1. #25921
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    I suppose so. I just think it's a disappointing route to take to make it seem as though Sylvanas, a character shaped by a burning desire for agency, has essentially not been in control of herself or the choices she's made, for the past decade. I think it's just more evidence of the writing team not understanding the characters they have control over or the universe that has been built for them by their more competent predecessors.
    I have seen this read (bolded part) elsewhere but I can't say I see it myself. I don't think the story has said at any point Sylvanas has not been in control of herself, at most she was manipulated by the Jailer who totally!! was gonna bring free will back, y'all!!

    IMO the cinematic was about Ranger Sylvanas being in utter denial of what she had become, but she did become that. "That Banshee is you", that's her future, that's why it's so heartbreaking from her perspective.

    Again, I don't totally vibe with the necessity of bringing Past Sylvanas up to force that sense of perspective in Present Sylvanas, that does feel like a cop out, but yeah, Banshee Sylvanas, after escaping Arthas control, hasn't been controlled by anyone else.

  2. #25922
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    I suppose so. I just think it's a disappointing route to take to make it seem as though Sylvanas, a character shaped by a burning desire for agency, has essentially not been in control of herself or the choices she's made, for the past decade. I think it's just more evidence of the writing team not understanding the characters they have control over or the universe that has been built for them by their more competent predecessors.
    You seem to be misunderstanding what's happening in the story. She's not being absolved of her actions, but rather she's taking responsibility for them. This video explains it quite well:

  3. #25923
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    You seem to be misunderstanding what's happening in the story. She's not being absolved of her actions, but rather she's taking responsibility for them. This video explains it quite well:
    Actually it was watching this very same video that I remembered that Uther explicitly states whats going on on his "Stay a while and listen" with Jaina:

    When Arthas struck me down, Frostmourne shattered my soul. But it was not divided into one part that was noble and another that was cruel.
    Rather, it was as if a portion of my consciousness remained frozen in time while the rest of my soul carried on.
    To feel that missing fragment restored... well, it has caused me to reflect upon many of the choices I have made
    I feel like a lot of people that might be misunderstanding what is going on are missing this bit of context; even I, while remembering how the soul splitting worked from doing the campaign and all, had forgotten that Uther states what's going on with the soul split in quite literal and certain terms!

    EDIT: LMAO now I'm reaching the end of the vid and literally they are showing that part XD!
    Last edited by MyWholeLifeIsThunder; 2021-12-12 at 05:01 AM.

  4. #25924
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    You seem to be misunderstanding what's happening in the story. She's not being absolved of her actions, but rather she's taking responsibility for them. This video explains it quite well:
    [video=youtube;EQ5Nr4x2OLc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ5Nr4x2OLc[video]
    How exactly can she redeem herself after all she has done? How could she be punished that would be worse than everything she has already been through?

  5. #25925
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I feel like a lot of people that might be misunderstanding what is going on are missing this bit of context; even I, while remembering how the soul splitting worked from doing the campaign and all, had forgotten that Uther states what's going on with the soul split in quite literal and certain terms!
    Same here, these little details really help to accept the message this cinematic is trying to give. The problem is that if you can easily skip (like just not clicking to Uther in Korthia) this important explanation how soul split actually works, it is clear that people will not understand. Maybe it was planned to explore more before they had to scratch one patch cycle from Shadowlands development, so all we have is rushed campaign which tries end all covenant stories and one optional "Stay a while and listen".

    On the other hand, the cinematic itself is pretty clear though. It has pretty straightforward statements in lines That Banshee is you. Her crimes are unforgivable. I must face the consequences.. The last one is the confirmation that Sylvanas herself realized that it was her who turned into a monster and for the first time, she is not trying to escape her fate. Now I'm actually interested in what insight we will get from the new book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    How exactly can she redeem herself after all she has done? How could she be punished that would be worse than everything she has already been through?
    It depends on many things, there are certainly more ways how to redeem or punish her. She can stay in Shadowlands and serve as a new Jailer (or whatever title the prime overseer of the Maw will get after Zovaal), she can return to Azeroth and face "mortal justice". She might be handed down to Tyrande who will decide her fate. At this point, we do not know. What we know is that she is probably willing to face the consequences, as has been implied in the cinematic.
    Last edited by Vaedan; 2021-12-12 at 09:33 AM.

