1. #24301
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    What's the alliance have to do with any of this tho? My issues are about the dismissal of what the Blood Elves have gone through and how they were changed, I really can't respect that sort of opinion; I would actually be more understanding if he actually wanted all the high elves to return to Quel'thalas. I just loathe that people that claim to love Blood Elves would strip them bare of their identity.



    Honestly the kindest, and at the same time most pretentious, thing I can say is that you don't get Blood Elves. It actually bothers me when people that claim to like them completely invalidate their racial identity.

    -Holy Light Worship wasn't a cornerstone of High Elves culture as it is of Blood Elves culture; for one, the freaking Sunwell didn't use to be made half of light. Blood Elves now have a major militant branch of holy, zealous warriors that didn't exist before the Third War. Like come on dude, the cultural shifts literally are part of the gameplay and the lore and you simply dismiss them because "Blood Elves are just like how High Elves used to be" FFS

    -You keep assuming that "things are going back to normal" as if rebuilding MEANS going back to the way thinsg were instead of finding a new normal. Seeing how literally so many aspects of Thalassian culture have changed, it's nonsense to pretend the new normal is the same than the old one.

    -You seem to have no idea what it means for a people to evolve culturally.
    For me the identity of what it means to be a blood elf is to be a patriot, who fights desperately to save his country from dstruction and that he is willing give his life to save his homeland
    Last edited by Rhlor; 2021-06-18 at 09:31 AM.

  2. #24302
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    So far there is nothing to indicate it, they are pretty much the same as they were before.



    These are all things high elves do as well.





    That is not big enough of a distinction, people of the same culture can even have entirely different religions and would still be counted among that cultural group



    They still practice it



    Most high elves don't



    What you bang rarely defines ones culture, intermingling isn't taboo among the blood elves.



    What sets them apart is minuscule, the high elves have yet to display anything that would show a different culture.



    The night elf empire banning arcane the core of their culture was a big cultural shift, what the thalassians have done has ultimately barely changed the core aspects of their culture.




    And still the void elves revere the sunwell as a holy site.
    Honestly the fact that you don't see the huge red flag of Elisande treating the Blood Elves and High Elves so differently as anything major or of note is just hilarious by itself.

    Like yeah you can misread everything to deny there's a notorious cultural shift -because surprise, even living in separate communities leads to compounding cultural shifts, like the Highvale you so glibly dismissed-

    And that's the thing, if you keep dismissing the facts because you don't like them, so, eh? Can't do much really. If the fact that Blood Elves and High Eves keep obviously diverging is something you cannot see, then it's literally not on me.

  3. #24303
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    As if it weren't utterly shortsighted to claim that a whole civilization changing their morals in order to survive -adapt- wouldn't have any sort of long lasting and even permanent effects in their culture.

    We literally see how Fel continues to be openly practiced, we see how the light rose in prominence, we see how they abandoned their isolation tendencies, and somehow those aren't major cultural shifts?



    High elves aren't shown to be nearly as zealous in the ways of the light as the blood knights are; the only HE group described as light worshiping, and anti magic, are the Highvale, in a very woodsy way.

    High Elves don't practice fel magic as openly as blood elves.

    Highvale elves literally shun magic.

    High Elves have begun to assimilate into humanity. Elisande literally calls them out as peasants that dilute their bloodline.

    Yet all of this misses the point; it's not about how different they are, but about how their differences have set them apart in a course that will keep moving them farther and farther away as a people. For all the cultural shifts BE's have went, the modern High Elves have moved even further away with their assimilation into humanity.

    The WHOLE POINT is that neither of them is a true reflection of Pre Third War High Elves, they have both moved into different paths, they both have had major cultural shifts. But Noooo, there's no great cultural divide.



    Ah, the void, which is completely anathema to Blood Elf culture that has double down on light worship because the Sunwell is now made of light. How the hell can't you see as yet another obvious bifurcation between the both of them is beyond me.

