nearly identical, yet they defined each other diferently. And the list goes on and on.
    the current quel'thalas is the same as the quelthalas before the invasion. no cultural change

  3. #24283
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    do you understand what culture is? The culture of a nation is a set of cultural elements that the members of that nation share such as language, art, architecture, religion, etc.

    did the thalassian in the alliance stop speaking thalassian? or did they stop worshiping belore?

    what you misunderstand by culture is actually idiology.

    and to clarify matters only the magisters used fel to rebuild cities and the people in general in quelthalas never used fel. The light extracted from Muru was only done by the Blood Knights, it was not something that everyone did. and after the sunwell recovered everything returned to normal, the magisters exchanged fel crystals for mana crystals and blood knights now worship the light.
    If you are going to make the argument that ideology has nothing to do, or affects culture, then there's not much to discuss. You are not even consistent at separating just the aesthetics because you include religion, but not ideology?

    More so even if the change is "only ideological", that doesn't change the fact that blue eyed blood elves would exist still, because all they have to do is to identify with that ideology, even if by your "definition" is not culture *facepalm*

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They took the name to honor the slaughtered of the scourge invasion, the high elves don't honor the dead as much, that is pretty much the only cultural divergence at this point.

    Otherwise, all heavily value their homeland, have the same art, architecture, history, language and see the sunwell as a holy site.
    It's like you are unable to understand that cultures change and evolve.

    Blood Elves markedly changed a lot of their values to survive; to see them just as the High Elves they used to be before the third war, denies them of their strife and growth.

    I STG that I don't understand where this nonsense traditionalism for high elves comes from; the whole point is that BE's had to adapt to survive (and even when Modern HE's kept the name, they also thoroughly changed)

  4. #24284
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    If you are going to make the argument that ideology has nothing to do, or affects culture, then there's not much to discuss. You are not even consistent at separating just the aesthetics because you include religion, but not ideology?

    More so even if the change is "only ideological", that doesn't change the fact that blue eyed blood elves would exist still, because all they have to do is to identify with that ideology, even if by your "definition" is not culture *facepalm*



    It's like you are unable to understand that cultures change and evolve.

    Blood Elves markedly changed a lot of their values to survive; to see them just as the High Elves they used to be before the third war, denies them of their strife and growth.

    I STG that I don't understand where this nonsense traditionalism for high elves comes from; the whole point is that BE's had to adapt to survive (and even when Modern HE's kept the name, they also thoroughly changed)
    there was a terrible crisis years ago but now things are back to normal with the sunwell restored. there is no cultural difference between the pre-invasion quelthalas and the current quelthalas. there is a political difference which is that quelthalas joined the horde.
    their fight is not denied, the patriots of quelthalas won they saved their kingdom! and as they are patriots that if necessary they will kill their own prince because he is loyal to the legion and to his followers they do it for the sake of quelthalas.
    you don't understand blood elves they love quelthalas so much that restoring quelthalas to what it was before the invasion is the greatest achievement and honor for the blood elves that they can go back to living as they did before the invasion is proof of their triumph
    Last edited by Rhlor; 2021-06-18 at 12:22 AM.

  5. #24285
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    I've come to terms that there's nothing wrong with Blood Elves naming themselves as High Elves, as long as it's not Silver Covenant nor Highvale
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  6. #24286
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    there was a terrible crisis years ago but now things are back to normal
    Lol okay.

    there is no cultural difference between the pre-invasion quelthalas and the current quelthalas.
    Sure Jan, because a nationwide trauma that almost wiped them out doesn't affect the values of a culture at all. JFC how do you even miss how the elves went from traditionalist and methodical, set on their ways, isolationists; to progressively seeking new forms of magic, redefining themselves through their means of survival, even their new worship of the light is completely new to what existed before the fall, leaving behind their isolationism.

    you don't understand blood elves they love quelthalas so much that restoring quelthalas to what it was before the invasion is the greatest achievement and honor for the blood elves that they can go back to living as they did before the invasion is proof of their triumph
    I really, honestly loathe this traditionalist view of Blood Elves when THEIR WHOLE THING is about adapting to survive. As if doing that didn't change them forever, as if they didn't grow as a people in ways they hadn't for centuries.

