1. #25421
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The former only. I doubt any High elf would return to Quel'Thalas. They left it in the first place because they wanted to remain pure, and not be twisted and mutated by Fel magic.
    Only fools think that blood elves are mutated by fel magic.

    Clearly don't know the core lore for the main Thalassian race.

  2. #25422
    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    This is true. "Race" is a social construct arbitrarily assigned by human minds. There is no physical reality behind it. This is because any physical differences between population groups gradually change across a gradient, and there are no hard and set boundaries with neat little boxes that separate demes. Clinal distribution is an accurate representation of populations and genetic differences, not "race." In fact, you can take a person from one country in Europe, profile their DNA, and they can be much closer related to someone from Africa than a neighboring European country.

    Humans experienced a genetic bottleneck around 50,000 to 60,000 years ago that reduced genetic variability when compared to other animal species: most likely a pandemic that left only a few hundred human beings alive. This means we are all very closely related genetically, like one big extended family. And much like having siblings with different eye colors, hair colors, or blood types, we can look different even though we are very similar to each other in terms of genes.

    Ethnicity is real, however, because ethnicity explicitly understands that it is a social construct from the outset. Ethnicity doesn't suggest a difference in species, like "race" does, as it is merely a description of an isolated cultural group. Culture is something we can discuss scientifically, whereas "race" was something invented to justify attitudes of "superiority" and colonial oppression of the Other. Exploitation is profitable, and a whole category of pseudoscience ("race") was invented to prop it up to keep the money train rolling along.

    "There are no races, there are only clines." -Frank Livingston

    (P.S. My bachelor's degree is in anthropology, so I know what I'm talking about.)
    That's why it's so silly to define race in WoW solely by the biological component. If there is a valid conceptualization in WoW about race, it has to take into account both culture and society of the group. Biology alone does not a race make, nor is necessary according WoW itself. If Blood Elves and High Elves are the same race, so are Maghar and Orcs.

    I do think most of the WoW "races" would fit more with the concept of ethnicity, but I would think that wouldn't apply to "races" that are afflicted by curses/cosmic forces, as you can't really change your ethnic group.

    That's why "race" is a weird term in WoW, and really only makes sense as a more complex grouping that not only accounts for biology, but also society and culture.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    he thinks race is about what magic is inside of you, and that Thalassian races aren't just an ethnicity of elf that is split up between cultures... It's sort of like how There are many human ethnicities, lets say Thalassians are Europeans. You're going to have a hard time telling an englishman from a german because the difference does not matter, what makes them different is culture, and an ethnic anglo raised in Germany, or tries really hard to adopt German customs, is a German. It's the same with elves, only much less complicated because high/blood/void are just schools of thought, and can reasonably be switched between with little trouble with you likely wouldn't find protest in the Warcraft Universe.

    Some people might turn their heads at a purple skinned, tentacle-faced void elf calling himself a high elf, but for the rest of them it's not a huge deal. Blood Elves look to Silvermoon for guidance and believe in building back the motherland and discarding traditions and becoming what they must to survive. High Elves believe in holding to previous convictions, old allegiances and believe in preserving what they were. Void Elves fall more in line with the former, only they do not strive for nationhood, but enlightenment.

    It's way more interesting than 'durr you put void energy in body u no longer blood elf '. He'd call Demon Hunters a race too if they were simply called "Fel'dorei" or something, but they never gave themselves a name, so they are still blood elves and night elves I guess? :copium:


    Viewing the lore from a gameplay perspective is so boring, instead of looking at the merit of what is designed through the lens of a world first.
    For me the issue is taking the gameplay distinctions as the sole prescriptive notion without considering the obvious existence of lore and gameplay segregation in a game. If everything that we see during gameplay is "lore" then the world really just doesn't make sense, you have to use at least a iota of critical thinking to see the overall context so you don't end up believing stuff that contradicts each other.

    Saying Illidari wouldn't count as a race because they are a "class" is just putting a gameplay classification in a place where it does not make sense. Logically, Illidari are as distinct from thalassians as VE's are, they are utterly infused with a magical energy, yet the gameplay treats them as different things. So it's either that Illidari should be considered another race and gameplay=/=Lore, or biology alone does not make a race and if they still consider themselves Blood Elves no one is going to tell them "akshually you're a Fel Elf okay?"

  3. #25423
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Saying Illidari wouldn't count as a race because they are a "class" is just putting a gameplay classification in a place where it does not make sense. Logically, Illidari are as distinct from thalassians as VE's are, they are utterly infused with a magical energy, yet the gameplay treats them as different things. So it's either that Illidari should be considered another race and gameplay=/=Lore, or biology alone does not make a race and if they still consider themselves Blood Elves no one is going to tell them "akshually you're a Fel Elf okay?"
    Illidari is a faction, not a race.