  6. #25926
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    It depends on many things, there are certainly more ways how to redeem or punish her. She can stay in Shadowlands and serve as a new Jailer (or whatever title the prime overseer of the Maw will get after Zovaal), she can return to Azeroth and face "mortal justice". She might be handed down to Tyrande who will decide her fate. At this point, we do not know. What we know is that she is probably willing to face the consequences, as has been implied in the cinematic.
    Tyrande and Sylvanas are set to meet again in 9.2, although that meeting has not been datamined yet.

    I must say, I've been very critical of Sylvanas, but the more "Ranger General" version of her is the character I loved. This was the reason why I made a Blood Elf Hunter. Even though she was dark, she still carried that "vibe" about her during WoTLK.

  7. #25927
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Same here, these little details really help to accept the message this cinematic is trying to give. The problem is that if you can easily skip (like just not clicking to Uther in Korthia) this important explanation how soul split actually works, it is clear that people will not understand. Maybe it was planned to explore more before they had to scratch one patch cycle from Shadowlands development, so all we have is rushed campaign which tries end all covenant stories and one optional "Stay a while and listen".

    On the other hand, the cinematic itself is pretty clear though. It has pretty straightforward statements in lines That Banshee is you. Her crimes are unforgivable. I must face the consequences.. The last one is the confirmation that Sylvanas herself realized that it was her who turned into a monster and for the first time, she is not trying to escape her fate. Now I'm actually interested in what insight we will get from the new book.
    Indeed! I do think the cinematic was clear enough, but I do get how people would have doubts. Nonetheless, Uther's whole story is all about this, and while I get that non Kyrian players only saw one part of it, it was the necessary one to understand what's going on, and the "stay a while and listen" in Korthia pretty much spells it out.

    Now, should an important story beat be more prominent than a "stay a while and listen"? I would say so. It feels like a lot of the narrative impact is hanging on to knowledge of this, so I would think that having Uther talk about his experience kind of should have been an impromptu RP moment in Korthia from time to time. TBH it would have been neat that if the "stay a while and listen" events happen randomly thorough the day.

  8. #25928
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Tyrande and Sylvanas are set to meet again in 9.2, although that meeting has not been datamined yet.

    Yes, I'm actually really curious how their meeting will turn out. Both went through major change lately. I must say, I hope Tyrande would remain some of the ruthless face Night Warrior brought, but I don't know, with all that "renewal over vengeance", anything is possible.

    I must say, I've been very critical of Sylvanas, but the more "Ranger General" version of her is the character I loved. This was the reason why I made a Blood Elf Hunter. Even though she was dark, she still carried that "vibe" about her during WoTLK.
    You know, after WotLK, Sylvanas story was about escaping her fate. She knew what is waiting on her and she did what she could to further that fate, nothing suggested she worked for Jailer for years. I wonder... Did she really wanted to serve him all this time? When you watch the Legion cinematic when Vol'jin named her Warchief, she was surprised. In Before the Storm, she admited in her thoughts that she did not want to be a Warchief.
    Now I speculate that even though she knew about the Jailer and made a pact with him, while she was on Azeroth, she was doing her business to avoid that... service. She did all she could to not die and get into the Shadowlands. Eventually, Jailer manipulated her into a position of power, reminded her of the pact she made years ago and set her on a path leading to her orchestrating worldwide conflict. When she saw his influence is too great, she submitted and joined his cause finaly.

    Maybe we will learn more about this in the new book.