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    Theloria shows disgust for the choices the BE's made, Ros'eleth wants to help fix theiur addiction. How do any of those read to you "Yes, I will gladly rejoin the Blood Elves"

    Auric is literally a neutral representative for all elfdom, his whole point is that he wants equal access for all elves, regardless of faction allegiance.

    And you claim he would join the Horde *facepalm*
    Theloria shows sadness because she think all blood elves are followers of kael, but the blood elvez of quelthalas the home that she wanted back fight against kael.
    Auric also says they must be united to avenge the destruction of sunwell and quelthalas
    Last edited by Rhlor; 2021-06-18 at 09:36 AM.

  4. #24304
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    For me the ifentity of what it means to be a blood elf is to be a patriot, who fights desperately to save his country from dstruction and that he is willing give his life to save his homeland.
    It's like you are THIS close to getting it, but you know you won't.

    "Wow, I wonder if the lengths we are going to protect certain values and our security won't deeply change other aspects of our way of living on the long run"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Theloria shows sadness because she think all blood elves are followers of kael, but the blood elvez of quelthalas the home that she wanted back fight against kael.
    Auric also says they must be united to avenge the destruction of sunwell and quelthalas
    How EITHER of those things mean they are willing and happy to rejoin the Blood Elves? Alleria herself wants those things, Vereesa too, and neither of them want to join the BE's and the Horde FFS!!

    How the hell do you reconcile the idea that "Blood Elves are just like High Elves were" with the fact that other High Elves, in universe, see their actions as so anathema they are unwilling to re-join them? HOW?!?!

    I guess your answer would be "those High Elves changed" lol

  5. #24305
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    It's like you are THIS close to getting it, but you know you won't.

    "Wow, I wonder if the lengths we are going to protect certain values and our security won't deeply change other aspects of our way of living on the long run"

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    How EITHER of those things mean they are willing and happy to rejoin the Blood Elves? Alleria herself wants those things, Vereesa too, and neither of them want to join the BE's and the Horde FFS!!

    How the hell do you reconcile the idea that "Blood Elves are just like High Elves were" with the fact that other High Elves, in universe, see their actions as so anathema they are unwilling to re-join them? HOW?!?!

    I guess your answer would be "those High Elves changed" lol
    actualy yes and And you agree

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    .

    High Elves have begun to assimilate into humanity. Elisande literally calls them out as peasants that dilute their bloodline.

    Yet all of this misses the point; it's not about how different they are, but about how their differences have set them apart in a course that will keep moving them farther and farther away as a people. For all the cultural shifts BE's have went, the modern High Elves have moved even further away with their assimilation into humanity.




    It is as you say with time the high elves of the alliance will have a cultural change.
    the blood elves are the ones who maintain the traditions and racial identity of the high elves before the invasion

  6. #24306
    Bloodsail Admiral elbleuet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    actualy yes and And you agree



    It is as you say with time the high elves of the alliance will have a cultural change.
    the blood elves are the ones who maintain the traditions and racial identity of the high elves before the invasion
    Both groups maintain their traditions since the end of TBC.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  7. #24307
    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Both groups maintain their traditions since the end of TBC.
    So I say with the passage of time.

  8. #24308
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Honestly the fact that you don't see the huge red flag of Elisande treating the Blood Elves and High Elves so differently as anything major or of note is just hilarious by itself.

    Like yeah you can misread everything to deny there's a notorious cultural shift -because surprise, even living in separate communities leads to compounding cultural shifts, like the Highvale you so glibly dismissed-

    And that's the thing, if you keep dismissing the facts because you don't like them, so, eh? Can't do much really. If the fact that Blood Elves and High Eves keep obviously diverging is something you cannot see, then it's literally not on me.
    Sorry I have standards, wow cultures are piss poor bottom tier to begin with, with hardly any culture being even remotely fleshed out, everything we see in wow is pretty much one big blob.

  9. #24309
    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Both groups maintain their traditions since the end of TBC.
    I'd say both groups maintain some facets of the pre-Third War Era, but none of them in precisely same way.

