Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Illidari is a faction, not a race.

I mean we've got the Illidari Demon Hunters, but also the old Illidari Elite Blood Elven fighting force, just beyond the Den of Mortal Delights.

In case I wasn't clear, I'm referring to the Illidari that have become suffused with fel energy and gown wings, horns and fel spots.

As I literally said in the post you quoted: "biology alone does not make a race"

Logically, Illidari are as distinct from thalassians as VE's are

But we don't treat them as a different race, because:

Biology alone does not make a race

[Tanaria]

In case I wasn't clear, I'm referring to the Illidari that have become suffused with fel energy and gown wings, horns and fel spots.

As I literally said in the post you quoted: "biology alone does not make a race"

Logically, Illidari are as distinct from thalassians as VE's are

But we don't treat them as a different race, because:

Biology alone does not make a race

But it's wrong to even assume that the "Illidari" is any kind of race, because it never was. It's a faction. Currently, the faction is:
Blood Elves
Night Elves
Naga
Shivarra
Broken Draenei

You and I agree on the same thing.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

SNIP

-FFS, Mechagnomes didn't try to use the "De-Curse" ray until recently, up until then they literally just replaced their parts with technology. Up until them their method of "reversing the curse of flesh" was literally just replacing body parts, how are you not getting this??

-You have yet to give a solid argument about HOW Demon Hunters are unlike VE's and LFD beyond the gameplay treating them as a class. Lmao they are not just "sharing a property", they share an entire checklist with VE and LFD EXCEPT for gameplay classification.

- - - Updated - - -

But it's wrong to even assume that the "Illidari" is any kind of race, because it never was. It's a faction. Currently, the faction is:
Blood Elves
Night Elves
Naga
Shivarra
Broken Draenei

You and I agree on the same thing.

Again, I was using the term "illidari" to refer to the subsection of elven demon hunters. It's the same issue of referring to "high elves" as a race, or "high elf" as the current modern group. The whole point is that naming is considerably an issue of self identification than merely a biological litmus test.

[elbleuet]

So Dark Iron dwarves are another race of dwarves but Wildhammer dwarves are just Bronzebeard dwarves with war paints according to @Syegfryed.

Someone tells him these are just clans of a same race that used to live together in Ironforge under the same king until recently ?

[Syegfryed]

-FFS, Mechagnomes didn't try to use the "De-Curse" ray until recently, up until then they literally just replaced their parts with technology. Up until them their method of "reversing the curse of flesh" was literally just replacing body parts, how are you not getting this??

And what are you not getting that the playable mechagnomes are the ones who used the "de-curse" ray? therefore, they having a significant distinction of normal gnomes that are not just replacing limbs? like, you don't play regular kul'tiran, you play the giant ones

-You have yet to give a solid argument about HOW Demon Hunters are unlike VE's and LFD beyond the gameplay treating them as a class. Lmao they are not just "sharing a property", they share an entire checklist with VE and LFD EXCEPT for gameplay classification.

All the arguments were solid, and were talk about over and over, you do not like then that is on you, but im not going to keep revisiting with this attempt at gaslight.

So Dark Iron dwarves are another race of dwarves but Wildhammer dwarves are just Bronzebeard dwarves with war paints according to @Syegfryed.

Someone tells him these are just clans of a same race that used to live together in Ironforge under the same king until recently ?

yes, as you can see, dark iron are changed/mutated, by the power of ragnaros, therefore, not the same race anymore, unlike the wildhammer, void elves are very akin to dark iron in this stance, but you want then to be akin to wildhammer, again with the same false equivalence in an attempt at gotcha.

[elbleuet]

All the arguments were solid

Just like all your previous arguments to support your opposition to playable fair skinned, blue eyed Alliance High elves I suppose ?

They were not, and you were proved wrong by Blizzard.

[Tanaria]

yes, as you can see, dark iron are changed/mutated, by the power of ragnaros, therefore, not the same race anymore, unlike the wildhammer, void elves are very akin to dark iron in this stance, but you want then to be akin to wildhammer, again with the same false equivalence in an attempt at gotcha.

The difference with all of this, is that when it comes to the Elves and Dwarves - it's more of a political difference.