  9. #25929
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    How exactly can she redeem herself after all she has done? How could she be punished that would be worse than everything she has already been through?
    Redeem herself? I don't think she can. I also don't think that's what Blizzard is trying to do with her. And while were I in Sylvanas's place, I wouldn't believe myself redeemable, it wouldn't stop me from trying to do something... anything... to make up for the terrible things I had done. As for punishment... I don't think there's any that would make the people of Teldrassil feel better, nor make Sylvanas feel like she has repaid her debt to them. Even were Sylvanas to die heroically stopping Zovall from unmaking the universe, the stigma of her prior actions would always be there.

    I don't think Blizzard is trying to tell a redemption story, but rather a "fall from grace" story. How Sylvanas went from being a hero of Silvermoon, to a genocidal murderer, and perhaps, how she might try to make up for that even if nothing she does could ever make up for her actions.

  10. #25930
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I have seen this read (bolded part) elsewhere but I can't say I see it myself. I don't think the story has said at any point Sylvanas has not been in control of herself, at most she was manipulated by the Jailer who totally!! was gonna bring free will back, y'all!!

    IMO the cinematic was about Ranger Sylvanas being in utter denial of what she had become, but she did become that. "That Banshee is you", that's her future, that's why it's so heartbreaking from her perspective.

    Again, I don't totally vibe with the necessity of bringing Past Sylvanas up to force that sense of perspective in Present Sylvanas, that does feel like a cop out, but yeah, Banshee Sylvanas, after escaping Arthas control, hasn't been controlled by anyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    You seem to be misunderstanding what's happening in the story. She's not being absolved of her actions, but rather she's taking responsibility for them. This video explains it quite well:
    I usually find it very hard to sit through Taliesin's constant apologia and this video was no different. But, I watched the whole thing and still disagree with him about the implications of the fundamentals of the story decision and with the idea that it was a good decision to make.

    Even if the writers and the characters believe that Frostmourne's soul-shattering properties do not absolve someone of the sins one element of themselves made while they were not whole, I believe they are wrong and, as such, I do not think this is a good direction to go in. When it comes to real-world justice, we factor in things that might impact someone's cognition: alcohol, narcotics, sleep-walking, trauma, passion etc. A person is not fully capable of making rational decisions when their faculties are impaired and Sylvanas (and Uther) having an aspect of themselves, clearly an empathetic and reflective part, stolen away from them and having the remaining elements of that person go on to do terrible things, undermines the ability to judge that person as being wholly in control of their actions.

    Even if Blizzard is suggesting with this cinematic that Sylvanas will no go unpunished for her decisions, it still results in an equally frustrating case of affairs wherein people who ponder the implications of a soul-shattering are going to be compelled to judge her less harshly because she was literally not truly herself - regardless of what Taliesin argues.

  11. #25931
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Even if the writers and the characters believe that Frostmourne's soul-shattering properties do not absolve someone of the sins one element of themselves made while they were not whole, I believe they are wrong and, as such, I do not think this is a good direction to go in. When it comes to real-world justice, we factor in things that might impact someone's cognition: alcohol, narcotics, sleep-walking, trauma, passion etc. A person is not fully capable of making rational decisions when their faculties are impaired and Sylvanas (and Uther) having an aspect of themselves, clearly an empathetic and reflective part, stolen away from them and having the remaining elements of that person go on to do terrible things, undermines the ability to judge that person as being wholly in control of their actions.

    Even if Blizzard is suggesting with this cinematic that Sylvanas will no go unpunished for her decisions, it still results in an equally frustrating case of affairs wherein people who ponder the implications of a soul-shattering are going to be compelled to judge her less harshly because she was literally not truly herself - regardless of what Taliesin argues.
    The use of alcohol, drugs, acting on a basis of trauma or passion does not change your trial though. You still get punished. The only case when you are being judged differently is when your perception is shrouded and you can't control yourself. Even then, you can be put into the jail, with the constant medical care.

