Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[FlubberPuddy]

It's pretty simple. If it doesn't say High Elf on the character creation screen when choosing a race you're not a High Elf.
You're free to create a Blood Elf or a Void Elf and RP as a High Elf though.

Should tell this to all the Blood Elf players who keep saying they're High Elves, these days I often see that more.

[Yarathir]

Should tell this to all the Blood Elf players who keep saying they're High Elves, these days I often see that more.

Pretty much this.

[Tanaria]

Pretty much this.

Don't forget to tell yourself that as well.

[Kyriani]

Ion says blood elves and void elves are high elves so...

[elbleuet]

Horde players are playing blue-eyed blood elves or a few high elves freshly returned to QT

Alliance players are playing most of the remaining High elves.

Period.

[Varodoc]

How is this so hard to understand?

"High elves" (like Silver Covenant/Highvale) = Pure High elves without any corruption of any kind;

Blood elves = High elves twisted by Fel;

Void elves: High elves twisted by Void.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

enoguh to use their racials, isn't rocket science.

Wonder how will age when/if we get new VE initiates made of High Elves then lol.

no im not? it is on the playable ones lore?
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Mechagnome_(playable)

its not just "remove their limbs and put a prostethic arm in the place" it is full reverse the curse of flesh in a limb, it is even highlight by their racials with then having organic light.

Okay so you basically didn't read the comic I literally linked to you. Come on, make an effort.

they experimented with ancient technology to reverse the Curse of Flesh and become living machines.

THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT HAPPENS IN THE COMIC AFTER ERAZMIN LEAVES, AND WE SEE IT BEING USED FOR THE FIRST TIME. THAT'S WHAT KING MECHAGON HAD BEEN WORKING ON AN TESTED ON THE GNOME EXPLORER.

im not dismissing im taking then in account, i talk about then several times, but again, that is another case as their are a class, trying to put them in the same bag is a false equivalence..

And that's why any critique you make is entirely surface. It's like you are unable to see the inconsistencies of treating Illidari as merely "another class" and completely dismiss how the lore itself might not be a one to one reflection of gameplay categorization. "Demon Hunters are a class" is the laziest read of the situation as you, again, completely dismiss how regardless of game mechanics, their biology has changed on a manner far more similar to LFD and VE than anything else. Death Knight's are also a class, but they are physiologically different and far more closer to forsaken than their original races.

Except i never said anything about personal immersion, you are attacking a point that i never made, i was talking about lore and the canon origins, while you stating the canon is wrong and to be a elf is a mere "self identity thing" when its not.

Lol and you say that when I literally replied this before? You gave up on actually reading what one is actually writing a long time ago lmao.

Race in WoW only works if it's understood as the interactions between biology, culture, identity and society of a group, because the absence of one of them by themselves does not preclude a race from being a "race". You can't reduce it to biology when we literally see the absence of that variable on mechagnomes, and yet we see it on Illidari DH

You dismiss what doesn't fit your argument (Illidari) and misread and misrepresent the lore (mechagnomes)

[Tanaria]

How is this so hard to understand?

"High elves" (like Silver Covenant/Highvale) = Pure High elves without any corruption of any kind;

Blood elves = High elves twisted by Fel;

Void elves: High elves twisted by Void.

Blood Elves are not "twisted" by fel.

Anyone who thinks this needs to revise the lore of one of the best races in Azeroth. Period.

[Varodoc]

Horde players are playing blue-eyed blood elves or a few high elves freshly returned to QT

Alliance players are playing most of the remaining High elves.

Period.

The former only. I doubt any High elf would return to Quel'Thalas. They left it in the first place because they wanted to remain pure, and not be twisted and mutated by Fel magic.

It could be a Blood elf who somehow never got mutated by Fel magic, and thus retains their blue eye. But how this is possibly, I do not know. Maybe they were away from Quel'Thalas in TBC.

[Tanaria]

The former only. I doubt any High elf would return to Quel'Thalas. They left it in the first place because they wanted to remain pure, and not be twisted and mutated by Fel magic.

Only fools think that blood elves are mutated by fel magic.

