1. #2801
    Quote Originally Posted by Benomatic View Post
    Pandaren, and Nightborne are fine though?

    But there are enough void elves to make them significant? or enough goblins in a cartel to warrant playability ? Or even enough Pandaran to even split their numbers for both factions? But all the Alliance aligned High Elves in Outland, Northrend, Dalaran,, Eastern Kingdoms, Quel'Danil Lodge, Stormwind arn't a ton? Metric or imperial?

    But they are part of the Alliance, and have been for 23 years.
    Pandaren were generally considered a mistake, and all of the other races with low population are both culturally and visually distinct from other playable races. High elves have a low enough population to be denied, not the other way around. Nightborne are significantly different from night elves. Still purple, but a different purple, and with a different theme and feel. No one will be playing a Nightborne druid, in the same way that no one is going to play a Void Elf paladin.

    So I want to RP as an Alliance member Silver Covenant High Elf.

    To do this, I have to roll a Horde Blood elf? How will this work? I won't be able to communicate with the Alliance, I will be hostile to the Alliance, I won't be able to group up with the Alliance, I will constantly be flagged for PVP in Alliance settlements. I can't join Alliance guilds, raid groups or even be able to enter Horde settlements?

    I don't understand?

    How can I as a member of the Alliance and Silver Covenant even do this?
    That wasn't the whole message, the key part here was "Sorry."

    Originally Posted by Ion Hazzikostas
    That said, obviously I understand that if you love Alliance, you're an Alliance player, and you just want to be a fair-skinned, light-haired, blue-eyed elf... Sorry.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I accept they don't want to give High Elves, but their reasoning is still bullshit. They already HAVE blurred factions lines.
    In a couple of cases, sure. They just don't want to do more. It's not that complicated.

    Pandaren don't prove anything, because Blizzard decides what the game is and what's important going forward. You may not share their view of what those things are, but trying to tell them what matters for their own game isn't likely to change anything.
    Last edited by protip; 2018-04-27 at 10:11 AM.

  2. #2802
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Not saying it isn't. That doesn't make the explanation any less bullshit. So just because they make the rules, doesn't mean their reasoning makes any sense.
    Yes. 100% agreed

  3. #2803
    Elemental Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    In a couple of cases, sure. They just don't want to do more. It's not that complicated.

    Pandaren don't prove anything, because Blizzard decides what the game is and what's important going forward. You may not share their view of what those things are, but trying to tell them what matters for their own game isn't likely to change anything.
    Pandaren proves that faction identity isn't really a thing meaning the argument of faction identity as a reason is bullshit. Pandaren and then Velf and Nightborne on top of it proves they don't really care about faction identity.

    Yes, they can decide what is going forward, but they have also shown they listen to the fans of the game. So, as long as the Helf fans are vocal, it could change.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  4. #2804
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Pandaren proves that faction identity isn't really a thing meaning the argument of faction identity as a reason is bullshit. Pandaren and then Velf and Nightborne on top of it proves they don't really care about faction identity.
    Pandaren were an experiment to see if a neutral race could work.

    The Pandaren worked as a race. The concept of a neutral race is what failed. It is hard to say 'they don't care about faction identity because of Pandarens' when Pandarens are what clearly convinced them neutrality was a bad idea. They tried.

    Void Elves and Nightborne look similar to Blood Elves and Night Elves, but are not Blood Elves and Night Elves and they are arguably as far thematically from both of their parent races as it is possible to be. Faction identity is not totally dependant on looks alone, but on aesthetics and feelings.

    When I play a Blood Elf, I feel like a High Elf from traditional fantasy.

    When I play a Void Elf, I sort of feel like an extraterrestial alien.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Yes, they can decide what is going forward, but they have also shown they listen to the fans of the game. So, as long as the Helf fans are vocal, it could change.
    It almost certainly won't, partly because anti High Elfers are fans too so they listen to everyone but mostly because the reasons they have against playable High Elves, faction distinctiveness and the unique appearance of Blood Elves, are eternal.