    It is not the case of Sylvanas. When your soul is split, it's still you. It does not make good or bad side. It makes your soul incomplete, which creates major pain you are going through. Jailer used that pain to manipulate people. Uther told her she will need to embrace what she become in order to wake up and at the end of the cinematic, she did. She does not expect to be forgiven and Uther did not comfort her that she will, on the contrary.

  12. #25932
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    The use of alcohol, drugs, acting on a basis of trauma or passion does not change your trial though. You still get punished. The only case when you are being judged differently is when your perception is shrouded and you can't control yourself. Even then, you can be put into the jail, with the constant medical care.

    It is not the case of Sylvanas. When your soul is split, it's still you. It does not make good or bad side. It makes your soul incomplete, which creates major pain you are going through. Jailer used that pain to manipulate people. Uther told her she will need to embrace what she become in order to wake up and at the end of the cinematic, she did. She does not expect to be forgiven and Uther did not comfort her that she will, on the contrary.
    However it does have mitigating effects. Sylvanas now is not the Sylvanas that committed those crimes. We argue that from perspectives of "not in right mind" , "substance influence", "psychological trauma".. this case is far more powerful because we know her soul was split, and we know how, it will have to have mitigating effects.

    Tyrande meeting with Sylvanas should for a change show the High priestess side of her, forgiveness and healing -if Tyrande understands what has actually happened, and has truly found inner peace and resolve through mercy, she will be an advocate for Sylvanas,

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Indeed! I do think the cinematic was clear enough, but I do get how people would have doubts. Nonetheless, Uther's whole story is all about this, and while I get that non Kyrian players only saw one part of it, it was the necessary one to understand what's going on, and the "stay a while and listen" in Korthia pretty much spells it out.

    Now, should an important story beat be more prominent than a "stay a while and listen"? I would say so. It feels like a lot of the narrative impact is hanging on to knowledge of this, so I would think that having Uther talk about his experience kind of should have been an impromptu RP moment in Korthia from time to time. TBH it would have been neat that if the "stay a while and listen" events happen randomly thorough the day.
    I think it's not as much the cinematic that is difficult as it is the concepts they are tackling. Redemption? Forgiveness? Accountability? Guilt? Responsibility - it's a unique situation for sure - how much is a person to blame when they are not in control of their own faculties themselves or are not entirely themselves. How does this change when they actually become a new person

  13. #25933
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Tyrande meeting with Sylvanas should for a change show the High priestess side of her, forgiveness and healing -if Tyrande understands what has actually happened, and has truly found inner peace and resolve through mercy, she will be an advocate for Sylvanas,
    This made me vomit. I'm being dramatic, but what an utterly horrific way to wrap up the genocide plotline.

    People use religion to guilt trip victims into forgiving and even helping recuperate their own abusers to the point of absolving them of their crimes.

    "You wont find salvation without forgiveness."
    "Your hatred will eat at your soul."
    "You must forgive to move on and heal."
    "You are not a person of good faith if you hate instead of love."

    Tyrande being a priestess, and to an extent, the religious Night Elves have no obligation to forgive their mass murderer. Sylvanas is neither Alliance, a Night Elf, nor a follower of Elune, therefore she has less reason to make a very extraordinary exception to console or rehabilitate Sylvanas. She owes Sylvanas nothing. Nobody is owed forgiveness.

    That being said, I think this scenario is likely to happen. Its egregious because there is a lot of parallel between this story and the abuse that actually happened at Blizzard - and because Blizzard is in charge, they literally can force the moral, "Justice is bad because it is vengeance. Victims must always forgive." They can also literally make God/Elune tell her followers that they need to forgive their genocider, else be denied "renewal".

    What would be a twist is if Sylvanas actually did become a follower of Elune, or religious in some way as a form of repentance. Might make for some interesting dialog between Sylvanas, Calia, and the more morally grey Forsaken.