    It's for real a shame that someone takes the Blood Elves, the exemplar of what means to move forward and reinvent yourself, and claim to love them while holding regressive traditionalist views that go in complete opposite of what the Blood Elves have become.

    You don't like Blood Elves, you just like pre third war High Elves and what them to go back to that.

    You might as well become the High Elf version of Ravenmoon or Mace FFS

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I've come to terms that there's nothing wrong with Blood Elves naming themselves as High Elves, as long as it's not Silver Covenant nor Highvale
    Sure, I do agree with that. But we have yet to see a single Blood Elf referring to themselves as a High Elf in canon. The reason why the changed their name holds meaning, and I hate how people try to erase it in order to pretend they haven't changed at all.

  7. #24287
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Lol okay.



    Sure Jan, because a nationwide trauma that almost wiped them out doesn't affect the values of a culture at all. JFC how do you even miss how the elves went from traditionalist and methodical, set on their ways, isolationists; to progressively seeking new forms of magic, redefining themselves through their means of survival, even their new worship of the light is completely new to what existed before the fall, leaving behind their isolationism.



    I really, honestly loathe this traditionalist view of Blood Elves when THEIR WHOLE THING is about adapting to survive. As if doing that didn't change them forever, as if they didn't grow as a people in ways they hadn't for centuries.

    It's for real a shame that someone takes the Blood Elves, the exemplar of what means to move forward and reinvent yourself, and claim to love them while holding regressive traditionalist views that go in complete opposite of what the Blood Elves have become.

    You don't like Blood Elves, you just like pre third war High Elves and what them to go back to that.

    You might as well become the High Elf version of Ravenmoon or Mace FFS

    - - - Updated - - -



    Sure, I do agree with that. But we have yet to see a single Blood Elf referring to themselves as a High Elf in canon. The reason why the changed their name holds meaning, and I hate how people try to erase it in order to pretend they haven't changed at all.
    You are totally wrong I love the blood elves and I love their characters I love liadrin, lorthemar (the best racial leader of the horde), I love rommath (he is great) and halduron.

    ever read blood of the highborne? faith in the light has always existed in quelthalas high priest Vandellor (liadrin's father) was one of the most important people in quelthalas. Liadrin now as a worshiper of light simply went back to who she was.

    it is true that the government of quel'thalas takes the necessary measures to protect quelthalas. like being part of the horde and looking for new powers that can be useful as the reliquary does.
    but that does not change that life in quelthalas is returning to normal that people are recovering their lives as they were before the invasion that things are going back to the way they were.
    and it is obvious that quelthalas will keep their traditions alive and their lifestyle is why they fought so hard to save their kingdom and all that it is.

  8. #24288
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Lol okay.



    Sure Jan, because a nationwide trauma that almost wiped them out doesn't affect the values of a culture at all. JFC how do you even miss how the elves went from traditionalist and methodical, set on their ways, isolationists; to progressively seeking new forms of magic, redefining themselves through their means of survival, even their new worship of the light is completely new to what existed before the fall, leaving behind their isolationism.



    I really, honestly loathe this traditionalist view of Blood Elves when THEIR WHOLE THING is about adapting to survive. As if doing that didn't change them forever, as if they didn't grow as a people in ways they hadn't for centuries.

    It's for real a shame that someone takes the Blood Elves, the exemplar of what means to move forward and reinvent yourself, and claim to love them while holding regressive traditionalist views that go in complete opposite of what the Blood Elves have become.

    You don't like Blood Elves, you just like pre third war High Elves and what them to go back to that.

    You might as well become the High Elf version of Ravenmoon or Mace FFS
    to be fair I actually see nothing wrong with Rhlor's narrative, it's not like he wants to take away a huge/major Alliance team and bring it to the Horde
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  9. #24289
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    to be fair I actually see nothing wrong with Rhlor's narrative, it's not like he wants to take away a huge/major Alliance team and bring it to the Horde
    I actually think they should do that. Alteraci humans would be really cool!

