1. #3021
    No game director would ever put in a race that, as it is in the game (ie. High Elves as they are right now without any changes), would imbalance the factions.

    People need to remember that when you say you want High Elves, you are saying you want the nigh-identical forms that exist in the game.

    You NEED to distinguish a NEW kind of name for what you want. As long as High Elves look one way in the game, you NEED to propose a NEW elf to replace them that encompasses what you want.

    Dragonborne, Wildborne, Wild Elf, Nature Elf, go nuts.
    Last edited by EbaumsTipster; 2018-04-27 at 07:06 PM.

  2. #3022
    Bloodsail Admiral Leodric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Actually I had a moment of frustration when I caught up earlier and my post was, intemperate.

    It is frustrating to be proven right and yet have those who oppose my point of view try to pretend that nothing has changed.

    While I think that there is an attempt to marginalise Ion's statement as much as possible, I regret the tone of my earlier posts this evening as the conversation has wound on. There is no point in changing them now as the damage has been done, and much of what I said I believe, but I regret phrasing it as I did.
    Point is that it's still possible to implement it. I didn't follow the thread much since I actually don't care if they implement High Elves or not (I would play a High Elf Hunter if they implement it at some point, but if not, don't really care).

    Also Blizzard has proven many times they do stuff which they opposed heavily from the beginning (classic server for example). So I don't understand where the agressive attitude comes from some people bashin on high elf fans. I don't get following scenario by the way in which I see many people here hating the idea of an high elve allied race:

    I mean you got a thread about High Elves and people fanboying about them -> you don't like it and you think they are delusional for thinking they would implement it and yet you still stay in that thread and bash on those people.

    Where is the logic? If you don't like it at all then just leave it be. Especially after Blizzard confirmed they won't get it in the near future and still people here bash on high elf fans. Is that fun? Seriously? Making signatures to bash those people and remind them in completly irrelevant threads that they most likely would not get high elves is a sign of a really weak character in my opinion and makes you look like the salty one actually. Just my two cents about this topic.

    Sorry for all the people who actually loved to play a High Elf, maybe in future expansions they will implement it. Play the game and give BFA a try regardless and just ignore people here bashing you.

  3. #3023
    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post
    Here's the problem...

    You're fighting an archetype.
    While I agree Blood Elves have their rough and prideful edges and characters, Blood Elf society has its own noble figures, though. I mean Liadrin is a redeemed hero. Halduron is a noble ranger-general of the Farstriders. Even Lor'themar seems very much a noble and virtuous character.

    I don't really see the High Elf faction represent the nobility and graceful heroism that Legolas does however. Alleria did at one point, but her path changed and she wasn't there for the split. The current High Elves isolated themselves from their brethren that they felt were falling lower, clinging to a sence of nobility and purity, over the perceived lower path the Blood Elves were willing to walk. They have embraced the intolerance of Warcraft's humans, campaigning against and shunning their former people, and turning to bloodshed eager to be rid of them, during the Purge of Dalaran.

    Vereesa does not strike me as a Legolas type, but as the elf of cold classical values with sense of superiority, that is exactly the type Legolas is a rebel against. The Legolas Archetype seems to be filled better by other characters.


    I don't think it's the archtype that's the problem (though some degree the perception of it is). I think nostalgia is a big part of it. Despite WoW being a progressive story, there is a large desire to play things that were available in the past at some point. And another big part is Blizzard's mistake of continuously making the Silver Covenant a thing that is relevant. Without their impact over the years, I don't see the desire for playable high elves being even half this size.

  4. #3024
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I have never denied bias. But I have never allowed bias to cloud my judgement, or state misinterpretations of what I believe the developers to be thinking.

    As I have said, what Ion said last night is what I wished someone in his position would say, he covered everything. Using it as my signature is a reminder I have that I was not incorrect.
    As far your signature goes, it's not a reminder for yourself, is it not?

    And I am saying that if he had truly "covered everything" perhaps the backlash wouldn't have been so severe. Yet that would be tantamount to accept that "The High Elf Community" could be reasonable, and that could never be the case for you, as you will always only focus on its most negative aspects.

    Regardless, while you were speaking only for yourself, the pro High Elf community reaction has not been edifying (the discord screenshots are particularly disturbing). And I am sure that there was no way Ion could have said no without setting them off.
    Because evidently, a group of people on a discord chat accurately represents the Pro High Elf community as a whole. How amusing.

