1. #26341
    Quote Originally Posted by RenTheCat View Post
    It would be more like Americans deciding they are not a British colony anymore and declaring independence, and as we can see in real life today, Americans and the British are pretty different.

    If in Lore High Elves and Blood Elves consider themselves different groups, tell you that they prefer to be addressed as X group, have cultural divergences and their allegiances lie with different factions, then they are different. You don't see Humans from other kingdoms refusing to be called humans. You don't see Orcs from X clan refusing to be called Orcs. Yet you have NPCs refusing to be called Blood Elves, or Blood Elves refusing to be called High Elves.
    Difference being that the the cultural shift between the US and UK has been 100s of years. But we're still humans. Blood elves and high elves are physically, exactly, the same species. The time from Kael renaming the faction to us running into Alleria stronghold is about 3-4 years.

  2. #26342
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    Difference being that the the cultural shift between the US and UK has been 100s of years. But we're still humans. Blood elves and high elves are physically, exactly, the same species. The time from Kael renaming the faction to us running into Alleria stronghold is about 3-4 years.
    And? I don't think they are making the point that they are biologically different, but that they are ideologically different, not unlike Huojin and Tushuii Pandaren.

    The term race is far more of a gameplay conceit than any strict denomination metric.

    You can make a Blood Elf character and they can be either undead, fel imbued or regular, but we call all of them blood elf for gameplay purposes.

    Even when a Blood Elf demon hunter is as different from a BE as a VE is in terms of cosmic power mutation.

    And yet Mechagnomes and Gnomes are different "races" when the only difference is mechanical upgrades.

    For real, the fact that, say, Orcs and Maghar are treated as different races by gameplay purposes, yet Demon Hunters and Dark Rangers are still "Blood Elves", speaks more to A) The term race not being solely defined bt biological factors, instead cultural and sociological ones being as important, and B) that some "races" as undead Forsaken will simply be added on a model that makes the most sense, even if racially they should be "Forsaken"

  3. #26343
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    Difference being that the the cultural shift between the US and UK has been 100s of years. But we're still humans. Blood elves and high elves are physically, exactly, the same species. The time from Kael renaming the faction to us running into Alleria stronghold is about 3-4 years.
    The moment the US declared its independence it already had its own culture, having things in common like speaking english doesn't mean they were the same, it didn't take hundreds of years for America to create its own new culture, it already had its unique culture, specially due to their interactions with natives, the climate of the land, the social status of the people who lived there, etc.
    It's the same with Blood Elves and High Elves. Being part of the Horde, having interacted with Fel, the organizations they created like the Blood Knights, Sunreavers, etc. all show Blood Elves have their own culture that is different from what they had when they were High Elves just 15 years ago or from High Elves now who didn't really change anything about their culture and try to preserve it as much as they can. Even between W3 and TBC Blood Elves had done enough things to differentiate themselves from High Elves.

    Them being the same species is irrelevant, and a weird way to classify them considering in the WoW universe the species is Elf, which includes Night Elves, Nightborne, etc.

  4. #26344
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    You know this is what makes me sad about the current state of this thread. You can give a thoughtful breakdown of the context in which customization options exist, and all the other person can do is dismiss everything, while taking a single tweet out of context.

    I don't want to presume malice, but it's hard to see how this isn't outright trolling at this point.
    it is my honest opinion to me what the developers say that high elves are playable in horde and that customization exists to represent high elves whether they are npcs or player characters

    but if you want something more most of these high elves are part of the reliquary and one of the goals of the high examiner taethelan was the unification of his people

  5. #26345
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    You know this is what makes me sad about the current state of this thread. You can give a thoughtful breakdown of the context in which customization options exist, and all the other person can do is dismiss everything, while taking a single tweet out of context.

    I don't want to presume malice, but it's hard to see how this isn't outright trolling at this point.
    Sadly, @Rhlor does this is in really weird ways sometimes. Sometimes he gets things spot on, other times, it's like he can't understand context and interpretation.

    Anyway, I agree with you. I actually do on most things you say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    it is my honest opinion to me what the developers say that high elves are playable in horde and that customization exists to represent high elves whether they are npcs or player characters

    but if you want something more most of these high elves are part of the reliquary and one of the goals of the high examiner taethelan was the unification of his people
    In my opinion it's down to interpretation - the developers mean you can play your blood elf as a high elf, but technically, if you're a high elf sided with the horde, you are a blood elf, because this is what they are in essence.