    I mean we've got the Illidari Demon Hunters, but also the old Illidari Elite Blood Elven fighting force, just beyond the Den of Mortal Delights.

  4. #25424
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Except i never said anything about personal immersion, you are attacking a point that i never made, i was talking about lore and the canon origins, while you stating the canon is wrong and to be a elf is a mere "self identity thing" when its not.

    I said, countless of times, that people can RP whatever they want, but there is a distinction between canon and headcanon, but aparently some people are not honest enough to take that into account and will distort everything being said..
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You can also separete lore from your immersion as it seems, because this literally goes against the lore, as you do not play a high elf, but a void elf with the appearence of a high elf, this si the lore, and this is what i pointed out.

    Again, no problem in RP that and create that backstory, the problem is when you think that is the reality and start creating nonsense arguments like "a race is another race by mere identifying themselves as it".
    All I know is that you contradict yourself. You call me out for separating lore from my immersion, in the same breath you say "I don't have a problem with the RP you have"

    And honestly? It really seems all of this stems of you misinterpreting my arguments. You care conflating my criticism of the concept of race in WoW as MY MOTIVE, when my personal immersion is separate from that belief, since my High Elves are just high elves with no void whatsoever, I'm not pretzeling in any logic to make my void elves into high elves, and it kinda baffles me how you mixed up the two concepts on the first place.

    And all of this, because you are fixated on the idea that elves have to become mutated enough to use spatial rift lmao.

  5. #25425
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    13,862
    Quote Originally Posted by Geisl View Post
    This. Anyone mention to @Syegfryed yet that by his logic Dark Irons are a different race than Dwarves yet Moira had no issues birthing a Dark Iron Dwarf baby with 'another race'
    Dark iron are a different race of dwarf, Do you think it is absurd two races or species having baby with another race? did you know Garona? who had orc and draenei parents? by your logic draenei and orcs are the same race

    is a fail attempt at gotcha

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Wonder how will age when/if we get new VE initiates made of High Elves then lol.
    i don't see a problem of new VE being mutated from HE of other orgs.

    Okay so you basically didn't read the comic I literally linked to you. Come on, make an effort.

    THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT HAPPENS IN THE COMIC AFTER ERAZMIN LEAVES, AND WE SEE IT BEING USED FOR THE FIRST TIME. THAT'S WHAT KING MECHAGON HAD BEEN WORKING ON AN TESTED ON THE GNOME EXPLORER.
    yes, this is what i said...? the mechagnomes are the ones who mechanize themselves turning back the curse of flesh, isn't just prosthetic.

    And that's why any critique you make is entirely surface. It's like you are unable to see the inconsistencies of treating Illidari as merely "another class" and completely dismiss how the lore itself might not be a one to one reflection of gameplay categorization.
    Still cherrypicking the DH after being constantly revised is the most pure form of Undistributed Middle fallacy as you see two things sharing a property, and think that makes them the same thing, this fallacy was being used over and over here when yout ry to make then also the same as dwarves and other allied races(but of course not the ones they are more close to) whille prompt ignoring the rest because implies something you don't want

    Lol and you say that when I literally replied this before? You gave up on actually reading what one is actually writing a long time ago lmao.
    pot meets kettle
    You dismiss what doesn't fit your argument (Illidari) and misread and misrepresent the lore (mechagnomes)
    Nope i didn't dismiss, you in contrast try to say they are the same thing, ignoring the differences and i still don't know where you get the "misread and misrepresent" mechagnomes lore as it is in their own official page

    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    he thinks race is about what magic is inside of you
    Nope, i didn't, thats shows you either didn't read what i said or straight up ignored and are still going for the headcanon thinking is true.
    . It's the same with elves, only much less complicated because high/blood/void are just schools of thought, and can reasonably be switched between with little trouble with you likely wouldn't find protest in the Warcraft Universe.
    No isn't, that is a straight up made up thing that its not truth with the warcraft universe/lore. gonna ignore the rest because is just a weak attempt at appeal to ridicule fallacy while lying about what i said.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    All I know is that you contradict yourself. You call me out for separating lore from my immersion, in the same breath you say "I don't have a problem with the RP you have"
    This isn't a call out, you said you separate gameplay from immersion, but you also separate from lore to create a backstory that is not the canon one, as void elves are a new race of elves not just elves playing void magic. If you want to TP that is one thing, like i said, my problem is when people start to think that is true.
    And honestly? It really seems all of this stems of you misinterpreting my arguments. You care conflating my criticism of the concept of race in WoW as MY MOTIVE, when my personal immersion is separate from that belief, since my High Elves are just high elves with no void whatsoever, I'm not pretzeling in any logic to make my void elves into high elves, and it kinda baffles me how you mixed up the two concepts on the first place.

