1. #26821
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Blood Elves don't have control over half of their capital.

    Also, if you're not a High Elf fan, don't click on the High Elf megathread?
    They do control it. The first thing the belf player does is help free it from the wretched running around there. That's part of the intro quests where the belfs are supposed to take control of their homeland so they can be allowed in the Horde. Retaking their city and the surrounding lands is literally the reason why they are allowed in the Horde. Don't talk crap please.

  2. #26822
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    But "scattered Elven tribe" doesn't make sense for High Elves. Void Elves and Nightborne work as "tribes" because they are only 1 tribe each.

    High Elves have the SC, Highvale and potentially more.
    Blood Elves have Scryers, Illidari and potentially more.
    Night Elves have ALOT of Druid tribes and more groups.

    The term doesn't work for the 3 races that most people do care about and have been around for longer.
    I think you're being a bit overly technical with what is more or less just a casual turn of phrase. It's easy to think of the various collections of elves in the same way one considers the disparate troll tribes, for example. The High Elves are one elven "tribe" or group, the Blood Elves another, ditto for the Void Elves, and so on. All of these tribes share basic historical and/or cultural links back to the ancient Kaldorei, as well - since they're all derivations thereof in any case.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  3. #26823
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think you're being a bit overly technical with what is more or less just a casual turn of phrase. It's easy to think of the various collections of elves in the same way one considers the disparate troll tribes, for example. The High Elves are one elven "tribe" or group, the Blood Elves another, ditto for the Void Elves, and so on. All of these tribes share basic historical and/or cultural links back to the ancient Kaldorei, as well - since they're all derivations thereof in any case.
    But in the same breathe though - they're not exactly "scattered" because that would imply that they have no home and they fall under a tribe leader.

    "Tribe" means something different than "race." If Chris had said the Elven Races, then that's clear cut.
    But "tribe"...the SC High Elves are vastly different from the Highvale High Elves.

    Just like the Scryer Blood Elves are vastly different from the Illidari Blood Elves.

  4. #26824
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    But "scattered Elven tribe" doesn't make sense for High Elves. Void Elves and Nightborne work as "tribes" because they are only 1 tribe each.
    I don't follow the logic here. It simply sounds like you are arguing semantics, since any individual Elf group could be considered a tribe. I don't think that is really worth debating the semantics, since it doesn't really matter if they're talking about Void Elves and Nightborne specifically just because someone chooses to interpret the meaning of Tribe that way. The bigger picture is what needs to be considered - Elven tribes uniting to protect the Sunwell.

    And from that context, all Thallasians and their variants have stake in its protection.

    High Elves have the SC, Highvale and potentially more.
    Blood Elves have Scryers, Illidari and potentially more.
    Night Elves have ALOT of Druid tribes and more groups.

    The term doesn't work for the 3 races that most people do care about and have been around for longer.
    Which is why it would be counter intuitive to imply that they would be excluded from the conversation. Are you really considering humoring an Elven Unification scenario that only involves Blood Elves (because of namedrop), Void Elves, and Nightborne (because you consider them Tribes) while excluding the rest based on trivial semantics?

    What Aucald pointed out was already the obvious conclusion to draw from their statements, and arguing the details isn't all that important until we get more information that defines the nuance. The reasonable conclusion is that they are referring to the Thallasian types first and foremost, with a high possibility of including Night Elves and Nightborne, and an undefined inclusion of tertiary groups like the Felblood, Darkfallen or Illidari. Excluding the main Thallasian type Elven factions would be counterintuitive to the information we are already presented with, since it makes very little sense to announce an expansion based on Elven unification only to be specific to Blood Elves and Void Elves and Nightborne, but not High Elves or Night Elves.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2024-04-10 at 01:55 PM.

  5. #26825
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I don't follow the logic here. It simply sounds like you are arguing semantics, since any individual Elf group could be considered a tribe. I don't think that is really worth debating the semantics, since it doesn't really matter if they're talking about Void Elves and Nightborne specifically just because someone chooses to interpret the meaning of Tribe that way. The bigger picture is what needs to be considered - Elven tribes uniting to protect the Sunwell.

    And from that context, all Thallasians and their variants have stake in its protection.



    Which is why it would be counter intuitive to imply that they would be excluded from the conversation. Are you really considering humoring an Elven Unification scenario that only involves Blood Elves (because of namedrop), Void Elves, and Nightborne (because you consider them Tribes) while excluding the rest based on trivial semantics?

