All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.
I did not forget them. They are simply not even worth mentioning, because they are indeed less important.
Darkfallen Night elves don't give anything to the Alliance aside from expendable manpower.
Darkfallen Forsaken, on top of expendable manpower, give the Alliance an additional claim to Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas, the lands these Darkfallen died to protect from the Scourge.
What claim are you mentioning? These Darkfallen are just soldiers, there is no important person among them, who could have any legitimate claim on these lands. Let's say, if they brought back Anasterian back as Darkfallen, then your argument might have some relevance, but saying that no name undead rangers have claim on Quel'thalas is quite stretched.
Night elf Darkfallen are at least officialy recognized as group by Velonara. Same can't be said for Void elf Darkfallen.
That's not how this works.
Now, if anyone tells the Alliance that they have no right to Lordaeron, they can just say that they have Forsaken in their ranks who are entitled to return to the land they died for. Thus, the flawed logic the Horde employed for years is twisted and turned against them.
You only need an important person if you want a claim to the throne, not to the entire country.
Sylvanas conquered Undercity from Scourge, which granted her legitimate claim over Lordaeron. That means Sylvanas, and Forsaken, had claims to Lordaeron by conquest. There was no other person who could object at the time.
Void elf Darkfallen are not in this position. First of all, when they fought to claim Lordaeron, it was under Sylvanas' banner possibly. The moment they were exiled from the Horde, they lost all priviledges Horde could give them.
To challenge the rights to the throne, you need important person, as you say. Void elf Darkfallen currently have no important person in their ranks. They don't even have single NPC to represent them. In game, they are non existent group with no mention, aside for character customization.
That means Alliance have no real claim on Lordaeron through ren'dorei darkfallen.
Yeah!
PLUS... although Quel'Thalas was part of the Alliance of Lordaeron, it wasn't part of the KINGDOM of Lordaeron.
Elves from Quel'Thalas don't have the right to Lordaeron because they used to be in an alliance with them. That would mean the Night Elves have right to Ironforge if it ever gets taken by the Horde.
No, Sylvanas stated that the Forsaken had a claim on Lordaeron by virtue of being its original defenders, who died protecting that land.
Void elf Darkfallen are Forsaken, thus according to Sylvanas they have the same claim to Lordaeron as the Horde Forsaken.
It's all pretty straightforward really.
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Aside from the fact that many elves lived and died in Lordaeron, since Anasterian sent formal aid to Lordaeron and there were certainly many elves living in other countries, so you can easily roleplay the dark ranger as an elf who lived and died in Lordaeron; Sylvanas did not exclude the Dark Rangers when she said that the Forsaken have a claim to Lordaeron. Thus, all Forsaken have a claim to Lordaeron, not just Undead Humans. And thereby, all Dark Rangers have a claim to Lordaeron, just like Undead humans.
You still miss the part that claim is applied to the Forsaken faction, who are Horde aligned undead. The moment these Undead leave Forsaken to join other faction (Priest Conclave, Argent Crusade or Alliance), they lose all rights and priviledges tied to the faction they are leaving.
If you want to claim a some lands, you still need a person to rally behind. Alliance Darkfallen have no such person. You know, if you would justify Alliance claims by Turalyon, a War hero who is from Lordaeron and is now Stormwind regent, we can have some discussion. No name Darkfallen elves provide no such opportunity.
But that makes the Undercity of Lordaeron such an interesting place. It used to be owned by the Kingdom of Lordaeron, part of the Alliance of Lordaeron... it was taken over by the Scourge, then captured and ruled by the Forsaken under the banner of the Horde... to be later conquered back by the Alliance, only to be blighted beyond redemption.
Now, it seems to be cleansed by the Horde AND Alliance to be used again by the Forsaken and any other undead that wish to join the Forsaken.
As a member of the Alliance, it's still weird, having helped the Horde get back a capitol that was once part of an Alliance you may or may not have been part of.
Nowhere in Sylvanas' statement is that distinction made between Alliance-aligned undead and Horde-aligned undead. All she said is that the Alliance shouldn't deny the Forsaken's rights to Lordaeron, because they died for that land. That's it. There is no distinction made whatsoever.
As a reminder, Sylvanas initially wanted to join the Alliance. It's not like she sees the Forsaken in the Alliance as some kind of sin or crime. It was opportunity alone that led them in the Horde.
The Forsaken are not defined by their membership in the Horde, but by their past as fallen Lordaeron defenders. That is what gives them a claim to Lordaeron.
Therefore, the Horde should not deny the Alliance Forsaken's rights to Lordaeron.
And as a side note, the ultimate proof of this is that Alonsus Faol, neutral member of the Conclave, is still addressed as a Forsaken in Before the Storm. This is ultimate proof that a "Forsaken" is not defined by membership to the Horde, but by their past as a fallen defender of Lordaeron.
Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-06-03 at 01:33 PM.
You're now just debating semantics.
Just because you were once in Lordaeron or fought for them, doesn't mean you own the lands. The Forsaken, under Sylvanas conquered the Undercity. They claimed the land when no-one else did.
As I said before, with the help of the Horde and Alliance, it's back in the hands of the Forsaken Horde (and anyone who's undead and wants to join)
No, I'm telling you what Canon said.
Sylvanas stated that the Forsaken have a right to Lordaeron.
Before the Storm stated that Alonsus Faol, a neutral priest, is a Forsaken.
Therefore, Faol would have rights to Lordaeron. Therefore, the Forsaken who defected to the Ren'dorei in 9.2.5 also have a right to Lordaeron.
Sylvanas never cited right of conquest. She simply said that the Forsaken's right derives from the fact that they founded and built the kingdom.
Everything I have done has been reporting Canonical statements from the source material, quite literally.
Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-06-03 at 01:51 PM.
I guess Forsaken can actually mean two separate things.
First of all, intelligent undead who broke free of Scourge with help of Sylvanas Windrunner.
Second, a nation formed by those undead who occupy ruins of Lordaeron, which they took from Scourge.
Originaly, these two Forsaken were the same. Over time, some individuals left Forsaken organisation (a nation) in favor of other faction, but they are still free-willed Undead. Sylvanas allowed them to leave, but they lost all influence they had within Forsaken society. Alonsus Faol have no power within Forsaken (as a nation). His political power is within Conclave, which is Priest organisation, which he identified with.
To use your argument, Sylvanas didn't specity she meant Forsaken as species of intelligent undead, So that right can't be applied to all Undead who are being labeled Forsaken.
But these are just details which does not matter eventually. Lordaeron is Horde territory and has been for years. Horde gained it through Sylvanas, who took it from Scourge control. That's the important part. Sylvanas saying regarding that Forsaken have claims to the land because they died for it just express sentiment which have no legal value.