  14. #25934
    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    This made me vomit. I'm being dramatic, but what an utterly horrific way to wrap up the genocide plotline.
    And i'm sure that is what will happen. It's already been set up.. for Tyrande to lash out now, completely undoes the healing and resolution to fight for life that concluded heer arc.


    however it may not be so cringe worthy depending on how the scene is written to play out. Sometimes being hte one to show mercy actually makes you incredible - but it depends on the circumstances and how it is written out.

  15. #25935
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    I usually find it very hard to sit through Taliesin's constant apologia and this video was no different. But, I watched the whole thing and still disagree with him about the implications of the fundamentals of the story decision and with the idea that it was a good decision to make.

    Even if the writers and the characters believe that Frostmourne's soul-shattering properties do not absolve someone of the sins one element of themselves made while they were not whole, I believe they are wrong and, as such, I do not think this is a good direction to go in. When it comes to real-world justice, we factor in things that might impact someone's cognition: alcohol, narcotics, sleep-walking, trauma, passion etc. A person is not fully capable of making rational decisions when their faculties are impaired and Sylvanas (and Uther) having an aspect of themselves, clearly an empathetic and reflective part, stolen away from them and having the remaining elements of that person go on to do terrible things, undermines the ability to judge that person as being wholly in control of their actions.
    But that's the thing, I don't get where are you getting the implication that Sylvanas faculties were impaired. Uther himself says it, he wasn't split on a good or bad Uther, but that one part of him was "frozen in time" of his death.

    What Uther says in Korthia:

    When Arthas struck me down, Frostmourne shattered my soul. But it was not divided into one part that was noble and another that was cruel.
    Rather, it was as if a portion of my consciousness remained frozen in time while the rest of my soul carried on.
    To feel that missing fragment restored... well, it has caused me to reflect upon many of the choices I have made
    That's pretty much the only relevant point of Taliesin's video here, the rest is just subjective. The important part is that Sylvanas wasn't robbed of her compassion or empathy and that is a misunderstanding of how the soul split works. "Ranger General Sylvanas" is a snapshot of who she was at that point, not a literal quality that was stolen from Sylvanas and lead her to commit atrocities.

    Basically, if Sylvanas soul hadn't "shattered", the implication is that she would have done the same things. The restored soul fragment, as with Uther, serves to force a confrontation with "who the person used to be", and in the case of Sylvanas and Uther, the dissonance itself is torturous.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    I think it's not as much the cinematic that is difficult as it is the concepts they are tackling. Redemption? Forgiveness? Accountability? Guilt? Responsibility - it's a unique situation for sure - how much is a person to blame when they are not in control of their own faculties themselves or are not entirely themselves. How does this change when they actually become a new person
    But that's literally what it did not happen. That's why the soul split is an important point of the discussion, because people seem to be misunderstanding it as it split sylvanas into a good and a bad one, instead of contrasting a present with a past version of the same person.

    Uther didn't become "evil" because his soul was split, his problem was that he was forced to erase his memories, and that caused his unresolved trauma to weigh him down, that made him a Foresworn.

    But the soul split doesn't cause the loss of empathy and emotion, or any sort of qualifiable faculty that might be used to absolve any guilt.

    Sylvanas is a new person in as much as being forced to talk with a 10 year younger version of her can be. It's psychological, not that she's literally regaining her ability to feel empathy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    And i'm sure that is what will happen. It's already been set up.. for Tyrande to lash out now, completely undoes the healing and resolution to fight for life that concluded heer arc.


    however it may not be so cringe worthy depending on how the scene is written to play out. Sometimes being hte one to show mercy actually makes you incredible - but it depends on the circumstances and how it is written out.
    I think that the less infuriating way would be for Tyrande to simply state that killing Sylvanas wouldn't fix anything. The question remains how can be Sylvanas made to pay in any sort of constructive way?

    IDK, we can use Sylvanas Anima to put every night elf soul into a wildseed and rebirth them.
    Last edited by MyWholeLifeIsThunder; 2021-12-14 at 11:04 PM.