Nobody has changed race. The only Elves that have ever changed from one race to a complete other are the Highborne Night Elves, loyal to Azshara who were changed to Naga.
We've also got the same Highborne Night Elves, whereby some were changed by Sargeras into Saytr.

Dark Iron Dwarves and Void Elves are still Dwarves and Thalassian Elves.

Now, where I agree with you is that we can only RP a High Elf, as either a Blood Elf or Void Elf. My only Void Elf is a Void Elf Warrior, but I want to RP her as a High Elven Kirin'Tor Spellbreaker.

[elbleuet]

yes, as you can see, dark iron are changed/mutated, by the power of ragnaros, therefore, not the same race anymore, unlike the wildhammer, void elves are very akin to dark iron in this stance, but you want then to be akin to wildhammer, again with the same false equivalence in an attempt at gotcha.

Dark Iron dwarves did mutate ? Interesting news. Where's your source ? And what kind of mutation do you speak about ?

The official RPG provided by Blizzard only mentions some of them having their eyes glowing with red flames.

Blood elves endure the same thing with some of them getting golden eyes by being empowered by the Sunwell.

So where's your source ?

[Syegfryed]

Just like all your previous arguments to support your opposition to playable fair skinned, blue eyed Alliance High elves I suppose ?

They were not, and you were proved wrong by Blizzard.

i never had a problem with giving void elves white skin and blonde hair, as it is something i said they should do to end the problem(seems like it was not enough), my only problem was to add a third race of elves, so you are lying about my position.

Dark Iron dwarves did mutate ? Interesting news. Where's your source ? And what kind of mutation do you speak about ?

The official RPG provided by Blizzard only mentions some of them having their eyes glowing with red flames.

Blood elves endure the same thing with some of them getting golden eyes by being empowered by the Sunwell.

So where's your source ?

are you not seeing how their bead and hair are in flames, plus other several changes in their phisiology? this not just their eyes, they literally have the fireblood

The difference with all of this, is that when it comes to the Elves and Dwarves - it's more of a political difference.
Nobody has changed race. The only Elves that have ever changed from one race to a complete other are the Highborne Night Elves, loyal to Azshara who were changed to Naga.

you are partially right, what happens is both, political and race difference

the difference between a high and a blood elf is indeed mere politic, as blood elves are just high elves with another name, with dwarves, the wildhammer clan is the same kind of dwarf as the bronzebeard, there is no change in the race, like high/blood elves, it is just about their clan name.

But, A Dark iron is not the same as a bronzbeard/wildhammer as they are a new race of dwarf changed/mutated by the power of ragnaros, the same thing happens with void elves, as they are changed/mutated by the void.

We can draw more parallel with other races as well, a grimtotem tauren is the same kind of tauren as another tribe of mulgore, but the highmountain tauren are a different race of tauren changed/mutated by the bless of Cenarius. A warsong orc is the same orc as a frostwolf, but they are different from the maghar because they are changed/mutated by demon blood.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

And what are you not getting that the playable mechagnomes are the ones who used the "de-curse" ray? therefore, they having a significant distinction of normal gnomes that are not just replacing limbs? like, you don't play regular kul'tiran, you play the giant ones

No, they arent.

DID YOU READ THE COMIC?!?! Erazmin literally defected because his father wanted to use the de-curse ray to turn EVERYONE back to de-cursed and control them. We are literally AGAINST the use of the de-curse ray FFS.

How can you misread something SO HARD

All the arguments were solid, and were talk about over and over, you do not like then that is on you, but im not going to keep revisiting with this attempt at gaslight.

You can't even repeat your own argument, that's how weak it actually is. And shame on you for calling it "gaslighting", that's just low.

[Syegfryed]

No, they arent.

DID YOU READ THE COMIC?!?! Erazmin literally defected because his father wanted to use the de-curse ray to turn EVERYONE back to de-cursed and control them. We are literally AGAINST the use of the de-curse ray FFS.

How can you misread something SO HARD

He wanted turn everyone into full machines and they see they need to have a balance between man and machine, they still used the device, they just didn't become fully robots, they literally have organic light as someone with just a prosthetic limb you could not do, rofl, and im the one misreading?