    What Aucald pointed out was already the obvious conclusion to draw from their statements, and arguing the details isn't all that important until we get more information that defines the nuance. The reasonable conclusion is that they are referring to the Thallasian types first and foremost, with a high possibility of including Night Elves and Nightborne, and an undefined inclusion of any other possible unmentioned 'tribe' like the Felblood or Illidari. The alternatives of excluding Elven factions wiuld be counterintuitive to the information we are already presented with, since it doesn't make sense to have unification of only Blood Elves and Void Elves and Nightborne, but not High Elves or Night Elves.
    I don't really understand your comment, to be fair

  6. #26826
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    The Horde has access, but that's still not a hub. That's just a place where you don't get attacked by the guards and nothing else, no services, no nothing. And Dalaran was never a faction city. It was introduced as a neutral city and it still is a neutral city.

    So yeah, no facts, just more of those fantasies where you wanna rob the belfs some more.
    Dalaran was Alliance black in Vanilla.

    It's still an Alliance kingdom led by Alliance characters but neutral to the Horde for the greater good.

    You still have access to Bel'Ameth where you shouldnt
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  7. #26827
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I don't follow the logic here. It simply sounds like you are arguing semantics, since any individual Elf group could be considered a tribe. I don't think that is really worth debating the semantics, since it doesn't really matter if they're talking about Void Elves and Nightborne specifically just because someone chooses to interpret the meaning of Tribe that way. The bigger picture is what needs to be considered - Elven tribes uniting to protect the Sunwell.

    And from that context, all Thallasians and their variants have stake in its protection.



    Which is why it would be counter intuitive to imply that they would be excluded from the conversation. Are you really considering humoring an Elven Unification scenario that only involves Blood Elves (because of namedrop), Void Elves, and Nightborne (because you consider them Tribes) while excluding the rest based on trivial semantics?

    What Aucald pointed out was already the obvious conclusion to draw from their statements, and arguing the details isn't all that important until we get more information that defines the nuance. The reasonable conclusion is that they are referring to the Thallasian types first and foremost, with a high possibility of including Night Elves and Nightborne, and an undefined inclusion of tertiary groups like the Felblood, Darkfallen or Illidari. Excluding the main Thallasian type Elven factions would be counterintuitive to the information we are already presented with, since it makes very little sense to announce an expansion based on Elven unification only to be specific to Blood Elves and Void Elves and Nightborne, but not High Elves or Night Elves.
    I was just reading your comment from yesterday and you are trying the same here, your argument is that this is somehow counter intuitive, which makes no sense to me.
    My conclusion, you are not really saying anything here. It feels like trying really hard to counter what has been said, but no one is following your logic here.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2024-04-10 at 02:22 PM.

  8. #26828
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    But in the same breathe though - they're not exactly "scattered" because that would imply that they have no home and they fall under a tribe leader.

    "Tribe" means something different than "race." If Chris had said the Elven Races, then that's clear cut.
    But "tribe"...the SC High Elves are vastly different from the Highvale High Elves.

    Just like the Scryer Blood Elves are vastly different from the Illidari Blood Elves.
    They are "scattered" across Azeroth, however - as in they're not all in one place, as per my previous post. Again, the word "tribe" here is being used more loosely to just describe a collection of inter-related groups, not specifically a tribal structure with a chieftain, or what have you. The word "race" is used similarly in WoW to define playable groups - tauren, for example, aren't a "race" within the Horde, they're a completely different species from a different world than orcs, for example. Similarly, the High Elves of Highvale aren't distinguishable from those in Silver Covenant, beyond belonging to different groups or inhabiting a different region. They're the same people.

    The Illidari are the odd ones out, somewhat, considering that their transformation into partial demons has made them entirely something else. Whether or not they will play any active role in Midnight also remains to be seen, though. I'm thinking they'll likely appear, but probably not prominently.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  9. #26829
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I don't really understand your comment, to be fair
    Do we really want to assume that Blizzard only wanted Void Elves and Nightborne to be unified because they used the term 'tribe'?

    That is purely semantics. Tribe could have any broad application to any and all types of Elves. There is no reason to exclude any Elven faction on a semantic interoretation of the word 'tribe', because the term is not defined as an exclusive term, it is merely an ambiguous one. And process of elimination only really works when definitions are clear and unambiguous, which the term 'Tribe' is not clearly defined when applied to the Elves.

    Ergo, no reason to assume Tribe only applies to Void elf and Nightborne. In context to the announcement, there is no exclusive meaning of the term ''Tribe' (when used to describe the different factions of Elves). It is not meant to be taken literally.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2024-04-10 at 02:33 PM.