    And this is the bias that I am talking about; you were never interested in giving Pro High Elf people any respect, and you will continue to define everyone that wanted High Elves by the actions of a few. How can that be ever respectful or fair, Obelisk?

    Most people will accept that there won't be no High Elves, as it has been for the last 14 years, but I expect Ion's lack of respect to always be a sore spot for some, and that has nothing to do with the answer being No.

  5. #3025
    High Elf fans be like:


  6. #3026
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    How are Felbloods made? Over indulgence in Fel. How are Wretched made? Over indulgence in Arcane. I wonder how Void Elves can be made, never mind the fact that Void magics are some of the most corrupting forces there are. It really is not that much of a stretch that some of you make it out to be.
    You wonder how void elves are made? Then i tell you that. Void elves were victims of transformation, that was interrupted by alleria halfway through.. Nobody knows if alleria or locus walker can recreate this transformation and even if they could, who would willingly become a void elf who is at mercy of void lords, and when exactly should they stop the transformation so they dont become full ethereals? You cant just assume that new void elves pop out when you dont realise their transformation was product of pure luck.

  7. #3027
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    As far your signature goes, it's not a reminder for yourself, is it not?
    That it serves to remind others that something they would like to pretend wasn't said, was in fact said, is also important. There is a long standing tradition within the pro High Elf community of denigrating, minimising or marginalising the official commentary on this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    And I am saying that if he had truly "covered everything" perhaps the backlash wouldn't have been so severe. Yet that would be tantamount to accept that "The High Elf Community" could be reasonable, and that could never be the case for you, as you will always only focus on its most negative aspects.
    The most negative aspects of the pro High Elf community would have driven this backlash regardless. I suspect you are trying to blame Ion personally for being honest with his audience.



    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Because evidently, a group of people on a discord chat accurately represents the Pro High Elf community as a whole. How amusing.
    That many of the posters on that discord were frequent contributors to the more popular threads on this topic across multiple forums demonstrates that they were a strong component of that voice.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    And this is the bias that I am talking about; you were never interested in giving Pro High Elf people any respect, and you will continue to define everyone that wanted High Elves by the actions of a few. How can that be ever respectful or fair, Obelisk?
    Do not confuse respecting individuals with respecting arguments. I admit that earlier this evening I lost my temper and said things in a way I am not proud of, but that does not occur often.

    I have never respected the pro High Elf argument however and I make no apologies for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Most people will accept that there won't be no High Elves, as it has been for the last 14 years, but I expect Ion's lack of respect to always be a sore spot for some, and that has nothing to do with the answer being No.
    I think the majority of those angry now would have shot the messanger no matter who it was or how they said it. But that is conjecture at this point.

  8. #3028
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkrypt View Post
    High Elf fans be like:
    Sad, spiteful people be like:

  9. #3029
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    And I am saying that if he had truly "covered everything" perhaps the backlash wouldn't have been so severe. Yet that would be tantamount to accept that "The High Elf Community" could be reasonable, and that could never be the case for you, as you will always only focus on its most negative aspects.

    Most people will accept that there won't be no High Elves, as it has been for the last 14 years, but I expect Ion's lack of respect to always be a sore spot for some, and that has nothing to do with the answer being No.
    After 14 years of answering the same question, I don't think it's fair to blame him for being direct. The backlash is just a consequence of the answer. The explanation of that answer was based on design philosophies that High Elf fans do not (and cannot) share, because it directly opposes what they are asking for.

    It's no surprise that they would feel like such an answer was incomplete, but those values are what has led to the creation of WoW as we know it. I'm glad that they want to continue with a development process that has evolved to be successful for that whole 14 years. Part of the reason that I oppose High Elves being made playable is because it goes against those values. I don't want Blizzard to sacrifice a successful system in an attempt to give a minority what they want.

  10. #3030
    Quote Originally Posted by Andoras View Post
    Sad, spiteful people be like:
    *snip*
    Good thing I'm not sad or spiteful. I'm actually happy and satisfied.

    Horde kept its identity, and Alliance got wrekt.

  11. #3031
    Deleted
    So it seems the pro helfers arent the only ones who are in denial.

  12. #3032
    Quote Originally Posted by Greywyr View Post
    This was my mistake. I apologize if you took offense, because indeed this was not towards you directly. We have discussed points before and there's nothing for me to point out from our interactions.

