1. #25281
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    This is one of those things that, if they made enough changes to get me playing again, would get me playing a Void Elf (as a High Elf) specifically. That said, I also dig the Void Elf aesthetic, I just think I like High Elves a little more.

  2. #25282
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Honestly, I think their existence serves as a basis for playable Void Elf (faction)-aligned genetic High Elves, and that any of the actually voidy Void Elves we see or play are all a result of the events of the introduction scenario.
    That's my issue about it. Like it implies that yes! both BE and HE's are studying with the VE's and Ethereals! which is nice!! but with like, zero actual explanation of how they would become Void Elves? Like I feel we should get some of that SOON.

    It all boils down to VE's needing more depth of lore and characterization, BfA basically did nothing for them as a race -we did get some Umbric- and I really hope we get to see how they have advanced as a race next expansion.

    I do feel the implication that there ARE new VE initiates coming from BE and HE is there, but I'd like for it to be stronger right now than them just attending a lecture. Like, if we saw the Wayfarers and Scholars using void abilities, such as Entropic Embrace and Spatial Rift, it would just be a neat bit of environmental storytelling.

    Having what we have since 2018 is just too little to have an working knowledge of how they function as a society. Contrast that to LFD, we know exactly how more are made, easy peacy.

  3. #25283
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    That's my issue about it. Like it implies that yes! both BE and HE's are studying with the VE's and Ethereals! which is nice!! but with like, zero actual explanation of how they would become Void Elves? Like I feel we should get some of that SOON.

    It all boils down to VE's needing more depth of lore and characterization, BfA basically did nothing for them as a race -we did get some Umbric- and I really hope we get to see how they have advanced as a race next expansion.

    I do feel the implication that there ARE new VE initiates coming from BE and HE is there, but I'd like for it to be stronger right now than them just attending a lecture. Like, if we saw the Wayfarers and Scholars using void abilities, such as Entropic Embrace and Spatial Rift, it would just be a neat bit of environmental storytelling.

    Having what we have since 2018 is just too little to have an working knowledge of how they function as a society. Contrast that to LFD, we know exactly how more are made, easy peacy.
    That's assuming they will ever genetically become Void Elves, tbh. Who says they will? Maybe they'll just continue being High and Blood Elves with void powers? Without being altered physically. Of course they couldn't let Alliance players play Blood Elves, but you get my point.

  4. #25284
    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    Adding or updating High Elf NPCs with the new Void Elf customizations would be welcome.

    Like the high elf sorceress, for example.
    I did a similar comparison!


  5. #25285
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    That's assuming they will ever genetically become Void Elves, tbh. Who says they will? Maybe they'll just continue being High and Blood Elves with void powers? Without being altered physically. Of course they couldn't let Alliance players play Blood Elves, but you get my point.
    That's the point to me where the definition of what a "Void Elf" is just very malleable. Like yes, the OG ones are blue, but *are* they another race? Are "Demon Hunters" another thalassian race? What IS the difference between a "Void Elf" and an Elf with Void powers? Isn't Alleria also a Void Elf while looking exactly like a High Elf still?

    I would say that from a "genetic" standpoint, the OG Void Elves are just Thalassian Elves that got affected by Void Energy on a manner just not dissimilar to Demon Hunters. They just aren't a "new race" and more of a self denominational nomenclature, being The Children of the Void being more of an identity issue, just as we see Alleria call herself.

    So can a High Elf or a Blood Elf become a "Void Elf" in terms of self identity? Yeah, of course.

    But can a High elf or Blood Elf become a "Void Elf" in the sense of replicating the level of void infusion that first botched ritual created? So far, we haven't seen that to be the case.

    And then, is there a marked biological difference between a Void Elf like Umbric and one like Alleria, or is just the void infusion expressing itself differently? Could a new "Void Elf" end up growing hair tentacles and blue skin if they study/interact the Void in a certain manner? I think so, any elf that gets affected by the void on a genetic level, regardless if it is a sudden change or a slow process, would be a "genetic" Void Elf, whether they look like Alleria or Umbric. The only thing that really changes is the phenotype expression.