  10. #26830
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    I was just reading your comment from yesterday and you are trying the same here. My conclusion, you are not really saying anything here. It feels like trying really hard to counter what has been said, but no one is following your logic here.
    I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about what I'm saying.

    The differences between the elven tribes is big and that includes ones within like the Scryers/Illidari and Highvale/Silver Covenant.
    My question really is - will every single tribe be involved, including those that aren't liked? I don't see the High Elf fanbase wishing for the Highvale Elves to make a grand return, since they are just pale, blonde W3 Night Elves (sworn off magic) so interest in them is quite low.

    Also, are their more scattered tribes like a scattered Quel'dorei tribe in an expanded Quel'Thalas Mountains? A group that fled during the Scourge Invasion and protected themselves...perhaps using magic like those of the ancient Highborne who created Ban'dinoriel?

    There's so much to unpack when it comes to the Elven tribes of the Blood, Night and High Elves.
    For Void Elves and Nightborne, it isn't difficult - yes, you could say "Well what about Felborne Elves?" Come on now, are we really expecting Blizzard to go deep into the politics of the Nightborne, during an expansion in Quel'Thalas? That is wishful thinking.

  11. #26831
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about what I'm saying.

    The differences between the elven tribes is big and that includes ones within like the Scryers/Illidari and Highvale/Silver Covenant.
    My question really is - will every single tribe be involved, including those that aren't liked? I don't see the High Elf fanbase wishing for the Highvale Elves to make a grand return, since they are just pale, blonde W3 Night Elves (sworn off magic) so interest in them is quite low.

    Also, are their more scattered tribes like a scattered Quel'dorei tribe in an expanded Quel'Thalas Mountains? A group that fled during the Scourge Invasion and protected themselves...perhaps using magic like those of the ancient Highborne who created Ban'dinoriel?

    There's so much to unpack when it comes to the Elven tribes of the Blood, Night and High Elves.
    For Void Elves and Nightborne, it isn't difficult - yes, you could say "Well what about Felborne Elves?" Come on now, are we really expecting Blizzard to go deep into the politics of the Nightborne, during an expansion in Quel'Thalas? That is wishful thinking.
    I think you quoted the wrong person.

  12. #26832
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Do we really want to collectively assume that Blizzard intentionally communicates to us that they only want Void Elves and Nightborne to be unified because they used the term 'tribe'?

    That is purely semantics. Tribe could have any broad application to any and all types of Elves. There is no reason to exclude any Elven faction on a semantic interoretation of the word 'tribe', because the term is not defined as an exclusive term, it is merely an ambiguous one. And process of elimination only really works when definitions are clear and unambiguous, which the term 'Tribe' is not clearly defined when applied to the Elves.

    Ergo, no reason to assume Tribe only applies to Void elf and Nightborne. In context to the announcement, there is no exclusive meaning of the term ''Tribe'.
    I'm not saying "tribe" only belongs to Void Elves and Nightborne. "Tribe" is easier to understand for them because they are only one group of Elves, each. They both have their goals and people know what they're about. There's no defective group/s that challenge the main bulk of Horde Nightborne or Alliance Void Elves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    I think you quoted the wrong person.
    No, I meant it for you, because I wanted the person to explain.

  13. #26833
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    .
    Ergo, no reason to assume Tribe only applies to Void elf and Nightborne. In context to the announcement, there is no exclusive meaning of the term ''Tribe'.
    Then what are you arguing about?

    It actually is very confusing were you stand tbh.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I'm not saying "tribe" only belongs to Void Elves and Nightborne. "Tribe" is easier to understand for them because they are only one group of Elves, each. They both have their goals and people know what they're about. There's no defective group/s that challenge the main bulk of Horde Nightborne or Alliance Void Elves.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, I meant it for you, because I wanted the person to explain.
    I see, yes.

  14. #26834
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    They are "scattered" across Azeroth, however - as in they're not all in one place, as per my previous post. Again, the word "tribe" here is being used more loosely to just describe a collection of inter-related groups, not specifically a tribal structure with a chieftain, or what have you. The word "race" is used similarly in WoW to define playable groups - tauren, for example, aren't a "race" within the Horde, they're a completely different species from a different world than orcs, for example. Similarly, the High Elves of Highvale aren't distinguishable from those in Silver Covenant, beyond belonging to different groups or inhabiting a different region. They're the same people.

