Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

so... Previous titles of LTT "Ranger lord" or his advisor "Ranger general Halduron Brightwing" are nonexistant thing? or maybe previous "ranger general Sylvanas Windrunner"? Man you miss the point that "ranger theme" show on the fields, not in the city.

Is it controversial now to say that Blood Elves haven't really being using their ranger themes? Blood Elves have for the last few years focusing their lore in other aspects, and nothing wrong with that, but to say they have been "on par" on terms of relevance to other aspects of Blood Elf lore is pretty wild.

[protip]

*cough* Pandas.

I'm amazed that people still bring this up...

I mean, I get that people want an excuse, but pandas don't tell the story you want them to.

[Darththeo]

TL;DR, blah, blah, blah semantics.

The bolded part tells me all I really need to know about you. Because you don't see something, you think it doesn't exist. I guess oxygen doesn't exist to you, then? Because faction identity does exist, whether you see it or not. What's more is that Blizzard actually used faction identity as the reason HE's won't be given to the Alliance. YIKES. Must feel bad for something non-existent, non-bullshit, to be used to refute your entire stance. But since you don't care about any of this (obviously), no point in further discussion.

Oxygen is observable. You can observe its presence as well as it absence. If you are going to mock my stance, at least makes sure you do so well.

Faction Identity does not exist ... it's fictional, both in game and in our world. Shamans were given to Alliance and Paladins to the Horde in BC ... taking away "Faction Identity." A typical alliance style race given to the horde is the same expansion. Later on, Worgen a more "savage" race (a trait original Horde) was given to the Alliance. Pandaren provided to both factions. Now the elves models have swapped factions. If Faction Identity ever matter it was Vanilla ... it doesn't exist now. Your only argument for its existence is literally "Blizzard says it exists."

Again, I can't believe I have to explain something this simple to you: I am arguing that their reasons are bullshit and they fans deserve a better explanation. You seem not to be capable of understand that concept. I guess it is too hard for you actually to bother to take more than two seconds to think on a subject.

- - - Updated - - -

And Pandaren were conceived of as neutral, implemented as neutral and their entire plotline built around their neutrality and the balance between the factions. If they couldn't make Pandaren work, making Blood Elves neutral will be a far worse mistake.

Actually, they could make Blood Elves neutral and have it work ... but they chose not to. They could have done a reworked starting Zone that takes place post MoP where at the end you decide to declare for the Alliance or Horde.

Also, no where can I find that Blizzard feels Pandaren were a mistake. The only quote can be read either as Blizzard or Ghostcrawler was not a fan of it. And given Ghostcrawler no longer works for Blizzard it is hard to say. I can't seem to find it, but they have stated that they are open to another neutral race if the story permits.

And I can argue also that Blood elves are ALREADY a neutral race given Void Elves are blood elves that are void infused.

[Enkrypt]

Oxygen is observable. You can observe its presence as well as it absence. If you are going to mock my stance, at least makes sure you do so well.

Faction Identity does not exist ... it's fictional, both in game and in our world. Shamans were given to Alliance and Paladins to the Horde in BC ... taking away "Faction Identity." A typical alliance style race given to the horde is the same expansion. Later on, Worgen a more "savage" race (a trait original Horde) was given to the Alliance. Pandaren provided to both factions. Now the elves models have swapped factions. If Faction Identity ever matter it was Vanilla ... it doesn't exist now. Your only argument for its existence is literally "Blizzard says it exists."

Again, I can't believe I have to explain something this simple to you: I am arguing that their reasons are bullshit and they fans deserve a better explanation. You seem not to be capable of understand that concept. I guess it is too hard for you actually to bother to take more than two seconds to think on a subject.

Uh, come again? My faction pride is observable in this very thread. Our faction has an identity, and more specifically, we're the faction that can be identified as the one with Blood Elves in it. Quite observable. Which, in this context, is more than sufficient. Perhaps you need another lesson in semantics? I'm going to mock each and every time you pretend that a counter-opinion to yours is false because you can't perceive it. Until you come correct and quit acting like it's bullshit simply because you say so, you're not deserving enough for me to think for more than two seconds.