    After the Q&A I checked the reactions and the loudest remain disappointing. Your personal appreciation - as in, the argument you expose - was not something strange to read after the backlash, I've seen answers alike, but in the juvenile mindset of "Ion, we did the homework for you, but we're not getting it because you didn't pay attention?! It's all there!". And it prompted my reply. Perhaps I should simply not have quoted you in this case. Even when I mentioned you, I was not speaking to you, but generally.

    The point of the post remains. As I said before, there are many posters that contributed to the discussion on the either side that were civil and respectful, turned this discussion into something constructive (when sometimes it was hard to do so). Naturally, my previous - and more aggressive - post is not for those, if this wasn't clear before.

    To you specifically:

    I didn't take his answer as necessarily dismissive of all the work that has been done around this. In fact, I would consider dismissive if his response was more direct and something of along the lines of "Yes, I've seen your work, but that's not the point, because...". So I fundamentally disagree with you here. For me the fact that it was given a similar answer meant that despite being a controversial topic, they have a particular stance on it and they don't want to change it. You see similar interactions when say, someone approaches him about Titanforged: his response is short, using the same kind of arguments. "we know many are not fond of it, but we like it and it's to keep". If anything, this being straight forward.
    But to say that is disheartening they don't care about feedback, that's a big leap you're doing. You had proof that these discussions were kept alive just for the purpose of listening to you and your ideas. And I had this discussion with you, I believe. In all this, their goal is to preserve the gameplay experience, and no matter the ideas or creativity that some of you had to try to make it somewhat possible - they still feel it conflicts with either the gameplay they wish to have or the compromise they tried to find to keep you content.
    Thank you.

    As for what pertains to me specifically:

    Indeed, I do perceive a fundamental disagreement on what dismissal entails, and that is basically just a matter of perspective.

    A simple "We heard you, we are aware of the ideas and points you that what High Elves have brought and we appreciate your passion, but..." That would have been a world of difference for many people, whether you believe it or not. Of course some people would still just not accept it either way, but I am only speaking for me and the people that think alike.

    But to give basically the same arguments he did months ago, the same arguments that were seen as flawed and that sparked the whole conversation, feels dismissive. Regardless if is answer was the same, regardless if he considers that maintaining faction identity is the priority, is the lack of acknowledgement of the poits brought up in the months of discussion that irks me and other. What was it worth then, all the discussions, all the feedback if we didn't get even a "We are aware of the points you made"?

    That is what feels dismissive, regardless of his answer being No

    In all this, their goal is to preserve the gameplay experience, and no matter the ideas or creativity that some of you had to try to make it somewhat possible
    Even you in this throw away line at least pay some lip service to the Pro High Elf side, and is the lack of anything like this what feels disheartening.

  13. #3033
    Quote Originally Posted by Andoras View Post
    So it seems the pro helfers arent the only ones who are in denial.
    What would we have to be in denial about? We literally got exactly what we want.

    Are you just fond of speaking in vague, pointless phrases? You should practice on being edgy. It's not working the way you think it is.

  14. #3034
    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    Fair enough, thought you were just referring to the picture.

    So which point are you trying to refer to from the video?

    The point where Elisande states that the High Elves have been diluting their bloodlines and therefore are no longer "purely" High Elves, but in fact are more akin to that of Half Elves?

    Or are you trying for some asinine argumentation that their political difference makes them different enough, while ignoring what Ion had to say yesterday regarding faction identity.

    What exactly is your statement?

    What i wrote on the previous page to your answer:

    Quote Originally Posted by RangerDaz View Post
    (...) the silver covenant was introduced in the Lich King expansion, just like the Ebon Blade.
    And see how the Ebon Blade has also grown in relevance.

    Blizzard could have made Night elves in one side, Blood elves in another, and then Nightborne in the middle. But they didn't. They added Vereesa's army as well.
    For me, that's recognition. Blizzard felt they were worthy to be included in the narrative of freeing Suramar.
    Were the Scryers or the Shattered Sun Offensive included in this event? Nope. Blizzard has completely forgotten about them.

  15. #3035
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkrypt View Post
    What would we have to be in denial about? We literally got exactly what we want.

    Are you just fond of speaking in vague, pointless phrases? You should practice on being edgy. It's not working the way you think it is.
    Thanks for further proving my point, not that it was needed, it was obvious from the very start.