    The Illidari are the odd ones out, somewhat, considering that their transformation into partial demons has made them entirely something else. Whether or not they will play any active role in Midnight also remains to be seen, though. I'm thinking they'll likely appear, but probably not prominently.
    We'll have to wait and see.
    For me, Void Elves and Nightborne are easier to understand as a "tribe" so, they're involvement feels more absolute. Void Elves as former Sin'dorei outcasts and Nightborne, because Suramar and Silvermoon are joined in marriage.
    There's also no other internal group that goes against the Void Elf norms or Nightborne norms.

    I just worry about Blood elves, High Elves and Night elves. For me, they're more difficult to unpack.

  15. #26835
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    I was just reading your comment from yesterday and you are trying the same here, your argument is that this is somehow counter intuitive, which makes no sense to me.
    My conclusion, you are not really saying anything here. It feels like trying really hard to counter what has been said, but no one is following your logic here.

    You are trying to argue as though the term Scattered Elf Tribe only applies to Elf Groups specifically mentioned by Blizzard, and implying that it may not apply to any other Elf Groups until confirmed.. That doesn't work, since the term is already applied to any Elf group.

    We are not building up a list of possible suspects, we have enough information that puts us in a position to narrow down from the list of known suspects. It's not a matter that the High Elves *might be* united, it's that the High Elves *are subjects of unification until proven otherwise*.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2024-04-10 at 03:48 PM.

  16. #26836
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The premise is simple - Why would Blizzard exclude the Thallasians in an announcement of an expansion that united various Elves, in Quel'tthalas.

    You and Tanaria have presented the argument that 'scattered tribe' is ambiguous to mean anything, and that it's not confirmation for X player races being unified.

    Yet at the same time, any scenario that would exclude sny of the three main Thallasian Elf groups would be counter intuitive to the announcement for Elven unification. The term has a broad implication of applying to all major playable Elf Factions, as well as High Elves who have a direct connection to Quel'thalas and the Sunwell. There is no reason to build up an announcement around these specific points if the division between Blood Elves and Void Elves was intended to be kept around. Does this make sense?

    The reason why you and Tanaria aren't following the logic is because you both are looking at this from a Watsonian view, when I am talking in a broader Doylist view. Blizzard wouldn't say ' unite the scattered Elf Tribes' if they were only intending to talk exclusively about tertiary Elf groups like Darkfallen and Felblood Elves, while ignoring any unification for Blood Elves and Void Elves. That is counter intuitive to the message they present to all fans.
    Your jumping around saying I want to exclude. I just want to know what "tribe" means and if it means more than the groups we already have.

    Tribe is an odd word, which can also suggest more High Elf tribes, than just the Covenant or the Highvales.
    More Blood Elf tribes than just the Scryers and Illidari

    Void elves and Nightborne are just easier to understand because they are just 1 tribe each, with no internal issues going on. (Yeah, Felborne Elves...people who think Nightborne politics will be discussed in Midnight are kidding themselves.)

  17. #26837
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Your jumping around saying I want to exclude. I just want to know what "tribe" means and if it means more than the groups we already have.
    This is kinda what I wanted to know as well. Its an odd word to me and never seen it anywhere else. Hence I speculated, it could mean more as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The premise is simple - Why would Blizzard exclude the Thallasians in an announcement of an expansion that united various Elves, in Quel'tthalas.

    You and Tanaria have presented the argument that 'scattered tribe' is ambiguous to mean anything, and that it's not confirmation for X player races being unified.

    The reason why you and Tanaria aren't following the logic is because you both are looking at this from a Watsonian view, when I am talking in a broader Doylist view. Blizzard wouldn't say ' unite the scattered Elf Tribes' if they were only intending to talk exclusively about tertiary Elf groups like Darkfallen and Felblood Elves, while ignoring any unification for Blood Elves and Void Elves. That is counter intuitive to the message they present to all fans.
    .
    The way chris said it, could also simply be a brainfart as it was kinda odd. It could also mean more then the ones we know. The last being something that is just part of the speculation and I think again with what we know is not a very weird thing to think like that imo. Actually besides Tanaria I have seen this question pop up in other threads as well.

    This was never meant to be exclusive to these groups. Its just that tribes don't feel like he was talking just about the playable elven groups, which again, does not seem to imply void and blood elves only imo. I genuinely want to have more context to that exact sentence. I personally think we do have actual other scattered elven groups that are worth mentioning as I did. The groups who were mentioned all used to be high elves btw. I never said anything about nightborne or kaldorei.