After all, this all started because you said Blizzard's excuse was bullshit. And you forget, that's just your opinion. Not a universal fact. I, among the other anti-High Elfers, clearly don't agree with you.

You've pretty much just degraded to insulting me and anyone who confronts you, instead of useful discussion. Therefore, I'll chalk you up as another exhausted, defeated protester. Desperation for something you supposedly don't care about is not your strong suit, Darth.

[Obelisk Kai]

Actually, they could make Blood Elves neutral and have it work ... but they chose not to. They could have done a reworked starting Zone that takes place post MoP where at the end you decide to declare for the Alliance or Horde.

Also, no where can I find that Blizzard feels Pandaren were a mistake. The only quote can be read either as Blizzard or Ghostcrawler was not a fan of it. And given Ghostcrawler no longer works for Blizzard it is hard to say. I can't seem to find it, but they have stated that they are open to another neutral race if the story permits.

And I can argue also that Blood elves are ALREADY a neutral race given Void Elves are blood elves that are void infused.

Yep that's what they said when Ghostcrawler made the comment, he's only one man, his views are not representative etc. etc.

You know what backs up what he was saying?

The fact that it has been six years since a neutral race was introduced, that they have had multiple opportunities to do so since and have not done so and that in recent dev interviews the Game Director has specifically ruled out making an existing race neutral on the grounds of faction diversity.

[bowlink]

His point is obviously that they learned from the mistake, and aren't willing to repeat it.

Flying has no relevance here. The Pandaren scapegoat has been overused as a goalpost for ushering in the High Elves on precedent alone.

Catch up, little tomato.

the pandaren argument still hold as the same with the flying debackle. the Genie is out of the bottle and its not going back in.

pandaren were put in by blizzard and they regret it. because they blur the lines.
and with flying blizzard reget it because everyone just want to fly over their content and bypass all the mobs and traps they have set up on ground level.

all the criteria blizzard had given for allied races apply to high elves.
all the criteria blizzard has given for not high elves also applies the void elves. and plenty of the other allied races.

so if they don't want high elves as a race. they should have said "we don't want to put in high elves for the alliance period" thats it, but don't come up with bullshit reasons that you can undermine with next to no effort. and also don't be a callous jerk like Ion trying to be funny.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Okay, so in terms of what's in the future for High Elves narratively, I really hope they get rid of the Silver Covenant; cause if they aren't actually going to use them FOR something, they are just using space that PLAYABLE races could be using.

And this all harkens back to the decision of creating the SC in WotLK. Why give them a place in the narrative in the first place? If the SC had been LESS of a High Elven opposition and simply a DALARANI opposition to Blood Elves and the Horde, things would have been much different.

Alas, I hope something to happen to them:

-Simply let them be for a while, until Blizz wants to add Half Elves for the alliance and they get set up through the SC, harking back to Vereesa, Elisande's callout and all that jazz. It would be an organic progression.

-Tie the Silver Covenant to the Void Elves. Have Silver Covenant NPC's become Void Elves, have Void Elves join the Silver Covenant. Show us some cross pollination. Could be as simple as adding some "Silver Covenant Spellbows" NPC's with Void Elf troops and have some of them Be Void Elves. On a deeper level, have them work together on Azeroth, if the SC is not to return to Dalaran, have the two forces work as a coalition, implying that the future of both groups is to merge. In terms of "branding" The SC has a lot more trust within the alliance than the Void Elves themselves, so tying Void Elves into that would give them more trust as alliance members, and giving the SC more troops. Given that both their leaders are sisters, ultimately VE and SC-HE would be two organizations of "Thalassian Elves" in the alliance, working together, through different means.

-Or just kill off the Silver Covenant, blow it up to smithereens. The laziest one, though probably effective nonetheless.

[Rhlor]

Is it controversial now to say that Blood Elves haven't really being using their ranger themes? Blood Elves have for the last few years focusing their lore in other aspects, and nothing wrong with that, but to say they have been "on par" on terms of relevance to other aspects of Blood Elf lore is pretty wild.

ranger theme it is a fundamental part of the society of quelthalas, they are the main defense force of the kingdom

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I'm amazed that people still bring this up...

I mean, I get that people want an excuse, but pandas don't tell the story you want them to.