  5. #2805
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Pandaren proves that faction identity isn't really a thing meaning the argument of faction identity as a reason is bullshit. Pandaren and then Velf and Nightborne on top of it proves they don't really care about faction identity.

    Yes, they can decide what is going forward, but they have also shown they listen to the fans of the game. So, as long as the Helf fans are vocal, it could change.
    It doesn't prove that faction identity doesn't matter, it proves that they were willing to try neutral races. They didn't like it, though, so it doesn't support the narrative that you're telling.

    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

    Quote Originally Posted by Sivation
    how do you feel having Pandarian shared between both factions has worked out? Would you do the same if new races were added?
    Not a fan of it overall. We just didn't want to deny anyone Pandaren.
    Source; Game Director during MoP: https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...65802590384129

    You can argue that Void Elves and Nightborne show that they were willing to compromise on faction identity somewhat, but given that High Elf fans are still so loudly unsatisfied, I think it's fair to call that experiment a failure, too. Since Ion said they had no plans to add High Elves right now, you can take that to mean that being unwilling to accept the Void Elf compromise hasn't given High Elf fans the leverage they wanted.

  6. #2806
    Elemental Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Pandaren were an experiment to see if a neutral race could work.

    The Pandaren worked as a race. The concept of a neutral race is what failed. It is hard to say 'they don't care about faction identity because of Pandarens' when Pandarens are what clearly convinced them neutrality was a bad idea. They tried.

    Void Elves and Nightborne look similar to Blood Elves and Night Elves, but are not Blood Elves and Night Elves and they are arguably as far thematically from both of their parent races as it is possible to be. Faction identity is not totally dependant on looks alone, but on aesthetics and feelings.

    When I play a Blood Elf, I feel like a High Elf from traditional fantasy.

    When I play a Void Elf, I sort of feel like an extraterrestial alien.



    It almost certainly won't, partly because anti High Elfers are fans too so they listen to everyone but mostly because the reasons they have against playable High Elves, faction distinctiveness and the unique appearance of Blood Elves, are eternal.
    Nothing you actually said countered anything I said and I don't feel like going around in circle because of your opinion. There is nothing from Blizzard that states Pandaren were a mistake, in fact, the only quotes I have ever seen is that a neutral race would only be released if they could make it work for both factions.

    And I have 110 Velf and 110 belf ... Velf don't feel "alien" like at all to me. The only alien race feel to mean are the Draenei to me (despite the face orcs are alien too).

    And those reasons aren't eternal at all and in fact have ALREADY been proven to be weak.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    It doesn't prove that faction identity doesn't matter, it proves that they were willing to try neutral races. They didn't like it, though, so it doesn't support the narrative that you're telling.

    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler



    Not a fan of it overall. We just didn't want to deny anyone Pandaren.
    Source; Game Director during MoP: https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...65802590384129

    You can argue that Void Elves and Nightborne show that they were willing to compromise on faction identity somewhat, but given that High Elf fans are still so loudly unsatisfied, I think it's fair to call that experiment a failure, too. Since Ion said they had no plans to add High Elves right now, you can take that to mean that being unwilling to accept the Void Elf compromise hasn't given High Elf fans the leverage they wanted.
    Why should I care what Ghostcrawler personally thinks? That question was directed at HIM that HE (not Blizzard) is not a fan of Pandaren while THEY (Blizzard) didn't want to deny anyone Pandaren.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  7. #2807
    They should have went with option 3: deny everyone Pandaren

  8. #2808
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Why should I care what Ghostcrawler personally thinks? That question was directed at HIM that HE (not Blizzard) is not a fan of Pandaren while THEY (Blizzard) didn't want to deny anyone Pandaren.
    "You" is ambiguous, but he responded in the plural, so I think it's pretty clear how he interpreted the question. If that's not good enough for you though, you're free to be confused about why they keep bringing up faction identity. There's a simple answer here, even if it's hard for you to accept.