    Anyway, everything I said about void elves before and how their relation is bad right now, could all be part of a buildup is how I see a unification could happen. I don't expect to jump in midnight and start with that straight away either. Its gotta have more to it. I personally see it as a culminating thing, that it worked out for them in the end. None of what I said seems counter intuitive to me, but that could also mean for me that you are hard to follow sometimes, its especially confusing when you actually agree.

    Exactly, but that is precisely what I have been saying the whole time. Its just hard to tell, but pretty much everything we talked about can be considered speculation, besides the obvious bullet points, which we are just discussing.

    Anyhow, No bad feeling, just confused.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You are trying to argue as though the term Scattered Elf Tribe only applies to Elf Groups specifically mentioned by Blizzard
    This is exactly what I was not saying.. not any elf group (tribe now?) was mentioned to begin with. Our discussion was partly about other subgroups as well. I really don't know how you came to this conclusion. I used words like 'might'or possibly' because we don't know what this unification precisely means or how it will play out. If there will be a unification at all is not what this is about.

    --------------

    So I took another look at the interviews and I wasn't aware of this. Seems like something we will discover hopefully pretty early on in TWW.

    With how we're all coming together in TWW, are we going to see a realignment of who's working with who? That is, over the course of the narrative, will hostile groups be working together?
    Previously mentioned the elves coming together.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2024-04-10 at 04:33 PM.

  18. #26838
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    So I took another look at the interviews and I wasn't aware of this. Seems like something we will discover hopefully pretty early on in TWW.

    With how we're all coming together in TWW, are we going to see a realignment of who's working with who? That is, over the course of the narrative, will hostile groups be working together?
    Previously mentioned the elves coming together.
    I'd love to see the Alliance/Void Elves work to secure an allegiance with a lost group of mountainous High Elves, in a Quel'Thalas expanded. A group lead by a high ranked High Elf First Magistrix, where they later join the Alliance. Perhaps the sister of Zendarin Windrunner, Alleria's cousin.

    Likewise, the Horde/Blood Elves work to secure an allegiance with a rebel group of Felblood Elves, in the unused area of Quel'Thalas. Lead by Felblood Grand Warlock and later, join the Horde.
    That way, Alliance and Horde can bare witness to Thalassian Arcana and why Blood Elves and High Elves separated prior to TBC and both factions get a Thalassian based questline, which is in line with the old ways of both Quel'dorei and Sin'dorei.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2024-04-10 at 04:57 PM.

  19. #26839
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I'm not saying "tribe" only belongs to Void Elves and Nightborne. "Tribe" is easier to understand for them because they are only one group of Elves, each. They both have their goals and people know what they're about. There's no defective group/s that challenge the main bulk of Horde Nightborne or Alliance Void Elves.
    Because they aren't referring to them in terms of subgroups, but as the group themselves.

    Like Forest Trolls are a Tribe. It doesn't matter if we are talking Revantusk or Zul'jin's group or whatever other offshoots of Forest trolls there would be, they are considered one tribe that is distinct from Jungle Trolls, and Island Trolls, and Sand Trolls, etc. If there is talks of uniting the tribes, it is in reference to uniting these groups of Trolls together, not just uniting the scattered subgroups within each type of Troll Race.

    The term is a catchall for a certain racial group. It can be a clan or a tribe or a kingdom, they are quite interchangeable. That is the context here. It is a parallel of the Council of Three Hammers
    Last edited by Triceron; 2024-04-10 at 04:59 PM.

  20. #26840
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because they aren't referring to them in terms of subgroups, but as the group themselves.

    Like Forest Trolls are a Tribe. It doesn't matter if we are talking Revantusk or Zul'jin's group or whatever other offshoots of Forest trolls there would be, they are considered one tribe that is distinct from Jungle Trolls, and Island Trolls, and Sand Trolls, etc. If there is talks of uniting the tribes, it is in reference to uniting these groups of Trolls together, not just uniting the scattered subgroups within each type of Troll Race.

    The term is a catchall for a certain racial group. It can be a clan or a tribe or a kingdom, they are quite interchangeable. That is the context here. It is a parallel of the Council of Three Hammers
    My point still stands.

    Could be more tribes.

    See my above comment. Could be a Quel'dorei group in the mountains of North Eastern Quel'Thalas, led by Alleria's Magistrix cousin. (Join the Alliance)
    A group of Felblood Elves to the South, in hiding in the unused area of Quel'Thalas, lead by a Grand Warlock, joins the Horde.

    Tribes is a very broad term, so of course this warrants more tribes of potential High Elves and Blood Elves specifically.

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