  10. #24310
    I don't think it's realistic to say that the high elves living in human society haven't changed over time. Living in an entirely different society requires adaptation and compromise. Some traditions have likely been abandoned because they don't fit in or aren't practical in the society those high elves now find themselves living in.

    If anything I'd say that the blood elves of quel'thalas have likely retained most of the traditions and culture of their fore-bearers. That's not to say they haven't seen changes to their culture over the years, only that they've retained much more of their past traditions and seen less change in their culture than say high elves living in stormwind or highvale.

    Do they all share the same history? Yes. But do they now share the same traditions and culture? I'd say that, while they may have a few things in common culturally, at this point I'd be truly surprised if their cultural differences didn't outweigh their similarities.

    It's not about "who you bang". It's about where you live, who you're living with, and how you have to change to fit in to that environment. If you move to a new country, you will absolutely have to change to adapt to that culture, otherwise you'll have problems. And even if you refuse to change much, your progeny (if you have any) will almost certainly change far more than you because they are actually growing up in this new society while you did not. They will naturally seek to adapt to the environment they find themselves growing in and thus their culture and values will shift.

    It's like if an american moved to england. Sure they don't have to worry about communication, but certain phrases that might seem innocuous in the united states could be taken as rude or offensive in england. The opposite is also true, and the immigrant would need to get used to phrases they might find offensive being part of casual discourse in their new country. There's a lot of little changes you'd have to make when moving to a new country... like learning to pump your own gas for example. All those changes add up and, over time, can shift your outlook and views or that of your children, leading to your future generations being culturally removed from your original homeland. The degree of that removal can vary depending on the contrasts and especially the reasons why you left in the first place.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2021-06-18 at 01:50 PM.

  11. #24311
    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Both groups maintain their traditions since the end of TBC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    It is as you say with time the high elves of the alliance will have a cultural change.
    the blood elves are the ones who maintain the traditions and racial identity of the high elves before the invasion
    JFC the point is BOTH changed culturally, distinct in different degrees of what they were. The whole "whose the real high elves" is just such a pointless question. Both groups will veer off from what they once were, not completely, of course both will hold on to certain traditions, but the whole thing is they are a progression of what they once were.

    Again, to be clear, some traditions will be maintained and both groups will have a sense of continuity, but the thing about cultural evolution is that it is natural, every culture evolves and changes, is just that the fall of Quel'thalas sped that process.

    Like how Kaldorei and Shaldorei have gone into different cultural paths, but they both still worship elune and moon imagery remains an aesthetic cornerstone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Sorry I have standards, wow cultures are piss poor bottom tier to begin with, with hardly any culture being even remotely fleshed out, everything we see in wow is pretty much one big blob.
    Yeah, definitely on you then.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I don't think it's realistic to say that the high elves living in human society haven't changed over time. Living in an entirely different society requires adaptation and compromise. Some traditions have likely been abandoned because they don't fit in or aren't practical in the society those high elves now find themselves living in.

    If anything I'd say that the blood elves of quel'thalas have likely retained most of the traditions and culture of their fore-bearers. That's not to say they haven't seen changes to their culture over the years, only that they've retained much more of their past traditions and seen less change in their culture than say high elves living in stormwind or highvale.

    Do they all share the same history? Yes. But do they now share the same traditions and culture? I'd say that, while they may have a few things in common culturally, at this point I'd be truly surprised if their cultural differences didn't outweigh their similarities.

    It's not about "who you bang". It's about where you live, who you're living with, and how you have to change to fit in to that environment. If you move to a new country, you will absolutely have to change to adapt to that culture, otherwise you'll have problems. And even if you refuse to change much, your progeny (if you have any) will almost certainly change far more than you because they are actually growing up in this new society while you did not. They will naturally seek to adapt to the environment they find themselves growing in and thus their culture and values will shift.