Well pandas are pretty obviously a race that exists on both sides, so in terms of gameplay/silhouette they are evidently precedence.

That's not to say that there is more nuance about notions about faction identity and how Pandaren exists outside that dichotomy due to their own themes, but Pandaren are a good argument in terms of mechanics. Don't see much people calling for the removal of pandaren on grounds that they make impossible to distinguish them on PvP.

So on grounds of mechanics, at least, I would say that Pandaren are a pro helf argument.

[Nubulous]

How is this 230 pages almost....

I guess having FOUR Elf races to choose from isnt enough for some people...SMH

The fact that THIS is the most triggering thing for people on MMOC and the Main Forums shows what the community really cares about now I guess...

Might as well just make wow a full on RP game with no attention to anything else other than xmogs and races

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

ranger theme it is a fundamental part of the society of quelthalas, they are the main defense force of the kingdom

You have dismissed my point about the theme not being used on the last few years; I'm saying that the Ranger themes have been underused in comparison to other aspects, like the Blood Knights. As someone that enjoys the ranger themes on elves, its sad to see so little development of them. We could have had the Farstriders have far more meaningful appearances in places like Zandalar, they would have made a great expeditionary force.

[Enkrypt]

the pandaren argument still hold as the same with the flying debackle. the Genie is out of the bottle and its not going back in.

pandaren were put in by blizzard and they regret it. because they blur the lines.
and with flying blizzard reget it because everyone just want to fly over their content and bypass all the mobs and traps they have set up on ground level.

all the criteria blizzard had given for allied races apply to high elves.
all the criteria blizzard has given for not high elves also applies the void elves. and plenty of the other allied races.

so if they don't want high elves as a race. they should have said "we don't want to put in high elves for the alliance period" thats it, but don't come up with bullshit reasons that you can undermine with next to no effort. and also don't be a callous jerk like Ion trying to be funny.

The Pandaren argument NEVER held water. We're talking about a race that, from the ground up, was designed to be a neutral race that launched for both factions simultaneously. That isn't even close to a precedent for saying, "We should get High Elves a decade later! Muh Elves!" No, not in any way, shape, form, or la-la land that exists in your head. If Elves had originally been planned to release for both factions, you'd maybe have an argument here, but since that's not the case, you're just spinning your wheels. Did you guys just derp during the Q&A where Ion literally conveys that adding High Elves at this stage of the game would be a disservice to the Horde? Did your brains just turn off? We've had the race for a looooong time. It belongs to our faction. We are identified by it, and you can't have it.

They regret Pandaren for more reasons than "blurred lines". If that's all you're resting your argument on, you're going to need to do better than that. From a story point-of-view, they are as neutral, and boring, as their race is. And not to mention highly unattractive.

For the second time, the aspect of flying has no relevance in the arena of High Elves, Blood Elves, and/or faction identity. You'd be wise to not reach for straws so easily. That's... not a good argument. There have been hundreds of things done and undone in WoW. Let's not pretend all of those trials and errors are precedents for adding High Elves.

"All the criteria..."? That could be said for Murlocs. That could be said for Taunka. That could be said for literally any creature alive in the Warcraft universe. This does not further your agenda, either.

They don't want High Elves as a race on the Alliance. I'm pretty sure Ion Hazzikostas said, "If you want to play a light-skinned elf... The Horde is there for you." So, uh, wish granted?

I could easily ask you not to be so dim and soft-handed. I can respond in any way I'd like to you, as long as it adheres to the forum's rules. You don't get to tell me how I can and cannot reply to you. You can, however, ignore me if you don't like it.

[bowlink]

I could easily ask you not to be so dim and soft-handed. I can respond in any way I'd like to you, as long as it adheres to the forum's rules. You don't get to tell me how I can and cannot reply to you. You can, however, ignore me if you don't like it.

i wasn't talking about you. i was talking about Ion trying to be funny.

[Darththeo]

Uh, come again? My faction pride is observable in this very thread. Our faction has an identity, and more specifically, we're the faction that can be identified as the one with Blood Elves in it. Quite observable. Which, in this context, is more than sufficient. Perhaps you need another lesson in semantics? I'm going to mock each and every time you pretend that a counter-opinion to yours is false because you can't perceive it. Until you come correct and quit acting like it's bullshit simply because you say so, you're not deserving enough for me to think for more than two seconds.

Faction Pride =/= Faction Identity ... people like sports team, but I don't same individual teams have "identities" that are in anyway unique. However, there are people who believe being a fan of one team makes you different ... it doesn't. Also what faction has Blood Elves because to me it's both ... Void Elves are Blood elves. That's a fact. They aren't different culturally outside of belief in using the Void energies (and if you say that is enough, than culturally High Elves would also be different, thus proving Blizzard to be speaking BS).

After all, this all started because you said Blizzard's excuse was bullshit. And you forget, that's just your opinion. Not a universal fact. I, among the other anti-High Elfers, clearly don't agree with you.

Yes, and it's your right to be 100% wrong ... like Flat Earthers. No argument is going to convince you because you basically have decided to believe whatever Blizzard says rather than actually look at the actions.

You've pretty much just degraded to insulting me and anyone who confronts you, instead of useful discussion. Therefore, I'll chalk you up as another exhausted, defeated protester. Desperation for something you supposedly don't care about is not your strong suit, Darth.

And you haven't been insulting to me? You pretty much have the entire time you have the entire time. Don't throw stones in glass houses.

[protip]

Is it controversial now to say that Blood Elves haven't really being using their ranger themes? Blood Elves have for the last few years focusing their lore in other aspects, and nothing wrong with that, but to say they have been "on par" on terms of relevance to other aspects of Blood Elf lore is pretty wild.

It's true they haven't been using them as much as their mage and Blood Knight themes in recent story developments, but the Farstriders are still a major part of Blood Elf culture. Trying to claim them as something that separates Blood Elves and High Elves is pretty ridiculous.

Well pandas are pretty obviously a race that exists on both sides, so in terms of gameplay/silhouette they are evidently precedence.

That's not to say that there is more nuance about notions about faction identity and how Pandaren exists outside that dichotomy due to their own themes, but Pandaren are a good argument in terms of mechanics. Don't see much people calling for the removal of pandaren on grounds that they make impossible to distinguish them on PvP.

So on grounds of mechanics, at least, I would say that Pandaren are a pro helf argument.

It's not really about mechanics though, which is why I don't understand people making that argument. It's about the themes, which in the case of Pandaren justify their neutrality. The fact that the only exception to that issue has a clear reason for being such an exception means that you can't logically apply the same rules to other new races unless their themes also justify neutrality, even if it had been considered successful.

Faction Identity does not exist ... it's fictional, both in game and in our world. Shamans were given to Alliance and Paladins to the Horde in BC ... taking away "Faction Identity." A typical alliance style race given to the horde is the same expansion. Later on, Worgen a more "savage" race (a trait original Horde) was given to the Alliance. Pandaren provided to both factions. Now the elves models have swapped factions. If Faction Identity ever matter it was Vanilla ... it doesn't exist now. Your only argument for its existence is literally "Blizzard says it exists."

Yeah, Blizzard says it exists, and they design the game. If they think it's something that's important to how they design the game... it's just true. It's that simple. You may not agree with how they design the game, but you're not going to convince anyone by just claiming that the most successful PC game of all time is poorly designed on the basis that you personally don't understand the process. They have their own criteria for choosing new races, just like with all other content they add to the game. The only reason you don't feel like this makes sense is because you're choosing not to take them at their word. There's no way they can solve that for you.

Actually, they could make Blood Elves neutral and have it work ... but they chose not to. They could have done a reworked starting Zone that takes place post MoP where at the end you decide to declare for the Alliance or Horde.

Also, no where can I find that Blizzard feels Pandaren were a mistake. The only quote can be read either as Blizzard or Ghostcrawler was not a fan of it. And given Ghostcrawler no longer works for Blizzard it is hard to say. I can't seem to find it, but they have stated that they are open to another neutral race if the story permits.

And I can argue also that Blood elves are ALREADY a neutral race given Void Elves are blood elves that are void infused.

We have the Ghostcrawler quote, which describes the collective decision to add Pandaren as a neutral race, the fact that it hasn't happened again, and the fact that they continue to bring up faction identity when discussing future developments. As always, their stance is that if it makes sense for the game as a whole, they are willing to make exceptions. However, they learn from their mistakes, and all evidence suggests that neutral races are not something they're interested in pursuing again. If that wasn't an issue, you'd probably already be playing a High Elf.

