Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Alanar]

personaly, and especially after those new draenei showed up in alpha, i don't think we need high elves as an real "allied" race. Simply make blood elves/draenei neutral like pandaren/dracthyr. gameplay wise, they have the exact same abilities as the current blood elves/draenei. They just start at the allied race level of 10, and get at max level the heritage armor of the original race, but in a different color scheme.

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i don't completely remember the story, but the highborne are treated and refered to as highborne, and not just night elves. At least during Cata and MoP. After that they seemed to be forgotten. Even though they would have been super relevant for Legion. It is one of many missed things.

I am talking about in game. What you are as a night elf mage, doesnt change, cata brought newly trained mages. But again, Being a Highborne was a title, that is from a past glory, that no longer excists. There was enough about them in Legion, just not the fraction of them that joined the night elves in cata. They have a hut In Amirdrassil niw, which is there latest and only relevance.

My idea is that, highborne, being long forgotten literally, has been simply overshadowed by all other more relevant elven tribes over the years. The arcane vibe has been completely taken over by the Nightborne for example. Then we also have the blood elves, void elves and night elves. Until we see something from them, they are simply not relevant. It is what it is.

[Mace]

it's funny that people who argue on both sides, see my comment as an attack on them. Which just proves my point. There is no right or wrong answer, just different views and values.

I didn't see you comment as an attack at all. It helped me make a point about how absurd this all is.

I've been tracking responses to high elves for a long time. I no longer get it, the vehemence, the opposition every step of the way from horde blood elf fans for them getting anything.

I don't understand their vehemence. I t's j ust a game, and a lot of players want it, I don't see what's so bad about it they have to go to such lengthss and such relentelss opposition every time.

Blood elves are not that cute.. they're not real either


I'm called delusional , toled it's impossible, or implausible - just ofr saying high elves can or should return to Silvermoon and share it or that night elves should have Suramar as th eir capital? All the arguments about how they don't belong their anymore,, "oh it was a long time ago", oh they betrayed thir land hterefore deserve to die2 , "oh it's the horde's" - I mean seriously, what is so bad about high elves being playable on the alliance or having Quel'thalas , their original home as their home.


THe only thing I can think of is because blizzard made those cities horde, and horde fans want it to be exclusively horde.. but improbable?

Blood elves switched from Alliance to horde, I'm sure their city can switch again, or become neutral I don't see what's so bad about htis or how the end of hte world ill come for them.

[Tanaria]

I'm called delusional , toled it's impossible, or implausible - just ofr saying high elves can or should return to Silvermoon and share it or that night elves should have Suramar as th eir capital? All the arguments about how they don't belong their anymore,, "oh it was a long time ago", oh they betrayed thir land hterefore deserve to die2 , "oh it's the horde's" - I mean seriously, what is so bad about high elves being playable on the alliance or having Quel'thalas , their original home as their home.

Because it is delusional to even think that Blood Elf culture and Nightborne culture in the here and now, should be compromised just for the Alliance.

Night Elves have Bel'ameth and Amirdrassil and neither Tyrande nor Shandris have ever been written as wanting to reclaim Suramar. Hell, Tyrande has been to Suramar twice, since the Sundering and she left it. The first time was when she joined in hunting down Illidan and the second time was during Legion. Neither times does she express any interest in the Nightborne. And don't come at me with "But muh writing was changed." Yeah, who cares?! Nobody cares because it's not canon. Nightborne are fully Horde and this is further evidenced in Midnight when it's the Nightborne that guard the Sunfury Spire in the Horde-only part of Silvermoon

Blood Elves and Silvermoon have changed. High Elves don't fit there anymore. Fel Magic, however scrutinised still has it's place and the Illidari are also working with the Silvermoon Warlocks. High Elves don't have a place there.
The entire of Silvermoon is a Blood Elf City. No High Elf. No Void Elf. No Night Elf. This is the homeland of the Blood Elves and blizzard are making that extremely clear to the players. This is Blood Elf culture. Blood Elf lifestyle. Blood Elves since the Sunwell was restored. Their is no place for High Elves in that lifestyle because Blood Elves have changed and Silvermoon, changed with it.

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Blood elves switched from Alliance to horde, I'm sure their city can switch again, or become neutral I don't see what's so bad about htis or how the end of hte world ill come for them.

It won't do. It never will now. Blizzard have made their intentions clear. Alliance will now NEVER have an undeserved right to full access of Silvermoon. It will always be:
3/3 Horde
2/3 Neutral

Alliance will be settling with and will be happy with Silverglade Refuge and Windrunner Spire.

[Mace]

Mace, your big problem is that you don’t understand the lore when it comes to the Elves and you don’t understand it because you don’t WANT to understand it. What do I mean? Here’s what I mean…

You want to see all Elves as one entity, anything and anyone that used to be Night Elf as all united and anything that used to be High Elf as all united. But it doesn’t work that way.

In Warcraft lore, races can have political divisions that lead to geopolitical divides/separate countries in the world. The first Elf political divide that led to a geopolitical divide came after War of the Ancients, with Elves led by Tyrande and Malfurion naively believing they could somehow stop the Burning Legion from returning if they just outlawed mage practice. A faction of Elves vehemently opposed these changes and for that they were banished, leading them on a long voyage until they made their way to their new home that they called Quel’thalas. Those Elves that didn’t get banished remained Night Elves, but those that were banished renamed themselves High Elves in reference to the old Highborne cast.