You can't even repeat your own argument, that's how weak it actually is. And shame on you for calling it "gaslighting", that's just low.

im not going to repeat because it will be ignored and distort to fit your own narrative, i personally don't have time for circular logic anymore.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

He wanted turn everyone into full machines and they see they need to have a balance between man and machine, they still used the device, they just didn't become fully robots, they literally have organic light as someone with just a prosthetic limb you could not do, rofl, and im the one misreading?

YOU *clap emoji* DIDN'T *clap emoji* READ *clap emoji* THE *clap emoji* COMIC

The whole point of the comic is how they have being replacing their limbs and organs in a cyberpunk kinda way and only know Mechagon has created a ray that can remove the curse of flesh.

You keep bringing the "organic light" THAT'S ALSO A MODIFICATION THEY MADE TO THEMSELVES WITH TECHNOLOGY AHHHHH

im not going to repeat because it will be ignored and distort to fit your own narrative, i personally don't have time for circular logic anymore.

this a tricky one but most likely not yet, as an elf totally mutated by fel are red(the felblood elf), they would be floating in the half-elf/half-demon like illidan was once called since the power is pretty much from the "demon within". If the mutation/change is not totally, or can be reversed, isn't a new race yet, Like Gul'dan becoming a red hulk, maybe he would become a new race of fel orc, like the ones in outland, but there was not enough time, that is the grey area DH work.

Plus, if not convinced yet, is more or less a gameplay decision to balance things.

Brah. Your whole argument is based on the gameplay classification being prescriptive, you are literally bending everything to fit that, in spite of how illogical it is.

And even you finish with "is more or less a gameplay decision to balance things"

[Syegfryed]

YOU *clap emoji* DIDN'T *clap emoji* READ *clap emoji* THE *clap emoji* COMIC

The whole point of the comic is how they have being replacing their limbs and organs in a cyberpunk kinda way and only know Mechagon has created a ray that can remove the curse of flesh.

ah yes, the robot guy sure isn't lying, lets not forget that this is besides the point that you are nittpicking and my point is always how they and forsaken are big changes that make then no longer be what they were once before, you can't identify yourself as a forsaken, you have to die and be raised like one, you can't identify yourself as a mechagnome by mere being an engineer, you are literally ignoring the main point and fixating on this.

Brah. Your whole argument is based on the gameplay classification being prescriptive, you are literally bending everything to fit that, in spite of how illogical it is.

and you want to make then the same as void elves with a fallacy because they would support your narrative, like i said, it s pointless to discus over this

[Yarathir]

Don't forget to tell yourself that as well.

I will PM myself in a few hours to tell myself that.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

ah yes, the robot guy sure isn't lying, lets not forget that this is besides the point that you are nittpicking and my point is always how they and forsaken are big changes that make then no longer be what they were once before, you can't identify yourself as a forsaken, you have to die and be raised like one, you can't identify yourself as a mechagnome by mere being an engineer, you are literally ignoring the main point and fixating on this.

You really pulled the "well he's lying" JFC. You're hopeless.

And for the nth time you keep misrepresenting my point, that I have reinforced multiple times: "Biology alone does not a race make"

That's why it's so silly to define race in WoW solely by the biological component. If there is a valid conceptualization in WoW about race, it has to take into account both culture and society of the group. Biology alone does not a race make, nor is necessary according WoW itself. If Blood Elves and High Elves are the same race, so are Maghar and Orcs.

But sure, just keep misrepresenting my point as being solely about self ID.

and you want to make then the same as void elves with a fallacy because they would support your narrative, like i said, it s pointless to discus over this

No man, bringing up context is not a fallacy.

If you think that mechagnomes are a new race despite lacking the biological differentiation that DH illidari, who have it, then the logical conclusion is that, AGAIN, "Biology alone does not a race make", nor is a biological distinction NECESSARY to be considered a different "race"

[Syegfryed]

You really pulled the "well he's lying" JFC. You're hopeless.

"hopeless", says the guy who refuse to understand the elf situation, i just said he is lying about the gnome being the only one he used the machine when the lore of the race says otherwise.