    And all of this, because you are fixated on the idea that elves have to become mutated enough to use spatial rift lmao.
    in this same quote you are contradicting yourself, you are saying you don't want any logic to make void elves into high elves but then say they don't need to mutate to be a void elf
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-09-11 at 09:39 PM.

  6. #25426
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Illidari is a faction, not a race.

    I mean we've got the Illidari Demon Hunters, but also the old Illidari Elite Blood Elven fighting force, just beyond the Den of Mortal Delights.
    In case I wasn't clear, I'm referring to the Illidari that have become suffused with fel energy and gown wings, horns and fel spots.

    As I literally said in the post you quoted: "biology alone does not make a race"

    Logically, Illidari are as distinct from thalassians as VE's are

    But we don't treat them as a different race, because:

    Biology alone does not make a race

  7. #25427
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    In case I wasn't clear, I'm referring to the Illidari that have become suffused with fel energy and gown wings, horns and fel spots.

    As I literally said in the post you quoted: "biology alone does not make a race"

    Logically, Illidari are as distinct from thalassians as VE's are

    But we don't treat them as a different race, because:

    Biology alone does not make a race
    But it's wrong to even assume that the "Illidari" is any kind of race, because it never was. It's a faction. Currently, the faction is:
    Blood Elves
    Night Elves
    Naga
    Shivarra
    Broken Draenei

    You and I agree on the same thing.

  8. #25428
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    SNIP
    -FFS, Mechagnomes didn't try to use the "De-Curse" ray until recently, up until then they literally just replaced their parts with technology. Up until them their method of "reversing the curse of flesh" was literally just replacing body parts, how are you not getting this??

    -You have yet to give a solid argument about HOW Demon Hunters are unlike VE's and LFD beyond the gameplay treating them as a class. Lmao they are not just "sharing a property", they share an entire checklist with VE and LFD EXCEPT for gameplay classification.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    But it's wrong to even assume that the "Illidari" is any kind of race, because it never was. It's a faction. Currently, the faction is:
    Blood Elves
    Night Elves
    Naga
    Shivarra
    Broken Draenei

    You and I agree on the same thing.
    Again, I was using the term "illidari" to refer to the subsection of elven demon hunters. It's the same issue of referring to "high elves" as a race, or "high elf" as the current modern group. The whole point is that naming is considerably an issue of self identification than merely a biological litmus test.

  9. #25429
    Bloodsail Admiral elbleuet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Quel'Danil Lodge
    Posts
    1,208
    So Dark Iron dwarves are another race of dwarves but Wildhammer dwarves are just Bronzebeard dwarves with war paints according to @Syegfryed.

    Someone tells him these are just clans of a same race that used to live together in Ironforge under the same king until recently ?
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  10. #25430
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    13,862
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    -FFS, Mechagnomes didn't try to use the "De-Curse" ray until recently, up until then they literally just replaced their parts with technology. Up until them their method of "reversing the curse of flesh" was literally just replacing body parts, how are you not getting this??
    And what are you not getting that the playable mechagnomes are the ones who used the "de-curse" ray? therefore, they having a significant distinction of normal gnomes that are not just replacing limbs? like, you don't play regular kul'tiran, you play the giant ones
    -You have yet to give a solid argument about HOW Demon Hunters are unlike VE's and LFD beyond the gameplay treating them as a class. Lmao they are not just "sharing a property", they share an entire checklist with VE and LFD EXCEPT for gameplay classification.
    All the arguments were solid, and were talk about over and over, you do not like then that is on you, but im not going to keep revisiting with this attempt at gaslight.

    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    So Dark Iron dwarves are another race of dwarves but Wildhammer dwarves are just Bronzebeard dwarves with war paints according to @Syegfryed.

    Someone tells him these are just clans of a same race that used to live together in Ironforge under the same king until recently ?
    yes, as you can see, dark iron are changed/mutated, by the power of ragnaros, therefore, not the same race anymore, unlike the wildhammer, void elves are very akin to dark iron in this stance, but you want then to be akin to wildhammer, again with the same false equivalence in an attempt at gotcha.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-09-11 at 09:48 PM.

