1. #25781
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post

    But that's literally what it did not happen. That's why the soul split is an important point of the discussion, because people seem to be misunderstanding it as it split sylvanas into a good and a bad one, instead of contrasting a present with a past version of the same person.
    Exactly. That's what I meant to convey. Whiles the real world parallel might be past version of the same person, this is more than that, it's a different entity, this is basically two people - like your good self and your bad self.. which is a common thing in fantasy based on real world concepts.


    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    But the soul split doesn't cause the loss of empathy and emotion, or any sort of qualifiable faculty that might be used to absolve any guilt.
    Ah this is the grey area though, and a lawyer could mount a successful defence, if you could separate Sylvanas and punish bad Sylvanas then problem solved, where does that leave the other half though? You could say it's an incomplete person and once whole that whole entity isn't guilty, but yet at the same time, does bear ALL the responsibility of waht evil half did.

    It is then in part fleshing this out and how you deal with that - what is a suitable punishment?

    Where redemption is possible, punishment is meant to give or bring correction, while also this is a part of justice.. justice is meant to save even though it punishes. it's probably the line between justice and vengeance.

    Is Sylvanas' torture and punishment with the anguish within suitable punishment and is a life of atonement the fate she must consign herself with to repay.? Doesn't the winter Soldier in Falcon and the Winter solder Disney show explore this as well? A person who did terrible crimes not really themselves. But then does a crucial act that ends up saving the world, gets pass s because he is now in right mind or sanity, and now his new self is given a chance to live and also prove himself, and he uses this to actually try and do good.

    Is it not a similar thing with Sylvanas? Would Tyrande , as a wise and ancient high priestess with the Goddess who knows the full picture speaking to her, no longer consumed with rage and thus able to get supernatural insight from said goddess, able to see this?

    Would Tyrande's judgement of Sylvanas, as High priestess of Elune, voice of Elune and leader of the Kaldorei that were burnt be the one qualified to decide Sylvanas' fat and her judgement whatever it may be considered the just one as she is the only one capable of rendering it given it was her people massacred and suffered the most out of all, but also she has a level of understanding and compassion too no one can argue against.. - it's like who can judge a sinner but only one who is righteous? And whatever the righteous person decrees , then so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Sylvanas is a new person in as much as being forced to talk with a 10 year younger version of her can be. It's psychological, not that she's literally regaining her ability to feel empathy
    Yes exactly, it's a turn around moment for her..

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I think that the less infuriating way would be for Tyrande to simply state that killing Sylvanas wouldn't fix anything. The question remains how can be Sylvanas made to pay in any sort of constructive way?

    IDK, we can use Sylvanas Anima to put every night elf soul into a wildseed and rebirth them.
    This is also true, killing Sylvanas certainly wouldn't fix anything, and by restoring Sylvanas, the guilty Sylvanas has already been destroyed and thus paid for her crimes, she is literally no more. Harming what remains, won't change anything, especially if what remains is what saves the day (as sickened by this as some might feel, clichéd or whatever),but if she does do the saving at the end. or a crucial and especially pivotal role a s a new entity, that could have chosen not to help, and to flee etc,then a judgment of death/destruction is meaningless too regardless.

  2. #25782
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I think that the less infuriating way would be for Tyrande to simply state that killing Sylvanas wouldn't fix anything. The question remains how can be Sylvanas made to pay in any sort of constructive way?

    IDK, we can use Sylvanas Anima to put every night elf soul into a wildseed and rebirth them.
    This can be actually interesting, good point. They could use it to do many things, for example the dark rangers need healing and restoration, could develop a night elf undead lore build up. We have the Ravencrest undead that are still around, with clarity to them being restored in Black Rook hold, We know and see they are mean to help the night elves, it could be like a Night elf DK faction entirely based on night elf lore, and Sylvanas can play a role in this with the Dark rangers adding to Ravencrest undead. Could be some exciting lore to night elf Dk players who prefer a more race centred based lore than the Ebon Blade lore.

    Sylvanas could also have a profound effect on other undead elves like the San'layn and Darkfallen and also the tempering the hatred of the undead that she helped create, would be interesting to see how she ends up interacting and even working with Calia.

    Then off course there is Quel'thalas and the blood elves - Sylvanas can be a hero common to both the alliance (WC3) and horde (wow) that is now playing a role for good in developing the undead lore of the race that remains on Azeroth but in a different and almost opposite capacity to how shew was doing it before..

    But Sylvanas and could start by locating every Night elf soul from Teldrassil and guiding them to the correct afterlife, it could be something she does with Tyrande of all people and we see a different interaction now. Sylvanas knows where all these souls are too, so her help is actually very valuable and a way she can atone as the one who sent them there is to guide them to their correct afterlife, if they choose to return to their lives, they get taken to the to be rebirthed, but if they choose to stay on in the appropriate afterlife she helps guide them.

    This could actually work and can help explain why Tyrande isn't just slaughtering her. Good point Thunder. I don't think a lot of players understand concepts such as mercy, it's hard to grapple with . you see the mass slaughter and all you want is for her to burn, although it would be unjust in the light of the Sylvanas before you is not the Sylvanas that did those things, as Beloren interestingly writes above, it takes someone of incredible wisdom and a divine level of compassion "to forgive is divine right" and a great sense of justice and wisdom to see past condemning Sylvanas and destroying her - you can't leave it at that, because fans who don't understand these concepts or what is going on won't understand why, so you also have to give Sylvanas things she has to do to atone.

    I'm thinking if they could do this approach, I could be down with it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    This is also true, killing Sylvanas certainly wouldn't fix anything, and by restoring Sylvanas, the guilty Sylvanas has already been destroyed and thus paid for her crimes, she is literally no more. Harming what remains, won't change anything, especially if what remains is what saves the day (as sickened by this as some might feel, clichéd or whatever),but if she does do the saving at the end. or a crucial and especially pivotal role a s a new entity, that could have chosen not to help, and to flee etc,then a judgment of death/destruction is meaningless too regardless.
    I am resigned to them not killing her, the question is now doing it in a way that is somewhat palatable and salvageable and not a total lore fuck.

  3. #25783
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Exactly. That's what I meant to convey. Whiles the real world parallel might be past version of the same person, this is more than that, it's a different entity, this is basically two people - like your good self and your bad self.. which is a common thing in fantasy based on real world concepts.

    As I have pointed out already, that explanation lacks the nuance. Uther's words:


    When Arthas struck me down, Frostmourne shattered my soul. But it was not divided into one part that was noble and another that was cruel.
    Rather, it was as if a portion of my consciousness remained frozen in time while the rest of my soul carried on.
    To feel that missing fragment restored... well, it has caused me to reflect upon many of the choices I have made
    The point has to be stressed that one part of Sylvanas isn't intrinsically good and the other evil. That it's about the choices she made


    Ah this is the grey area though, and a lawyer could mount a successful defence, if you could separate Sylvanas and punish bad Sylvanas then problem solved, where does that leave the other half though? You could say it's an incomplete person and once whole that whole entity isn't guilty, but yet at the same time, does bear ALL the responsibility of waht evil half did.

    It is then in part fleshing this out and how you deal with that - what is a suitable punishment?

    Where redemption is possible, punishment is meant to give or bring correction, while also this is a part of justice.. justice is meant to save even though it punishes. it's probably the line between justice and vengeance.

    Is Sylvanas' torture and punishment with the anguish within suitable punishment and is a life of atonement the fate she must consign herself with to repay.? Doesn't the winter Soldier in Falcon and the Winter solder Disney show explore this as well? A person who did terrible crimes not really themselves. But then does a crucial act that ends up saving the world, gets pass s because he is now in right mind or sanity, and now his new self is given a chance to live and also prove himself, and he uses this to actually try and do good.

    Is it not a similar thing with Sylvanas? Would Tyrande , as a wise and ancient high priestess with the Goddess who knows the full picture speaking to her, no longer consumed with rage and thus able to get supernatural insight from said goddess, able to see this?

    Would Tyrande's judgement of Sylvanas, as High priestess of Elune, voice of Elune and leader of the Kaldorei that were burnt be the one qualified to decide Sylvanas' fat and her judgement whatever it may be considered the just one as she is the only one capable of rendering it given it was her people massacred and suffered the most out of all, but also she has a level of understanding and compassion too no one can argue against.. - it's like who can judge a sinner but only one who is righteous? And whatever the righteous person decrees , then so be it.


    Yes exactly, it's a turn around moment for her..
    That comparison fails because Sylvanas wasn't mind controlled as Bucky was during his tenure as the WS -better said, she isn't being made responsible for the actions she did while MC's, but all she did after-

    "Ranger General Sylvanas" doesn't really exists -or appears to exist- as an entity on her own, she's a manifestation of a frame of mind, that going by Uther's description, already got merged into the main Sylvanas. Metaphysically, all that meant for Sylvanas was to have a forced reconciliation with what she used to be. It doesn't change Sylvanas in any metaphysical way that makes her less guilty, it's psychological.

    I don't discount that her reframed mind would be used as an argument as to why kill her would be bad, that's not the point. My point is that metaphysically speaking, Ranger Sylvanas already doesn't exist anymore, as she only ever arguably did when Sylvanas mind was unable to reconcile those two aspect of herself.



    This is also true, killing Sylvanas certainly wouldn't fix anything, and by restoring Sylvanas, the guilty Sylvanas has already been destroyed and thus paid for her crimes, she is literally no more. Harming what remains, won't change anything, especially if what remains is what saves the day (as sickened by this as some might feel, clichéd or whatever),but if she does do the saving at the end. or a crucial and especially pivotal role a s a new entity, that could have chosen not to help, and to flee etc,then a judgment of death/destruction is meaningless too regardless.
    See, it's the metaphysical aspect of it all that we aren't agreeing with here. I don't think "guilty sylvanas is no more" take is accurate at all, Uther didn't cease to exist as he was when he was given his missing soul fragment back, it was never treated like him becoming a new person, the narrative treats is as a psychological reckoning, not the merging of two entities creating a new one.

  4. #25784
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    As I have pointed out already, that explanation lacks the nuance. Uther's words:




    The point has to be stressed that one part of Sylvanas isn't intrinsically good and the other evil. That it's about the choices she made




    That comparison fails because Sylvanas wasn't mind controlled as Bucky was during his tenure as the WS -better said, she isn't being made responsible for the actions she did while MC's, but all she did after-

    "Ranger General Sylvanas" doesn't really exists -or appears to exist- as an entity on her own, she's a manifestation of a frame of mind, that going by Uther's description, already got merged into the main Sylvanas. Metaphysically, all that meant for Sylvanas was to have a forced reconciliation with what she used to be. It doesn't change Sylvanas in any metaphysical way that makes her less guilty, it's psychological.

    I don't discount that her reframed mind would be used as an argument as to why kill her would be bad, that's not the point. My point is that metaphysically speaking, Ranger Sylvanas already doesn't exist anymore, as she only ever arguably did when Sylvanas mind was unable to reconcile those two aspect of herself.





    See, it's the metaphysical aspect of it all that we aren't agreeing with here. I don't think "guilty sylvanas is no more" take is accurate at all, Uther didn't cease to exist as he was when he was given his missing soul fragment back, it was never treated like him becoming a new person, the narrative treats is as a psychological reckoning, not the merging of two entities creating a new one.
    Oh, I should have read more carefully, it is different than i thought.

  5. #25785



    Some new HE content for the year, still holding the torch for braids!

    Also NGL, the expansion leak season got me wondering again if we will see more VE customizations on 10.0

  6. #25786
    I'm new here but 25,940 posts of High Elf discussion will keep my busy for a while.

  7. #25787
    Quote Originally Posted by The Polish Hammer View Post
    I'm new here but 25,940 posts of High Elf discussion will keep my busy for a while.
    lmao enjoy!

  8. #25788
    Still no really attractive option for Alliance Paladins, just different shapes of hulky ass races. :/

    Only reason I'd want something like High Elf Paladin is just to have something resembling closer to a normal human, since the default WoW humans look too steroid abusing and I enjoy my Orc Shaman well enough when I have a mood to play something like that.