Firstly PA, just because I don't want the status quo, doesn't mean I don't understand the dynamic. I've been with the franchise quite a while and have sene it change several times, I know what I like and after all that's happened, said and done, I also no what I'd prefer.

Things move on, the current state of the elves is warped, it's entirely in existence because of the horde and alliance faction divide, just like the faction conflict feels so un-natural and quite forced just so we can have horde and alliance on opposite side so does the many conflicts between the races. It lacks harmony and the way they've done it feels rubbishy.

Ypu can have elven unity and still have two factions friend, you don't have to have them bite each others heads off.

They intentionally deepened the divide on the elves to facilitate the faction conflict.. not because this was good writing or made sense, but because it was the gameplay mechanic they were dead set on maintaining on the early days only to drop it when the horde became overwhelmingly popular and just opened everything to a faction being able to do it and then later eventually to cross faction everything /roll eyes.

If you can't understand why the lore has taken certain directions, then you're not seeing or haven't factored in what happens behind the scenes and why such curious and odd things happen.


You may like it, but it broke my immersion yonks ago. And while they created plausible reasons for x and y to happen, many of those were not good ones in my opinion, the story did not become more interesting, it became disjointed and the factions lost their meaning, and nothing was done to fix that.

YOu may not realise it, but lore was not a priority, for the development or things would have been handled much differently even if it kept only two playable factions.

So here we are.

Of all the political divides that you’re most willing to accept, this divide seems to be the one you respect the most with you reserving certain spots for Night Elves and certain spots for High Elves. But you are completely opposed to recognizing any other geopolitical splits and all seems to stem from your desire for Elves to be more unified. Guess what? Blizzard has long disagreed with you and it all started in Warcraft 3, the very point in time that they revealed to the public anything about Night Elf lore.

Here are the other geopolitical Elf divides you can’t acknowledge. There’s two divides you don’t recognize.

High Elves and Blood Elves ARE a political divide which resulted in a geopolitical divide. The political divide was the product of various decisions back when they were all High Elves. The first of those decisions came when a portion of High Elves decided to move to Quel’Danil Lodge in Hinterlands, gradually weaning themselves off of magical addiction in a tranquil area with their Wildhammer Dwarf allies. The second decision that led to the later Blood Elf/High Elf divide came at the end of the Second War. After the Second War, King Anasterian had the High Elves of Quel’Thalas leave the Alliance because of the causalities suffered by the Horde. A portion of High Elf society disagreed with this decision and left to live in Alliance cities, primarily Dalaran which many High Elves helped create and which had lots of magical reserves. The two decisions I just described ignited a geopolitical divide after the Scourge Invasion on Quel’thalas. Those Elves that stayed in Quel’thalas and survived the invasion were suffering from a deadly withdrawal with Scourge and Amani threatening to wipe them out. These Elves decided to rename themselves Blood Elves in honor and remembrance of their fallen kin. At this point in time there is only a political divide between Elves that stayed in Quel’thalas and those that left.

The following events caused this political divide to widen into a geopolitical divide as well. The new leader of Quel’thalas, Prince Kael’Thas, assigned Lor’themar Theron as Regent Lord and sought out the help of the Alliance, but the Alliance at the time was under the command of Garithos who held a grudge against the Elves of Quel’thalas for leaving the Alliance. Garithos put Kael’Thas and his troop on nearly impossible missions and during one such mission an overwhelmed Kael’Thas accepted Naga aid. Garithos was outraged, viewing this as a betrayal, and set Kael’Thas and his troop for execution in Dalaran. Dalaran Elves and Alliance forces passively stood by as this happened, refusing to intervene. But the Naga that helped Kael’Thas returned, broke them out of prison, and with a small portal traveled to Outlands to get assistance from Illidan in curing the Blood Elves of their magical addiction. Illidan said that there was no cure but that their addiction could be satiated by extracting mana from living things, otherwise known as mana tapping. Kael’Thas had one of his Magi, Rommath return to Quel’thalas with this knowledge along with Fel crystals and a Naaru. Rommath returned and taught mana tapping, but a portion of Blood Elves opposed the practice. For that reason Lor’themar exiled those Elves for fear he couldn’t lead a divided people. Those exiled Elves relocated to Quel’Lithien Lodge in Eastern Plaguelands. After this happened, Sylvanas, the former Ranger General of Quel’thalas, sent Forsaken aid to the Blood Elves to help fight off the Scourge, and she argued for the Horde to admit the Blood Elves in. Thrall and Cairne came to Quel’thalas for peace talks. Lor’themar accepted as time was running out for Quel’thalas and no one else but the Forsaken and Horde came to assist. Thrall and Cairne were honored to help out another face facing extinction and extended the hand of aid. Lorthemar accepted. After that, the Blood Elves weren’t formally admitted until they proved themselves and this came in the form of defeating Dar’khan Drathir. At this point, the political divide between High Elves and Blood Elves became a geopolitical divide too since High Elves out of choice chose the Alliance over their fellow Quel’thalas Elves.

Night Elves and Nightborne ARE a political divide which resulted from a geopolitical divide. After the War of the Ancients, Night Elves led by Tyrande and Malfurion didn’t just outlaw mage practice for thousands of years. They also cut contact with any places that used to be Mage favoring under Azshara’s rule. One of the areas they cut off contact to was Suramar City, because it was a Mage practicing city under Azshara’s rule and during the War of the Ancients they cut themselves off from the world to save their city. At the same time though, Elves in Suramar city were unaware how Elves fared outside the city as they remained in the protective arcane barrier cut off from sunlight, moonlight, and other Elves. These Elves renamed themselves Nightborne to reflect this lifestyle they adopted. At this point in time, there is only a geopolitical divide. Plain and simple.