  11. #25431
    Bloodsail Admiral elbleuet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Quel'Danil Lodge
    Posts
    1,208
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post

    All the arguments were solid
    Just like all your previous arguments to support your opposition to playable fair skinned, blue eyed Alliance High elves I suppose ?

    They were not, and you were proved wrong by Blizzard.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  12. #25432
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    yes, as you can see, dark iron are changed/mutated, by the power of ragnaros, therefore, not the same race anymore, unlike the wildhammer, void elves are very akin to dark iron in this stance, but you want then to be akin to wildhammer, again with the same false equivalence in an attempt at gotcha.
    The difference with all of this, is that when it comes to the Elves and Dwarves - it's more of a political difference.

    Nobody has changed race. The only Elves that have ever changed from one race to a complete other are the Highborne Night Elves, loyal to Azshara who were changed to Naga.
    We've also got the same Highborne Night Elves, whereby some were changed by Sargeras into Saytr.

    Dark Iron Dwarves and Void Elves are still Dwarves and Thalassian Elves.

    Now, where I agree with you is that we can only RP a High Elf, as either a Blood Elf or Void Elf. My only Void Elf is a Void Elf Warrior, but I want to RP her as a High Elven Kirin'Tor Spellbreaker.

  13. #25433
    Bloodsail Admiral elbleuet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Quel'Danil Lodge
    Posts
    1,208
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post

    yes, as you can see, dark iron are changed/mutated, by the power of ragnaros, therefore, not the same race anymore, unlike the wildhammer, void elves are very akin to dark iron in this stance, but you want then to be akin to wildhammer, again with the same false equivalence in an attempt at gotcha.
    Dark Iron dwarves did mutate ? Interesting news. Where's your source ? And what kind of mutation do you speak about ?

    The official RPG provided by Blizzard only mentions some of them having their eyes glowing with red flames.

    Blood elves endure the same thing with some of them getting golden eyes by being empowered by the Sunwell.

    So where's your source ?
    Last edited by elbleuet; 2021-09-11 at 10:02 PM.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  14. #25434
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    13,862
    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Just like all your previous arguments to support your opposition to playable fair skinned, blue eyed Alliance High elves I suppose ?

    They were not, and you were proved wrong by Blizzard.
    i never had a problem with giving void elves white skin and blonde hair, as it is something i said they should do to end the problem(seems like it was not enough), my only problem was to add a third race of elves, so you are lying about my position.

    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Dark Iron dwarves did mutate ? Interesting news. Where's your source ? And what kind of mutation do you speak about ?

    The official RPG provided by Blizzard only mentions some of them having their eyes glowing with red flames.

    Blood elves endure the same thing with some of them getting golden eyes by being empowered by the Sunwell.

    So where's your source ?
    are you not seeing how their bead and hair are in flames, plus other several changes in their phisiology? this not just their eyes, they literally have the fireblood

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    The difference with all of this, is that when it comes to the Elves and Dwarves - it's more of a political difference.
    Nobody has changed race. The only Elves that have ever changed from one race to a complete other are the Highborne Night Elves, loyal to Azshara who were changed to Naga.
    you are partially right, what happens is both, political and race difference

    the difference between a high and a blood elf is indeed mere politic, as blood elves are just high elves with another name, with dwarves, the wildhammer clan is the same kind of dwarf as the bronzebeard, there is no change in the race, like high/blood elves, it is just about their clan name.

    But, A Dark iron is not the same as a bronzbeard/wildhammer as they are a new race of dwarf changed/mutated by the power of ragnaros, the same thing happens with void elves, as they are changed/mutated by the void.

    We can draw more parallel with other races as well, a grimtotem tauren is the same kind of tauren as another tribe of mulgore, but the highmountain tauren are a different race of tauren changed/mutated by the bless of Cenarius. A warsong orc is the same orc as a frostwolf, but they are different from the maghar because they are changed/mutated by demon blood.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-09-11 at 10:08 PM.

  15. #25435
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    And what are you not getting that the playable mechagnomes are the ones who used the "de-curse" ray? therefore, they having a significant distinction of normal gnomes that are not just replacing limbs? like, you don't play regular kul'tiran, you play the giant ones
    No, they arent.

    DID YOU READ THE COMIC?!?! Erazmin literally defected because his father wanted to use the de-curse ray to turn EVERYONE back to de-cursed and control them. We are literally AGAINST the use of the de-curse ray FFS.

    How can you misread something SO HARD


    All the arguments were solid, and were talk about over and over, you do not like then that is on you, but im not going to keep revisiting with this attempt at gaslight.
    You can't even repeat your own argument, that's how weak it actually is. And shame on you for calling it "gaslighting", that's just low.

