1. #26001
    The Lightbringer Hanibuhl the Lightbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Yes.

    Much like Silvermoon scholars did in the past, a group of Darkfallen have now joined the ranks of the Ren'dorei and thus Alleria Windrunner can use them in the future.
    Funny how you forget that there are also darkfallen night elves, which you seem to forget. If it's not related to void elves or alleria, it's less important

  2. #26002
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlord Hanibuhl View Post
    Funny how you forget that there are also darkfallen night elves, which you seem to forget. If it's not related to void elves or alleria, it's less important
    I did not forget them. They are simply not even worth mentioning, because they are indeed less important.

    Darkfallen Night elves don't give anything to the Alliance aside from expendable manpower.

    Darkfallen Forsaken, on top of expendable manpower, give the Alliance an additional claim to Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas, the lands these Darkfallen died to protect from the Scourge.

  3. #26003
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I did not forget them. They are simply not even worth mentioning, because they are indeed less important.

    Darkfallen Night elves don't give anything to the Alliance aside from expendable manpower.

    Darkfallen Forsaken, on top of expendable manpower, give the Alliance an additional claim to Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas, the lands these Darkfallen died to protect from the Scourge.
    What claim are you mentioning? These Darkfallen are just soldiers, there is no important person among them, who could have any legitimate claim on these lands. Let's say, if they brought back Anasterian back as Darkfallen, then your argument might have some relevance, but saying that no name undead rangers have claim on Quel'thalas is quite stretched.

    Night elf Darkfallen are at least officialy recognized as group by Velonara. Same can't be said for Void elf Darkfallen.

  4. #26004
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    What claim are you mentioning? These Darkfallen are just soldiers, there is no important person among them, who could have any legitimate claim on these lands. Let's say, if they brought back Anasterian back as Darkfallen, then your argument might have some relevance, but saying that no name undead rangers have claim on Quel'thalas is quite stretched.

    Night elf Darkfallen are at least officialy recognized as group by Velonara. Same can't be said for Void elf Darkfallen.
    That's not how this works.

    Now, if anyone tells the Alliance that they have no right to Lordaeron, they can just say that they have Forsaken in their ranks who are entitled to return to the land they died for. Thus, the flawed logic the Horde employed for years is twisted and turned against them.

    You only need an important person if you want a claim to the throne, not to the entire country.

  5. #26005
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    That's not how this works.

    Now, if anyone tells the Alliance that they have no right to Lordaeron, they can just say that they have Forsaken in their ranks who are entitled to return to the land they died for. Thus, the flawed logic the Horde employed for years is twisted and turned against them.

    You only need an important person if you want a claim to the throne, not to the entire country.
    Sylvanas conquered Undercity from Scourge, which granted her legitimate claim over Lordaeron. That means Sylvanas, and Forsaken, had claims to Lordaeron by conquest. There was no other person who could object at the time.

    Void elf Darkfallen are not in this position. First of all, when they fought to claim Lordaeron, it was under Sylvanas' banner possibly. The moment they were exiled from the Horde, they lost all priviledges Horde could give them.

    To challenge the rights to the throne, you need important person, as you say. Void elf Darkfallen currently have no important person in their ranks. They don't even have single NPC to represent them. In game, they are non existent group with no mention, aside for character customization.

    That means Alliance have no real claim on Lordaeron through ren'dorei darkfallen.

  6. #26006
    The Lightbringer Hanibuhl the Lightbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Sylvanas conquered Undercity from Scourge, which granted her legitimate claim over Lordaeron. That means Sylvanas, and Forsaken, had claims to Lordaeron by conquest. There was no other person who could object at the time.

    Void elf Darkfallen are not in this position. First of all, when they fought to claim Lordaeron, it was under Sylvanas' banner possibly. The moment they were exiled from the Horde, they lost all priviledges Horde could give them.

    To challenge the rights to the throne, you need important person, as you say. Void elf Darkfallen currently have no important person in their ranks. They don't even have single NPC to represent them. In game, they are non existent group with no mention, aside for character customization.

    That means Alliance have no real claim on Lordaeron through ren'dorei darkfallen.
    Yeah!

    PLUS... although Quel'Thalas was part of the Alliance of Lordaeron, it wasn't part of the KINGDOM of Lordaeron.
    Elves from Quel'Thalas don't have the right to Lordaeron because they used to be in an alliance with them. That would mean the Night Elves have right to Ironforge if it ever gets taken by the Horde.

  7. #26007
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Sylvanas conquered Undercity from Scourge, which granted her legitimate claim over Lordaeron. That means Sylvanas, and Forsaken, had claims to Lordaeron by conquest. There was no other person who could object at the time.