The geopolitical divide could have been mended but it wasn’t. When the Burning Legion returned during the Legion expansion, the then ruler of Nightborne cooperated with the Legion to save their city. Nightborne under Thalyssra rebelled, were cut off from the city’s magic supply, fell into lethal magical withdrawal, and were aided by an individual and various groups. They were aided by Valewalker Farodin working in his individual capacity as he helped cure the Nightborne of their addiction; at NO POINT did Farodin say or imply he was with the Darnassian faction of Elves. In addition to Farodin, Alliance and Horde adventurers, a large force of Blood Elves, and more moderate forces of Night Elves and High Elves assisted in defeating Elisande and taking back the city. At the start of the conflict, Tyrande being the Darnassian leader, who remembered how Suramar City abandoned her in the War of the Ancients, dismissed Thalyssra as someone who might betray in the future. But that didn’t happen, Elisande was defeated, and the Nightborne under Thalyssra reclaimed the city. After this incident, the Nightborne were ready to join the larger geopolitical world and Thalyssra thought that the Night Elves would be a natural fit. But the Night Elves didn’t come, prioritizing their fallout after the Burning of Teldrassil. Instead, it was Lady Liadrin that came; she was of the Blood Elves that dedicated a larger fighting force during the campaign against Elisande. The Blood Elves sympathized with the Nightborne as their story of being addicted to magic and having their leader turn to the Burning Legion deeply mirrored the Blood Elves’ story. Lady Liadrin invited Thalyssra to the Blood Elf capital and after witnessing the strength and independence the Blood Elves had achieved under the Horde the Nightborne officially joined the Horde thereby cementing the geopolitical divide that was previously created and creating a political divide as well.

See what I’m saying? You don’t want to acknowledge for the Blood Elves or the Nightborne that there are political and geopolitical divides. These races are like countries and countries do not always stay united. The story you’ve always wanted where every Elf is unified at the hip is NOT the story of Warcraft and has NEVER BEEN the story of Warcraft.

Divides were created and exacerbated they can be removed or diminished significantly too. you only beat a line for so long in a continuous story before it gets old. The foundation of Warcraft was never elves fighting each other or having permanent internal conflicts that do not make that much sense after how the story has progressed, I can list quite a few off the top of my head.

At this moment of time it's just so warped, all to preserve something that isn't worth preserving because it's lost meaning. When the horde was as it was in WC3 and the earlier version of WC1 and 2, it made sense for a great faction conflict and also for factions to have a division. This is why Night elves were their own faction, as were the Undead, and the Illidari were forming theirs - mixing them up all in to the same melting pot just like that made no sense and to this day, is rubbish, then randomly adding races to each?

The biggest problem was blood elves joining hte horde - you could have created a new monster faction for blood elves to live in, but the horde on the back drop of their past with those same elves makes those elves look stupid, immature and weak, or at least how they wrote it - and why Alleria's decision was a surprise to me, because it made a lot of sense. Also their presence in the horde destroys the difference between the alliance and the horde, at least in the manner they kept the blood elves. They basically created a perfect alliance race on the horde and thus shattered their old divisions which they cracked in classic by having the Forsaken join the horde.


So we move on from there, given how things have gone, well the damage is done, but you can significantly improve things or guide them round, and I think elven unity handled the right way is quite good.

I know what would excite me, and I am able to look at this from a perspective removed from having an immutable law of factions must hate and fight each other as a core. all the races are different, and the core of the Alliance and the Horde are actually the Orcs and the Humans, not hte High elves and the blood elves, or the Night elves and the Thalassian elves - original Warcraft did not have the elves as enemies to one another, so creating this mountain undermine mines them and their characters in so many ways, at least hte way they've done them.

High elves do not work on the horde, the blood elves they needed and seemed to initially start with, they changed into high elves.. but we are here, so take the elves out of the equation, let them be like the Dracthyr , Pandas and Earthen, - a powerful entity with their own politics and goals that are independent of being fuelled by the horde and alliance politics even though player character remain in them.


This is quite plausible, to do, give the good ending that the faction divide of wow has extended long beyond recognition. Because the elves are split across the two playable faction and you continue to insist horde and alliance hate each other, is why we haven't seen the elves come together finally. No other reason, it's a great story that can have a nice end.

Doesn't mean the elves have no conflict and no intricacy, there is more than enough fuel for a lots of dynamics between the various groups within the elven nations and various elven factions to continuously be interesting without having such a divide. Or can you not think of ways elves would still be jostling without crossing the line of attacking one another inside their home?

Can you not see elves caring enough about Quel'thalas to forbid fighting each other despite different political friends and raising the value of their life and protection of their Sunwell above having friendship with the horde and the alliance. And even in that state are you in capable of seeing that it doesn't mean every elf group will get along with one another, they would be difference between each faction and within each fact in there would be differences that generate conflicts and lots of interesting situations that can happen , without breaking the peace, not to mention a new situation can later arise that shatters that peace too.