[Enkrypt]

Okay, so in terms of what's in the future for High Elves narratively, I really hope they get rid of the Silver Covenant; cause if they aren't actually going to use them FOR something, they are just using space that PLAYABLE races could be using.

Since when does every race exhibited within the game need to be playable?

[Darththeo]

Yep that's what they said when Ghostcrawler made the comment, he's only one man, his views are not representative etc. etc.

You know what backs up what he was saying?

The fact that it has been six years since a neutral race was introduced, that they have had multiple opportunities to do so since and have not done so and that in recent dev interviews the Game Director has specifically ruled out making an existing race neutral on the grounds of faction diversity.

The problem with that is we effectively have 3 races that are cross faction right now ... so I take that statement with a rather large grain of salt. It is unlikely we will get a neutral race in an expansion called Battle for Azeroth as it doesn't fit. It is possible in other expansions. Honestly, I think part of the reason Pandaren didn't work out is why would any Pandaren stay Horde after Garrosh's actions? Yes, I know we are island Pandaren as playable, but just why? It seems more that they wrote themselves into a corner with it.

[Varodoc]

The Silver Covenant and Highvale will suffer such a terrible tragedy that they will either die brutally or accept Alleria's gift and infuse themselves with the Void. This way, Blizzard will finally put an end to this argument that has divided the community for far too long. Mark my words. I have always been right in my predictions. People laughed at me when I predicted playable Void Elves weeks before the leaks even came out. Well, they are not laughing anymore. And, indeed, Blizzard has already foreshadowed this by having seveeral Quel'dorei Wayfarers travel to Telogrus Rift to study the Void extensively.

[Darththeo]

Yeah, Blizzard says it exists, and they design the game. If they think it's something that's important to how they design the game... it's just true. It's that simple. You may not agree with how they design the game, but you're not going to convince anyone by just claiming that the most successful PC game of all time is poorly designed on the basis that you personally don't understand the process. They have their own criteria for choosing new races, just like with all other content they add to the game. The only reason you don't feel like this makes sense is because you're choosing not to take them at their word. There's no way they can solve that for you.

I am a Star Wars Fan, even when George Lucas was in charge of it, I disagreed with him when he said things that were clearly not supported by his work. I am sorry, actions speak louder than words. You cannot expect me to ignore that every expansion since BC has eroded faction identity to suddenly believe it matters and exists again because they say it does. That's nonsense.

We have the Ghostcrawler quote, which describes the collective decision to add Pandaren as a neutral race, the fact that it hasn't happened again, and the fact that they continue to bring up faction identity when discussing future developments. As always, their stance is that if it makes sense for the game as a whole, they are willing to make exceptions. However, they learn from their mistakes, and all evidence suggests that neutral races are not something they're interested in pursuing again. If that wasn't an issue, you'd probably already be playing a High Elf.

I have no desire to play a High Elf honestly ... I play Horde because I like Red over Blue that's it. Literally even if they made High Elf playable, I am not likely to jump to Alliance. I just find their reasoning to why it's not playable to be nonsensical at best and insulting to the fans at worst. It is pure bullshit ... you can agree with their bullshit, it doesn't make it less bullshit.

I have played Alliance (most of Cataclysm and the start of MoP) and I have mostly played Horde. There is literally no objective difference, it's literally 100% subjective.

[Enkrypt]

The Silver Covenant and Highvale will suffer such a terrible tragedy that they will either die brutally or accept Alleria's gift and infuse themselves with the Void. This way, Blizzard will finally put an end to this argument that has divided the community for far too long. Mark my words. I have always been right in my predictions. People laughed at me when I predicted playable Void Elves weeks before the leaks even came out. Well, they are not laughing anymore. And, indeed, Blizzard has already foreshadowed this by having seveeral Quel'dorei Wayfarers travel to Telogrus Rift to study the Void extensively.

Uh, nobody here will deny that Void Elves are the half-baked appeasement offering to those who wanted High Elves.

Maybe a hard pill to swallow, but it's definitely what the Alliance will have to work with for the years to come.