  10. #24290
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    You are totally wrong I love the blood elves and I love their characters I love liadrin, lorthemar (the best racial leader of the horde), I love rommath (he is great) and halduron.

    ever read blood of the highborne? faith in the light has always existed in quelthalas high priest Vandellor (liadrin's father) was one of the most important people in quelthalas. Liadrin now as a worshiper of light simply went back to who she was.

    it is true that the government of quel'thalas takes the necessary measures to protect quelthalas. like being part of the horde and looking for new powers that can be useful as the reliquary does.
    but that does not change that life in quelthalas is returning to normal that people are recovering their lives as they were before the invasion that things are going back to the way they were.
    and it is obvious that quelthalas will keep their traditions alive and their lifestyle is why they fought so hard to save their kingdom and all that it is.
    Fate in the Light existed, but was not as important as today. You misinterpret Vandellor's importance. He was foster father of Liadrin, so he was important for her, but claiming he was one of the most important people in Quel'thalas is a stretch. He is not even confirmed to be part of Convocation of Silvermoon.

    Blood elves today wants to go to the direction they were pre-Third War, but there are things that changed forever. It will never be the same. Don't forget that use of Fel is still evident in Silvermoon, as was mentioned by Mathias Shaw in the Eastern Kingdoms book. Also blood knights and paladins are now important part of the society, which were almost non existent pre-Third War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I've come to terms that there's nothing wrong with Blood Elves naming themselves as High Elves, as long as it's not Silver Covenant nor Highvale
    He certainly has a thing for Auric Sunchaser and other Allerian elves, who were the ones who denied their king in the past, left their homeland with Alleria to help the Alliance fight of the Horde.

    In order for blood elves to get back to pre-Third War state, they would need to:

    - Crown a king of noble bloodline.
    - Leave Horde, isolate themselves and care only about their own affairs
    - Abandon blood knight/paladin and warlock training, since such practises were not common among Quel'dorei and only handful individuals delved into.
    - Kill all orcs and trolls on sight for attacking Quel'thalas in the past
    Last edited by Vaedan; 2021-06-18 at 05:15 AM.

  11. #24291
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    He certainly has a thing for Auric Sunchaser and other Allerian elves, who were the ones who denied their king in the past, left their homeland with Alleria to help the Alliance fight of the Horde.
    to be fair that's the closest thing we can get for non-SC High Elves for the Horde; and I believe at least some of the Allerians can return to Silvermoon after Kael'thas' treachery was exposed and he was defeated
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  12. #24292
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    It's like you are unable to understand that cultures change and evolve.

    Blood Elves markedly changed a lot of their values to survive; to see them just as the High Elves they used to be before the third war, denies them of their strife and growth.

    I STG that I don't understand where this nonsense traditionalism for high elves comes from; the whole point is that BE's had to adapt to survive (and even when Modern HE's kept the name, they also thoroughly changed)
    Sorry but your point lacks any kind of depth, choosing to ensure the survival of ones people is not really a cultural trait

    Tell me what is a genuine cultural difference between a high elf and a blood elf, something that truly sets them apart, just because high elves chose to be the equivalent of anti vaxxers does not mean there is a great cultural divide.

    Being more pragmatic, is most certainly not a big cultural difference, especially if we consider the high elves did it out of moral reasons and later embracing similar methods and embracing the void thus rendering the whole thing utterly moot.

  13. #24293
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    to be fair that's the closest thing we can get for non-SC High Elves for the Horde; and I believe at least some of the Allerians can return to Silvermoon after Kael'thas' treachery was exposed and he was defeated
    Probably, but most them expressed distaste of what blood elves become (TBC Timeline). These elves were strongly anti-Horde, they left their homeland after orcs, ogres and trolls burned Eversong. I tend to believe it's more likely for them to rejoin Alleria. They are her former squad, after all.

  14. #24294
    Bloodsail Admiral elbleuet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    re-read the short story they were upset that the lorthemar made quelthalas join the horde. they are very angry because nathanos (that moment member of the horde) was attacking them.
    But whatever happened to them, they used a corrupted source of magic and became wretched. the few survivors are now not hostile to the horde
    Gameplay reasons.

    The entire zone was made neutral back in Cataclysm and Quel'Lithien was an Alliance zone, so Blizzard had to find an excuse to make them neutral/hostile to everyone.

    That's why he's neutral to you even if your faction sacked his homeland and killed any High elf it could back in Vanilla.