  6. #26346
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    it is my honest opinion to me what the developers say that high elves are playable in horde and that customization exists to represent high elves whether they are npcs or player characters

    but if you want something more most of these high elves are part of the reliquary and one of the goals of the high examiner taethelan was the unification of his people
    High Elves on the Horde call themselves "Blood Elves."

    We have seen this with the Purge of Dalaran where we saw blue-eyed Blood Elves taking up arms against the Humans and High Elves. Yes, their could be talk that they were / are High Elves who couldn't stand watching what the Alliance was doing and they chose to help their kin, but the moment they did that - they became Blood Elves.

    I do think, with what we can see in Dragonflight - Blood Elves and Void Elves are the main group of Thalassians being used. Blood Elves being the more traditional group, whereas Void Elves being the less traditional

    EDIT:
    Now, I do grant - that before the Scourge Invasion, High Elves did behave in a very "Blood Elf-like" way. Those who wanted to go beyond the borders of Quel'Thalas were looked on as "weirdos" (for lack of a better word.) The High Elves were very traditional and only cared about Quel'Thalas. This has only exemplified since the Third War where the majority changed their name to "Blood Elves."
    I doubt they would ever go back to the "Sunfury/TBC" way of life as again, that involved living on Outland which is just not part of Silvermoon Elven life.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2022-09-24 at 06:49 AM.

  7. #26347
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Sadly, @Rhlor does this is in really weird ways sometimes. Sometimes he gets things spot on, other times, it's like he can't understand context and interpretation.

    Anyway, I agree with you. I actually do on most things you say.

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    In my opinion it's down to interpretation - the developers mean you can play your blood elf as a high elf, but technically, if you're a high elf sided with the horde, you are a blood elf, because this is what they are in essence.
    is a silvermoon scholar in telogrus a blood elf or void elf? If in the future the void elves are given green eyes, which I think they should have because the silvermoon scholar are part of them, I think they are still blood elves in another faction. why? because a developer said that thalassians with green eyes they are blood elves.

  8. #26348
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    is a silvermoon scholar in telogrus a blood elf or void elf? If in the future the void elves are given green eyes, which I think they should have because the silvermoon scholar are part of them, I think they are still blood elves in another faction. why? because a developer said that thalassians with green eyes they are blood elves.
    Well, that depends on the Silvermoon scholar - he could be a blood elf identifying with the alliance (while that politically makes him a high elf, he could be apolitical - so up to him) - he could drop the blood elf and call lhimself a high elf - He is still Thalassian - and he is a scholar from Silvermoon so not labelled blood elf, but he would have identified as that, does he still?

    What's the metric on this? he clearly is with the ren'dorei now. A ren'dorei blood elf? or high elf? can that distinction be made? Does it matter really?


    You now have choice to identify as whatever you want, while their are still lines of distinctions , which ahven't changed, you have the freedom to play as a high elf, blood elf, void elf etc as far as CC will allow you

  9. #26349
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Well, that depends on the Silvermoon scholar - he could be a blood elf identifying with the alliance (while that politically makes him a high elf, he could be apolitical - so up to him) - he could drop the blood elf and call lhimself a high elf - He is still Thalassian - and he is a scholar from Silvermoon so not labelled blood elf, but he would have identified as that, does he still?

    What's the metric on this? he clearly is with the ren'dorei now. A ren'dorei blood elf? or high elf? can that distinction be made? Does it matter really?


    You now have choice to identify as whatever you want, while their are still lines of distinctions , which ahven't changed, you have the freedom to play as a high elf, blood elf, void elf etc as far as CC will allow you

    So blood elf is not a political definition? when valeera lived in stormwind for being loyal to house wrynn was she a high elf? or blood elf?

  10. #26350
    Bloodsail Admiral elbleuet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    So blood elf is not a political definition? when valeera lived in stormwind for being loyal to house wrynn was she a high elf? or blood elf?
    Rhlor, please make an effort.