  16. #25936
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post

    But that's literally what it did not happen. That's why the soul split is an important point of the discussion, because people seem to be misunderstanding it as it split sylvanas into a good and a bad one, instead of contrasting a present with a past version of the same person.
    Exactly. That's what I meant to convey. Whiles the real world parallel might be past version of the same person, this is more than that, it's a different entity, this is basically two people - like your good self and your bad self.. which is a common thing in fantasy based on real world concepts.


    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    But the soul split doesn't cause the loss of empathy and emotion, or any sort of qualifiable faculty that might be used to absolve any guilt.
    Ah this is the grey area though, and a lawyer could mount a successful defence, if you could separate Sylvanas and punish bad Sylvanas then problem solved, where does that leave the other half though? You could say it's an incomplete person and once whole that whole entity isn't guilty, but yet at the same time, does bear ALL the responsibility of waht evil half did.

    It is then in part fleshing this out and how you deal with that - what is a suitable punishment?

    Where redemption is possible, punishment is meant to give or bring correction, while also this is a part of justice.. justice is meant to save even though it punishes. it's probably the line between justice and vengeance.

    Is Sylvanas' torture and punishment with the anguish within suitable punishment and is a life of atonement the fate she must consign herself with to repay.? Doesn't the winter Soldier in Falcon and the Winter solder Disney show explore this as well? A person who did terrible crimes not really themselves. But then does a crucial act that ends up saving the world, gets pass s because he is now in right mind or sanity, and now his new self is given a chance to live and also prove himself, and he uses this to actually try and do good.

    Is it not a similar thing with Sylvanas? Would Tyrande , as a wise and ancient high priestess with the Goddess who knows the full picture speaking to her, no longer consumed with rage and thus able to get supernatural insight from said goddess, able to see this?

    Would Tyrande's judgement of Sylvanas, as High priestess of Elune, voice of Elune and leader of the Kaldorei that were burnt be the one qualified to decide Sylvanas' fat and her judgement whatever it may be considered the just one as she is the only one capable of rendering it given it was her people massacred and suffered the most out of all, but also she has a level of understanding and compassion too no one can argue against.. - it's like who can judge a sinner but only one who is righteous? And whatever the righteous person decrees , then so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Sylvanas is a new person in as much as being forced to talk with a 10 year younger version of her can be. It's psychological, not that she's literally regaining her ability to feel empathy
    Yes exactly, it's a turn around moment for her..

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I think that the less infuriating way would be for Tyrande to simply state that killing Sylvanas wouldn't fix anything. The question remains how can be Sylvanas made to pay in any sort of constructive way?

    IDK, we can use Sylvanas Anima to put every night elf soul into a wildseed and rebirth them.
    This is also true, killing Sylvanas certainly wouldn't fix anything, and by restoring Sylvanas, the guilty Sylvanas has already been destroyed and thus paid for her crimes, she is literally no more. Harming what remains, won't change anything, especially if what remains is what saves the day (as sickened by this as some might feel, clichéd or whatever),but if she does do the saving at the end. or a crucial and especially pivotal role a s a new entity, that could have chosen not to help, and to flee etc,then a judgment of death/destruction is meaningless too regardless.

  17. #25937
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I think that the less infuriating way would be for Tyrande to simply state that killing Sylvanas wouldn't fix anything. The question remains how can be Sylvanas made to pay in any sort of constructive way?

    IDK, we can use Sylvanas Anima to put every night elf soul into a wildseed and rebirth them.
    This can be actually interesting, good point. They could use it to do many things, for example the dark rangers need healing and restoration, could develop a night elf undead lore build up. We have the Ravencrest undead that are still around, with clarity to them being restored in Black Rook hold, We know and see they are mean to help the night elves, it could be like a Night elf DK faction entirely based on night elf lore, and Sylvanas can play a role in this with the Dark rangers adding to Ravencrest undead. Could be some exciting lore to night elf Dk players who prefer a more race centred based lore than the Ebon Blade lore.