  16. #25436
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    13,862
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    No, they arent.

    DID YOU READ THE COMIC?!?! Erazmin literally defected because his father wanted to use the de-curse ray to turn EVERYONE back to de-cursed and control them. We are literally AGAINST the use of the de-curse ray FFS.

    How can you misread something SO HARD
    He wanted turn everyone into full machines and they see they need to have a balance between man and machine, they still used the device, they just didn't become fully robots, they literally have organic light as someone with just a prosthetic limb you could not do, rofl, and im the one misreading?

    You can't even repeat your own argument, that's how weak it actually is. And shame on you for calling it "gaslighting", that's just low.
    im not going to repeat because it will be ignored and distort to fit your own narrative, i personally don't have time for circular logic anymore.

  17. #25437
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    He wanted turn everyone into full machines and they see they need to have a balance between man and machine, they still used the device, they just didn't become fully robots, they literally have organic light as someone with just a prosthetic limb you could not do, rofl, and im the one misreading?


    YOU *clap emoji* DIDN'T *clap emoji* READ *clap emoji* THE *clap emoji* COMIC

    The whole point of the comic is how they have being replacing their limbs and organs in a cyberpunk kinda way and only know Mechagon has created a ray that can remove the curse of flesh.

    You keep bringing the "organic light" THAT'S ALSO A MODIFICATION THEY MADE TO THEMSELVES WITH TECHNOLOGY AHHHHH

    im not going to repeat because it will be ignored and distort to fit your own narrative, i personally don't have time for circular logic anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    this a tricky one but most likely not yet, as an elf totally mutated by fel are red(the felblood elf), they would be floating in the half-elf/half-demon like illidan was once called since the power is pretty much from the "demon within". If the mutation/change is not totally, or can be reversed, isn't a new race yet, Like Gul'dan becoming a red hulk, maybe he would become a new race of fel orc, like the ones in outland, but there was not enough time, that is the grey area DH work.

    Plus, if not convinced yet, is more or less a gameplay decision to balance things.
    Brah. Your whole argument is based on the gameplay classification being prescriptive, you are literally bending everything to fit that, in spite of how illogical it is.

    And even you finish with "is more or less a gameplay decision to balance things"

  18. #25438
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    13,862
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    YOU *clap emoji* DIDN'T *clap emoji* READ *clap emoji* THE *clap emoji* COMIC

    The whole point of the comic is how they have being replacing their limbs and organs in a cyberpunk kinda way and only know Mechagon has created a ray that can remove the curse of flesh.
    ah yes, the robot guy sure isn't lying, lets not forget that this is besides the point that you are nittpicking and my point is always how they and forsaken are big changes that make then no longer be what they were once before, you can't identify yourself as a forsaken, you have to die and be raised like one, you can't identify yourself as a mechagnome by mere being an engineer, you are literally ignoring the main point and fixating on this.

    Brah. Your whole argument is based on the gameplay classification being prescriptive, you are literally bending everything to fit that, in spite of how illogical it is.
    and you want to make then the same as void elves with a fallacy because they would support your narrative, like i said, it s pointless to discus over this

  19. #25439
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Don't forget to tell yourself that as well.
    I will PM myself in a few hours to tell myself that.

  20. #25440
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    ah yes, the robot guy sure isn't lying, lets not forget that this is besides the point that you are nittpicking and my point is always how they and forsaken are big changes that make then no longer be what they were once before, you can't identify yourself as a forsaken, you have to die and be raised like one, you can't identify yourself as a mechagnome by mere being an engineer, you are literally ignoring the main point and fixating on this.
    You really pulled the "well he's lying" JFC. You're hopeless.

    And for the nth time you keep misrepresenting my point, that I have reinforced multiple times: "Biology alone does not a race make"

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    That's why it's so silly to define race in WoW solely by the biological component. If there is a valid conceptualization in WoW about race, it has to take into account both culture and society of the group. Biology alone does not a race make, nor is necessary according WoW itself. If Blood Elves and High Elves are the same race, so are Maghar and Orcs.
    But sure, just keep misrepresenting my point as being solely about self ID.

    and you want to make then the same as void elves with a fallacy because they would support your narrative, like i said, it s pointless to discus over this
    No man, bringing up context is not a fallacy.

    If you think that mechagnomes are a new race despite lacking the biological differentiation that DH illidari, who have it, then the logical conclusion is that, AGAIN, "Biology alone does not a race make", nor is a biological distinction NECESSARY to be considered a different "race"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •