Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

That it serves to remind others that something they would like to pretend wasn't said, was in fact said, is also important. There is a long standing tradition within the pro High Elf community of denigrating, minimising or marginalising the official commentary on this issue.

And now we have your signature to remind us all you "were right." How commendable it is to preserve the voice of a multinational company who makes its own decisions from the insidious dissent on unofficial forums as well. I'm not discounting the quote on grounds of his validity, that's the official stance and there's no discussion about it, but what is funny is that it still doesn't understand why people want High Elves on the first place. It's basically made to evoque a deeply sarcastic "Really?" on people who wanted Alliance High Elves.

The most negative aspects of the pro High Elf community would have driven this backlash regardless. I suspect you are trying to blame Ion personally for being honest with his audience.

No need defend Ion's maidenhood so hard, Obelisk. No need to feel so attacked by the sheer notion that Ion could have been more tactful and respectful of the High Elf Community, all because you believe they would have been the ingrate whiners you have always believed them to be. It is evident you see nothing wrong or even to be improved with his answer regardless, and to that I can only respectfully disagree.

That many of the posters on that discord were frequent contributors to the more popular threads on this topic across multiple forums demonstrates that they were a strong component of that voice.

Does that make them official representatives of a "High Elf Movement?" Do their voices speak for all of the people that wanted High Elves? There has always been something so odd about trying to judge the many for the few, but it is so easy to generalize.

Do not confuse respecting individuals with respecting arguments. I admit that earlier this evening I lost my temper and said things in a way I am not proud of, but that does not occur often.

I have never respected the pro High Elf argument however and I make no apologies for that.

Can you truly respect anyone who you believe has an intrinsically flawed opinion? Even as something as silly as High Elves on a videogame? Yet still, as far as not respecting the "High Elf Argument" as it was a gestalt of wrong with not a single valid point, that will always bee something incredible biased. Is it because even having conceding a point would make you less right, I wonder?

I think the majority of those angry now would have shot the messanger no matter who it was or how they said it. But that is conjecture at this point.

Exactly, conjecture. You do get it.

[RangerDaz]

As for the sort of attitude required to be happy about other people not getting something they want that would have no negative impact on you whatsoever, well, that's the hallmark of being a miserable cunt.

Thank you.

[Shinkishi]

Yeah the exact same argument was made, but this time the devs agree. There’s nothing more to this.

That was not the contention. It's still a bad argument.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

After 14 years of answering the same question, I don't think it's fair to blame him for being direct. The backlash is just a consequence of the answer. The explanation of that answer was based on design philosophies that High Elf fans do not (and cannot) share, because it directly opposes what they are asking for.

It's no surprise that they would feel like such an answer was incomplete, but those values are what has led to the creation of WoW as we know it. I'm glad that they want to continue with a development process that has evolved to be successful for that whole 14 years. Part of the reason that I oppose High Elves being made playable is because it goes against those values. I don't want Blizzard to sacrifice a successful system in an attempt to give a minority what they want.

Perhaps, or perhaps the backlash is also fueled by a perception of Ion's lack of respect. It isn't just one thing really, and perhaps if I had been given the No I wanted, I would join you in believing some people will just never take a no for an answer.

But is that lack of acknowledgement of the many ideas people presented, even the ones to actually preserve those values you bring up -how many a compromise was presented, for many do believed that the Blood Elf model should not be further diluted on the Alliance- what irks me and many.

And that is an issue that goes beyond the answer being No, it's an issue of seven months of feedback not deserving an acknowledgement from the lead development.

[Deleted]

What's pretty sad is that Ion quite clearly didn't even look at what the requests for High Elves actually contained.

The fan art and concepts and stuff? They've overwhelmingly been low effort recolors of blood elf art, towns, emblems, and aesthetics, all the things Blizzard have now said they aren't willing to trade to cross-faction playable races. Across three forums I frequent, this thread contains pretty much the only halfway unique take on high elves out there, and a good chunk of the regulars on the official board rejected these ideas, saying they weren't pretty or high/blood elvish enough. Kinda reminds me of something Ion said yesterday...

[Goldielocks]

That was not the contention. It's still a bad argument.

In your view.

[The Stormbringer]

This answer was kinda obvious and expected but they really should do something about all the high elf NPCs on the alliance since that is literally what fuels the pro-high elf side. They need to have them all either get killed or convert into void elves or a combination of the two. Otherwise it will never stop. In fact Ion saying "anything is possible" literally means the constant high elf demands will never stop. If you want to play a high elf, just roll horde and only group up with other blood elves since they are everywhere(the racial nerf might help reduce them a bit, filtering out those who played because of how OP it was.)

Also Void elves need alot more spotlight on them since they clearly have a furture in the story and in the Alliance.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DVNhuZEXUAAE2cH.jpg

Plus they have an amazing heritage set.

o.o...

Replying to this so that picture link is saved in my post history. >.>

[Deleted]

No game director would ever put in a race that, as it is in the game (ie. High Elves as they are right now without any changes), would imbalance the factions.

People need to remember that when you say you want High Elves, you are saying you want the nigh-identical forms that exist in the game.

You NEED to distinguish a NEW kind of name for what you want. As long as High Elves look one way in the game, you NEED to propose a NEW elf to replace them that encompasses what you want.

Dragonborne, Wildborne, Wild Elf, Nature Elf, go nuts.

They could have made High Elves look way different than Blood Elves, after all they their apperance must've changed due all the sunwell stuff etc. They don't have to be a copy paste of Blood Elves with blue eyes etc. Yes, the current NPCs ingame might look like copy paste Blood Elves, but once upon a time Sylvanas had a Night Elf model too.

[Shinkishi]

In your view.

Okay? If you're not going to defend it I don't know why you replied.

[melzas]

Saying that high elves wouldn't be different enough from blood elfs as an argument when pandaren exist is pertty stupid, I think.

[Goldielocks]

Okay? If you're not going to defend it I don't know why you replied.

I already defended it. I agree with the devs that blurring the lines will damage the game. They don't want to take the chance and poke that beast. There's nothing else to say.

Saying that high elves wouldn't be different enough from blood elfs as an argument when pandaren exist is pertty stupid, I think.

The devs hate how the Pandaren turned out. That's how it's not stupid.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

The fan art and concepts and stuff? They've overwhelmingly been low effort recolors of blood elf art, towns, emblems, and aesthetics, all the things Blizzard have now said they aren't willing to trade across factions. Across three forums I frequent, this thread contains pretty much the only halfway unique take on high elves out there, and a good chunk of the regulars on the official board rejected these ideas, saying they weren't pretty or high/blood elvish enough. Kinda reminds me of something Ion said yesterday...

Even I did some edits based on NE and Human models, and the responses I got were mostly positive. Sadly never got around to make more unique faces before the announcement. Point is, even a hybridizes Human/Elf aesthetic would have been something unique for the game, so it's not like there wasn't any possible ideas.

[Deleted]

A simple "We heard you, we are aware of the ideas and points you that what High Elves have brought and we appreciate your passion, but..." That would have been a world of difference for many people, whether you believe it or not. Of course some people would still just not accept it either way, but I am only speaking for me and the people that think alike.

I can... sympathize with this. And not saying you're wrong, but I ask you to leave your personal scope for a moment and try to put yourself in someone of this position's shoes: you have a group of people to address where their voices do not speak in unison (in the sense this sort of request had different suggestions) and react differently. You need a direct message with little fluff so to speak, otherwise might lead to misinterpretations (there were already some). The kind of references you speak of, could very well make people feel it's personal that their feedback was not good enough, know what I mean? I'm not saying his statement was perfect, but I understand why it was the way it was: short and addressing the points they feel problematic.

Nevertheless, you might feel this way now because this is a sore subject at the moment. But in my personal opinion, very much doubt so. This is not a single man's decision, I'm sure the team behind it looked through these regardless of the outcome. It might be even somewhat useful to try to figure out what people think it's amiss the Void Elves (with limitations)

[Toppy]

Are Void Elves actually in any of the BFA zones?

Only races showing up in alliance zones are humans and in one area dark iron.

What did you think the Alliance was? The Horde which has everyone but Tauren showing up? Pffffffffft

[Traycor]

But what attracted me to the Blood Elf was the inversion of the very archetype you are talking about, that in this universe Legolas fought beside Azog. It was the moment I realised WoW's lore didn't have to be bound by genre tropes, that literally everything was possible.

But that's just it. The Blood Elves are the classical trope of the elf. That trope is much much older and was far more prevalent in societal thinking than the current popular tropes of elves. It's not some radical new thing and it's very far from unique. Metzen just took them back to being classical elves, which were dangerous creatures humans needed to fear that hung out with the dead, and with goblins and such.

The archetype exists in WoW, but as a part of the Horde.

But that's just it, the core of the more recent Tolkien archetype is elves that are allied with humans. The radical new thing Tolkien did was make elves not entirely the enemies of men, as they always had been. Even he kept them mostly enemies. This idea exploded over time and is now the current most popular and powerful nonhuman archetype in fantasy fiction: human-like elves that will fight alongside humans.

Remember that old animated Hobbit movie? They made the elf king look like some kind of shriveled frog creature? That's because the core of the classical elf archetype was something humans had to fear. People couldn't comprehend that Tolkien had created something different. Metzen always brings old ideas into all his writing. He studied this stuff, so it was the obvious choice for him on how to present his Blood Elves, in the classical style.

But just because the current archetype of the Tolkien elf is new, doesn't mean it will just go away. It's too ingrained now as a part of worldwide culture. That is something that is missing from WoW and people will always notice its absence. Especially since High Elves are right there.

[Deleted]

They've pretty much dumped all pretenses of civility on their Discord. They're cheerily discussing things like wishing suicide on Ion, getting him fired, and gangrape.

From this picture only one person said something disgusting, while the post of another one needs context. Not sure why are others in the picture, if you wanted to post an example of how bad that Discord is.

If you want High Elves badly, vote with your wallet. People quitting en masse brought an end to Cataclysm's self-destructive "casuals fuck off" design philosophy, and won us transmog as a bonus--something Blizzard had told us for years we didn't really want and weren't getting, but suddenly managed to conjure up once it became obvious they either gave players what they wanted or their game was going to keep bleeding subs by the millions until it died.

Completely agree. If Blizzard Devs are so adamant against High Elves that they didn't even look into so many requests even when the issue exploded so much, then nothing is going to convince them except money. Though, unless BfA is massive success, Blizzard is going to keep losing subs and money anyway and at some point would just throw anything at the players to keep them in.

[Shinkishi]

I already defended it. I agree with the devs that blurring the lines will damage the game. They don't want to take the chance and poke that beast. There's nothing else to say.

Again, that wasn't the contention. The situations back then are the same as the ones now, that was the disagreement. Now you agree with the devs, okay, I don't care about that. The argument that they aren't the same because now you agree with them is a bad argument.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I can... sympathize with this. And not saying you're wrong, but I ask you to leave your personal scope for a moment and try to put yourself in someone of this position's shoes: you have a group of people to address where their voices do not speak in unison (in the sense this sort of request had different suggestions) and react differently. You need a direct message with little fluff so to speak, otherwise might lead to misinterpretations (there were already some). The kind of references you speak of, could very well make people feel it's personal that their feedback was not good enough, know what I mean? I'm not saying his statement was perfect, but I understand why it was the way it was: short and addressing the points they feel problematic.

As someone who personally did some conceptual edits, I wouldn't have felt it would have been personal, and same goes for many people that gave ideas. This is my personal view, but it is one I share with many others. You need to understand that many of us knew from the start that "No" was the most likely answer, regardless of our input. To me, actually acknowledging the feedback is simply just better than not even bringing it up at all.

And that's the big issue of it, we are talking about hundreds of people that gave different ideas and concepts, that were passionate about it, with extended official threads, and all that to in the moment of truth simply mean nothing. And this is the point I am making. Ion could have handled things better.

Nevertheless, you might feel this way now because this is a sore subject at the moment. But in my personal opinion, very much doubt so. This is not a single man's decision, I'm sure the team behind it looked through these regardless of the outcome. It might be even somewhat useful to try to figure out what people think it's amiss the Void Elves (with limitations)

Indeed, I am not even putting the blame on Ion personally, he's for all I know only the mouthpiece for this, I do not know of the internal discussions. I'm not blaming him, he's only the face of it for better or worse. If it was all his words, or a pre-worded statement, it still carries the same issues, and I don't know what would be worse, to have left a developer speak of the cuff, or to prepare such a callous statement.

It's not about "I put work into this and daddy didn't see," it's about how so many people put of their own into this during 7 months of discussion, it as because part of the community was invested on this, yet they got so little out of their feedback.

[Deleted]

The fan art and concepts and stuff? They've overwhelmingly been low effort recolors of blood elf art, towns, emblems, and aesthetics, all the things Blizzard have now said they aren't willing to trade to cross-faction playable races. Across three forums I frequent, this thread contains pretty much the only halfway unique take on high elves out there, and a good chunk of the regulars on the official board rejected these ideas, saying they weren't pretty or high/blood elvish enough. Kinda reminds me of something Ion said yesterday...

The fan art, the concepts, the actual requests, arguments and explanations. Ion saying that all people want are blue eyes and that they want them because they saw Alleria says that he has very little idea what pro-High Elf people asked for and has never even seen the fan art at least as a visual reference of the requests, even though these are very hard to miss if you are even a little interested in what the playerbase is discussing.

[Garfurion]

Thank you.

As for what pertains to me specifically:

Indeed, I do perceive a fundamental disagreement on what dismissal entails, and that is basically just a matter of perspective.

A simple "We heard you, we are aware of the ideas and points you that what High Elves have brought and we appreciate your passion, but..." That would have been a world of difference for many people, whether you believe it or not. Of course some people would still just not accept it either way, but I am only speaking for me and the people that think alike.

But to give basically the same arguments he did months ago, the same arguments that were seen as flawed and that sparked the whole conversation, feels dismissive. Regardless if is answer was the same, regardless if he considers that maintaining faction identity is the priority, is the lack of acknowledgement of the poits brought up in the months of discussion that irks me and other. What was it worth then, all the discussions, all the feedback if we didn't get even a "We are aware of the points you made"?

That is what feels dismissive, regardless of his answer being No



Even you in this throw away line at least pay some lip service to the Pro High Elf side, and is the lack of anything like this what feels disheartening.

Ion is just not the right person to address these kinds of questions. I think he focuses more on game mechanics than game lore which is understandable given his background. I agree that he should have worded his answer better. He also should just have stuck to gameplay reasons. I can imagine Ornyx wasn't happy yesterday since he said to the community that feedback was passed on to the devs and they would track the debate. Nothing in Ion's answer last night indicated he was really aware of the pro/anti- High Elf feedback in anyway. He could have given the same answer 4-8 weeks ago. On the topic of the GCD he was clearly much more aware of specific community complaints.