And as for the Night elves? they have even less reason to fight each other. The lore has seen them healing the wounds of their past, solve their magical addiction crisis, removed the need for them to be in an endless long vigil or in total isolation in a hidden city or shielded one and now can protect or begin the gradual restoration of their civilization, their worship and the various pursuits of their orders. Some night elves would clearly be restoring what was great about their civilization and dying. Some would restore their religion of Elune which endured and remained a guiding light in diverse situations the night elves faced - whether as a civilization or in Long vigil, while some are dedicated to nature and healing it - all have work to do, as their race and people are nearly extinct, why the hell should having human or orc friends on opposite factions stop them from working together so they don't die out and finally get to live again.

Or do you think that the elves need the threat of the Legion to exist when they have a 5,000 original foundation core and reason for living before the Legion and hubris tore that away. Why can they not return to properly living and does that mean there will be no differences or no conflicts? They would brush against other groups and while they can have perfect harmony, the three main branches of: the arcane wielding civilization holders, the Order of Elune spiritual leaders and the Guardians of nature Druidic natural world protectors all have highly distinct and different objectives that aren't mutually exclusive which is why peace and unity is possible but still require an effort to ensure that happens which is where conflict can be generated.

however the elves don't need infighting to have conflict if you haven't noticed. We've done enough infighting for now, there are enough challenges and enough reasons to still be active in a ton of battles that do not have to involve internal strife on a tribal scale.

so I really don't see how elven unity can be problematic or antithetical to Warcraft. Unless you think I mean elven unity to mean everyone is completely holding hands in completely unity and having absolute peace - such can never be the case unless everyone is the same or willing to put that goal above all ensuring their differences don't lead to conflict.

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@Past Analysis I think the bottom line is PD, it's not my Warcraft anymore, just like currently the versions of Star wars and star trek are not my Star wars nor my Star trek.. saying that it doesn't mean i don't enjoy some of the current stuff.. I loved the addition of the Nightborne, the Dracthyr, the Worgen, the modified Draenei, the Haranir and Earthen were all good choices.

I liked how they did Suramar, and loved the art of the Shadowlands quite a lot thought the story was.. meh.

Even in Star Wars, I enjoyed the sequels even though I was quite disappointed by them, I thought they rehashed the original pretty much only to gender swap - so while the story was fun to watch, it wasn't captivating, it didn't make me excited at all for Star wars or want to be into star wars, I haven't watched any of those movies more than once, whereas the pre-quels and the originals I have watched I think over 5-10 times each.

As for Star Trek, same thing, I enjoyed all the earlier stuff up to Enterprise a lot, lots of fave memories, but while I do watch it occasionally I can barely stand Strange new worlds - it just seems too political social agenda constructed and in a bad way, making it hard to enjoy anything, though there are occasional episodes I liked. I loved Star Trek Picard season 1 (up to the last episode which just ruined it..like WTC and Season 3 which I felt was amazing, felt like a Star Trek movie rather than a series, but definitely was into that. I loved Star Trek Discovery though, really liked it, but it didn't' feel Star treky, the cadence was very different, and too much focus on the 2-4 main characters, in the 5 seasons I watched, I can barely remember any of the crew members, and trill character was just way out there, I felt I was really been "preached" too rather than exploring with, and all about socio political stuff of the times, so it felt off, really off. I feel they ignored most of the crew unlike traditional star trek series that the bridge crew was explored, and the only ones they focused on where those who had DEI value - still I did like the adventure a lot as an action story, felt more star warsy than star trekky, which was why I had hopes for Strange new worlds, but hte set up of strange new worlds it's just so jarringly different from the original, and I'm not talking tech and art, I'm talking the ethos, culture, morality everything is so far removed from the original series, how can you hope to have continuity accepted? Lower Decks was crazy fun, I did not take it seriously at all, and because of that, I was able to enjoy it, would I watch it again like serious Star Trek? No, am I more into Star trek because of them ? No.. I was not excited enough about any of them (apart from Discovery) to want to even bother to watch them on release, and have only watched them much later. but for lesser entertainment it was entertaining.

Same with Disney Star wars where I have only really liked Andor and Mando Season 1-2. Bobba Fett was just a joke to me, awful, development of the character. Obi-wan was like WTF? He was so lame then suddenly got so good for no reason, and Vader was too inconsistent, he could use the force so powerful but had such a joke of a fight.. and wtf the was with little Leia, Obi Wan never met her, why was she even there? Worse was how dead beat they made Obi-wan , flashbacks of Luke in the sequel came to mind, and I just thought, awful, totally the worng way to go about this.. but this is how I feel about the elves in Warcraft too and the handling of the factions.


Still I understand things change, and not just stories developing, but they have changed the entire basis of many of these IPs, rather than preserved them for what they were and released completely new things to do "new culture" stuff with. It's not that I don't understand what is going on, it's that I don't like it much at all and disagree with it. It's made me far less into all these things than I use to be.

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Because it is delusional to even think that Blood Elf culture and Nightborne culture in the here and now, should be compromised just for the Alliance.

Wellt hat is called having a deisre and an imagination, if that's delusional, then anything not real is completley delusional.

Just because you think it won't happen or is implausible doesn't mean that.

It won't do. It never will now. Blizzard have made their intentions clear. Alliance will now NEVER have an undeserved right to full access of Silvermoon. It will always be:
3/3 Horde
2/3 Neutral

Alliance will be settling with and will be happy with Silverglade Refuge and Windrunner Spire.

And if it does, what will you do?

[Tanaria]

Wellt hat is called having a deisre and an imagination, if that's delusional, then anything not real is completley delusional.

Just because you think it won't happen or is implausible doesn't mean that.