    It's like if an american moved to england. Sure they don't have to worry about communication, but certain phrases that might seem innocuous in the united states could be taken as rude or offensive in england. The opposite is also true, and the immigrant would need to get used to phrases they might find offensive being part of casual discourse in their new country. There's a lot of little changes you'd have to make when moving to a new country... like learning to pump your own gas for example. All those changes add up and, over time, can shift your outlook and views or that of your children, leading to your future generations being culturally removed from your original homeland. The degree of that removal can vary depending on the contrasts and especially the reasons why you left in the first place.
    Basically this. I do agree that High Elves will perhaps change more over time from their original culture and homeland. As any group of expats, they will start diverging with time. Is simply cultural drift.

    And I do agree that Blood Elves might have changed less, but what they went through DID changed them, and that cannot be dismissed, they just didn't rename themselves for branding purposes; it's just wild to me that some people really expect that a society that was almost extinguished and renamed themselves in honor of their fallen, and shifted their focus on survival, won't have long lasting cultural changes that will set them apart on a significant measure from what they were.

  12. #24312
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    JFC the point is BOTH changed culturally, distinct in different degrees of what they were. The whole "whose the real high elves" is just such a pointless question. Both groups will veer off from what they once were, not completely, of course both will hold on to certain traditions, but the whole thing is they are a progression of what they once were.

    Again, to be clear, some traditions will be maintained and both groups will have a sense of continuity, but the thing about cultural evolution is that it is natural, every culture evolves and changes, is just that the fall of Quel'thalas sped that process.

    Like how Kaldorei and Shaldorei have gone into different cultural paths, but they both still worship elune and moon imagery remains an aesthetic cornerstone.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah, definitely on you then.
    elves are immortal (or at least they live as long as draenei) so I can say that a pureblood elf who lives thousands of years will uphold their traditions better than a short lived half elf

  13. #24313
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    I'd say both groups maintain some facets of the pre-Third War Era, but none of them in precisely same way.
    Exactly; it's what happened to the night elves after the Sundering but on a lesser degree, with significant groups focusing on different cultural aspects and evolving accordingly. Neither is the exact same culture than the NE empire was, they changed over time, and the same thing will continue to happen to HE and BE's.

    Also I don't get the assumption that Blood Elves want to go back to how things were. They take great pride in their survival and I have yet to see a single Blood Elf in game being "we should go back to be high elves now guys". It's just personally weird that BE's, who are one of the most progressive groups -mostly out of convenience- would lead to a traditionalist movement.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    elves are immortal (or at least they live as long as draenei) so I can say that a pureblood elf who lives thousands of years will uphold their traditions better than a short lived half elf
    I literally gave you the example of NE and NB, some of them who adapted to the new culture on their own lifetimes... SMH

    More so, you still keep making the assumption that Blood Elves want to maintain their culture the way it was, instead of progressing it -as their usage of fel and larger holy light worships heavily suggests-

    The BE culture is notoriously different already than what it was by the existence of the Blood Knights alone as a more prominent and culturally respected institution that the Farstriders, and you continue to claim it's the same than pre third war? And don't even get me started on Warlocks and the usage of fel, that was heavily banned before and now Warlocks are a staple of the BE military; and let's not forget the shift on mages from preferring ice magic as HE's were described to, preferring now fire magics.

  14. #24314
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Exactly; it's what happened to the night elves after the Sundering but on a lesser degree, with significant groups focusing on different cultural aspects and evolving accordingly. Neither is the exact same culture than the NE empire was, they changed over time, and the same thing will continue to happen to HE and BE's.

    Also I don't get the assumption that Blood Elves want to go back to how things were. They take great pride in their survival and I have yet to see a single Blood Elf in game being "we should go back to be high elves now guys". It's just personally weird that BE's, who are one of the most progressive groups -mostly out of convenience- would lead to a traditionalist movement.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I literally gave you the example of NE and NB, some of them who adapted to the new culture on their own lifetimes... SMH

    More so, you still keep making the assumption that Blood Elves want to maintain their culture the way it was, instead of progressing it -as their usage of fel and larger holy light worships heavily suggests-