    Blood elves are not defined by their allegiances. Blood elves are simply former High elves who followed Illidan's teachings and who, during that time, renamed themselves Blood elves, abandoning in the process some of their high elven traditions.

    So even if Valeera pledges loyalty to an Alliance human she's still a blood elf.
    Last edited by elbleuet; 2022-09-24 at 08:47 PM.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  11. #26351
    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Rhlor, please make an effort.

    Blood elves are not defined by their allegiances. Blood elves are simply former High elves who followed Illidan's teachings and who, during that time, renamed themselves Blood elves, abandoning in the process some of their high elven traditions.

    So even if Valeera pledges loyalty to an Alliance human she's still a blood elf.
    Also it's important to stress the origin of the term Blood Elf, they renamed themselves to honor their fallen brethren.

    From an in universe perspective a "Horde High Elf" would most likely be seen as someone that refuses to honor that tradition, so they would most likely not be respected by Blood Elves. A "Horde High Elf" would only refer themselves as such if they wanted to stand apart from the majority of the Blood Elf population -in much the same way neutral and alliance High Elves did.

    That's why the idea of a Horde High Elf is so bizarre, because the "High Elves" that are on the Horde and govern over Quel'thalas call themselves Blood Elves. To reject that name, means that you're rejecting your people.

    Which is entirely a valid personal immersion point, but by definition, a blue eyed thalassian elf that is loyal to Quel'thalas would refer to themselves as a Blood Elf.

    The "Blue Eyes High Elf" fantasy is an aesthetic that both factions have access to, but it's also evident that on the Horde, you're still a Blood Elf, because that's where your loyalty lies.

    And again, this is the generalization of it, as individual characters can very well choose to self identify as they wish. Valeera is more alliance than horde, but she has pride on her Blood Elven identity, so she still calls herself that, and I do think that leads to some ostracism on the alliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    it is my honest opinion to me what the developers say that high elves are playable in horde and that customization exists to represent high elves whether they are npcs or player characters

    but if you want something more most of these high elves are part of the reliquary and one of the goals of the high examiner taethelan was the unification of his people
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    So blood elf is not a political definition? when valeera lived in stormwind for being loyal to house wrynn was she a high elf? or blood elf?
    Being a Blood Elf is a cultural identity issue, not merely political.

    So if you are a Thalassian Elf, blue eyed or not, that is loyal to Quel'thalas and its people, Why would you call yourself a High Elf?

    And that is a question that you can answer on a personal capacity, but you cannot equate that as a blanket statement that any blue eyed elves in the Horde are High Elves, because regardless of eye color, a thalassian elf that is loyal to Silvermoon WOULD refer to themselves as a Blood Elf, because it's a matter of cultural identity.

    That's what you seem unable to grasp about this discourse, being a Blood Elf is a matter of identity, not eye color, so no, having blue eyes doesn't make you a High Elf. It gives you, as the player, the possibility of the high elf fantasy to play as you wish. But to ascribe the mere presence of blue eyes on an NPC as them being a High Elf, is completelly erroneous.
    Last edited by MyWholeLifeIsThunder; 2022-09-24 at 10:03 PM.

  12. #26352
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    So blood elf is not a political definition? when valeera lived in stormwind for being loyal to house wrynn was she a high elf? or blood elf?
    Political can also be cultural, friend.

    I simply think you're incorrect to infer some frequently occurring graphical hiccups with the Thalassian Elf model as if it is 'new lore put in by the devs' unless they specifically state it so from their own mouths and/or it is written into the game or game related media (websites/comics/books/videos, etc).

    No one is saying you cannot call your character, identify your character, however you wish, that's supported by everyone - the WoW devs included.

    But try not to mistake a common bug for newly input lore is all.

    I guarantee in the future of this game we will see yet another Thalassian Elf npc with 'wrong faction eye color'. I mean it's been happening since TBC so one can only assume it'll continue to do so (isn't there some Blood Elven smith that has blue eyes but has done/been mentioned in fuck all of the game?).

  13. #26353
    Quote Originally Posted by Geisl View Post
    Political can also be cultural, friend.

    I simply think you're incorrect to infer some frequently occurring graphical hiccups with the Thalassian Elf model as if it is 'new lore put in by the devs' unless they specifically state it so from their own mouths and/or it is written into the game or game related media (websites/comics/books/videos, etc).