  9. #2809
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Nothing you actually said countered anything I said and I don't feel like going around in circle because of your opinion. There is nothing from Blizzard that states Pandaren were a mistake, in fact, the only quotes I have ever seen is that a neutral race would only be released if they could make it work for both factions.

    And I have 110 Velf and 110 belf ... Velf don't feel "alien" like at all to me. The only alien race feel to mean are the Draenei to me (despite the face orcs are alien too).

    And those reasons aren't eternal at all and in fact have ALREADY been proven to be weak.
    Just because you think the reasons are weak does not mean you are correct. And when Blizzard themselves publicly acknowledges that those are the reason High Elves aren't and probably will never be playable, I feel absolutely justified in believing that those reasons are strong. I mean, if the reasons are strong enough to convince the author of the work then how much better do they need to be?

    Blizzard places a far, far higher importance on the faction divide than you clearly do. Blizzard also accepts the truth that Blood Elves are High Elves.

    It's time to face the music. I know you wanted High Elves on the Alliance, but that is not going to happen. It is time to let go of that goal and maybe focus your energies on something more realistic.

  10. #2810
    Faction identity is reasonable if you don't have significant NPCs for that race on both sides. High Elves (or do you want to call them all Blood Elves now?) are on both sides, and have been since Blood Elves joined the Horde in TBC. Before that there were High Elves in the Alliance and the Blood Elves were isolating themselves back in Silvermoon, with a few showing up in places to basically be dicks to any player who did their quests. None were in the Horde at that time.

  11. #2811
    Elemental Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    "You" is ambiguous, but he responded in the plural, so I think it's pretty clear how he interpreted the question. If that's not good enough for you though, you're free to be confused about why they keep bringing up faction identity. There's a simple answer here, even if it's hard for you to accept.
    No, he stated we after giving his answer. You are no more correct applying plurality to the first part than I am.

    Given the question was posed to Ghostcrawler the question is asking solely for his individual opinion. You cannot logically state the first part is plural because the latter half was. In fact, it doesn't make any sense if it was all plural ... no one speaks like that. If Blizzard wasn't a fan of neutral races ... Pandaren wouldn't exist as a neutral race while if Ghostcrawler isn't a fan of neutral races, but Blizzard didn't want to deny Panderan makes sense.

    The fact is that quote is literally evidence that faction identity doesn't matter if your view of it is right ... if anything I am arguing for a point that WEAKENS my argument while you are arguing for a something that would strengthen it.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  12. #2812
    Quote Originally Posted by Benomatic View Post
    So I want to RP as an Alliance member Silver Covenant High Elf.
    Well, you can't. Maybe try something else, or a different game.
    ... I mean, I wanna have a horse pet in The Sims 4. Sims 3 had it but Sims 4 pet expansion came out and didn't have horses.
    Devs said there wasn't gonna be horses, but fuck their bullshit excuses. I want horses in The Sims 4.
    ... do you see where I'm going with this?
    If not... Devs make the game. You don't like their choices you either adapt or just go play a different game.
    Hell, devs are saying this isn't gonna happen and people still have a but and a couple of howevers.

  13. #2813
    Elemental Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Just because you think the reasons are weak does not mean you are correct. And when Blizzard themselves publicly acknowledges that those are the reason High Elves aren't and probably will never be playable, I feel absolutely justified in believing that those reasons are strong. I mean, if the reasons are strong enough to convince the author of the work then how much better do they need to be?

    Blizzard places a far, far higher importance on the faction divide than you clearly do. Blizzard also accepts the truth that Blood Elves are High Elves.

    It's time to face the music. I know you wanted High Elves on the Alliance, but that is not going to happen. It is time to let go of that goal and maybe focus your energies on something more realistic.
    You have every right to feel those reasons are strong because you have every right to believe something that is false. I actually don't care if they add High Elves or not, personally it would be nice but it doesn't matter to me. What I don't like is piss poor reasoning they are giving on why. Add them or don't, just be consistent in the stance.