    To me, the whole idea that "Void Elves" are a new "race" is inaccurate at its core, It's really just the same situation Demon Hunters are and they still see themselves as "Blood Elves". Because no matter how you gain that connection or infusion to the void, be it so like Alleria or Umbric's gang, the idea of being a "Void Elf" is entirely self-denominational.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I did a similar comparison!

    Gah, really wish we could swap one of the blondes for that brown XD
    Last edited by MyWholeLifeIsThunder; 2021-09-10 at 12:09 AM.

  6. #25286
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    That's the point to me where the definition of what a "Void Elf" is just very malleable. Like yes, the OG ones are blue, but *are* they another race? Are "Demon Hunters" another thalassian race?

    What IS the difference between a "Void Elf" and an Elf with Void powers? Isn't Alleria also a Void Elf while looking exactly like a High Elf still?

    I would say that from a "biological" standpoint, the OG Void Elves are just Thalassian Elves that got affected by Void Energy on a manner just not dissimilar to Demon Hunters. They just aren't a "new race" and more of a self denominational nomenclature, being The Children of the Void being more of an identity issue, just as we see Alleria call herself.

    So can a High Elf or a Blood Elf become a "Void Elf" in terms of self identity? Yeah, of course.

    But can a High elf or Blood Elf become a "Void Elf" in the sense of replicating the level of void infusion that first botched ritual created? So far, we haven't seen that to be the case.

    And then, is there a marked biological difference between a Void Elf like Umbric and one like Alleria, or is just the void infusion expressing itself differently? Could a new "Void Elf" end up growing hair tentacles and blue skin if they study/interact the Void in a certain manner?

    To me, the whole idea that "Void Elves" are a new "race" is inaccurate at its core, It's really just the same situation Demon Hunters are and they still see themselves as "Blood Elves". Because no matter how you gain that connection or infusion to the void, be it so like Alleria or Umbric's gang, the idea of being a "Void Elf" is entirely self-denominational.

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    Gah, really wish we could swap one of the blondes for that brown XD
    At some point, you really just have to accept that Warcraft Elves evolve/mutate into some new type/subspecies whenever they sneeze.

  7. #25287
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Gah, really wish we could swap one of the blondes for that brown XD
    I'm happy with what I have. I won't say no to more, but I don't feel any pressing need to ask for more. I'm content.

  8. #25288
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    At some point, you really just have to accept that Warcraft Elves evolve/mutate into some new type/subspecies whenever they sneeze.
    Exactly! So that's basically my point, I don't think they are another race in the sense of a new species, but more so "race" in the sense of self identification of a group -and of course, by gameplay mechanics, which is also a HUGE factor-

    Mechagnomes are literally the same race than gnomes, their differences are entirely cultural, yet they are a new Allied Race.

    Demon Hunters go through a ritual or process that is really equivalent to how you get LFD, yet they aren't a new AR, just a customization option.

    That's part of why I think in terms of lore and like just, organization, most AR's should just be customization options, because they really aren't new "races" on any meaningful way within the universe, and it would be better to just merge and share options within what "race" really is on a more root biological sense, and only mantain the distinction when it comes to that mix of cultural drift and gameplay mechanics that makes VE and BE different "races", while they are both ostensibly in the biological sense, two groups of Thalassian Elves (that did originate from a natural evolution) affected by different cosmic forces or magics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I'm happy with what I have. I won't say no to more, but I don't feel any pressing need to ask for more. I'm content.
    I feel the same way, like it would be better IMO, but it really is the sort of thing that's more of a personal nitpick :3

  9. #25289
    Now if only the forum would let me update my avatar... I have the image at the right size and tried jpg and png formats but it still keeps saying unable to save image. I even tried tossing it on imgur and linking it yet still no dice

  10. #25290
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Now if only the forum would let me update my avatar... I have the image at the right size and tried jpg and png formats but it still keeps saying unable to save image. I even tried tossing it on imgur and linking it yet still no dice
    Oh lol for real? That's weird. Haven't changed my avatar ever so IDK if this is a new thing or not.