Clearly don't know the core lore for the main Thalassian race.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

This is true. "Race" is a social construct arbitrarily assigned by human minds. There is no physical reality behind it. This is because any physical differences between population groups gradually change across a gradient, and there are no hard and set boundaries with neat little boxes that separate demes. Clinal distribution is an accurate representation of populations and genetic differences, not "race." In fact, you can take a person from one country in Europe, profile their DNA, and they can be much closer related to someone from Africa than a neighboring European country.

Humans experienced a genetic bottleneck around 50,000 to 60,000 years ago that reduced genetic variability when compared to other animal species: most likely a pandemic that left only a few hundred human beings alive. This means we are all very closely related genetically, like one big extended family. And much like having siblings with different eye colors, hair colors, or blood types, we can look different even though we are very similar to each other in terms of genes.

Ethnicity is real, however, because ethnicity explicitly understands that it is a social construct from the outset. Ethnicity doesn't suggest a difference in species, like "race" does, as it is merely a description of an isolated cultural group. Culture is something we can discuss scientifically, whereas "race" was something invented to justify attitudes of "superiority" and colonial oppression of the Other. Exploitation is profitable, and a whole category of pseudoscience ("race") was invented to prop it up to keep the money train rolling along.

"There are no races, there are only clines." -Frank Livingston

(P.S. My bachelor's degree is in anthropology, so I know what I'm talking about.)

That's why it's so silly to define race in WoW solely by the biological component. If there is a valid conceptualization in WoW about race, it has to take into account both culture and society of the group. Biology alone does not a race make, nor is necessary according WoW itself. If Blood Elves and High Elves are the same race, so are Maghar and Orcs.

I do think most of the WoW "races" would fit more with the concept of ethnicity, but I would think that wouldn't apply to "races" that are afflicted by curses/cosmic forces, as you can't really change your ethnic group.

That's why "race" is a weird term in WoW, and really only makes sense as a more complex grouping that not only accounts for biology, but also society and culture.

- - - Updated - - -

he thinks race is about what magic is inside of you, and that Thalassian races aren't just an ethnicity of elf that is split up between cultures... It's sort of like how There are many human ethnicities, lets say Thalassians are Europeans. You're going to have a hard time telling an englishman from a german because the difference does not matter, what makes them different is culture, and an ethnic anglo raised in Germany, or tries really hard to adopt German customs, is a German. It's the same with elves, only much less complicated because high/blood/void are just schools of thought, and can reasonably be switched between with little trouble with you likely wouldn't find protest in the Warcraft Universe.

Some people might turn their heads at a purple skinned, tentacle-faced void elf calling himself a high elf, but for the rest of them it's not a huge deal. Blood Elves look to Silvermoon for guidance and believe in building back the motherland and discarding traditions and becoming what they must to survive. High Elves believe in holding to previous convictions, old allegiances and believe in preserving what they were. Void Elves fall more in line with the former, only they do not strive for nationhood, but enlightenment.

It's way more interesting than 'durr you put void energy in body u no longer blood elf '. He'd call Demon Hunters a race too if they were simply called "Fel'dorei" or something, but they never gave themselves a name, so they are still blood elves and night elves I guess? :copium:


Viewing the lore from a gameplay perspective is so boring, instead of looking at the merit of what is designed through the lens of a world first.

For me the issue is taking the gameplay distinctions as the sole prescriptive notion without considering the obvious existence of lore and gameplay segregation in a game. If everything that we see during gameplay is "lore" then the world really just doesn't make sense, you have to use at least a iota of critical thinking to see the overall context so you don't end up believing stuff that contradicts each other.

Saying Illidari wouldn't count as a race because they are a "class" is just putting a gameplay classification in a place where it does not make sense. Logically, Illidari are as distinct from thalassians as VE's are, they are utterly infused with a magical energy, yet the gameplay treats them as different things. So it's either that Illidari should be considered another race and gameplay=/=Lore, or biology alone does not make a race and if they still consider themselves Blood Elves no one is going to tell them "akshually you're a Fel Elf okay?"

[Tanaria]

Saying Illidari wouldn't count as a race because they are a "class" is just putting a gameplay classification in a place where it does not make sense. Logically, Illidari are as distinct from thalassians as VE's are, they are utterly infused with a magical energy, yet the gameplay treats them as different things. So it's either that Illidari should be considered another race and gameplay=/=Lore, or biology alone does not make a race and if they still consider themselves Blood Elves no one is going to tell them "akshually you're a Fel Elf okay?"

Illidari is a faction, not a race.

