1. #25521
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Blood Elves stopped being Alliance after the 2nd War.
    It clearly states that Anasterian did not feel that the Alliance had his people's interests at heart and then we had Garithos afterwards.

    The Blood Elves and Lor'themar especially, had a clear link with Sylvanas, which in turn, brought them closer to the Horde. Kael'thas was aware of this allegiance and he pushed for it through Rommath.
    Lor'themar had no links to the Alliance, so joining the Horde was (and still remains) the better option.

    If they were alliance, they'd be enveloped into "Human Potential" and we see how well that works for the Night Elves. It's part of the reason why I am such a Blood Elf fan - they would have 0 charm being Alliance. So bland and boring and just LOTR - I mean, if you want to play a race, that is allied to Humans and looks like Blood Elves (without the void stuff), play LOTRO.

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    Well, it's not about letting the elf haters get to me, it's all about what's fair. I mean, elves have 4 playable races at the moment. We're not exactly bleeding for options.

    And, I remember how I felt when I saw WoD for the first time:
    "Great...more Orcs!"
    I don't want that same feeling to happen, about Elves. Yes, Elves will take a big stage in WoW because they are a large species, but just like Orcs in 2014, you can have far too much of a good thing.

    I'd love more Blood Elf options, but I'm a realist and the fact is, we aren't starved for options. We can play as 4 different elves and RP 5 different elves. Sometimes, we have to take a step back and let the other races have their time. I mean, we're all still waiting for the Draenei and Darkspear Heritage armors.

    Maybe San'layn/Dark Ranger options come available in 11.0 or something? Maybe "Rommath/Magister" tattoos come then as well?
    Nah, we are talking about more elves, not more of other races. Presumably more elves means more other sub races.

    but night elf worgen are worgen, why should humans be favoured as the humanoid version of those worgens givign them yet another race? why can't it be night elves who only have 1 allied race, even though elves have 2.

    We want more elves, but that's not to say we want them without other races.

    Your WoD scenario is when Blizzard just focused on orcs.. , no other races.

    If we get naga, you can't avoid elves, they are an elf based race, whether as n allied race or full race. And an elf for them would be cool. Optional transofmation means if you hate elves you can just stay in serpent form, if you love elves you have a choice. Haters would say, give us serpent form and remove elf mode totally, the reason they say that even though they have a choice to be in serpent form all the times, is because they hate elves, and don't like you playing them.. so whether blizzard gave no elf improvements, they'd complain..because you play it, and theys ee many elves around.

    The elven subraces have not increased the elf fans or elven popularity, what's happened is that the elf players have used other elf options. mostly. I think only human n umbers suffered from void elves really, but then humans are still very poppular.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  2. #25522
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    That's why it's so silly to define race in WoW solely by the biological component. If there is a valid conceptualization in WoW about race, it has to take into account both culture and society of the group. Biology alone does not a race make, nor is necessary according WoW itself. If Blood Elves and High Elves are the same race, so are Maghar and Orcs.

    I do think most of the WoW "races" would fit more with the concept of ethnicity, but I would think that wouldn't apply to "races" that are afflicted by curses/cosmic forces, as you can't really change your ethnic group.

    That's why "race" is a weird term in WoW, and really only makes sense as a more complex grouping that not only accounts for biology, but also society and culture.
    Indeed. I wish they would use the term species for groups that share underlying biology and culture or ethnicity for artistic/linguistic variations on a species, like Wildhammer dwarves could be of the species dwarf but the culture Wildhammer. There could also be a tab to select an ethnicity on the character creation screen, where the customization options are bundled by cultural group.

  3. #25523
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Again, I'm not arguing against blood elves joining the Horde. I'm actually fine with blood elves joining the Horde and staying there until the end of WotLK. My point was about them not actually having enough motivations to stay afterwards, because the Horde only drags them to conflicts unrelated to them, costing them resources and lives of their people, leaving them unable to fully defend their homeland when Amani prepares to attack Silvermoon, or even fully retake Ghostlands and restore the land. Elves also faced mistrust and prejudice from other Horde races since they joined the faction and later even racism (hello Garrosh). They left Alliance for way less then that. Also, I'm not saying they should join the Alliance. They shouldn't.

    It has also nothing to do with night elves, forsaken or draenei joining their perspective factions too.
    I can think of one big incentive for the blood elves staying with the horde, and that is that they have learned from the past.

    The people of quel'thalas have realized that they cannot go it alone anymore, nor can they just skate by as fair weather friends to those who help them in times of need. I believe the blood elves have realized that, for the security of their own future, they need to be part of something bigger (Horde or Alliance, doesn't really matter). The horde and the alliance are the two greatest military powers on azeroth (that we know of). Being a half-hearted friend to one or the other, and then dipping off when times are good for the elves, won't secure their future. To do that, the blood elves had to commit to one of those powers, and they were written as choosing the horde.

    For the blood elves to abandoned that association, just as they had done to lordaeron, would leave them with no one to turn to when the next threat arises. They would have burned most bridges with either great military power that could have come to their aid... just like when there was no one there to stop Arthas from marching his way to the sunwell and slaughtering 90% of their population.

    To me it makes perfect sense that the blood elves have chosen to stay with the horde. That's not to say they have been happy with everything the horde has done, but I believe the idea, especially now with the council instead of warchief, is for the blood elves to play a much more significant part in how the horde operates. Silvermoon would be less of a vassal state of the horde, and more of an equal partner that has more power to influence and shape the horde's future than they ever had before.

  4. #25524
    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    Indeed. I wish they would use the term species for groups that share underlying biology and culture or ethnicity for artistic/linguistic variations on a species, like Wildhammer dwarves could be of the species dwarf but the culture Wildhammer. There could also be a tab to select an ethnicity on the character creation screen, where the customization options are bundled by cultural group.
    That's the thing, the problem is that in WoW the term race is just too broad; it's used to describe species, ethnicities and magical/mechanical changes. Even if there were to be a biological component for differentiation for all races (there isn't) it is way too broad to have a meaningful value.

    It's just weird that Draenei, Tauren, Night Elf, Blood Elf and Void Elves are all defined as "different races" when the degree separation/distinction between them is so different. It's just not specific enough.

    And given all the different groups we call "races", race in WoW is so nebulous that discussions about it just lack nuance, when their main purpose really is just a gameplay thing.

    Maybe it would be nicer if we had a more nuanced species and ethnicities subcategorization, but we might as well could just see "race" in WoW as a concept heavily weighted by gaemplay decisions rather than something that makes exclusive sense within the lore, because as it stands, "race" does not require a biological component.

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    Also @Kyriani yay! you were able to change your icon!

  5. #25525
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Want to know what makes me believe that draenei were originally supposed to be horde and blood elves alliance? It's the fact that the Exodar has an easily accessible back entrance right to the racial leader, while silvermoon doesn't lol!

    All of these are without considering flying in mind cause there wasn't any flying in vanilla zones until cata:

    Orgrimmar - side entrance to thrall
    Undercity - tunnel to sylvanas
    Thunderbluff - a road behind most of the structures, away from the npc's leading right to cairne/baine

    vs.

    Stormwind - have to go through the front gate, several choke points, and lots of npcs (prior to the docks exposing the other side but even then it's probably a longer road to Varian/Anduin).
    Teldrassil - have to go through auberdine, to get to boat, to get to base of teldrassil, to use teleporter up to main city, then ride through all the npcs.
    Ironforge - have to go through the front gate, ride through several choke points and npcs, before you get to the target.

    It's probably just my own personal conspiracy theory but damn if it doesn't just make sense to me.
    From what I remember the devs saying, in the planning stages for BC the alliance were originally going to have HE, the horde would get ogres. The lack of an appealing model for female ogres and market research among Asian players asking for a cute race lead to HE going to the horde as BE. For the alliance, pandaren where chosen, but then switched with firbolg, then, as development progressed, at the last minute they were replaced with draenei. You can see this with all the firbolg stuff on Azuremyst isle. I can't remember where I read all these things, but it makes a lot of sense.

  6. #25526
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    ngl Furbolgs are cool I wish we had them too

    Furbolgs and Ogres seem to be perfect counterparts
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  7. #25527
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    That's the thing, the problem is that in WoW the term race is just too broad; it's used to describe species, ethnicities and magical/mechanical changes. Even if there were to be a biological component for differentiation for all races (there isn't) it is way too broad to have a meaningful value.

    It's just weird that Draenei, Tauren, Night Elf, Blood Elf and Void Elves are all defined as "different races" when the degree separation/distinction between them is so different. It's just not specific enough.

    And given all the different groups we call "races", race in WoW is so nebulous that discussions about it just lack nuance, when their main purpose really is just a gameplay thing.