  11. #25291
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Exactly! So that's basically my point, I don't think they are another race in the sense of a new species, but more so "race" in the sense of self identification of a group -and of course, by gameplay mechanics, which is also a HUGE factor-

    Mechagnomes are literally the same race than gnomes, their differences are entirely cultural, yet they are a new Allied Race.

    Demon Hunters go through a ritual or process that is really equivalent to how you get LFD, yet they aren't a new AR, just a customization option.

    That's part of why I think in terms of lore and like just, organization, most AR's should just be customization options, because they really aren't new "races" on any meaningful way within the universe, and it would be better to just merge and share options within what "race" really is on a more root biological sense, and only mantain the distinction when it comes to that mix of cultural drift and gameplay mechanics that makes VE and BE different "races", while they are both ostensibly in the biological sense, two groups of Thalassian Elves (that did originate from a natural evolution) affected by different cosmic forces or magics.

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    I feel the same way, like it would be better IMO, but it really is the sort of thing that's more of a personal nitpick :3
    Sorry, too late. I heard Blizzard is already working on a new race: Sneeze Elves (Choo'dorei)

  12. #25292
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Sorry, too late. I heard Blizzard is already working on a new race: Sneeze Elves (Choo'dorei)
    And we will spend over a year arguing if they should be blonde or not

  13. #25293
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    That's the point to me where the definition of what a "Void Elf" is just very malleable. Like yes, the OG ones are blue, but *are* they another race?
    yes, biologically another race/specie of elf, there was a stable mutation and changing in their bodies, pretty much like nightborne are not night elves, but another race of elf.

    Are "Demon Hunters" another thalassian race?
    this a tricky one but most likely not yet, as an elf totally mutated by fel are red(the felblood elf), they would be floating in the half-elf/half-demon like illidan was once called since the power is pretty much from the "demon within". If the mutation/change is not totally, or can be reversed, isn't a new race yet, Like Gul'dan becoming a red hulk, maybe he would become a new race of fel orc, like the ones in outland, but there was not enough time, that is the grey area DH work.

    Plus, if not convinced yet, is more or less a gameplay decision to balance things.

    I would say that from a "genetic" standpoint, the OG Void Elves are just Thalassian Elves that got affected by Void Energy on a manner just not dissimilar to Demon Hunters.
    the difference here is how DH still maintain their racials traits,meaning they still retain their biological/racial traces, while void elves, nightborne and others don't, therefore other race/specie.

    This may be something more like the worgen case, that they are no longer human, but not their own separate race/species yet because they can't reproduce as little worgens.

    But we will only know, for sure, when in the future void elves have children, as having an offspring the same as the parents is the kinda point of a new species/new race.
    So can a High Elf or a Blood Elf become a "Void Elf" in terms of self identity? Yeah, of course
    its like saying a human can become a "orc" in terms of self identity if he start using the elements like a shaman, "void elf" isn't a state of spirit like "nighbotne" is(like you were born at night, can you be a night elf nightborne? no.)

    To me, the whole idea that "Void Elves" are a new "race" is inaccurate at its core, It's really just the same situation Demon Hunters are and they still see themselves as "Blood Elves". Because no matter how you gain that connection or infusion to the void, be it so like Alleria or Umbric's gang, the idea of being a "Void Elf" is entirely self-denominational.
    How it is just self denomination if their core is totally changed/mutated? isn't like they just "hey im using this void now, im void elf," the mutation must occur, or else the powers and racials make no sense to exist, just because they look the same does not mean they are still the same, by example, there is a lot of species of animals that look the same, but are different species. It would make sense they look the same like alleria, as the exterior is just a shell of the void being in the interior.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Exactly! So that's basically my point, I don't think they are another race in the sense of a new species, but more so "race" in the sense of self identification of a group -and of course, by gameplay mechanics, which is also a HUGE factor-
    but they are, thats the point of elves evolving every time they sneeze. since trolls a lot of "evolution" happened.
    Mechagnomes are literally the same race than gnomes, their differences are entirely cultural, yet they are a new Allied Race.
    their difference is the mechanical parts, making then no longer "just gnomes", pretty much a parallel of forsaken, that are not "just humans".