    Sylvanas could also have a profound effect on other undead elves like the San'layn and Darkfallen and also the tempering the hatred of the undead that she helped create, would be interesting to see how she ends up interacting and even working with Calia.

    Then off course there is Quel'thalas and the blood elves - Sylvanas can be a hero common to both the alliance (WC3) and horde (wow) that is now playing a role for good in developing the undead lore of the race that remains on Azeroth but in a different and almost opposite capacity to how shew was doing it before..

    But Sylvanas and could start by locating every Night elf soul from Teldrassil and guiding them to the correct afterlife, it could be something she does with Tyrande of all people and we see a different interaction now. Sylvanas knows where all these souls are too, so her help is actually very valuable and a way she can atone as the one who sent them there is to guide them to their correct afterlife, if they choose to return to their lives, they get taken to the to be rebirthed, but if they choose to stay on in the appropriate afterlife she helps guide them.

    This could actually work and can help explain why Tyrande isn't just slaughtering her. Good point Thunder. I don't think a lot of players understand concepts such as mercy, it's hard to grapple with . you see the mass slaughter and all you want is for her to burn, although it would be unjust in the light of the Sylvanas before you is not the Sylvanas that did those things, as Beloren interestingly writes above, it takes someone of incredible wisdom and a divine level of compassion "to forgive is divine right" and a great sense of justice and wisdom to see past condemning Sylvanas and destroying her - you can't leave it at that, because fans who don't understand these concepts or what is going on won't understand why, so you also have to give Sylvanas things she has to do to atone.

    I'm thinking if they could do this approach, I could be down with it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    This is also true, killing Sylvanas certainly wouldn't fix anything, and by restoring Sylvanas, the guilty Sylvanas has already been destroyed and thus paid for her crimes, she is literally no more. Harming what remains, won't change anything, especially if what remains is what saves the day (as sickened by this as some might feel, clichéd or whatever),but if she does do the saving at the end. or a crucial and especially pivotal role a s a new entity, that could have chosen not to help, and to flee etc,then a judgment of death/destruction is meaningless too regardless.
    I am resigned to them not killing her, the question is now doing it in a way that is somewhat palatable and salvageable and not a total lore fuck.

  18. #25938
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Exactly. That's what I meant to convey. Whiles the real world parallel might be past version of the same person, this is more than that, it's a different entity, this is basically two people - like your good self and your bad self.. which is a common thing in fantasy based on real world concepts.

    As I have pointed out already, that explanation lacks the nuance. Uther's words:


    When Arthas struck me down, Frostmourne shattered my soul. But it was not divided into one part that was noble and another that was cruel.
    Rather, it was as if a portion of my consciousness remained frozen in time while the rest of my soul carried on.
    To feel that missing fragment restored... well, it has caused me to reflect upon many of the choices I have made
    The point has to be stressed that one part of Sylvanas isn't intrinsically good and the other evil. That it's about the choices she made


    Ah this is the grey area though, and a lawyer could mount a successful defence, if you could separate Sylvanas and punish bad Sylvanas then problem solved, where does that leave the other half though? You could say it's an incomplete person and once whole that whole entity isn't guilty, but yet at the same time, does bear ALL the responsibility of waht evil half did.

    It is then in part fleshing this out and how you deal with that - what is a suitable punishment?

    Where redemption is possible, punishment is meant to give or bring correction, while also this is a part of justice.. justice is meant to save even though it punishes. it's probably the line between justice and vengeance.

    Is Sylvanas' torture and punishment with the anguish within suitable punishment and is a life of atonement the fate she must consign herself with to repay.? Doesn't the winter Soldier in Falcon and the Winter solder Disney show explore this as well? A person who did terrible crimes not really themselves. But then does a crucial act that ends up saving the world, gets pass s because he is now in right mind or sanity, and now his new self is given a chance to live and also prove himself, and he uses this to actually try and do good.