    Maybe it would be nicer if we had a more nuanced species and ethnicities subcategorization, but we might as well could just see "race" in WoW as a concept heavily weighted by gaemplay decisions rather than something that makes exclusive sense within the lore, because as it stands, "race" does not require a biological component.
    Yea that's definitely the problem using the term "race." It tries to mix up species and culture into a single descriptive term, when those things are really not equivalent to each other at all.

    It would be cool to see Thalassian elf as the species with culture being either High Elf, Blood Elf, or Void Elf. Then if you picked Void Elf it sticks you on Alliance and Blood Elf sticks you on Horde. Someone suggested this a few pages back with images of how it might look on the character creation screen. I really like that suggestion.

  8. #25528
    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    Yea that's definitely the problem using the term "race." It tries to mix up species and culture into a single descriptive term, when those things are really not equivalent to each other at all.

    It would be cool to see Thalassian elf as the species with culture being either High Elf, Blood Elf, or Void Elf. Then if you picked Void Elf it sticks you on Alliance and Blood Elf sticks you on Horde. Someone suggested this a few pages back with images of how it might look on the character creation screen. I really like that suggestion.
    Indeed, I like that one a lot too! IMO the character creation screen could be revamped in much cooler ways. If there was customization options regarding racials during creation, this could have so much more potential.

    TBH I would go as far as to put all elves on the same category

  9. #25529
    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Aww... Bad bad humans.

    That's why the Blood Elves returned to Dalaran twice I suppose... Because humans are really bad and racist.


    Anyways... Quel'Thalas and Silvermoon are part of Alliance Lore more than ever now. So no I don't get over it.

    Also your comment about how the Alliance is all about humans and its history so bad is really funny considering what the blood elves have become in the Horde since Wotlk... Humans with long ears having faith in the light.
    Thankfully they made great buddies with three groups that tried to wipe them out. :^)

    But at least they didn't have an individual member of those groups act racist! Insert clap emojis here.

  10. #25530
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    TBH I would go as far as to put all elves on the same category
    Agreed. They are all very closely related after all.

  11. #25531
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Nah, we are talking about more elves, not more of other races. Presumably more elves means more other sub races.

    but night elf worgen are worgen, why should humans be favoured as the humanoid version of those worgens givign them yet another race? why can't it be night elves who only have 1 allied race, even though elves have 2.

    We want more elves, but that's not to say we want them without other races.

    Your WoD scenario is when Blizzard just focused on orcs.. , no other races.

    If we get naga, you can't avoid elves, they are an elf based race, whether as n allied race or full race. And an elf for them would be cool. Optional transofmation means if you hate elves you can just stay in serpent form, if you love elves you have a choice. Haters would say, give us serpent form and remove elf mode totally, the reason they say that even though they have a choice to be in serpent form all the times, is because they hate elves, and don't like you playing them.. so whether blizzard gave no elf improvements, they'd complain..because you play it, and theys ee many elves around.

    The elven subraces have not increased the elf fans or elven popularity, what's happened is that the elf players have used other elf options. mostly. I think only human n umbers suffered from void elves really, but then humans are still very poppular.
    Well, more Elf-sub races is kind of not warranted, all things considered.

    The 5 (arguably 6) main groups of Elves:
    Night Elves
    Blood Elves
    Nightborne
    Void Elves
    (and through RP)
    High Elves
    Highborne

    Are all playable. Unless it's through extra customization, like red eyes for Blood Elves - then, I just can't see how an extra elf race can add something. I'm all for more features, but not another Darnassian and Thalassian Elf race, taking up an sub-race slot.
    Not when we could have something like Ogres (Horde) and Ethereals (Alliance.)

    And the common Worgen lore does come from the kaldorei, but now - Blizzard have wrote the "Worgen" side out of the Night Elves and given it to the Humans. It's likely because they don't want to confuse players. The Worgen we play as are former Humans and they were set up to do battle against the Forsaken, also - former Humans.

    Again, we as elf fans are not bleeding for options - especially when 9.1.5 comes around. We are being treated well, especially the Nightborne. (Better late than never.)

  12. #25532
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    The Wrynns and their High Elf bitches



    (also I'm in need of someone who could texture Vereesa's tabard with the Silver Covenant design)
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  13. #25533
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Stormwind is fairly suitable for the High Elves, considering they love working with Humans and many live between Stormwind and Dalaran.

    Night Elves will likely get something on Hyjal/Nordrassil.
    Forsaken will likely return to Lordaeron.
    No alliance , or high elf fan will ever agree that stormwind is suitable or fairly suitable for high elves. If you're a fan, it's not home, your people didn't build it, and as an elf you won't be satisfied with living in someone else's place as youyr permanent home.