    One thing they "did right" in the allied races is how they were not the same race anymore, be from evolution/mutation/magic/tecnology. Except vulpera as they make no sense all together for the allied race system.

  14. #25294

  15. #25295
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    SNIP
    Ahhh. I can always trust you to have the worst takes.

    the difference here is how DH still maintain their racials traits,meaning they still retain their biological/racial traces, while void elves, nightborne and others don't, therefore other race/specie.
    Can't even try to explain how ridiculous using the existence of racials -which are a gameplay thing- as prescriptive of what a race should be "in universe" is

    its like saying a human can become a "orc" in terms of self identity if he start using the elements like a shaman, "void elf" isn't a state of spirit like "nighbotne" is(like you were born at night, can you be a night elf nightborne? no.)
    Completely dismisses the actual Alleria example. The point is what is the point if void infusion that would make you a "Void Elf" in the genetic sense is unrelated to the appearance, and whether that matches to when an elf would self denominate as a "Void Elf" or see themselves as just an Elf that uses void is malleable.

    The whole point is that any genetic litmus test for what any type of elf is is moot; the species is "elf", the term "race" at best serves as a descriptor of cultural, biological and sociological elements of a group; it's not even comparable to what we call ethnicity in real life because these elves go from one "race" to another.

    their difference is the mechanical parts, making then no longer "just gnomes", pretty much a parallel of forsaken, that are not "just humans".
    The comparison between prosthetics making you another race and being undead -which also doesn't makes you a new race, it's a curse- It's just as baffling.

    The concept of race in WoW makes son sense beyond gameplay classification in most cases, and to try to see it as prescriptive of the lore when it contradicts other already established lore is utterly fraught.

    Trying to reconcile "race" in WoW as a merely biological distinction, is dumb. It either accounts for sociocultural identity (like it does for mechagnomes) or it just doesn't make any sense.

  16. #25296
    Quote Originally Posted by lowdps1 View Post
    we need high elves !!
    I don't know about you, but I'll have my high elves (and half elves) in 9.1.5


  17. #25297
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Ahhh. I can always trust you to have the worst takes.
    you mean the right ones that you refuse to accept? i guess.

    Can't even try to explain how ridiculous using the existence of racials -which are a gameplay thing- as prescriptive of what a race should be "in universe" is
    you think one of the basis of the game race is ridiculous? i guess its the whole point "that just goes against my headcnaon and view therefore i demn ridicule and ignore for my own bennefit"

    racials are not just a "gameplay thing" most of the racials are traits of the races can do based on either their biology/psiology, and you are sayign they are ridicule because they go against of your personal premise "asserting identity'', which is sorry, the only t ridicule thing here.

    Completely dismisses the actual Alleria example. The point is what is the point if void infusion that would make you a "Void Elf" in the genetic sense is unrelated to the appearance, and whether that matches to when an elf would self denominate as a "Void Elf" or see themselves as just an Elf that uses void is malleable.
    ?? iliterally used her an example of how someone can change/mutate and still look the same in the outside, but still be a being made of void in the inside.

    she is not just a "elf that uses the void" she was forever changed and mutted by the void too, she just can control betrer
    The whole point is that any genetic litmus test for what any type of elf is is moot; the species is "elf", the term "race" at best serves as a descriptor of cultural, biological and sociological elements of a group; it's not even comparable to what we call ethnicity in real life because these elves go from one "race" to another.
    Not isn't, its pretty easy to do, a nightborne isn't a night elf born in the night, a night elf isn't a troll without tusks, a void elf isn't an elf just using void.

    "elf" would be more of a genus including elven species inside, we have the genus elf with the species of night elf, nightborne, high/blood elf and void elf.

    The comparison between prosthetics making you another race and being undead -which also doesn't makes you a new race, it's a curse- It's just as baffling.
    they are other races, and they make you another race in wow terms, they are not another species but they are a different beings, just like with worgens, they are no longer what they previous were, they are changed, and thats th point of having "another race" in this matter.

