1. #24281
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    do you understand what culture is? The culture of a nation is a set of cultural elements that the members of that nation share such as language, art, architecture, religion, etc.

    did the thalassian in the alliance stop speaking thalassian? or did they stop worshiping belore?

    what you misunderstand by culture is actually idiology.

    and to clarify matters only the magisters used fel to rebuild cities and the people in general in quelthalas never used fel. The light extracted from Muru was only done by the Blood Knights, it was not something that everyone did. and after the sunwell recovered everything returned to normal, the magisters exchanged fel crystals for mana crystals and blood knights now worship the light.
    Well, let me correct you. Ideology is also one of the important part which forms a nation. You can't dismiss it. Sure, blood elves and high elves speak thalassian, but blood elves had to go through cultural shift they believed is necessary. High elves did not want to go such lengths and were ostracized and exiled. You need to understand this.
    Even later, when Lor'themar approached high elves of Quel'lithien, they refused to rejoin blood elves. The rift went too far. Majority of high elves would not be willing to rejoin sin'dorei. Majority of sin'dorei view high elves as traitors.

  2. #24282
    Bloodsail Admiral elbleuet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They took the name to honor the slaughtered of the scourge invasion, the high elves don't honor the dead as much, that is pretty much the only cultural divergence at this point.

    Otherwise, all heavily value their homeland, have the same art, architecture, history, language and see the sunwell as a holy site.
    Ofc they're the same. High and Blood elves = thalassian elves.

    But stop calling a blood elf High elf whereas he doesn't consider himself as such.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  3. #24283
    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Your blood elves don't identify themselves as high elves. But Alliance High elves do
    error high elves are playable in the horde devs says this

  4. #24284
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Well, let me correct you. Ideology is also one of the important part which forms a nation. You can't dismiss it. Sure, blood elves and high elves speak thalassian, but blood elves had to go through cultural shift they believed is necessary. High elves did not want to go such lengths and were ostracized and exiled. You need to understand this.
    Even later, when Lor'themar approached high elves of Quel'lithien, they refused to rejoin blood elves. The rift went too far. Majority of high elves would not be willing to rejoin sin'dorei. Majority of sin'dorei view high elves as traitors.
    High elves stooped to similar levels eventually, some of them stole artifacts to drain mana, some use fel magic and other embraced the void , the distinction of high elves shunning corruptive magic no longer exists and any moral highground they might have had went with it.

    Especially those in Quel'lithien, who pretty much all became wretched, because they overdosed on an artifact.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2021-06-17 at 10:48 PM.

  5. #24285
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Well, let me correct you. Ideology is also one of the important part which forms a nation. You can't dismiss it. Sure, blood elves and high elves speak thalassian, but blood elves had to go through cultural shift they believed is necessary. High elves did not want to go such lengths and were ostracized and exiled. You need to understand this.
    Even later, when Lor'themar approached high elves of Quel'lithien, they refused to rejoin blood elves. The rift went too far. Majority of high elves would not be willing to rejoin sin'dorei. Majority of sin'dorei view high elves as traitors.
    Do you mean that Republicans and Democrats do not belong to the American nation? that belong to the republican nation and the democrats nation? Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?

  6. #24286
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    High elves stooped to similar levels eventually, some of them stole artifacts to drain mana, some use fel magic and other embraced the void , the distinction of high elves shunning corruptive magic no longer exists and any moral highground they might have had went with it.
    I'm not saying high elves are/were pure. They made their choices which ultimately alienated them from sin'dorei and both groups do not trust each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Do you mean that Republicans and Democrats do not belong to the American nation? that belong to the republican nation and the democrats nation? Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?
    Pretty bad example actually. Republicans and democrats are both legitimate citizens of their country. Blood elves and high elves are not in the same position. At some point, blood elves had to transform their society in order to survive and high elves did not want to do so, so they were exiled. If you look at better example, look at the Republic of China. Once a communist party took control over the country, they made changes which suited their agenda. There were people who disagreed, so they were imprisoned, executed. For these reasons, people in opposition to the official regime fled the country and formed communities which held values before communists came. That does make sense to you?

    Also, another example, Makedonia and Greece. Both are countries of same history, but they both identify differently. Another example, Czech republic and Slovakia. Countries which coexisted together for years, their languages are nearly identical, yet they defined each other diferently. And the list goes on and on.
    Last edited by Vaedan; 2021-06-17 at 10:58 PM.

  7. #24287
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Well, let me correct you. Ideology is also one of the important part which forms a nation. You can't dismiss it. Sure, blood elves and high elves speak thalassian, but blood elves had to go through cultural shift they believed is necessary. High elves did not want to go such lengths and were ostracized and exiled. You need to understand this.
    Even later, when Lor'themar approached high elves of Quel'lithien, they refused to rejoin blood elves. The rift went too far. Majority of high elves would not be willing to rejoin sin'dorei. Majority of sin'dorei view high elves as traitors.
    re-read the short story they were upset that the lorthemar made quelthalas join the horde. they are very angry because nathanos (that moment member of the horde) was attacking them.
    But whatever happened to them, they used a corrupted source of magic and became wretched. the few survivors are now not hostile to the horde


    Last edited by Rhlor; 2021-06-17 at 11:01 PM.

  8. #24288
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    I'm not saying high elves are/were pure. They made their choices which ultimately alienated them from sin'dorei and both groups do not trust each other.
    Some sure, but most certainly not all. Especially those not alligned with the Alliance, might decide to go back home at any time and Lor'themar has yet to outright refuse your average high elf, since he wants unification.

  9. #24289
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    I'm not saying high elves are/were pure. They made their choices which ultimately alienated them from sin'dorei and both groups do not trust each other.



    Pretty bad example actually. Republicans and democrats are both legitimate citizens of their country. Blood elves and high elves are not in the same position. At some point, blood elves had to transform their society in order to survive and high elves did not want to do so, so they were exiled. If you look at better example, look at the Republic of China. Once a communist party took control over the country, they made changes which suited their agenda. There were people who disagreed, so they were imprisoned, executed. For these reasons, people in opposition to the official regime fled the country and formed communities which held values before communists came. That does make sense to you?

    Also, another example, Makedonia and Greece. Both are countries of same history, but they both identify differently. Another example, Czech republic and Slovakia. Countries which coexisted together for years, their languages are nearly identical, yet they defined each other diferently. And the list goes on and on.
    the current quel'thalas is the same as the quelthalas before the invasion. no cultural change

  10. #24290
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    do you understand what culture is? The culture of a nation is a set of cultural elements that the members of that nation share such as language, art, architecture, religion, etc.

    did the thalassian in the alliance stop speaking thalassian? or did they stop worshiping belore?

    what you misunderstand by culture is actually idiology.

    and to clarify matters only the magisters used fel to rebuild cities and the people in general in quelthalas never used fel. The light extracted from Muru was only done by the Blood Knights, it was not something that everyone did. and after the sunwell recovered everything returned to normal, the magisters exchanged fel crystals for mana crystals and blood knights now worship the light.
    If you are going to make the argument that ideology has nothing to do, or affects culture, then there's not much to discuss. You are not even consistent at separating just the aesthetics because you include religion, but not ideology?

    More so even if the change is "only ideological", that doesn't change the fact that blue eyed blood elves would exist still, because all they have to do is to identify with that ideology, even if by your "definition" is not culture *facepalm*

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They took the name to honor the slaughtered of the scourge invasion, the high elves don't honor the dead as much, that is pretty much the only cultural divergence at this point.

    Otherwise, all heavily value their homeland, have the same art, architecture, history, language and see the sunwell as a holy site.
    It's like you are unable to understand that cultures change and evolve.

    Blood Elves markedly changed a lot of their values to survive; to see them just as the High Elves they used to be before the third war, denies them of their strife and growth.

    I STG that I don't understand where this nonsense traditionalism for high elves comes from; the whole point is that BE's had to adapt to survive (and even when Modern HE's kept the name, they also thoroughly changed)

  11. #24291
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    If you are going to make the argument that ideology has nothing to do, or affects culture, then there's not much to discuss. You are not even consistent at separating just the aesthetics because you include religion, but not ideology?

    More so even if the change is "only ideological", that doesn't change the fact that blue eyed blood elves would exist still, because all they have to do is to identify with that ideology, even if by your "definition" is not culture *facepalm*



    It's like you are unable to understand that cultures change and evolve.

    Blood Elves markedly changed a lot of their values to survive; to see them just as the High Elves they used to be before the third war, denies them of their strife and growth.

    I STG that I don't understand where this nonsense traditionalism for high elves comes from; the whole point is that BE's had to adapt to survive (and even when Modern HE's kept the name, they also thoroughly changed)
    there was a terrible crisis years ago but now things are back to normal with the sunwell restored. there is no cultural difference between the pre-invasion quelthalas and the current quelthalas. there is a political difference which is that quelthalas joined the horde.
    their fight is not denied, the patriots of quelthalas won they saved their kingdom! and as they are patriots that if necessary they will kill their own prince because he is loyal to the legion and to his followers they do it for the sake of quelthalas.
    you don't understand blood elves they love quelthalas so much that restoring quelthalas to what it was before the invasion is the greatest achievement and honor for the blood elves that they can go back to living as they did before the invasion is proof of their triumph
    Last edited by Rhlor; 2021-06-18 at 12:22 AM.

  12. #24292
    Pit Lord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    I've come to terms that there's nothing wrong with Blood Elves naming themselves as High Elves, as long as it's not Silver Covenant nor Highvale
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  13. #24293
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    there was a terrible crisis years ago but now things are back to normal
    Lol okay.

    there is no cultural difference between the pre-invasion quelthalas and the current quelthalas.
    Sure Jan, because a nationwide trauma that almost wiped them out doesn't affect the values of a culture at all. JFC how do you even miss how the elves went from traditionalist and methodical, set on their ways, isolationists; to progressively seeking new forms of magic, redefining themselves through their means of survival, even their new worship of the light is completely new to what existed before the fall, leaving behind their isolationism.

    you don't understand blood elves they love quelthalas so much that restoring quelthalas to what it was before the invasion is the greatest achievement and honor for the blood elves that they can go back to living as they did before the invasion is proof of their triumph
    I really, honestly loathe this traditionalist view of Blood Elves when THEIR WHOLE THING is about adapting to survive. As if doing that didn't change them forever, as if they didn't grow as a people in ways they hadn't for centuries.

    It's for real a shame that someone takes the Blood Elves, the exemplar of what means to move forward and reinvent yourself, and claim to love them while holding regressive traditionalist views that go in complete opposite of what the Blood Elves have become.

    You don't like Blood Elves, you just like pre third war High Elves and what them to go back to that.

    You might as well become the High Elf version of Ravenmoon or Mace FFS

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I've come to terms that there's nothing wrong with Blood Elves naming themselves as High Elves, as long as it's not Silver Covenant nor Highvale
    Sure, I do agree with that. But we have yet to see a single Blood Elf referring to themselves as a High Elf in canon. The reason why the changed their name holds meaning, and I hate how people try to erase it in order to pretend they haven't changed at all.

  14. #24294
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Lol okay.



    Sure Jan, because a nationwide trauma that almost wiped them out doesn't affect the values of a culture at all. JFC how do you even miss how the elves went from traditionalist and methodical, set on their ways, isolationists; to progressively seeking new forms of magic, redefining themselves through their means of survival, even their new worship of the light is completely new to what existed before the fall, leaving behind their isolationism.



    I really, honestly loathe this traditionalist view of Blood Elves when THEIR WHOLE THING is about adapting to survive. As if doing that didn't change them forever, as if they didn't grow as a people in ways they hadn't for centuries.

    It's for real a shame that someone takes the Blood Elves, the exemplar of what means to move forward and reinvent yourself, and claim to love them while holding regressive traditionalist views that go in complete opposite of what the Blood Elves have become.

    You don't like Blood Elves, you just like pre third war High Elves and what them to go back to that.

    You might as well become the High Elf version of Ravenmoon or Mace FFS

    - - - Updated - - -



    Sure, I do agree with that. But we have yet to see a single Blood Elf referring to themselves as a High Elf in canon. The reason why the changed their name holds meaning, and I hate how people try to erase it in order to pretend they haven't changed at all.
    You are totally wrong I love the blood elves and I love their characters I love liadrin, lorthemar (the best racial leader of the horde), I love rommath (he is great) and halduron.

    ever read blood of the highborne? faith in the light has always existed in quelthalas high priest Vandellor (liadrin's father) was one of the most important people in quelthalas. Liadrin now as a worshiper of light simply went back to who she was.

    it is true that the government of quel'thalas takes the necessary measures to protect quelthalas. like being part of the horde and looking for new powers that can be useful as the reliquary does.
    but that does not change that life in quelthalas is returning to normal that people are recovering their lives as they were before the invasion that things are going back to the way they were.
    and it is obvious that quelthalas will keep their traditions alive and their lifestyle is why they fought so hard to save their kingdom and all that it is.

  15. #24295
    Pit Lord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Lol okay.



    Sure Jan, because a nationwide trauma that almost wiped them out doesn't affect the values of a culture at all. JFC how do you even miss how the elves went from traditionalist and methodical, set on their ways, isolationists; to progressively seeking new forms of magic, redefining themselves through their means of survival, even their new worship of the light is completely new to what existed before the fall, leaving behind their isolationism.



    I really, honestly loathe this traditionalist view of Blood Elves when THEIR WHOLE THING is about adapting to survive. As if doing that didn't change them forever, as if they didn't grow as a people in ways they hadn't for centuries.