And if it does, what will you do?

Well, we know it won't because Quel'Thalas is becoming a major questhub with Silvermoon and it's as Blizzard marketed the zone, which your denial over:
"The homeland of the Blood Elves."

It's a Blood Elf paradise. Everything within is just solely about Blood Elves, minus the Windrunner Village and Spire as well as the Silverglade Refuge.

And where Silvermoon is not quite "Blood Elf" it's Horde. So, your in a lose-lose situation here.

And to have a desire over the Horde Elf locations is just silly. What needs to happen is that the Alliance Elves are changed in a way which is different from Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei.
The Night Elves have done that...Void Elves do it and High Elves might get their chance now...but Blood Elves = Silvermoon and Quel'Thalas. That's how it was marketed and hell; they did an entire segment, purely on Blood Elves. No other Elves...just Blood Elves.

[Triceron]

I didn't see you comment as an attack at all. It helped me make a point about how absurd this all is.

That's because there is no true consistency between what is a race of its own, and what is not. In the lore, just choosing a new shirt color constitutes a new subfaction. In the game, the devs pick and choose what is playable on a whim, with no adherence to lore precedents or common logic.

If it is absurd, it's because the game is being developed on whims and fancy. This creates ambiguity which allows for discussion of the implausible being possible, because it can be. There is no common logic for subraces to be folded back into the original race any more than say having Forsaken be 'Human' again. It could happen, and even if it did it would just be a customization option.

[Alanar]

.
And to have a desire over the Horde Elf locations is just silly. What needs to happen is that the Alliance Elves are changed in a way which is different from Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei.
The Night Elves have done that...Void Elves do it and High Elves might get their chance now...but Blood Elves = Silvermoon and Quel'Thalas. That's how it was marketed and hell; they did an entire segment, purely on Blood Elves. No other Elves...just Blood Elves.

It is silly to even think otherwise. It has nothing to do with gatekeeping that seems to be said indirectly. This has everything to do with wanting to see the void elves and night else do it differently. Same case for high elves or anything that is already pressent. Its way more interesting to have the night elves and void elves have their own thing going for them and make that unique to them. I never understood wanting what the horde has or vice versa. What is the point if everything is the same? You wanr to roll ally foe this and horde for that in a perfect world. A reason to roll either.

To think anything other then this IS in fact blood elf lands, is just playing dumb at this point. Every marketing move so far about Silvermoon is about the blood elves. This is their area.

[elbleuet]

Let the blood elves keep Silvermoon
I mean there’s too much red and too many Horde symbols anyway. Silverglade Refuge and a restored Windrunner Spire would be perfect.

Windrunner spire is absolutely gorgeous and stunning.

Back in TBC, the Alliance had no presence there, so it’s already a huge victory for high elf fans to have most of the city neutral and a foothold in Quel’Thalas.

And the blood elf player base needs to be satisfied as well.

[Tanaria]

It is silly to even think otherwise. It has nothing to do with gatekeeping that seems to be said indirectly. This has everything to do with wanting to see the void elves and night else do it differently. Same case for high elves or anything that is already pressent. Its way more interesting to have the night elves and void elves have their own thing going for them and make that unique to them. I never understood wanting what the horde has or vice versa. What is the point if everything is the same? You wanr to roll ally foe this and horde for that in a perfect world. A reason to roll either.

To think anything other then this IS in fact blood elf lands, is just playing dumb at this point. Every marketing move so far about Silvermoon is about the blood elves. This is their area.

I can't understand the upset. We're in Blood Elf lands...why would anyone think or indeed, convince themselves, we're not going to see much in the way of Blood Elf action? I mean, Blizzard did a whole segment just on the Blood Elves and Quel'Thalas as their own joint things. At this point, as Gordon Ramsay would say, "your in denial!"

The difference between Quel'Thalas and the Broken Isles is that the Broken Isles did NOT belong to the Alliance Night Elves
Quel'Thalas DOES belong to the Horde Blood Elves.

Mace has always wanted Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei to be changed, evicted and almost wrote out of the story, just so Alliance Elves benefit...yet, to me, everything he wants to see happen to the former, he can't stand seeing on the latter, which makes me believe that he doesn't truly like his own idea. He does the worst job of any sales representative.

[Mace]

I can't understand the upset. We're in Blood Elf lands...why would anyone think or indeed, convince themselves, we're not going to see much in the way of Blood Elf action? I mean, Blizzard did a whole segment just on the Blood Elves and Quel'Thalas as their own joint things. At this point, as Gordon Ramsay would say, "your in denial!"

The difference between Quel'Thalas and the Broken Isles is that the Broken Isles did NOT belong to the Alliance Night Elves
Quel'Thalas DOES belong to the Horde Blood Elves.

Mace has always wanted Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei to be changed, evicted and almost wrote out of the story, just so Alliance Elves benefit...yet, to me, everything he wants to see happen to the former, he can't stand seeing on the latter, which makes me believe that he doesn't truly like his own idea. He does the worst job of any sales representative.

Its's not an upset, how can you view it even as an upset. Can you not understand many people who love high elves want to see the High elves back in Silvermoon -

Hello? Race you loved, city you loved got destroyed, and most of your people died, you didn't adopt the new mentality, but loved the original, you're displaced, your place is in ruins - it is not un-natural or absurd to want to see it fixed and move back in.

Seriously.. why is it absurd to want to see night elves living in Suramar or High elves living in Silvermoon.