    Void elf Darkfallen are not in this position. First of all, when they fought to claim Lordaeron, it was under Sylvanas' banner possibly. The moment they were exiled from the Horde, they lost all priviledges Horde could give them.

    To challenge the rights to the throne, you need important person, as you say. Void elf Darkfallen currently have no important person in their ranks. They don't even have single NPC to represent them. In game, they are non existent group with no mention, aside for character customization.

    That means Alliance have no real claim on Lordaeron through ren'dorei darkfallen.
    No, Sylvanas stated that the Forsaken had a claim on Lordaeron by virtue of being its original defenders, who died protecting that land.

    Void elf Darkfallen are Forsaken, thus according to Sylvanas they have the same claim to Lordaeron as the Horde Forsaken.

    It's all pretty straightforward really.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlord Hanibuhl View Post
    Yeah!

    PLUS... although Quel'Thalas was part of the Alliance of Lordaeron, it wasn't part of the KINGDOM of Lordaeron.
    Elves from Quel'Thalas don't have the right to Lordaeron because they used to be in an alliance with them. That would mean the Night Elves have right to Ironforge if it ever gets taken by the Horde.
    Aside from the fact that many elves lived and died in Lordaeron, since Anasterian sent formal aid to Lordaeron and there were certainly many elves living in other countries, so you can easily roleplay the dark ranger as an elf who lived and died in Lordaeron; Sylvanas did not exclude the Dark Rangers when she said that the Forsaken have a claim to Lordaeron. Thus, all Forsaken have a claim to Lordaeron, not just Undead Humans. And thereby, all Dark Rangers have a claim to Lordaeron, just like Undead humans.

  8. #26008
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No, Sylvanas stated that the Forsaken had a claim on Lordaeron by virtue of being its original defenders, who died protecting that land.

    Void elf Darkfallen are Forsaken, thus according to Sylvanas they have the same claim to Lordaeron as the Horde Forsaken.

    It's all pretty straightforward really.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Aside from the fact that many elves lived and died in Lordaeron, since Anasterian sent formal aid to Lordaeron and there were certainly many elves living in other countries, so you can easily roleplay the dark ranger as an elf who lived and died in Lordaeron; Sylvanas did not exclude the Dark Rangers when she said that the Forsaken have a claim to Lordaeron. Thus, all Forsaken have a claim to Lordaeron, not just Undead Humans. And thereby, all Dark Rangers have a claim to Lordaeron, just like Undead humans.
    You still miss the part that claim is applied to the Forsaken faction, who are Horde aligned undead. The moment these Undead leave Forsaken to join other faction (Priest Conclave, Argent Crusade or Alliance), they lose all rights and priviledges tied to the faction they are leaving.

    If you want to claim a some lands, you still need a person to rally behind. Alliance Darkfallen have no such person. You know, if you would justify Alliance claims by Turalyon, a War hero who is from Lordaeron and is now Stormwind regent, we can have some discussion. No name Darkfallen elves provide no such opportunity.

  9. #26009
    The Lightbringer Hanibuhl the Lightbringer's Avatar
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    But that makes the Undercity of Lordaeron such an interesting place. It used to be owned by the Kingdom of Lordaeron, part of the Alliance of Lordaeron... it was taken over by the Scourge, then captured and ruled by the Forsaken under the banner of the Horde... to be later conquered back by the Alliance, only to be blighted beyond redemption.
    Now, it seems to be cleansed by the Horde AND Alliance to be used again by the Forsaken and any other undead that wish to join the Forsaken.

    As a member of the Alliance, it's still weird, having helped the Horde get back a capitol that was once part of an Alliance you may or may not have been part of.

  10. #26010
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    You still miss the part that claim is applied to the Forsaken faction, who are Horde aligned undead. The moment these Undead leave Forsaken to join other faction (Priest Conclave, Argent Crusade or Alliance), they lose all rights and priviledges tied to the faction they are leaving.

    If you want to claim a some lands, you still need a person to rally behind. Alliance Darkfallen have no such person. You know, if you would justify Alliance claims by Turalyon, a War hero who is from Lordaeron and is now Stormwind regent, we can have some discussion. No name Darkfallen elves provide no such opportunity.
    Nowhere in Sylvanas' statement is that distinction made between Alliance-aligned undead and Horde-aligned undead. All she said is that the Alliance shouldn't deny the Forsaken's rights to Lordaeron, because they died for that land. That's it. There is no distinction made whatsoever.

    As a reminder, Sylvanas initially wanted to join the Alliance. It's not like she sees the Forsaken in the Alliance as some kind of sin or crime. It was opportunity alone that led them in the Horde.

    The Forsaken are not defined by their membership in the Horde, but by their past as fallen Lordaeron defenders. That is what gives them a claim to Lordaeron.

    Therefore, the Horde should not deny the Alliance Forsaken's rights to Lordaeron.