    No one is saying you cannot call your character, identify your character, however you wish, that's supported by everyone - the WoW devs included.

    But try not to mistake a common bug for newly input lore is all.

    I guarantee in the future of this game we will see yet another Thalassian Elf npc with 'wrong faction eye color'. I mean it's been happening since TBC so one can only assume it'll continue to do so (isn't there some Blood Elven smith that has blue eyes but has done/been mentioned in fuck all of the game?).
    danuser said that he was going to introduce npcs with new customizations in the game. it's not that it's a mistake those are the canon eye colors

  14. #26354
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    danuser said that he was going to introduce npcs with new customizations in the game. it's not that it's a mistake those are the canon eye colors
    Yes I understand that mate, but you need to understand what happened with that one female blood elf NPC with purple eyes, and all the other female high elf NPCs with purple eyes, was a color correction. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Again, you’re free to create the origin and identify how you wish of your own character and that is supported by both everyone here and WoW devs too.

    Refer to your own character as a Horde High Elf if you wish, but per lore there are only Blood Elves in the Horde at this moment. It can always change, but yet has not.

    Please understand that is all others have been trying to explain to you here.

  15. #26355
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    alternate timeline where vereesa seizes quel'thalas for the alliance





    - - - Updated - - -

    custom game is Lordaeron: The Aftermath
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  16. #26356
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    I think you're taking things out of context or intentionally misrepresenting them. In the same way that wildhammer dwarves customization are available to players so they can RP they are playing as a wildhammer but that does not equal out to trying to say 'in lore, wildhammer dwarves have sworn fealty to bronzebeards hence wearing their heritage armor'.

    You're taking a player customization option and talking as if in-game lore has been changed. There is no in-game lore of a 'Horde High Elf' that's simply a Blood Elf. They're all Blood Elves and identify themselves as Blood Elves - even if there are now some with blue eyes.

    There is no such lore development of a neutral High Elf or Alliance-aligned High Elf going back to Silvermoon to join the Blood Elves, let alone calling themselves 'Horde High Elf'.

    So I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at really and I am more apt to agree with MyWholeLifeIsThunder that if you're talking about Blood Elves/Horde 'High Elves' you may as well simply keep it in whatever blood elf thread there is that others here are referring to.

    Let me repeat: There is no such thing in lore as of this moment that a self-identifying High Elf of neutral or Alliance standing recently (as in the inception of WoW) went and joined the Horde. Any High Elf that swore allegiance to the Horde was already identifying as a Blood Elf. Only Blood Elves are allied with the Horde. Whether they have blue eyes or not.

    A player customization being available doesn't need lore explanation (as nice as it would be), and a player customization being available does not mean the in-universe lore has changed to accept it until we get actual development of it.

    Case in point -> Wildhammer Dwarves as a customization doesn't mean every single WH clan has now sworn fealty to Bronzebeard Dwarf Kingdom. Sand Trolls as a customization does not mean Sand Trolls we fought are now allied with the Darkspear tribe. Hell, Dark Troll customization does not overwrite that https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Speaker_Ik%27nal this NPC is still the sole surviving Dark Troll in existence (as of BFA!).

    You are welcome to RP your own characters as such or accept others' RP of their characters as such, that has nothing to do with the game's canon for its races where they stand now until it actually becomes canonized either in-game or through game-related media from the WoW devs themselves.
    Semantics. Blood Elves are High Elves. They have continued the story of the race after the events of WC III, while the Alliance defectors stayed with their human masters as good pets. Blood Elves had green eyes for a while because they have lost their Sunwell and had to resort to other means to keep afloat. Then they got their Sunwell restored, and Silvermoon began to restore to at least a part of its former glory.

    You can play High Elf characters now on the Alliance, due to the Void Elves AR and its customisations - but politically you play only a tiny fraction of the race. The majority is still with the Horde.

    Now, the name High Elf of course belongs to the Alliance splinter group now, because they seemingy have chosen to ignore the sacrifices and blood toll paid in the 3rd war and have chosen to forget that the Alliance have let them to die, and even tried to extinguish their survivors. Its now a tainted name.