    On the other side, Quel'Danil, is still an Alliance territory, and your "Blue-eyed high elf of da Horde" is killed at sight by... high elves living there.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  15. #24295
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Fate in the Light existed, but was not as important as today. You misinterpret Vandellor's importance. He was foster father of Liadrin, so he was important for her, but claiming he was one of the most important people in Quel'thalas is a stretch. He is not even confirmed to be part of Convocation of Silvermoon.

    Blood elves today wants to go to the direction they were pre-Third War, but there are things that changed forever. It will never be the same. Don't forget that use of Fel is still evident in Silvermoon, as was mentioned by Mathias Shaw in the Eastern Kingdoms book. Also blood knights and paladins are now important part of the society, which were almost non existent pre-Third War.



    He certainly has a thing for Auric Sunchaser and other Allerian elves, who were the ones who denied their king in the past, left their homeland with Alleria to help the Alliance fight of the Horde.

    In order for blood elves to get back to pre-Third War state, they would need to:

    - Crown a king of noble bloodline.
    - Leave Horde, isolate themselves and care only about their own affairs
    - Abandon blood knight/paladin and warlock training, since such practises were not common among Quel'dorei and only handful individuals delved into.
    - Kill all orcs and trolls on sight for attacking Quel'thalas in the past
    Mehlar was a paladin befor the invasion.
    Blood elves kill the trolls that they kill all time the amani
    Last edited by Rhlor; 2021-06-18 at 08:53 AM.

  16. #24296
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    to be fair I actually see nothing wrong with Rhlor's narrative, it's not like he wants to take away a huge/major Alliance team and bring it to the Horde
    What's the alliance have to do with any of this tho? My issues are about the dismissal of what the Blood Elves have gone through and how they were changed, I really can't respect that sort of opinion; I would actually be more understanding if he actually wanted all the high elves to return to Quel'thalas. I just loathe that people that claim to love Blood Elves would strip them bare of their identity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    You are totally wrong I love the blood elves and I love their characters I love liadrin, lorthemar (the best racial leader of the horde), I love rommath (he is great) and halduron.

    ever read blood of the highborne? faith in the light has always existed in quelthalas high priest Vandellor (liadrin's father) was one of the most important people in quelthalas. Liadrin now as a worshiper of light simply went back to who she was.

    it is true that the government of quel'thalas takes the necessary measures to protect quelthalas. like being part of the horde and looking for new powers that can be useful as the reliquary does.
    but that does not change that life in quelthalas is returning to normal that people are recovering their lives as they were before the invasion that things are going back to the way they were.
    and it is obvious that quelthalas will keep their traditions alive and their lifestyle is why they fought so hard to save their kingdom and all that it is.
    Honestly the kindest, and at the same time most pretentious, thing I can say is that you don't get Blood Elves. It actually bothers me when people that claim to like them completely invalidate their racial identity.

    -Holy Light Worship wasn't a cornerstone of High Elves culture as it is of Blood Elves culture; for one, the freaking Sunwell didn't use to be made half of light. Blood Elves now have a major militant branch of holy, zealous warriors that didn't exist before the Third War. Like come on dude, the cultural shifts literally are part of the gameplay and the lore and you simply dismiss them because "Blood Elves are just like how High Elves used to be" FFS

    -You keep assuming that "things are going back to normal" as if rebuilding MEANS going back to the way thinsg were instead of finding a new normal. Seeing how literally so many aspects of Thalassian culture have changed, it's nonsense to pretend the new normal is the same than the old one.

    -You seem to have no idea what it means for a people to evolve culturally.

  17. #24297
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    to be fair that's the closest thing we can get for non-SC High Elves for the Horde; and I believe at least some of the Allerians can return to Silvermoon after Kael'thas' treachery was exposed and he was defeated
    Theloria dreamt the back quelthalas.
    Roseleth want to help the blood elves and she return azeroth
    Auric says that all are childrens of silvermoon.

  18. #24298
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Sorry but your point lacks any kind of depth, choosing to ensure the survival of ones people is not really a cultural trait
    As if it weren't utterly shortsighted to claim that a whole civilization changing their morals in order to survive -adapt- wouldn't have any sort of long lasting and even permanent effects in their culture.

    We literally see how Fel continues to be openly practiced, we see how the light rose in prominence, we see how they abandoned their isolation tendencies, and somehow those aren't major cultural shifts?