    And as a side note, the ultimate proof of this is that Alonsus Faol, neutral member of the Conclave, is still addressed as a Forsaken in Before the Storm. This is ultimate proof that a "Forsaken" is not defined by membership to the Horde, but by their past as a fallen defender of Lordaeron.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-06-03 at 01:33 PM.

  11. #26011
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Nowhere in Sylvanas' statement is that distinction made between Alliance-aligned undead and Horde-aligned undead. All she said is that the Alliance shouldn't deny the Forsaken's rights to Lordaeron, because they died for that land. That's it. There is no distinction made whatsoever.

    As a reminder, Sylvanas initially wanted to join the Alliance. It's not like she sees the Forsaken in the Alliance as some kind of sin or crime. It was opportunity alone that led them in the Horde.

    The Forsaken are not defined by their membership in the Horde, but by their past as fallen Lordaeron defenders. That is what gives them a claim to Lordaeron.

    Therefore, the Horde should not deny the Alliance Forsaken's rights to Lordaeron.
    Forsaken are special group of intelligent undead formerly ruled by Sylvanas, who are part of the Horde. There is no such thing as neutral or Alliance Forsaken. That being said, Forsaken is political organisation.

  12. #26012
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Agree that undead blood elf paladins will be weird, they could lock this customization for them as they did for DHs.
    Too late. It already went live.

  13. #26013
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Forsaken are special group of intelligent undead formerly ruled by Sylvanas, who are part of the Horde. There is no such thing as neutral or Alliance Forsaken. That being said, Forsaken is political organisation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    And as a side note, the ultimate proof of this is that Alonsus Faol, neutral member of the Conclave, is still addressed as a Forsaken in Before the Storm. This is ultimate proof that a "Forsaken" is not defined by membership to the Horde, but by their past as a fallen defender of Lordaeron.

    Forsaken is not and has never been a "political faction".

    Even in WotLK, Putress referred to himself and his followers as "Forsaken", despite the fact that they betrayed Sylvanas to join the Legion.

  14. #26014
    The Lightbringer Hanibuhl the Lightbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Forsaken is not and has never been a "political faction".

    Even in WotLK, Putress referred to himself and his followers as "Forsaken", despite the fact that they betrayed Sylvanas to join the Legion.
    You're now just debating semantics.

    Just because you were once in Lordaeron or fought for them, doesn't mean you own the lands. The Forsaken, under Sylvanas conquered the Undercity. They claimed the land when no-one else did.

    As I said before, with the help of the Horde and Alliance, it's back in the hands of the Forsaken Horde (and anyone who's undead and wants to join)

  15. #26015
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlord Hanibuhl View Post
    You're now just debating semantics.

    Just because you were once in Lordaeron or fought for them, doesn't mean you own the lands. The Forsaken, under Sylvanas conquered the Undercity. They claimed the land when no-one else did.

    As I said before, with the help of the Horde and Alliance, it's back in the hands of the Forsaken Horde (and anyone who's undead and wants to join)
    No, I'm telling you what Canon said.

    Sylvanas stated that the Forsaken have a right to Lordaeron.

    Before the Storm stated that Alonsus Faol, a neutral priest, is a Forsaken.

    Therefore, Faol would have rights to Lordaeron. Therefore, the Forsaken who defected to the Ren'dorei in 9.2.5 also have a right to Lordaeron.

    Sylvanas never cited right of conquest. She simply said that the Forsaken's right derives from the fact that they founded and built the kingdom.

    Everything I have done has been reporting Canonical statements from the source material, quite literally.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-06-03 at 01:51 PM.

  16. #26016
    The Lightbringer Hanibuhl the Lightbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No, I'm telling you what Canon said.

    Sylvanas stated that the Forsaken have a right to Lordaeron.

    Before the Storm stated that Alonsus Faol, a neutral priest, is a Forsaken.

    Therefore, Faol would have rights to Lordaeron. Therefore, the Forsaken who defected to the Ren'dorei in 9.2.5 also have a right to Lordaeron.

    Sylvanas never cited right of conquest. She simply said that the Forsaken's right derives from the fact that they founded and built the kingdom.

    Everything I have done has been reporting Canonical statements from the source material, quite literally.
    But then again.. what will all those non-Horde Forsaken do about it?

    Not a whole lot I'm affraid, given how Blizzard made it so we (as Alliance members) give the city back to the Forsaken (who are mostly Horde)

  17. #26017
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No, I'm telling you what Canon said.

    Sylvanas stated that the Forsaken have a right to Lordaeron.

    Before the Storm stated that Alonsus Faol, a neutral priest, is a Forsaken.

    Therefore, Faol would have rights to Lordaeron. Therefore, the Forsaken who defected to the Ren'dorei in 9.2.5 also have a right to Lordaeron.