    It's for real a shame that someone takes the Blood Elves, the exemplar of what means to move forward and reinvent yourself, and claim to love them while holding regressive traditionalist views that go in complete opposite of what the Blood Elves have become.

    You don't like Blood Elves, you just like pre third war High Elves and what them to go back to that.

    You might as well become the High Elf version of Ravenmoon or Mace FFS
    to be fair I actually see nothing wrong with Rhlor's narrative, it's not like he wants to take away a huge/major Alliance team and bring it to the Horde
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  16. #24296
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    to be fair I actually see nothing wrong with Rhlor's narrative, it's not like he wants to take away a huge/major Alliance team and bring it to the Horde
    I actually think they should do that. Alteraci humans would be really cool!

  17. #24297
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    You are totally wrong I love the blood elves and I love their characters I love liadrin, lorthemar (the best racial leader of the horde), I love rommath (he is great) and halduron.

    ever read blood of the highborne? faith in the light has always existed in quelthalas high priest Vandellor (liadrin's father) was one of the most important people in quelthalas. Liadrin now as a worshiper of light simply went back to who she was.

    it is true that the government of quel'thalas takes the necessary measures to protect quelthalas. like being part of the horde and looking for new powers that can be useful as the reliquary does.
    but that does not change that life in quelthalas is returning to normal that people are recovering their lives as they were before the invasion that things are going back to the way they were.
    and it is obvious that quelthalas will keep their traditions alive and their lifestyle is why they fought so hard to save their kingdom and all that it is.
    Fate in the Light existed, but was not as important as today. You misinterpret Vandellor's importance. He was foster father of Liadrin, so he was important for her, but claiming he was one of the most important people in Quel'thalas is a stretch. He is not even confirmed to be part of Convocation of Silvermoon.

    Blood elves today wants to go to the direction they were pre-Third War, but there are things that changed forever. It will never be the same. Don't forget that use of Fel is still evident in Silvermoon, as was mentioned by Mathias Shaw in the Eastern Kingdoms book. Also blood knights and paladins are now important part of the society, which were almost non existent pre-Third War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I've come to terms that there's nothing wrong with Blood Elves naming themselves as High Elves, as long as it's not Silver Covenant nor Highvale
    He certainly has a thing for Auric Sunchaser and other Allerian elves, who were the ones who denied their king in the past, left their homeland with Alleria to help the Alliance fight of the Horde.

    In order for blood elves to get back to pre-Third War state, they would need to:

    - Crown a king of noble bloodline.
    - Leave Horde, isolate themselves and care only about their own affairs
    - Abandon blood knight/paladin and warlock training, since such practises were not common among Quel'dorei and only handful individuals delved into.
    - Kill all orcs and trolls on sight for attacking Quel'thalas in the past
    Last edited by Vaedan; 2021-06-18 at 05:15 AM.

  18. #24298
    Pit Lord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    He certainly has a thing for Auric Sunchaser and other Allerian elves, who were the ones who denied their king in the past, left their homeland with Alleria to help the Alliance fight of the Horde.
    to be fair that's the closest thing we can get for non-SC High Elves for the Horde; and I believe at least some of the Allerians can return to Silvermoon after Kael'thas' treachery was exposed and he was defeated
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  19. #24299
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    It's like you are unable to understand that cultures change and evolve.

    Blood Elves markedly changed a lot of their values to survive; to see them just as the High Elves they used to be before the third war, denies them of their strife and growth.

    I STG that I don't understand where this nonsense traditionalism for high elves comes from; the whole point is that BE's had to adapt to survive (and even when Modern HE's kept the name, they also thoroughly changed)
    Sorry but your point lacks any kind of depth, choosing to ensure the survival of ones people is not really a cultural trait

    Tell me what is a genuine cultural difference between a high elf and a blood elf, something that truly sets them apart, just because high elves chose to be the equivalent of anti vaxxers does not mean there is a great cultural divide.

    Being more pragmatic, is most certainly not a big cultural difference, especially if we consider the high elves did it out of moral reasons and later embracing similar methods and embracing the void thus rendering the whole thing utterly moot.

  20. #24300
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    to be fair that's the closest thing we can get for non-SC High Elves for the Horde; and I believe at least some of the Allerians can return to Silvermoon after Kael'thas' treachery was exposed and he was defeated
    Probably, but most them expressed distaste of what blood elves become (TBC Timeline). These elves were strongly anti-Horde, they left their homeland after orcs, ogres and trolls burned Eversong. I tend to believe it's more likely for them to rejoin Alleria. They are her former squad, after all.

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