And for the nth time you keep misrepresenting my point, that I have reinforced multiple times: "Biology alone does not a race make"

No, you are the only one "misrepresenting my point" i said multiple times that biology is one of the things that defines a race and cannot be ignored, but you are working with absolutes here, you either think is biology alone or not, or that biology is "irrelevant and pointless" when its a conjunct, the only three races already mentioned, that does not rely on biology alone had straight up changes that does not let then be what they once were before. Why your void elf is a pure high elf then, why they are the special ones that its not mentioned in the lore or in their description?

in short, no new race is the same race with "a political difference" or a "self identity"., all of the playable race undergo a fundamental change that does not let then be what they were, there is no "im pure" or "im that one race but i self identify as the other one", you changed, period, in the case of void elves, nightborne and other is a mutation to a new race/species.

No man, bringing up context is not a fallacy.

what you talking about? the quote you highlight is literally a fallacy of false equivalence, maghar and orcs are literal different races, as green rocs are mutated by demon blood, while blood elves just change their name, blood elves are not high elves mutated, period

[Ardenaso]

The former only. I doubt any High elf would return to Quel'Thalas. They left it in the first place because they wanted to remain pure, and not be twisted and mutated by Fel magic.

It could be a Blood elf who somehow never got mutated by Fel magic, and thus retains their blue eye. But how this is possibly, I do not know. Maybe they were away from Quel'Thalas in TBC.

it could also be a Dalarani/Argent Crusade non-Silver Covenant High Elf who wishes to go back to Silvermoon, or a former Silver Covenant member who denounces their order and wishes to pledge loyalty again to Silvermoon, or a former Allerian/Highvale member who wants to reconnect with their kin rather than... whatever they're planning in their life, or a Blood Elf whose fel effects on their eyes have completely worn off.

[FlubberPuddy]

Dark iron are a different race of dwarf, Do you think it is absurd two races or species having baby with another race? did you know Garona? who had orc and draenei parents? by your logic draenei and orcs are the same race

is a fail attempt at gotcha

Actually you just played yourself even more.

Garona is literally referred to as a half-Orc/half-Draenei

Humans and elf babies are denoted as half-elves.

Where is Moira’s baby called a half-dwarf?half-dark iron????

Bonkers logic at play.

But I guess you can only continue being nonsensical about something else since all the “they’ll never add high elves options to void elves because it don’t make sense” arguments fell through.

Your logic is like if parent A has blue eyes and blonde hair and fair skin and parent B is brown eyes black hair and brown skin - then if child is completely looks like parent A that’s due to a “different race” of parents.

[Varodoc]

it could also be a Dalarani/Argent Crusade non-Silver Covenant High Elf who wishes to go back to Silvermoon, or a former Silver Covenant member who denounces their order and wishes to pledge loyalty again to Silvermoon, or a former Allerian/Highvale member who wants to reconnect with their kin rather than... whatever they're planning in their life, or a Blood Elf whose fel effects on their eyes have completely worn off.

It reminds me of that dude from the new Star Wars movies that renounced the First Order and joined the rebels.

Sounds Mary Sue-ish, but then again RPers are infamous for writing Mary Sues (looking at all the people RPing a Bronze Blue Dragon hybrid who uses a half man half elf as mortal form).

You'd better come up with an extremely good reason for how that guy/girl escaped the Silver Covenant; as, from what we have seen, the Silver Covenant are willing to feed traitors to sharks and are extremely vigilant.

[Ardenaso]

You'd better come up with an extremely good reason for how that guy/girl escaped the Silver Covenant; as, from what we have seen, the Silver Covenant are willing to feed traitors to sharks and are extremely vigilant.

with Khadgar back on the lead I'd doubt he'd allow that; also, I'd wager someone could leave "guys I think this is wrong" and not be a traitor if their departure gets approved

but then again I forgot at this point every Silver Covenant member would have their names and faces plastered all over Murder Row as undesirables wanted dead so perhaps that's off

also, perhaps not all Quel'lithien died as Renthar, Kirkian, Adon, and Kriss are still alive - that's one more RP option, so basically:

Blood Elf who lost their fel radiation
former Allerian
former Highvale
former non-SC Dalarani
former Argent Crusader
former Quel'lithien

I'd wager 7th Legion High Elves would be seen as traitors too and are also wanted so that's two