I mean we've got the Illidari Demon Hunters, but also the old Illidari Elite Blood Elven fighting force, just beyond the Den of Mortal Delights.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Except i never said anything about personal immersion, you are attacking a point that i never made, i was talking about lore and the canon origins, while you stating the canon is wrong and to be a elf is a mere "self identity thing" when its not.

I said, countless of times, that people can RP whatever they want, but there is a distinction between canon and headcanon, but aparently some people are not honest enough to take that into account and will distort everything being said..

You can also separete lore from your immersion as it seems, because this literally goes against the lore, as you do not play a high elf, but a void elf with the appearence of a high elf, this si the lore, and this is what i pointed out.

Again, no problem in RP that and create that backstory, the problem is when you think that is the reality and start creating nonsense arguments like "a race is another race by mere identifying themselves as it".

All I know is that you contradict yourself. You call me out for separating lore from my immersion, in the same breath you say "I don't have a problem with the RP you have"

And honestly? It really seems all of this stems of you misinterpreting my arguments. You care conflating my criticism of the concept of race in WoW as MY MOTIVE, when my personal immersion is separate from that belief, since my High Elves are just high elves with no void whatsoever, I'm not pretzeling in any logic to make my void elves into high elves, and it kinda baffles me how you mixed up the two concepts on the first place.

And all of this, because you are fixated on the idea that elves have to become mutated enough to use spatial rift lmao.

[Syegfryed]

This. Anyone mention to @Syegfryed yet that by his logic Dark Irons are a different race than Dwarves yet Moira had no issues birthing a Dark Iron Dwarf baby with 'another race'

Dark iron are a different race of dwarf, Do you think it is absurd two races or species having baby with another race? did you know Garona? who had orc and draenei parents? by your logic draenei and orcs are the same race

is a fail attempt at gotcha

Wonder how will age when/if we get new VE initiates made of High Elves then lol.

i don't see a problem of new VE being mutated from HE of other orgs.

Okay so you basically didn't read the comic I literally linked to you. Come on, make an effort.

THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT HAPPENS IN THE COMIC AFTER ERAZMIN LEAVES, AND WE SEE IT BEING USED FOR THE FIRST TIME. THAT'S WHAT KING MECHAGON HAD BEEN WORKING ON AN TESTED ON THE GNOME EXPLORER.

yes, this is what i said...? the mechagnomes are the ones who mechanize themselves turning back the curse of flesh, isn't just prosthetic.

And that's why any critique you make is entirely surface. It's like you are unable to see the inconsistencies of treating Illidari as merely "another class" and completely dismiss how the lore itself might not be a one to one reflection of gameplay categorization.

Still cherrypicking the DH after being constantly revised is the most pure form of Undistributed Middle fallacy as you see two things sharing a property, and think that makes them the same thing, this fallacy was being used over and over here when yout ry to make then also the same as dwarves and other allied races(but of course not the ones they are more close to) whille prompt ignoring the rest because implies something you don't want

Lol and you say that when I literally replied this before? You gave up on actually reading what one is actually writing a long time ago lmao.

pot meets kettle

You dismiss what doesn't fit your argument (Illidari) and misread and misrepresent the lore (mechagnomes)

Nope i didn't dismiss, you in contrast try to say they are the same thing, ignoring the differences and i still don't know where you get the "misread and misrepresent" mechagnomes lore as it is in their own official page

he thinks race is about what magic is inside of you

Nope, i didn't, thats shows you either didn't read what i said or straight up ignored and are still going for the headcanon thinking is true.

. It's the same with elves, only much less complicated because high/blood/void are just schools of thought, and can reasonably be switched between with little trouble with you likely wouldn't find protest in the Warcraft Universe.

No isn't, that is a straight up made up thing that its not truth with the warcraft universe/lore. gonna ignore the rest because is just a weak attempt at appeal to ridicule fallacy while lying about what i said.

All I know is that you contradict yourself. You call me out for separating lore from my immersion, in the same breath you say "I don't have a problem with the RP you have"

This isn't a call out, you said you separate gameplay from immersion, but you also separate from lore to create a backstory that is not the canon one, as void elves are a new race of elves not just elves playing void magic. If you want to TP that is one thing, like i said, my problem is when people start to think that is true.