    Blizzard is saying X, Y and Z but then allows other races to break those reasons. That by definition makes their reasoning weak. I accept their reasons, but doesn't make it less bullshit. It's not my opinion it's a weak explanation it's factual ... you are confusing acceptance of a reason with strength of the reason.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  14. #2814
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  15. #2815
    "... Blood Elves are basically High Elves. Slightly different eye color and backstory..."
    Highmoutain Taurens are basically Taurens. Slightly different horns and backstory.
    Nightborn are basically Night Elves. Slightly nightwell influence and backstory.
    Mag'har Orcs are basically Orcs. Slightly skin colors and backstory.

    Please Ion, just say "I dunnot want to see my precios blood elves skin in the Alliance Scum hands"

    The very justification of the Blood Elves going to the Horde is weaker than any argument here, including those who do not want high elves in the Alliance.

    Blood Elfs mind:
    The Amani Troll are my worst enemys. In the second war the Horde Allied to the troll. Eventually the Undead Scourge purged my beloved City.
    Even so, all my hatred for a single racist human, General fu%$*# Garithos, is enough to join me in Troll, Orc, and Undeads.
    Good logic.

    "Why would we ever make a change that people don't like or doesn't feel good? "
    Why you ever not make a a change that people would like or feel good? Right?

    #IMissMatzen #IMissTheThrallHorde
    Last edited by orukam; 2018-04-27 at 11:09 AM.

  16. #2816
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laerrus View Post
    There are actually far more High Elves than Void elves, which as Ion put it, constitute a "elite crack squad" of former Blood Elves. A squad is tiny compared to the Batallions that Vereesa commands in her Silver Covenant.

    Stormwind City has a population of 200,000 of which 10% of those or 20,000 are High Elves.

    Then you have all the ones throughout the Kingdom of Stormwind as well as the settlements in Outland.

    That old arguement that there are just not enough, doesn't fly anymore with the inclusion of the handful of Void Elves.
    It doesnt matter what you think.. there is nothing to prove or get anything out this.. its the same thing over and over I just realy dont see the point.

  17. #2817
    The thing that I feel was legitimately disrespectful about Ion's answer was basically the same he gave 7 months ago, so he's basically saying that in 7 months no one raised one single point worth addressing in the Q&A about High Elves.

    That's just not caring about the community feedback, regardless if you agree with it. But the lack of acknowledgement of it all, of all the ideas people came up with, of all the points raised, is what feels very discouraging as a community, regardless of the answer. (Which really, doesn't surprise me because the faction identity thing alone was reasoning enough from a gameplay perspective)

  18. #2818
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollhammer View Post
    Having watched quite a few tutorial videos of that 'format' on youtube, this was glorious. Thanks for sharing!

  19. #2819
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Blizzard is saying X, Y and Z but then allows other races to break those reasons. That by definition makes their reasoning weak. I accept their reasons, but doesn't make it less bullshit. It's not my opinion it's a weak explanation it's factual ... you are confusing acceptance of a reason with strength of the reason.
    Trying out a neutral race because they have never done it before, and then not liking how it turned out is not "allowing other races to break those reasons." You're trying to use the Pandaren experiment as somehow proof that "anything goes" or "Pandora's box is opened," as if Blizzard is suddenly off limits to take a step back and realize that strong faction identity needs to be a thing again.
    When we looked at the relics of the precursors, we saw the height civilization can attain.
    When we looked at their ruins, we marked the danger of that height.
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  20. #2820
    Elemental Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    Trying out a neutral race because they have never done it before, and then not liking how it turned out is not "allowing other races to break those reasons." You're trying to use the Pandaren experiment as somehow proof that "anything goes" or "Pandora's box is opened," as if Blizzard is suddenly off limits to take a step back and realize that strong faction identity needs to be a thing again.
    Pandaren was the start. They then gave the elves skeletons and looks to opposing factions. And now they go "Faction Identity is important" ... if you can't see how that doesn't follow you don't understand anything.

    Also, Blizzard has not stated Neutral Races are not happening again either. You can't focus on half my argument to disprove it all.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

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