1. #4781
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Bait and switch? Ok, you got a laugh out of me. Yes, the developers are trying to trick us by publicly stating one thing whilst secretly planning to do another. I am sure they would just love everything they say in years to come to be challenged by people saying 'well you were secretly plotting High Elves so how can we be sure you aren't lying to us now?'

    Take off the tinfoil hat please. If they ever decide to do High Elves, which apparently is when someone figures out how to make High Elves non pale and non majestic, we will know about it. Until that time all we have is the near decade and a half of statements and lore saying it's not going to happen.
    Because nothing says "we're just drumming up hype for later" like explaining the problems something might cause for the game as a whole.

  2. #4782
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The discussion is not limited to a pro High Elf bubble. If you want a pro High Elf bubble I suggest you join their discord.



    Because I believe playable High Elves undermine the faction identity of the Horde and the Blood Elves. And I won't 'leave them too it' for the same reason they won't stop, they hope to persuade Blizzard through the expression of their opinion and I want my opinion to be heard too. Which it was because Ion basically said everything on the matter I have ever wanted a Blizzard dev to say. So that felt good.



    Bait and switch? Ok, you got a laugh out of me. Yes, the developers are trying to trick us by publicly stating one thing whilst secretly planning to do another. I am sure they would just love everything they say in years to come to be challenged by people saying 'well you were secretly plotting High Elves so how can we be sure you aren't lying to us now?'

    Take off the tinfoil hat please. If they ever decide to do High Elves, which apparently is when someone figures out how to make High Elves non pale and non majestic, we will know about it. Until that time all we have is the near decade and a half of statements and lore saying it's not going to happen.
    You are such an aggressive poster I'm not going to lie, I was only asking a question and you attack, it's not like the Dev's haven't pulled bait and switch before right?

    Also your faction "Identity" does not exist anymore so why blab about it it exists as much as the alliance one does ie Panderen, Void Elves and Nightbourne those 3 races alone shatter that identity so you should really stop deluding yourself, I'm not here to fight with you as I'm not interested in High Elves but you clearly do not see whats right in front of you.

    I found these images online and Void/Blood elves share the exact same combat animations as do the Nightbourn/Nightelf:

    i.imgur.com/e9N1BSZ
    .png

    Same images now but with the results:

    i.imgur.com/PB5W9eY
    .png

    Silly forum limitations.

    I don't see a huge difference there personally, so yeah faction identity already doesn't exist stop pretending otherwise.

  3. #4783
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Yet those are the two groups Blizzard has specifically ruled out. High Elves were more emphatically ruled out than Wildhammer, but I reckon Wildhammer weren't considered because any perceived cultural differences were insufficient to justify an allied race when the physical differences are non-existant.

    And no, it's not suspicious at all for the rename of the island team. It's just another example of the pro High Elf community looking at patterns in tea-leaves and seeing the potential for playable High Elves, conveniently ignoring the development team saying very plainly it isn't going to happen.
    No, they quite plainly in English stated that there is no immediate plan not there is no plans. In fact, the quote was that they don't want to Blur faction lines in BfA not they never want to blur the line.

    It's fine if you don't want High Elves, but it doesn't excuse you from acting just like the Pro Helfers by twisting the words of the Devs to suit your view while trashing those doing the same thing.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  4. #4784
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    No, they quite plainly in English stated that there is no immediate plan not there is no plans. In fact, the quote was that they don't want to Blur faction lines in BfA not they never want to blur the line.

    It's fine if you don't want High Elves, but it doesn't excuse you from acting just like the Pro Helfers by twisting the words of the Devs to suit your view while trashing those doing the same thing.
    Speaking of twisting words, you're exaggerating every point you make here. He said "no plans for the near term," and that they don't want to blur faction lines especially because of the theme of BfA.

  5. #4785
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    Speaking of twisting words, you're exaggerating every point you make here. He said "no plans for the near term," and that they don't want to blur faction lines especially because of the theme of BfA.
    That's literally not twisting words. I didn't make him say something he didn't. Unlike what Obelisk Kai is doing where he is saying they outright deny High Elf ever being playable.

    Keep in mind, I am not saying we will or we will not get High Elves ... I honestly don't care. The pro-Helfers are at least more honest than the Anti-Helfers in my view. It is quite clear the Devs haven't shut the door completely on playable High Elves and for all we know we could get them in BfA depending on how the story plays out.

    We know they have made changes mid expansion in both Legion and WoD.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2018-05-04 at 10:53 AM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  6. #4786
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    No, they quite plainly in English stated that there is no immediate plan not there is no plans. In fact, the quote was that they don't want to Blur faction lines in BfA not they never want to blur the line.