This is not some existential debate it really is simple. What is there not to understand. Repeating that Silvermoon is blood elven 100 times and blood elves are horde 1000 times isn't going to change this desire for anyone who loved or cared for the high elves originally. Also the very fact that Silvermoon changed, and the blood elves went horde is the exact hope those who prefer it to swing the other way or accommodate the other faction have. Because the impossible happened when they whimsically took the blood elves horde, so they can do the exact same thing again.

furthermore, by nature the blood elves as they are align better with the alliance they were built and based on to accommodate, so it's always going to feel like a better fit to many people aware of the start and aware of how Warcraft was originally set.

this is in the core of Warcraft, and while they can change this, those changes aren't going to stop those desires.

[elbleuet]

Yeah, the Nightborne joining the Horde always felt silly and forced.
The Horde just needed their own purple elves, and that’s all it was.
The Night Elves never wronged them. Tyrande was a bit upset, sure, but that’s it. The Night Elves literally helped the Nightborne when they were in dire need.

And then, just a few years later, the Nightborne, now part of the Horde, helped burn Teldrassil to the ground. That’s pure nonsense.

The Nightborne should’ve stayed neutral.

[Mace]

That's because there is no true consistency between what is a race of its own, and what is not. In the lore, just choosing a new shirt color constitutes a new subfaction. In the game, the devs pick and choose what is playable on a whim, with no adherence to lore precedents or common logic.

If it is absurd, it's because the game is being developed on whims and fancy. This creates ambiguity which allows for discussion of the implausible being possible, because it can be. There is no common logic for subraces to be folded back into the original race any more than say having Forsaken be 'Human' again. It could happen, and even if it did it would just be a customization option.

There is both no consistency and no depth, they don't even spend the time to build on this.

Take night elves for example, their core was originally Elune, the Well of Eternity and the stars and there was a culture based on this that transcended whether you were an arcane fanatic, nature fanatic or ardent priestess because they all lived within their civilization. After the sundering, the status quo didn't change that core identity at all, the priesthood continued, the mages practised druidism instead, what changed was the means they did things with and the amenities of life. No longer able to depend on advanced tech (i.e. magic), they made do without and developed new ways to live within their new constraints, but their original star loving , essence never changed. Their moonwells, sacred regard for the Well, love of the stars and Elune continued, but what was this culture and how did it operate? What even is the creed of the Order of Elune?

non-existent, never shown, never gone into. Night elves have been around a lot, but we hardly nkow their true culutre. I t's been easy to show the druidic side becuase much of classic era after the initial racial levelling lands only showed the druid class and that was easy to show - love nature, protect animals and trees, punish Nesingwary hunters i.e. D.E.H.T.A - how often have you even seen the hunting side of druids? the deadly cat or bear? or the moon/star arcane wielding balance druid balancing nature and the arcane in lore? or what they stand for ? or what it means and how it applies? even it's effect in druidic culture?

it's non-existent, because there is no depth, what do these even mean,we still have the basic statements to go on but little to show. Suramar actually showed lifestyle in a night elf pre-sundering city, it was entirely based on the Suramar in the Well of Eternity book and how the night elves are like in that culture which continues - so we see a lot about that side of their culture. but there is still a lot we don't see or understand, we see behaviour but true culture? We still don't see much of it. The star culture, Elune's role, they love hte arcane and are hooked on it, but where is the core?

it's never really been shown, but it's been stated.


This is how it is for nearly every race, it is unbelievable how little we actually know about them, how little we delve into them. We are hsown the politics and the conflict a lot, but what they are? seeing htem properly, It doens't show in the quest oreitnated game that really doesn't explore much, and far too many of the books don't go into that detail or flesh it out preferring instead to just stick to the objective - the books don't even make the game world come alive, they literraly describe it as in game, not properly adjusting for a more realistic setting. you have to go back to Jeff Grubb's the Last Guardian to actually read a properly fleshed out realistic (relatively speaking) version of Azeroth..

With no base, I guess verythign can chagne.. or basically the identity of the raec is tied up entirely in their visual presentation rather than thier actual lore, which is why people mis-understand night elves so easily, and look at places like Suramar and Zin'Azshari and cannot relate them to the night elves those places are based on. Because hte identity is entirely visual.

[Tanaria]

Its's not an upset, how can you view it even as an upset. Can you not understand many people who love high elves want to see the High elves back in Silvermoon -

I couldn't give a rats behind what they're feelings are, to be quite honest because Silvermoon is the home of the Sin'dorei and the Blood Elves and that is Blizzard's desire.

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by nature the blood elves as they are align better with the alliance they were built and based on to accommodate, so it's always going to feel like a better fit to many people aware of the start and aware of how Warcraft was originally set.
.

So what happens to the Sin'dorei? Because your currently a failure at selling this story to us and the Blood elf fanbase.

What you want to see happen to the Sin'dorei is something that you hate when it comes to the Nelfs and Helfs. So why should I entertain your idiotic proposals, when you hate them, yourself but you blame the Blood Elf fanbase for it. It's all your fault, Mace. Not mine..

[Enrif]

Yeah, the Nightborne joining the Horde always felt silly and forced.
The Horde just needed their own purple elves, and that’s all it was.
The Night Elves never wronged them. Tyrande was a bit upset, sure, but that’s it. The Night Elves literally helped the Nightborne when they were in dire need.

And then, just a few years later, the Nightborne, now part of the Horde, helped burn Teldrassil to the ground. That’s pure nonsense.