And honestly? It really seems all of this stems of you misinterpreting my arguments. You care conflating my criticism of the concept of race in WoW as MY MOTIVE, when my personal immersion is separate from that belief, since my High Elves are just high elves with no void whatsoever, I'm not pretzeling in any logic to make my void elves into high elves, and it kinda baffles me how you mixed up the two concepts on the first place.

And all of this, because you are fixated on the idea that elves have to become mutated enough to use spatial rift lmao.

in this same quote you are contradicting yourself, you are saying you don't want any logic to make void elves into high elves but then say they don't need to mutate to be a void elf

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Illidari is a faction, not a race.

I mean we've got the Illidari Demon Hunters, but also the old Illidari Elite Blood Elven fighting force, just beyond the Den of Mortal Delights.

In case I wasn't clear, I'm referring to the Illidari that have become suffused with fel energy and gown wings, horns and fel spots.

As I literally said in the post you quoted: "biology alone does not make a race"

Logically, Illidari are as distinct from thalassians as VE's are

But we don't treat them as a different race, because:

Biology alone does not make a race

[Tanaria]

In case I wasn't clear, I'm referring to the Illidari that have become suffused with fel energy and gown wings, horns and fel spots.

As I literally said in the post you quoted: "biology alone does not make a race"

Logically, Illidari are as distinct from thalassians as VE's are

But we don't treat them as a different race, because:

Biology alone does not make a race

But it's wrong to even assume that the "Illidari" is any kind of race, because it never was. It's a faction. Currently, the faction is:
Blood Elves
Night Elves
Naga
Shivarra
Broken Draenei

You and I agree on the same thing.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

SNIP

-FFS, Mechagnomes didn't try to use the "De-Curse" ray until recently, up until then they literally just replaced their parts with technology. Up until them their method of "reversing the curse of flesh" was literally just replacing body parts, how are you not getting this??

-You have yet to give a solid argument about HOW Demon Hunters are unlike VE's and LFD beyond the gameplay treating them as a class. Lmao they are not just "sharing a property", they share an entire checklist with VE and LFD EXCEPT for gameplay classification.

- - - Updated - - -

But it's wrong to even assume that the "Illidari" is any kind of race, because it never was. It's a faction. Currently, the faction is:
Blood Elves
Night Elves
Naga
Shivarra
Broken Draenei

You and I agree on the same thing.

Again, I was using the term "illidari" to refer to the subsection of elven demon hunters. It's the same issue of referring to "high elves" as a race, or "high elf" as the current modern group. The whole point is that naming is considerably an issue of self identification than merely a biological litmus test.

[elbleuet]

So Dark Iron dwarves are another race of dwarves but Wildhammer dwarves are just Bronzebeard dwarves with war paints according to @Syegfryed.

Someone tells him these are just clans of a same race that used to live together in Ironforge under the same king until recently ?

[Syegfryed]

-FFS, Mechagnomes didn't try to use the "De-Curse" ray until recently, up until then they literally just replaced their parts with technology. Up until them their method of "reversing the curse of flesh" was literally just replacing body parts, how are you not getting this??

And what are you not getting that the playable mechagnomes are the ones who used the "de-curse" ray? therefore, they having a significant distinction of normal gnomes that are not just replacing limbs? like, you don't play regular kul'tiran, you play the giant ones

-You have yet to give a solid argument about HOW Demon Hunters are unlike VE's and LFD beyond the gameplay treating them as a class. Lmao they are not just "sharing a property", they share an entire checklist with VE and LFD EXCEPT for gameplay classification.

All the arguments were solid, and were talk about over and over, you do not like then that is on you, but im not going to keep revisiting with this attempt at gaslight.

So Dark Iron dwarves are another race of dwarves but Wildhammer dwarves are just Bronzebeard dwarves with war paints according to @Syegfryed.

Someone tells him these are just clans of a same race that used to live together in Ironforge under the same king until recently ?

yes, as you can see, dark iron are changed/mutated, by the power of ragnaros, therefore, not the same race anymore, unlike the wildhammer, void elves are very akin to dark iron in this stance, but you want then to be akin to wildhammer, again with the same false equivalence in an attempt at gotcha.

[elbleuet]

All the arguments were solid

Just like all your previous arguments to support your opposition to playable fair skinned, blue eyed Alliance High elves I suppose ?

They were not, and you were proved wrong by Blizzard.