    It's fine if you don't want High Elves, but it doesn't excuse you from acting just like the Pro Helfers by twisting the words of the Devs to suit your view while trashing those doing the same thing.
    That was a platitude. You focus on the platitude while deliberately ignoring the meat of what he said when he ruled out playable High Elves.

    He said no. He offered the reasons why he said no. And then he said things might change in the future.

    Sure they can. Just like a future developer might decide to do playable Murlocs. Even though we know playable Murlocs aren't going to happen and the idea is laughable, but the theoretical possibility exists.

    In fact, this attitude of focusing on Ion's platitude comes across like this



  7. #4787
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That was a platitude. You focus on the platitude while deliberately ignoring the meat of what he said when he ruled out playable High Elves.

    He said no. He offered the reasons why he said no. And then he said things might change in the future.

    Sure they can. Just like a future developer might decide to do playable Murlocs. Even though we know playable Murlocs aren't going to happen and the idea is laughable, but the theoretical possibility exists.

    In fact, this attitude of focusing on Ion's platitude comes across like this
    I don't think you understand the word platitude.

    I don't think you understand the concept I am arguing for. I am saying you aren't better and using the same bad arguments you are getting annoyed at with the Pro-Helfers. In other words, you aren't more correct than they are and yet you like them feel you are.

    I also disagree with the Devs that faction identity is actually a thing. When I think of what that means, I don't see it in WoW. Your side decided that "I must be crazy" rather than recognizing that people aren't all the same and some people will disagree over what a made up term means.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2018-05-04 at 11:11 AM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  8. #4788
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I don't think you understand the word platitude.

    I don't think you understand the concept I am arguing for. I am saying you aren't better and using the same bad arguments you are getting annoyed at with the Pro-Helfers. In other words, you aren't more correct than they are and yet you like them feel you are.

    I also disagree with the Devs that faction identity is actually a thing. When I think of what that means, I don't see it in WoW. Your side decided that "I must be crazy" rather than recognizing that people aren't all the same and some people will disagree over what a made up term means.
    Really dude do not even care about that guy, his points are totally delusional at this point...

    Just time will put everything in it's place, nobody believed HE would be added like in the next patch you know? And while they do not plan nothing with HE for B4A, we should ask again in middle expansion when is where things got carried forward and more decisions are made, now we are just discussing about the points and how they would look and all those things, but the final decision is not going to come anytime soon, being it a yes or a no.

    Just share your ideas, share some people's artwork, discuss points, and enjoy talking about what you like until you want, the end of this kind of threads is far from getting reached.

  9. #4789
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I don't think you understand the word platitude.

    I don't think you understand the concept I am arguing for. I am saying you aren't better and using the same bad arguments you are getting annoyed at with the Pro-Helfers. In other words, you aren't more correct than they are and yet you like them feel you are.

    I also disagree with the Devs that faction identity is actually a thing. When I think of what that means, I don't see it in WoW. Your side decided that "I must be crazy" rather than recognizing that people aren't all the same and some people will disagree over what a made up term means.
    Platitude: noun
    a remark or statement, especially one with a moral content, that has been used too often to be interesting or thoughtful.

    Saying anything can change in the future is a platitude. It is an almost meaningless statement that they can use when they deliver bad news to anyone and it is not so much to give the person receiving the bad news hope as to cover their own asses should, at some point in the future following an unimaginable change in circumstances, decide to do this.

    At the moment they don't want to do this for reasons of gameplay, for reasons of lore, for reasons of faction distinctiveness. And just because YOU have decided that faction identity doesn't matter, an odd statement given how we are about to embark on the biggest war between the factions yet seen and the forums are filled with invective between the Alliance and Horde, does not mean that your singular opinion, the opinion of a fan with an agenda, needs to be accommodated.

    After all, the faction divide is the greatest and almost certainly insuperable obstacle to playable Alliance High Elves. Your agenda demands that the faction wall, the very foundation of the game's world and lore, be denigrated and dimissed as much as possible.

    Thankfully the developers disagree with this. The developers rightly prize the division between the factions and they are doing the utmost to ensure that the Alliance and Horde remain visually and thematically distinct. Where models have crossed that wall, such as the Nightborne and Void Elves, those groups have been been given distinct physical skins and, far more importantly, themes as far from their parents as it possible to go.
    Who could ever confuse the urbane and magical Nightborne with the Druidic and arboreal Night Elves? Nobody save those few engaged in reductio ad absurdum, determined to pretend a Nightborne and a Night Elf are as close as a Blood Elf and an Alliance High Elf and thereby justify the later as a playable race.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2018-05-04 at 11:34 AM.

  10. #4790
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    I have been playing my high elf paladin since early 2007 when the burning crusade released =)

  11. #4791
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Really dude do not even care about that guy, his points are totally delusional at this point...
    Need I remind you, one of us had their point of view validated by the developers last week and the other had their arguments completely rejected yet still seemingly persists in acting as if that didn't happen?