The Nightborne should’ve stayed neutral.

i think all legion allied races have ample ground to be neutral.

nightborne would give horde purple elves, while still being on good terms with nightelves
highmountain would give alliance cows, while still being on good terms with mulgore tauren
lightforged would give horde aliens, while still being on good term with draenei

[Tanaria]

Seriously.. why is it absurd to want to see night elves living in Suramar or High elves living in Silvermoon.

This is not some existential debate it really is simple. What is there not to understand. Repeating that Silvermoon is blood elven 100 times and blood elves are horde 1000 times isn't going to change this desire for anyone who loved or cared for the high elves originally.

It doesn't matter what you care for.

Only the Blood Elves matter when it comes to Quel'Thalas and Blizzard is right to go in that direction because that is what 95% of Quel'Thalas is. It's just Sin'dorei lore. Sin'dorei story. Sin'dorei matters and it's about time because everything in TWW has just been Human/Dwarf or Earthen stuff with a small bit of Void Elves. It is time for the Alliance players to be taking orders from the leadership and high ranking Magisters and Farstriders within the Sin'dorei society.

I kept repeating this for months and now...it's just pure denial on your end.

Blizzard have made their intentions for Silvermoon very clear and by extension, Quel'Thalas as well.
Previous areas in ruins have been restored and are in the hands of the Sin'dorei.

Goldenmist Village is now in the firm hands of Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei and it's become a wine distribution village.

Sunstrider Isle has been cleansed of wild Arcane Creatures and the Wretched and has now become a place where the Sin'dorei Mages can learn to perfect their craft and advanced mastery of the Arcane.

[Mace]

Yeah, the Nightborne joining the Horde always felt silly and forced.
The Horde just needed their own purple elves, and that’s all it was.
The Night Elves never wronged them. Tyrande was a bit upset, sure, but that’s it. The Night Elves literally helped the Nightborne when they were in dire need.

And then, just a few years later, the Nightborne, now part of the Horde, helped burn Teldrassil to the ground. That’s pure nonsense.

The Nightborne should’ve stayed neutral.

Ever asked yourself why didn't the horde get void elves? It makes a lot of sense.

Well the alliance got void elves because they gave the Nightborne to the horde, and new they wouldn't get away with giving nothing. Or rather the Nightborne were a big enough catch to release the high elves to the alliance, but in the version of void elves.

The problem is that the Thalassian elves have a basis for being on the Alliance, they have that history with the alliance and some of them are still on it, so void elves on the alliance works even with blood elves there. but Nightborne? The Night fallen? You mean the kaldorei resistance and rebellion of the Nightfallen? The ones that are very much like Tyrande, Malfurion and the Moonguard Highborne that fought Azshara? THe ones who were entirely helped by the Night elves, creating the Arcan'dor, the Moonguard pitching in, the Val'Sharah priestesses and druid coming in to help in Shal'aran -

Why the fuck would Thalyssra go to the horde? She had literally said, criticising Elisande, that her people would be seen as defenders, not conquerors, then 2 patches afterwards joins the conquering faction that matches on Kalimdor conquering.


Off course it made no sense, because it was never planned, Blood elf fans saw Suramar, and craved it, they didn't care it was night elven, they coveted it, and so when Nightborne came, they tried to pretend they weren't night elven at all, but some brand new 3rd elven category - right a 3rd elven category in kaldorei empire culture, nocturnal, with fangs, and cat mounts, moon crescent statues in the 2nd most prominent night elf city, and you think they are some entirely new race of elves despite literally been pre-sundering cultured night elves.... right!!! So they fooled themselves , and they still do. The devs wanted it for their fave faction and couldn't resist, so even though they had destroyed Darnassus and having built the broken shore, Suramar, Val'Sharah, Azsuna as the replacement home for night elves who they knew were going to lose Teldrassil/Darnassus, Darkshore and Ashenvale , Stonetalon etc, didn't care.


They just changed it cos they wanted to, and fucked up their own plans out of coveted greed for their own creations wanting to go to their fave faction. Because bias and dev preference have always ruled over parity , balance and a good story. Case and point .. why are some classes always so over powered, especially back in the day? Because the devs in charge had their favourites? Why did the Alliance win against all odds and the night elves so OP'd to begin with - because they were dev favourites, ofc.. but back in WC3, we played everything, so we didn't have to choose sides. In wow we did, and to fix the game the devs had to fix the horde, they put so much effort into it, they ended up loving it. they made the blood elves the most beautiful thing in the game, to attract players over and fell in love with them and the horde.. and have never looked back.

They have favoured the horde and their favourites ever since, oh they've been little subtle about it, but it's been clear, the Blood elves have been successful and victorious in all their endeavours, every alliance race, including hte night elves they met, they just over powered (remember Azshara quests, Desolace quests, and Ghostlands quests? ) , when you see blood elves they always do well, end up overcoming their odds in a good or powerful way - why has that never been the case for the alliance until 8.1 which was the first time in game that the alliance actually seemed to do better than the horde in the battle for Dazar'alor when the two faced.. not that the victory mattered much, because it was a side story to Sylvanas and the Shadowlands, /

favourites, and that's what Warcraft is. Right now the blood elves are the favourites of hte old devs, the new ones quite like them, it might change if they properly develop another col race but will believe it when I see it.