    Tell me what is a genuine cultural difference between a high elf and a blood elf, something that truly sets them apart, just because high elves chose to be the equivalent of anti vaxxers does not mean there is a great cultural divide.
    High elves aren't shown to be nearly as zealous in the ways of the light as the blood knights are; the only HE group described as light worshiping, and anti magic, are the Highvale, in a very woodsy way.

    High Elves don't practice fel magic as openly as blood elves.

    Highvale elves literally shun magic.

    High Elves have begun to assimilate into humanity. Elisande literally calls them out as peasants that dilute their bloodline.

    Yet all of this misses the point; it's not about how different they are, but about how their differences have set them apart in a course that will keep moving them farther and farther away as a people. For all the cultural shifts BE's have went, the modern High Elves have moved even further away with their assimilation into humanity.

    The WHOLE POINT is that neither of them is a true reflection of Pre Third War High Elves, they have both moved into different paths, they both have had major cultural shifts. But Noooo, there's no great cultural divide.

    Being more pragmatic, is most certainly not a big cultural difference, especially if we consider the high elves did it out of moral reasons and later embracing similar methods and embracing the void thus rendering the whole thing utterly moot.
    Ah, the void, which is completely anathema to Blood Elf culture that has double down on light worship because the Sunwell is now made of light. How the hell can't you see as yet another obvious bifurcation between the both of them is beyond me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Theloria dreamt the back quelthalas.
    Roseleth want to help the blood elves and she return azeroth
    Auric says that all are childrens of silvermoon.
    Theloria shows disgust for the choices the BE's made, Ros'eleth wants to help fix theiur addiction. How do any of those read to you "Yes, I will gladly rejoin the Blood Elves"

    Auric is literally a neutral representative for all elfdom, his whole point is that he wants equal access for all elves, regardless of faction allegiance.

    And you claim he would join the Horde *facepalm*

  19. #24299
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    As if it weren't utterly shortsighted to claim that a whole civilization changing their morals in order to survive -adapt- wouldn't have any sort of long lasting and even permanent effects in their culture.
    So far there is nothing to indicate it, they are pretty much the same as they were before.

    We literally see how Fel continues to be openly practiced, we see how the light rose in prominence, we see how they abandoned their isolation tendencies, and somehow those aren't major cultural shifts?
    These are all things high elves do as well.



    High elves aren't shown to be nearly as zealous in the ways of the light as the blood knights are; the only HE group described as light worshiping, and anti magic, are the Highvale, in a very woodsy way.
    That is not big enough of a distinction, people of the same culture can even have entirely different religions and would still be counted among that cultural group

    High Elves don't practice fel magic as openly as blood elves.
    They still practice it

    Highvale elves literally shun magic.
    Most high elves don't

    High Elves have begun to assimilate into humanity. Elisande literally calls them out as peasants that dilute their bloodline.
    What you bang rarely defines ones culture, intermingling isn't taboo among the blood elves.

    Yet all of this misses the point; it's not about how different they are, but about how their differences have set them apart in a course that will keep moving them farther and farther away as a people. For all the cultural shifts BE's have went, the modern High Elves have moved even further away with their assimilation into humanity.
    What sets them apart is minuscule, the high elves have yet to display anything that would show a different culture.

    The WHOLE POINT is that neither of them is a true reflection of Pre Third War High Elves, they have both moved into different paths, they both have had major cultural shifts. But Noooo, there's no great cultural divide.
    The night elf empire banning arcane the core of their culture was a big cultural shift, what the thalassians have done has ultimately barely changed the core aspects of their culture.


    Ah, the void, which is completely anathema to Blood Elf culture that has double down on light worship because the Sunwell is now made of light. How the hell can't you see as yet another obvious bifurcation between the both of them is beyond me.
    And still the void elves revere the sunwell as a holy site.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2021-06-18 at 09:21 AM.

  20. #24300
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Mehlar was a paladin befor the invasion.
    Blood elves kill the trolls that they kill all time the amani
    Mehlar is the only known high elf paladin. Quel'dorei did not have any paladin organisation. That was created by Liadrin by the time they were already blood elves.

    There are number of elves who like to kill trolls. Any kind of trolls, even after they joined Horde... Because trolls were notorious for killing elves for centuries.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Paelarin

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