    NAnd night elves are even more fiercely proud. Have the land, the power, the expertise and you should be able to.

    High Elves/Void elves:

    Land: Telogrus rift or Crystalsong Forest are both available to claim amongst other sides
    Power: The power of the void is the new energy /power source they can tap into if they can't use the sunwell directly.
    Expertise: The void elf scholars are some of the most learned and dedicated practitioners of magic. Look who comes to study the void? Scholars, magicians.. the expertise is there.

    Night Elves:
    Land: North and western Kalimdor, Broken Isles, anywhere from Val'sharah to broken shore (incl Suramar apart from the bit the Nightborne are in.
    Power: Well of Eternity, The emerald dream/world tree, Font of Elune.
    Expertise: Ancients of lore etc who remember everything (they helped build the original cities and remember every detail), Shen'dralar Highborne - (they engineered many of the magical wonders that made the kaldorei empire magical wonder and spectacle). 10k year+ priests who'd have been part of the building of some of the most extraordinary temples (see Cathedral of Eternal night, Temples of Elune in Zin'Azshari, Val'sharah, old Darnassus.) It was the ancients and those very highborne that built the kaldorei cities.


    From a lore point of view, night elves and void/high elves can gain powerful cities.

    but we all know, established lore is meaningless in these things. If they had no expertise we could logically trace or power or anything and blizz wanted to give them a city, they'd give them one and write the lore for al the pieces you need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    The Wrynns and their High Elf bitches



    (also I'm in need of someone who could texture Vereesa's tabard with the Silver Covenant design)
    They look ghastly, like pimps and their hos. Not the most flattering rendition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Indeed, I like that one a lot too! IMO the character creation screen could be revamped in much cooler ways. If there was customization options regarding racials during creation, this could have so much more potential.

    TBH I would go as far as to put all elves on the same category
    Yes, pretty much.. blizzard were clever in wow, by focusing on the aspects of one group that were diminished in another t, then changing their models to make them deafferent. But erven then, they were very similar. The Silvermoon architecture had a lot of inspiration from the Darnassus one - but players were so fooled by the whole package they missed it.

    And then did the same with Suramar,. but then it's only wow that insisted on such distinctiveness.. because of the factions.

    Good thing is most players see them as very similar, it's only die hards that are so fixated on them, that love seeing them as a completely different race - which I've never understand how they could think so when they both bear the name "elf" in their race name. and you can literally see the similarities if you look and think.

  14. #25534
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    No alliance , or high elf fan will ever agree that stormwind is suitable or fairly suitable for high elves.
    well at least you didn't say Silvermoon/Quel'thalas like those who demand another mile after being given a mile

    I'd say Eldre'thalas; it's the last remaining Highborne bastion and Mordent has a claim on it. The Alliance High Elves and the Void Elves (and the Draenei too) can unite with the Alliance Highborne to restore Eldre'thalas and make it a new arcane bastion for the Alliance

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    They look ghastly, like pimps and their hos. Not the most flattering rendition.
    hmm Quenching Mod is turned off so perhaps Reforged looks ugly here
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  15. #25535
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Eldre'thalas! It could be a new fortress for Void Elves, Shen'dralar, and Alliance High Elves (with Draenei inhabitants since they're also arcane-oriented)
    Was kinda more thinking something in Arathi or Loch Modan, maybe Darkshore.
    Last edited by Lilithvia; 2021-09-18 at 02:46 PM.

  16. #25536
    Pit Lord Dristereau's Avatar
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    Which do we prefer? Purple or Blue? I really like the Alliance specific sets, want to get the hunter set as well
    Dristereau - Axxolentus - Thundereau - Culmination - Nulo - Somniare

    Silvermoon
    - Shadowsong/Aszune - Tarren-Mill/Dentarg

  17. #25537
    The Lightbringer The-Shan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithvia View Post
    Was kinda more thinking something in Arathi or Loch Modan, maybe Darkshore.
    Or in a revampedAlterac, imagine a fortress of shadow and snow.
    thinly veiled high elf thread

  18. #25538
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    Or in a revampedAlterac, imagine a fortress of shadow and snow.
    Nah, Alterac deserves to lie in ruins. Bunch of traitors.

  19. #25539
    Shouldn't this thread be merged with the official Blood Elf thread, since they are basically one and the same?

  20. #25540
    WC3 Megathreader Lilithvia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Shouldn't this thread be merged with the official Blood Elf thread, since they are basically one and the same?
    Pretty sure this thread is much older, so it'd be the other way around

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