  16. #3036
    Bloodsail Admiral DaHomieG's Avatar
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    Just dropping into this thread to remind yall that youll never get High Elves. Ever. Void Elves were your compromise and if you can't settle for that then you'll never get what you want. Sorry.

  17. #3037
    Deleted
    What's pretty sad is that Ion quite clearly didn't even look at what the requests for High Elves actually contained. It's very likely that he just dismissed them and was not interested in hearing what the fuss was about in the first place. And when there is such a prominent argument among the community, I would expect the lead dev to actually look into it, no matter what the issue is. But Ion didn't do it, which, for me, speaks a lot about him as a lead game designer. Oh well.

  18. #3038
    Quote Originally Posted by Gentlepenguin View Post
    They've pretty much dumped all pretenses of civility on their Discord. They're cheerily discussing things like wishing suicide on Ion, getting him fired, and gangrape.



    Have you guys actually remember or read the last 50 pages of this thread?
    Please reread them and associate all posts from both sides with "They've pretty much dumped all pretenses of civility"

    I'm not defending the Discord channel, but I am saying that both sides have "dumped pretenses of civility".
    All the torches and pitchforks and fury of the anti HE fans is totally written here. Many comments probably worse than those of discord guys.
    HE fans also exaggerated as well, but clearly the wrath of the anti HE fans was equaly disturbing as the texts from the HE fans in Discord.

    By the way, i have never entered or spied the High Elf Discord channel. Don't even care about it.
    Why do you guys actually bother going there anyway?
    Last edited by RangerDaz; 2018-04-27 at 07:42 PM.

  19. #3039
    If you want High Elves badly, vote with your wallet. People quitting en masse brought an end to Cataclysm's self-destructive "casuals fuck off" design philosophy, and won us transmog as a bonus--something Blizzard had told us for years we didn't really want and weren't getting, but suddenly managed to conjure up once it became obvious they either gave players what they wanted or their game was going to keep bleeding subs by the millions until it died.

    As for the sort of attitude required to be happy about other people not getting something they want that would have no negative impact on you whatsoever, well, that's the hallmark of being a miserable cunt.
    It became clear that it wasn’t realistic to try to get the audience back to being more hardcore, as it had been in the past. -- Tom Chilton

  20. #3040
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    While I agree Blood Elves have their rough and prideful edges and characters, Blood Elf society has its own noble figures, though. I mean Liadrin is a redeemed hero. Halduron is a noble ranger-general of the Farstriders. Even Lor'themar seems very much a noble and virtuous character.

    I don't really see the High Elf faction represent the nobility and graceful heroism that Legolas does however. Alleria did at one point, but her path changed and she wasn't there for the split. The current High Elves isolated themselves from their brethren that they felt were falling lower, clinging to a sence of nobility and purity, over the perceived lower path the Blood Elves were willing to walk. They have embraced the intolerance of Warcraft's humans, campaigning against and shunning their former people, and turning to bloodshed eager to be rid of them, during the Purge of Dalaran.

    Vereesa does not strike me as a Legolas type, but as the elf of cold classical values with sense of superiority, that is exactly the type Legolas is a rebel against. The Legolas Archetype seems to be filled better by other characters.


    I don't think it's the archtype that's the problem (though some degree the perception of it is). I think nostalgia is a big part of it. Despite WoW being a progressive story, there is a large desire to play things that were available in the past at some point. And another big part is Blizzard's mistake of continuously making the Silver Covenant a thing that is relevant. Without their impact over the years, I don't see the desire for playable high elves being even half this size.
    Archetypes are a loose collection of ideas and concepts. Individuals, locations, and story elements can be unrelated or even completely contradict the archetype.

    An elf that is allied with goblins and trolls against humans will always fall under the classical elf archetype. And as a race, the Blood Elves fit many of these characteristics. Metzen is a big student of ancient stories and ideas, so this was not a coincidence.

    Same with the High Elves. A "human-like" elf that fights alongside humans and dwarfs against orcs, trolls, and goblins fits within the archetype that Tolkien created. Even if the characters themselves are nothing like Legolas or any of the other characters. Part of the reason why archetypes are so powerful is because they are broad ideas that can be applied to different concepts.

    The Void Elf is something else. They don't fit any classical elf archetype. They more closely fit with either the Vampire archetype or the archetype of the demon possessed. More the former visually and the latter conceptually.

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