    One of us is indeed making delusional points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Just time will put everything in it's place, nobody believed HE would be added like in the next patch you know? And while they do not plan nothing with HE for B4A, we should ask again in middle expansion when is where things got carried forward and more decisions are made, now we are just discussing about the points and how they would look and all those things, but the final decision is not going to come anytime soon, being it a yes or a no.

    Just share your ideas, share some people's artwork, discuss points, and enjoy talking about what you like until you want, the end of this kind of threads is far from getting reached.
    As I said before, I thought the artwork and other concept art was an attempt at reinventing the wheel when it came to creating a 'pale, majestic High Elf'. After Ion's comments last week what you have to do now is akin to reinventing a wheel that is not round.

    When Blizzard did it they came up with Void Elves.

  12. #4792
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    After all, the faction divide is the greatest and almost certainly insuperable obstacle to playable Alliance High Elves. Your agenda demands that the faction wall, the very foundation of the game's world and lore, be denigrated and dimissed as much as possible.
    I disagree that it's the greatest obstacle. It's certainly the foundation of the world and lore, but it's a whole lot less than it used to be. Beyond just the Pandaren playable race being identical for both factions, the alliance and horde team up just about any time there's a truly existential threat. Sure that's less likely (at least to start) an expansion called "Battle for Azeroth", where it's made to look like the two sides are at the most odds again, but once the old gods start showing up or whatever, they'll start working with each other again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Thankfully the developers disagree with this. The developers rightly prize the division between the factions and they are doing the utmost to ensure that the Alliance and Horde remain visually and thematically distinct.
    Except for those darn Pandaren. Being dang literally identical for both sides.

  13. #4793
    And the problem with Pandaren, the reason Blizzard doesn't like the neutral race concept, is not the faction wall. Its that they made it so they couldn't tell a story with either of the Pandaren factions going forwards because they had no factional differences that relate to the Alliance or Horde. it was conceptual only, and they don't hate each other at all. (I seem to remember their faction leaders are about three steps from being a couple, and seven steps from making their own set of blue and red colored cubs)

    That is not a problem for Blood Elves and High Elves (or Void Elves and Vampire Undead Elves for that matter). Each is already established in the lore in one way or another and a story can be told for each quite easily within their own factions. They aren't neutral like the Pandaren. They are politically split along faction lines, which can make for some great storytelling.

  14. #4794
    Quote Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
    That is not a problem for Blood Elves and High Elves (or Void Elves and Vampire Undead Elves for that matter). Each is already established in the lore in one way or another and a story can be told for each quite easily within their own factions. They aren't neutral like the Pandaren. They are politically split along faction lines, which can make for some great storytelling.
    yes. Right just from Elisande point of view called "bedwarmers for human race"

  15. #4795
    Well people asked where all the High Elves are....Red Light District of Stormwind....which was near Player Housing, or was that the Cuttthroat Alley place near the Dwarven district? Also I seem to recall seeing a group of Void Elves that look like they are up to no good somewhere near the lake outside the Cathedral district. You can interact with them, but they more or less tell you to get lost.

  16. #4796
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by preludeoflight View Post
    I disagree that it's the greatest obstacle. It's certainly the foundation of the world and lore, but it's a whole lot less than it used to be. Beyond just the Pandaren playable race being identical for both factions, the alliance and horde team up just about any time there's a truly existential threat. Sure that's less likely (at least to start) an expansion called "Battle for Azeroth", where it's made to look like the two sides are at the most odds again, but once the old gods start showing up or whatever, they'll start working with each other again.



    Except for those darn Pandaren. Being dang literally identical for both sides.
    There should be a swear jar equivalent for every time someone mentions the Pandaren in this debate. So here comes the rote response.

    Pandaren were conceived of and implemented as a neutral race.

    The Pandaren storyline was structured around their neutrality and the balance between the factions.

    The Pandaren were an experiment to see if a neutral race could work.

    While I personally think the Pandaren succeeded as a race, the more widespread view is that the concept of a neutral race failed.

    The one dev who commented on Pandaren being neutral, Ghostcrawler, said that they weren't a fan of it overall. While of course this quote was attacked five years ago by the pro High Elf community as being the voice of one man (five years sheesh!) it is worth pointing out that there has been no neutral race added to the game in the past six years, that there were multiple opportunities to do so that have not been taken and that the last thing we heard from Blizzard (last week) is that a race identical to Blood Elves on the Alliance would be considered as blurring the faction wall too much.

    They created a neutral race in Pandaren as an experiment and made their neutrality the core of their theme. The concept of neutrality failed, and Pandaren appear to be fated to be the exception to the rule and they get away with it because neutrality is their theme. Blood Elves, who are High Elves, have been Horde for eleven years now and their look and theme are an intrinsic part of the Horde faction.