    Is it not a similar thing with Sylvanas? Would Tyrande , as a wise and ancient high priestess with the Goddess who knows the full picture speaking to her, no longer consumed with rage and thus able to get supernatural insight from said goddess, able to see this?

    Would Tyrande's judgement of Sylvanas, as High priestess of Elune, voice of Elune and leader of the Kaldorei that were burnt be the one qualified to decide Sylvanas' fat and her judgement whatever it may be considered the just one as she is the only one capable of rendering it given it was her people massacred and suffered the most out of all, but also she has a level of understanding and compassion too no one can argue against.. - it's like who can judge a sinner but only one who is righteous? And whatever the righteous person decrees , then so be it.


    Yes exactly, it's a turn around moment for her..
    That comparison fails because Sylvanas wasn't mind controlled as Bucky was during his tenure as the WS -better said, she isn't being made responsible for the actions she did while MC's, but all she did after-

    "Ranger General Sylvanas" doesn't really exists -or appears to exist- as an entity on her own, she's a manifestation of a frame of mind, that going by Uther's description, already got merged into the main Sylvanas. Metaphysically, all that meant for Sylvanas was to have a forced reconciliation with what she used to be. It doesn't change Sylvanas in any metaphysical way that makes her less guilty, it's psychological.

    I don't discount that her reframed mind would be used as an argument as to why kill her would be bad, that's not the point. My point is that metaphysically speaking, Ranger Sylvanas already doesn't exist anymore, as she only ever arguably did when Sylvanas mind was unable to reconcile those two aspect of herself.



    This is also true, killing Sylvanas certainly wouldn't fix anything, and by restoring Sylvanas, the guilty Sylvanas has already been destroyed and thus paid for her crimes, she is literally no more. Harming what remains, won't change anything, especially if what remains is what saves the day (as sickened by this as some might feel, clichéd or whatever),but if she does do the saving at the end. or a crucial and especially pivotal role a s a new entity, that could have chosen not to help, and to flee etc,then a judgment of death/destruction is meaningless too regardless.
    See, it's the metaphysical aspect of it all that we aren't agreeing with here. I don't think "guilty sylvanas is no more" take is accurate at all, Uther didn't cease to exist as he was when he was given his missing soul fragment back, it was never treated like him becoming a new person, the narrative treats is as a psychological reckoning, not the merging of two entities creating a new one.

  19. #25939
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    As I have pointed out already, that explanation lacks the nuance. Uther's words:




    The point has to be stressed that one part of Sylvanas isn't intrinsically good and the other evil. That it's about the choices she made




    That comparison fails because Sylvanas wasn't mind controlled as Bucky was during his tenure as the WS -better said, she isn't being made responsible for the actions she did while MC's, but all she did after-

    "Ranger General Sylvanas" doesn't really exists -or appears to exist- as an entity on her own, she's a manifestation of a frame of mind, that going by Uther's description, already got merged into the main Sylvanas. Metaphysically, all that meant for Sylvanas was to have a forced reconciliation with what she used to be. It doesn't change Sylvanas in any metaphysical way that makes her less guilty, it's psychological.

    I don't discount that her reframed mind would be used as an argument as to why kill her would be bad, that's not the point. My point is that metaphysically speaking, Ranger Sylvanas already doesn't exist anymore, as she only ever arguably did when Sylvanas mind was unable to reconcile those two aspect of herself.





    See, it's the metaphysical aspect of it all that we aren't agreeing with here. I don't think "guilty sylvanas is no more" take is accurate at all, Uther didn't cease to exist as he was when he was given his missing soul fragment back, it was never treated like him becoming a new person, the narrative treats is as a psychological reckoning, not the merging of two entities creating a new one.
    Oh, I should have read more carefully, it is different than i thought.

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