    A normal gnome cannot "identify himself" as a mechagnome because he is a tinker or he is a engineer doing a lot of mechanical things, for him to be a mechagnome he need to have his parts changed to mechanical ones with their machine, thus, making then no longer what they were.

    A human cannot "identify himself" as a forsaken or a worgen, you have to die and be raised as undead first or get the worgen curse., same way an "elf" cannot identify as a "void elf" because he is using void magic, he have to be mutated by the void as well.

    Trying to reconcile "race" in WoW as a merely biological distinction, is dumb. It either accounts for sociocultural identity (like it does for mechagnomes) or it just doesn't make any sense.
    there is no race that is based around "sociocultural identity", that is just absurd, all races are either based on biological difference, from a human to a dwarf, a blood elf to a night elf, straight up a biological distinction, or a big magical that still change their beings like one way or another like a undead or worgen curse.

    With the case of elves, is pure biological sparked by magicl, night elves evolved into nag, satyr, nightborne and high/blood elves, high/blood elves evolved into felblood elves or void elves. and there still the wretched and the ther ones.

    I see that you are trying to validate something with "void elf is just like mechagnomes bro, any elf can use the void like a amge and identify as void elf", but thats straight up going against the canon and logic of how void elves are only void elves after being changed/mutated by the void.

  18. #25298
    So having their bodies being biologically changed by the Fel doesn't make DH a different race. But having blood/high elves biologically changed by the Void does make them another race.
    Meanwhile Mechagnones having limbs cut off made them a different race. Yet human undead who are forsaken are another race, but human death knights aren't. Kul Tiran are another race, despite not being another race...

    I think going by the game categorization of what a race is ends up not only in conflicting statements but plain ridiculous.

    If anything the allied races should have been called sub factions instead which then may or may not consist primarily of one race or another. Allied races can't be used as an argument on what a race is.

  19. #25299
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpcat View Post
    So having their bodies being biologically changed by the Fel doesn't make DH a different race. But having blood/high elves biologically changed by the Void does make them another race.
    Like i said, if you even care to read, the DH were not completely changed, and they are in a state of half-demon half-elf, like it was implied with illidan before, as their retain their racials, and, they could in theory revert back if they were stripped from their powers and the demon within. This or they are, indeed another race, but stay as the same one for the purposes of gameplay, not lore.

    Meanwhile Mechagnones having limbs cut off made them a different race. Yet human undead who are forsaken are another race, but human death knights aren't. Kul Tiran are another race, despite not being another race...
    - Pretty sure the machine don't just "cut your limbs" and they put a prosthetic limb, they turn your body part to metal, basically reverting back the curse of flesh
    - The DK revival isn't like the undead ones, and the humand dks are not rooting or ind ecay liek the forsaken, some can even pass up as living humans

    The point is to show how every race still is different, someway somehow, either by biology(the elf case) or by some fantastical or absurd change(human/worgen/undead case), they are different, and not the same and its not based around "social identity". The point with DK human is pretty good as not even by dying and getting resurected alone is enough to be a forsaken, so why an elf playing with void would be enough to make then "void elf as social identity?" its absurd

    Kul'trians, - the playable ones - are also straight up, another breed of humans as normal humans can't get to 8ft tall by merely "stating they are kul'tiran"
    I think going by the game categorization of what a race is ends up not only in conflicting statements but plain ridiculous.
    Not rly, only if you blatantly ignore what we have to base on, the only races who are "another race" but not another species, are forsaken, worgen and mechagnomes, but thy were sitll significant changed from their past selves by huge alterations, not just "im plying with machines now".

    If anything the allied races should have been called sub factions instead which then may or may not consist primarily of one race or another. Allied races can't be used as an argument on what a race is.
    i don't disagree with the first part but the second part is going against the devs who said allied races are different races, period, people liking or not is the canon, and it does make sense.

  20. #25300
    Brewmaster elbleuet's Avatar
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    So a blood elf demon hunter is still a blood elf but a high elf with void powers isn't a high elf.

    Accept it anti helfers You lost, as high elves are playable on both sides
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

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