Despite that, we'll still be requesting high elves, Silvermoon with high elves etc in it. Because we want it, however, not losing sleep over it. WE are all getting a new Silvermoon and we got our Kaldorei empire city, they may be in the hands of the horde, but they are available to players who can choose either faction and both factions adventure in them, with none really able to enjoy them as a home that makes any real difference to play. So there's that.

[Alanar]

Yeah, the Nightborne joining the Horde always felt silly and forced.
The Horde just needed their own purple elves, and that’s all it was.
The Night Elves never wronged them. Tyrande was a bit upset, sure, but that’s it. The Night Elves literally helped the Nightborne when they were in dire need.

And then, just a few years later, the Nightborne, now part of the Horde, helped burn Teldrassil to the ground. That’s pure nonsense.

The Nightborne should’ve stayed neutral.

Nah, Look, It was pretty obvious that night elves and Nightborne was just not the match some were hoping and it defo didnt feel forced at all, thats just your recollection, which shows you didnt pick up the many hints back then. They were essentially new people for everyone, including Tyrande. They basically came to the conclusion that their views were just to different. One kindom continued their magic use and the other forbid it. Mind you, there was no real hatred, nor did Tyrande wanted to take the city or any nonsense. Mace just started with that years ago.

It was a logical outcome they would find more common ground with the blood elves tbh. Saying horde needed purple elves only make it seem you are salty. Basically what this comes down to is: We (blue) wants them on our side and it didnt happen so now will will bash the story and the outcome. Its continues cries, we want what the horde gets. Its basically very childish.

The story wasnt silly, it got nothing but praise, the campaign was amazing and the city was lively. What is left is the outcome. Deal with it.

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Ever asked yourself why didn't the horde get void elves? It makes a lot of sense.
.

No ofc not, because any sane person knows that the void elves were created as a comprimise for them to have the blood elf model, with a gimmick (which was the void).

[elbleuet]

It is time for the Alliance players to be taking orders from the leadership and high ranking Magisters and Farstriders within the Sin'dorei society.

That’s what your inner self wants — but that’s not what’s actually happening in Midnight.
Lor’themar Theron, Rommath, and Halduron are treated like secondary characters (Halduron is doing something in Harandar but no one cares) .
Meanwhile, Liadrin, Turalyon, Arator, and Alleria are the ones giving you the quests and the orders.

Even your so-called sovereignty is being contested by the Vanguard, right within Silvermoon’s own walls.
@Alanar

I stopped reading your posts a long time ago. Please don’t bother replying. I’m not interested in what you have to say. But feel free to contribute to the debate

[Mace]

It doesn't matter what you care for.

clearly it does for things we say and suggest.

I mean we suggest htem because we care about them.

This is what discourse is about,See we are not saying this things to force a change for blizzard, we are saying what we like and what we think..

I couldn't give a rats behind what they're feelings are, to be quite honest because Silvermoon is the home of the Sin'dorei and the Blood Elves and that is Blizzard's desire.

Then why do you bother to respond to what we say here if you don't care?

Or you're just coming on here to say, "what you want won't happen" because that's not the way it is right now and I like it how it is so it won't change?
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Sorry, but clearly you care, because you are responding to it. Saying it's not going to happen won't stop people from wanting it, talking about what they want or giving thier ideas. You can't stop people form desiring and talking about their desires.

So what happens to the Sin'dorei? Because your currently a failure at selling this story to us and the Blood elf fanbase.

.

Ever thought the discussion wasn't intended for a blood elf purist who doesn't want high elves in Silvermoon? Why would i want to appeal to you about that ? or discuss that with you? It's clearly for high elf fans, quite aware you don't want or like this, but you can't con trol what people think or shut thier thoughts up becuase you don't like them, want what they want or agree with them. I mean for all your effort, has it stopped people desiring high elves? or wnating night elves to have a home city or high elves one of thier own?

no.

What you want to see happen to the Sin'dorei is something that you hate when it comes to the Nelfs and Helfs. So why should I entertain your idiotic proposals, when you hate them, yourself but you blame the Blood Elf fanbase for it. It's all your fault, Mace. Not mine.

You are wrong, if the reverse was true, i would want the blood elves to return and eventually return to being high elves. No I wouldn't want immoral, cares only about power and inviting hte Legion elves to return to my city and cause trouble without changing their ways off course, but those blood elves died in TBc and the ones that continued on returned to mostly what high elves were, those I'd look back.

And I wanted the Nightborne and Darnassians to have an incredible re-union, I was quite stoked about it, long before they were switched to the horde, and after that I have often agreed with those who suggest they work together. so if the roles were revered yes. As a nightborne fan, I'd want the night elves back too, so what the elves once were could be fully restored and done right now all the trials and troubles have ended and been solved.

[Alanar]

That’s what your inner self wants — but that’s not what’s actually happening in Midnight.
Lor’themar Theron, Rommath, and Halduron are treated like secondary characters (Halduron is doing something in Harandar but no one cares) .
Meanwhile, Liadrin, Turalyon, Arator, and Alleria are the ones giving you the quests and the orders.

Even your so-called sovereignty is being contested by the Vanguard, right within Silvermoon’s own walls.
@Alanar

I stopped reading your posts a long time ago. Please don’t bother replying. I’m not interested in what you have to say. But feel free to contribute to the debate

Another childsh thing to say. Ofc you dont like it, because I critize you and that is never fun. You are known to bash the horde on these topic all the time.

Ps: Ofc I also dont really care what you have to say either and most people simply ignore you, but its only fair to critize you on your bashing. I dont understand why you even bother to reply in this thread at all.