    Sylvanas never cited right of conquest. She simply said that the Forsaken's right derives from the fact that they founded and built the kingdom.

    Everything I have done has been reporting Canonical statements from the source material, quite literally.
    I guess Forsaken can actually mean two separate things.

    First of all, intelligent undead who broke free of Scourge with help of Sylvanas Windrunner.

    Second, a nation formed by those undead who occupy ruins of Lordaeron, which they took from Scourge.

    Originaly, these two Forsaken were the same. Over time, some individuals left Forsaken organisation (a nation) in favor of other faction, but they are still free-willed Undead. Sylvanas allowed them to leave, but they lost all influence they had within Forsaken society. Alonsus Faol have no power within Forsaken (as a nation). His political power is within Conclave, which is Priest organisation, which he identified with.

    To use your argument, Sylvanas didn't specity she meant Forsaken as species of intelligent undead, So that right can't be applied to all Undead who are being labeled Forsaken.

    But these are just details which does not matter eventually. Lordaeron is Horde territory and has been for years. Horde gained it through Sylvanas, who took it from Scourge control. That's the important part. Sylvanas saying regarding that Forsaken have claims to the land because they died for it just express sentiment which have no legal value.

  18. #26018
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlord Hanibuhl View Post
    But then again.. what will all those non-Horde Forsaken do about it?

    Not a whole lot I'm affraid, given how Blizzard made it so we (as Alliance members) give the city back to the Forsaken (who are mostly Horde)
    It doesn't need to come to war. It's not unreasonable for Calia to provide refuge to all those who just want to go back to their home. This was the original purpose of the Forsaken, No? To offer a refuge to all those who were still in Lordaeron and freed themselves from the Scourge. Before the original purpose was twisted by Sylvanas and the Janitor into genocide of the living.

    But now those two villains are gone, so there's no reason why Lordaeron can't stand as a new beacon of unity, just as Dalaran once did, before the Purge.

  19. #26019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    What claim are you mentioning? These Darkfallen are just soldiers, there is no important person among them, who could have any legitimate claim on these lands. Let's say, if they brought back Anasterian back as Darkfallen, then your argument might have some relevance, but saying that no name undead rangers have claim on Quel'thalas is quite stretched.

    Night elf Darkfallen are at least officialy recognized as group by Velonara. Same can't be said for Void elf Darkfallen.
    The horde even gained Daleryn Summermoon which is a named night elf dark ranger. She is in the Lorderean keep and I think she found her home according to the text. Night elves were part of that storyline and were seen with the rest at the end of the first questline, were they were introduced to Calia. It's even possible Sira will return as she is in the stockades still and will choose to leave for the Forsaken, it is speculation, but there is a very big motivation for her to go to Dalyren also the other undead.

    The story is just not about Void elves, they are just there, because they can't leave them out after high elves, a lot of dark ranger are still from the high elf time. There are no further mentions of void elves specifically and I am not even sure if we saw them getting risen as we did with night and blood elves. This is not about them and nor should be, it would be completely out of the blue if Alleria or what ever void elf starts to lay claim with the forsaken and Lorderean. Sure there could be peacefull meetings between the races, but the place is very clear the home of the forsaken. But hey void elves came out of the blue, so they could asspull them again and claim because a windrunner should rule or or what ever and it should be for them;p I am obviously kidding.. right?
    Last edited by Alanar; 2022-06-03 at 04:07 PM.

  20. #26020
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    The horde even gained Daleryn Summermoon which is a named night elf dark ranger. She is in the Lorderean keep and I think she found her home according to the text. Night elves were part of that storyline and were seen with the rest at the end of the first questline, were they were introduced to Calia.

    Void elves are just there, because they can't leave them out after high elves, a lot of dark ranger are still from the high elf time,that's the only reason lets be fair.
    There are no further mentions of void elves specifically and I am not even sure if we saw them getting risen as we did with night and blood elves.
    We didn't see any void elves get raised into the "dark ranger" thing. The only risen void elves are those who fell during the Fourth War and brought back as Void Elf Death Knights, which are just the same as Nightborne Death Knights (whom are also now part of the Darkfallen clique, but you won't hear us trying to make them bigger than what they are because they are just there and have no relevance to the lore.) I picture that the only Dark Ranger lore, moving forward will be told from the Horde perspective, in the main with Velonara and Delaryn leading that front.
    They might have Sira be the voice for the kaldorei dark ranger presence on the Alliance.

    velf dark rangers are just nobodies. @Varodoc needs to just accept that. He is completely wrong (as usual), regarding the night elven darkfallen being irrelevant, when they have characters and have story. I'm sorry, but velfs are nobodies in this case.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2022-06-03 at 04:10 PM.

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