  9. #25789
    Quote Originally Posted by The Polish Hammer View Post
    I'm new here but 25,940 posts of High Elf discussion will keep my busy for a while.
    Techno-archaeologists in the year 3030 are going to be so sad for us.

  10. #25790
    Can't wait to dig in.

  11. #25791
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post



    Some new HE content for the year, still holding the torch for braids!

    Also NGL, the expansion leak season got me wondering again if we will see more VE customizations on 10.0
    Looks gorgeous!

  12. #25792
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Looks gorgeous!
    Honestly still wishing the braid toggle becomes a reality hehe! While I think we really do finally have the HE aesthetic, it's still all reused assets, and I'd appreciate to the moon and back something that was developed with HE players in mind first :3

    - - - Updated - - -





    And some more, done with the in game model for better lightning!

  13. #25793
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Honestly still wishing the braid toggle becomes a reality hehe! While I think we really do finally have the HE aesthetic, it's still all reused assets, and I'd appreciate to the moon and back something that was developed with HE players in mind first :3
    More options are always welcome. I hope that 10.0 brings a plethora of new options for every race. What I'd really like to see most for Void Elves is more hairstyles. Beyond that, tattoos, eyebrow sizes, and jewelry for both sexes would be nice as well.

  14. #25794
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    More options are always welcome. I hope that 10.0 brings a plethora of new options for every race. What I'd really like to see most for Void Elves is more hairstyles. Beyond that, tattoos, eyebrow sizes, and jewelry for both sexes would be nice as well.
    I genuinely believe new Hair Styles are in the horizon (10.0), on the same level of quality we saw LFD and NB received in 9.1.5. Jewelry and eyebrow size seem like very likely, most def another category, which one I'm, not sure.

    I hope we get warpaint, and I really think it would be neat if it was something that was shared with BE, cause they do need some TLC regarding more options as well.

  15. #25795
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I genuinely believe new Hair Styles are in the horizon (10.0), on the same level of quality we saw LFD and NB received in 9.1.5. Jewelry and eyebrow size seem like very likely, most def another category, which one I'm, not sure.

    I hope we get warpaint, and I really think it would be neat if it was something that was shared with BE, cause they do need some TLC regarding more options as well.
    Agreed. Blood Elves really did get the short end of the stick when it came to their customization pass IMO.

  16. #25796
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post



    Some new HE content for the year, still holding the torch for braids!

    Also NGL, the expansion leak season got me wondering again if we will see more VE customizations on 10.0
    I was thinking a cool High Elf replacement option for Entropic Embrace would be to have Alleria-style tattoos like these that light up and start glowing instead of the void animation.

  17. #25797
    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    I was thinking a cool High Elf replacement option for Entropic Embrace would be to have Alleria-style tattoos like these that light up and start glowing instead of the void animation.
    Oh that WOULD be cool! If EE made your tattoos glow, it would be PRETTY awesome. It would require some effort, because right now EE basically just loads a default dark blue texture that has no customization (if you paint attention, you'll realize your face becomes a generic one during EE) so the effect would have to be reworked so it loads a different set of tattoos/warpaints based on your choice. It could be done I think, but seems like more effort than they are willing to put tbh.

  18. #25798
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
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    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  19. #25799


    Found my old tentacles into braids model edit, and decided to test some jewelry colors on it.

  20. #25800
    I think i know why High elves and Highborne didn't become playable as we know them.

    Both the High elves and Highborne are called Quel'dorei:
    "The high elves, or quel'dorei ("children of noble birth" in Darnassian and Thalassian), are a race descended from the night elf Highborne who left Kalimdor and settled in the Eastern Kingdoms, founding Quel'Thalas."

    "The Highborne (or quel'dorei, meaning "children of noble birth" in Darnassian), were the upper class and a sect of the ancient night elf civilization composed of the favored servitors of Queen Azshara."

    Therefore, the High elves needed to be separated into "Sin'dorei" (Blood elves) and "Ren'dorei" (Void elves) while the Highborne were separated into "Shal'dorei" (Nightborne) and "Kaldorei" (Night elf mages).

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