  17. #4797
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    They created a neutral race in Pandaren as an experiment and made their neutrality the core of their theme. The concept of neutrality failed, and Pandaren appear to be fated to be the exception to the rule and they get away with it because neutrality is their theme. Blood Elves, who are High Elves, have been Horde for eleven years now and their look and theme are an intrinsic part of the Horde faction.
    You're right, and as Ithekro pointed out, they definitely didn't like the way the neutral race played out for many reasons. I was merely point to the fact that visual similarity between factions isn't (and in my opinion, shouldn't be) an issue.

    That's one of the great things about High Elves is that they *aren't* neutral. Biologically the same as Blood Elves, but they're a group of elves that refused to forsake their allies when the rest of their race then. They're inherently Alliance, where as those that adopted the name Blood Elves aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    and that the last thing we heard from Blizzard (last week) is that a race identical to Blood Elves on the Alliance would be considered as blurring the faction wall too much.
    I can't dispute that point much — it is their opinion after all. I obviously disagree, but completely see where their stance is coming from. I just fall in the group of folks that know a soft "not now" from Blizzard is certainly not the death knell of a concept. Hell, even a "no", or "never" isn't anymore these days (a la players getting a 'purified' ashbringer or doomhammer, or all sorts of other things they said we'd never get.) They want to make the game they want to make, sure. They also want to make a game that fulfills people's fantasies. It seems that High Elf is one of those fantasies that's more popular than ever at the moment. Who knows where they fall if people continue clamoring for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    While I personally think the Pandaren succeeded as a race, the more widespread view is that the concept of a neutral race failed.
    I agree with you on that. I realize the issues they've had with storytelling like Ithekro drew attention, but I think they could come up with ways to do it if they really wanted to.

  18. #4798
    I think Auric being the new leader of the Angels is a really good sign. He's a "prominent" High Elf (literally called High Elf Representative) who's not Alleria or Vereesa, which means even if Vereesa is murdered here in a minute like people suspect, we still have a separate faction of High Elves to grab from for player characters.

    Also, I wouldn't count High Elves out of this expansion. A lot of the things Blizzard did leading up to the Q&A were really suspicious from a marketing point of view. I would wait for Blizzcon before we start cleaving with "get High Elves in the middle of next expansion".

    E: To make things relevant to the current page, I think neutral races were a wonderful success and would love for there to be more of them, but to be clear that's from a story point of view and not a model one. I don't think models/aesthetic were ever a good indicator for faction after Horde got their first pretty race. Pandas being on both sides doesn't hurt me or visibility in general I don't personally think, if it's red it's hostile and if it's green it isn't.
    Last edited by ninthbelief; 2018-05-04 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Added the bit at the end since the page is about neutral races.

  19. #4799
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by preludeoflight View Post
    I disagree that it's the greatest obstacle. It's certainly the foundation of the world and lore, but it's a whole lot less than it used to be. Beyond just the Pandaren playable race being identical for both factions, the alliance and horde team up just about any time there's a truly existential threat. Sure that's less likely (at least to start) an expansion called "Battle for Azeroth", where it's made to look like the two sides are at the most odds again, but once the old gods start showing up or whatever, they'll start working with each other again.



    Except for those darn Pandaren. Being dang literally identical for both sides.
    What i still don't understand is people claiming that faction wall is compounded by playable characters and not themes, lore, storytelling, and those kinda things that differentiates one faction from another.

    Just look how many games with factions but just humans or the same races in the two sides do the faction wall right, and in wow we have this thing with two factions with different races, and we got one race that is the exact same in both sides and even ideologically are the same playable-wise because huojin and tushui is not something that the player selects, is the faction what is at the election.

    And while BE are HE at least those two makes a more interesting dichotomy and HE could have a new idle or slightly different body porpotions alongside the expected hairstyles, faces and blah blah blah...

    But nah, let'z nut brek da facktion wool cuz allied stoned elven ppl will do it!!!!!

    Edit: And let's be real, even if tomorrow we litterally got humans, gnomes and dwarves in horde and orcs, trolls and tauren in the alliance, that's half the base playable of the two factions, are you going to tell me that HE being simillar but not the exact same as BE is that big of a deal?
    Last edited by Aldo Hawk; 2018-05-04 at 02:46 PM.

  20. #4800
    High Overlord Gerron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    so in vanila the dark irons were aligned and friendly with the horde? thats new to me, cause as far as i know they and the dark horde pretty much were enemies
    I thought that the Dark Irons and Leper Gnomes would join the Horde up until Cata. Probably best for WoW and the Horde that they didn't as before Cata DI were just evil. Leper Gnomes will probably still happen for the Horde though.

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