    The BE culture is notoriously different already than what it was by the existence of the Blood Knights alone as a more prominent and culturally respected institution that the Farstriders, and you continue to claim it's the same than pre third war? And don't even get me started on Warlocks and the usage of fel, that was heavily banned before and now Warlocks are a staple of the BE military; and let's not forget the shift on mages from preferring ice magic as HE's were described to, preferring now fire magics.
    the blood knight are more respected than the farstrider ?? LOL

    literally everything quelthalas is protected by farstriders and the racial leader who is loved by all is a farstrider! In addition to the fact that the blood knights are not an independent organization, they are under the command of the grand magister as the highest authority.

    actually the high elves used fire magic against the amani to prevent them from regenerating their limbs is more the victory in the trolls wars was thanks to a gigantic fire spell.

  15. #24315
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    the blood knight are more respected than the farstrider ?? LOL

    literally everything quelthalas is protected by farstriders and the racial leader who is loved by all is a farstrider! In addition to the fact that the blood knights are not an independent organization, they are under the command of the grand magister as the highest authority.

    actually the high elves used fire magic against the amani to prevent them from regenerating their limbs is more the victory in the trolls wars was thanks to a gigantic fire spell.
    It's utterly pointless talking with you simply go "lol no" because it doesn't fit what you want to believe.

    Blood Knights salute you when you /eye wards, Liadrin -not Halduron- lead the military contingent to Suramar -more so, Liadrin has oftentimes taken the place that the Ranger General should have. Nothing suggests that Liadrin is under the command of Rommath.

    "actually high elves used fire magic" jesus christ that they know fire magic and used it when necessary/useful it's not the same than what magic was preferred. Like that's early wow lore "high elves prefer frost magic, blood elves fire magic" but go ahead and just dismiss it, as you do anything that doesn't fit what you wanna believe.

  16. #24316
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    It's utterly pointless talking with you simply go "lol no" because it doesn't fit what you want to believe.

    Blood Knights salute you when you /eye wards, Liadrin -not Halduron- lead the military contingent to Suramar -more so, Liadrin has oftentimes taken the place that the Ranger General should have. Nothing suggests that Liadrin is under the command of Rommath.

    "actually high elves used fire magic" jesus christ that they know fire magic and used it when necessary/useful it's not the same than what magic was preferred. Like that's early wow lore "high elves prefer frost magic, blood elves fire magic" but go ahead and just dismiss it, as you do anything that doesn't fit what you wanna believe.
    read blood of the highborne, rommath is liadrin's boss, she responds to his orders and makes reports for rommath. Like the blood mage, the blood knight is under the orbit of the magister.

    do you remember 4.1? where halduron says that he is responsible for the defense of quelthalas?
    the farstriders and magisters are the two highest quelthalas organizations as they always were

  17. #24317
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    read blood of the highborne, rommath is liadrin's boss, she responds to his orders and makes reports for rommath. Like the blood mage, the blood knight is under the orbit of the magister.

    do you remember 4.1? where halduron says that he is responsible for the defense of quelthalas?
    the farstriders and magisters are the two highest quelthalas organizations as they always were
    And you are continually dismissing every instance were Liadrin has taken command since WoD. Cause sending expeditions under the command of paladins was something high elves always did.

    Honestly if you wanna keep trying to plug the holes of your sinking ship of an argument, you do you.

  18. #24318
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    And you are continually dismissing every instance were Liadrin has taken command since WoD. Cause sending expeditions under the command of paladins was something high elves always did.

    Honestly if you wanna keep trying to plug the holes of your sinking ship of an argument, you do you.
    she is an efficient military commander. that does not change that after lorthemar the two people with the most power in quelthalas are halduron and rommath the leaders of the two most important organizations and the blood knights are under the orbit of the magister. the game is not the only source of lore there are also the novels

  19. #24319
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    I think this is going nowhere and so y'all should end it here now.
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  20. #24320
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Yeah, definitely on you then.
    What that blizz writes shallow almost non entities, or that you genuinely believe that two liners actually are a meaningful cultural difference?

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