    Blood Elves are the true Thalassian Elf race. The others are just defectors and traitors. And I hope that Alleria will pay for her hubris by becoming a raid boss, when we get the Void vs. Light expansion - and that we get to kill her.

  17. #26357
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    Semantics. Blood Elves are High Elves. They have continued the story of the race after the events of WC III, while the Alliance defectors stayed with their human masters as good pets. Blood Elves had green eyes for a while because they have lost their Sunwell and had to resort to other means to keep afloat. Then they got their Sunwell restored, and Silvermoon began to restore to at least a part of its former glory.

    You can play High Elf characters now on the Alliance, due to the Void Elves AR and its customisations - but politically you play only a tiny fraction of the race. The majority is still with the Horde.

    Now, the name High Elf of course belongs to the Alliance splinter group now, because they seemingy have chosen to ignore the sacrifices and blood toll paid in the 3rd war and have chosen to forget that the Alliance have let them to die, and even tried to extinguish their survivors. Its now a tainted name.

    Blood Elves are the true Thalassian Elf race. The others are just defectors and traitors. And I hope that Alleria will pay for her hubris by becoming a raid boss, when we get the Void vs. Light expansion - and that we get to kill her.
    Semantics but I can feel the seething in this post with how pedantic it is.

    Always find it interesting how upset people get over others getting additional options to play with.

    Keep waiting on Alleria, you'll get to keep being disappointed and practicing your patience.

  18. #26358
    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    Semantics. Blood Elves are High Elves. They have continued the story of the race after the events of WC III, while the Alliance defectors stayed with their human masters as good pets. Blood Elves had green eyes for a while because they have lost their Sunwell and had to resort to other means to keep afloat. Then they got their Sunwell restored, and Silvermoon began to restore to at least a part of its former glory.

    You can play High Elf characters now on the Alliance, due to the Void Elves AR and its customisations - but politically you play only a tiny fraction of the race. The majority is still with the Horde.

    Now, the name High Elf of course belongs to the Alliance splinter group now, because they seemingy have chosen to ignore the sacrifices and blood toll paid in the 3rd war and have chosen to forget that the Alliance have let them to die, and even tried to extinguish their survivors. Its now a tainted name.

    Blood Elves are the true Thalassian Elf race. The others are just defectors and traitors. And I hope that Alleria will pay for her hubris by becoming a raid boss, when we get the Void vs. Light expansion - and that we get to kill her.
    Yes, and it is the "traitorous seditionists" which kept the name High Elf, and and the main Thalassian group refers to themselves as Blood Elves.

    That's the point. To pretend "High Elf" as a political identity is interchangeable between Horde and Alliance Thalassians is ludicrous, and that's what we have been trying to say.

  19. #26359
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Yes, and it is the "traitorous seditionists" which kept the name High Elf, and and the main Thalassian group refers to themselves as Blood Elves.

    That's the point. To pretend "High Elf" as a political identity is interchangeable between Horde and Alliance Thalassians is ludicrous, and that's what we have been trying to say.
    It is political, but any High Elf who has green, blue or purple eyes who wears the tabard of Silvermoon (or indeed, serves the Sunreavers in Dalaran) is Horde aligned, in/directly or not, and is considered a Blood Elf.

    There's no such thing as a "Horde High Elf."

    Where is this rubbish coming from that we have "Horde High Elves." It's almost as bad as those night elf fans who call Nightborne, the "Horde Night Elves." It's Blood Elves and Nightborne - specifically, as far as these two races go, High Elf and Night Elf are no longer a thing within their respective nations.

    On topic - I would love see more of a union between High Elves, Void Elves and Night Elves. I think the combination of Arcane (High Elf), Void (Void Elf) and Druidism (Night Elf) could lend themselves to a very interesting dynamic between the 3 Alliance elves.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2022-11-07 at 07:32 PM.

  20. #26360
    The High elves might have forgotten that the Alliance """"left them to die"""" (we'll ignore the fact that all Alliance powers were south of the Thandol Span and had their own crisis to deal with, we will also forget that Quel'Thalas was no longer a member state of the Alliance in the Third War), but the Blood elves definitely forgot that the Horde actually tried to kill them in the Second War, and they didn't notice that their capital is named after the orc warmonger who laid waste to their homeland.

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