Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Aldo Hawk]

Look we all know that what Ion meant was looking like a Tolkien elf so let's not overcomplicate this. You can't make a High Elf that doesn't fit the standard fantasy Tolkien trope, it's a contradiction. That is why if High Elves ever become playable it will not be because the pro High Elf fanbase demonstrates a way around that contradiction that meets what the pro High Elf community wants (which is impossible, see the response from that community to Void Elves), but because Blizzard decides that the faction wall isn't that important.

Which I sincerely doubt is going to happen any time soon. Likely never.

Ok, set an imposibble goal for HE that came out of your mind, and then when someone points you the lack of meaning of that you simplify it in a way that it still means the same so nothing changes.

But then you came with the brilliant idea of pointing (again) the faction wall, that wall that seems soooo weak by your standards, as i'm going to repeat again, it's silly to think that such a race can damage it, while there's other things that are attached to the faction wall and races are just a fragment of it.

You are even just accepting that this all is the decision of Blizzard, and not a technical or factual problematic. (yeah, keep hiding on the interviews, like if they say anything meaningfull that was not effectively counter-argued xddddd).

[Ithekro]

Depending on which WoW population group you look at, Void Elves could be the fourth most played Alliance Race on Live, and the Sixth or Seventh most played race over all (its around the levels of Undead, Worgen, and Tauren). Highmountian and Lightforged are the least played at present.

But the Void Elves are nowhere near as popular as the Blood Elves, Humans, or Night Elves, which completely dominate the servers. Orcs, which are much farther down the list from the other three seem secure again the Void Elf numbers. High Elves would likely not dominate in light of the high Blood Elf, Human, and Night Elf populations. Not unless a serious number of Blood Elf players would rather play as a High Elf instead of being in the Horde. At which point the Horde has other issues than just a model, because the Blood Elves would still be there in the Horde.

[Garfurion]

I had a random thought this morning about the Blood Elves, the Sunwell, and the healing powers of the Light.

The Light heals all scars eventually, right. The elves have a high susceptibility to mutation due to fundamental universal powers. The Blood Elves evolved (slightly) from high Elves due to a light Fel taint in their city. The High Elves mutated from Night Elves due to the Sunwell (presumably, or perhaps being without the Well of Eternity and living in the daylight). The Night Elves evolved from Dark Trolls who settled around the original Well of Eternity. These Dark Trolls presumably evolved from other trolls prior to that also because of the Well of Eternity.

Both the Well of Eternity and the Sunwell were Arcane power sources that "corrupted" the trolls into a new form over time.

What if the renewed Sunwell, with it s heavy Light source of power, "heals" the Blood Elves....and devolves them back into first Night Elves, and then Trolls....or even skips a step and cleanses them to their core and turns them into Trolls (assuming of course that Troll is their based level species...and they aren't also Titanforged constructs originally like humans, dwarves, gnomes, and actually in some respects orcs).

That was my random thought. That the Blood Elves might devolve back to being Trolls via the healing of the Sunwell.

It will change them regardless because we know the elves mutate based on the power they are exposed to over time. It could just go either way right now. First its the eyes, but it could go in any direction, which would make them even more different from their High Elf roots, just as the Sunwell makes the High Elves different from their Night Elf roots.

According to Chronicle the exiled Highborne changed because of their distance from the new well of eternity.

The original Sunwell didn't restore the High Elves skin color or size so there is no reason to believe the new one will do that. The may evolve further overtime but most likely it will be limited to eye color options.

[Azerate]

Aren't high elves already in the game as blood elves?

[Sigxy]

Aren't high elves already in the game as blood elves?

This is true. It has also been said many times in this thread.

The theory has also been denied over and over for some odd reason by the pro high elves. :<

[Aldo Hawk]

This is true. It has also been said many times in this thread.

The theory has also been denied over and over for some odd reason by the pro high elves. :<

Denied?

Deny all you want that those high elves that you two are talking about are the horde ones, not alliance, from then you can start to make sense.

[Obelisk Kai]

Yes, that's the reason they gave.

And that isn't something that is going to change just because BFA ends. Or the expansion after ends. Or the expansion after that ends. High Elves as a playable race blurs the lines between the Alliance and Horde, compromises the faction integrity of the Horde and undermines the role of Blood Elves in the game.

This just doesn't follow. You can understand the reasons, but also could see Void elves not as a compromise. You do know you can understand someone's reasons and not accept them right as sound or valid right?

A compromise between two individuals has to be mutually satisfactory, as each side has a veto over it. The High Elf debate is not such a debate. It involves two groups, players who wish High Elves to be playable and Blizzard who hold the power and who have stated time and again that they wish for the Horde and the Alliance to be distinct and that playable High Elves undermines that wish. Void Elves are a compromise because they represent Blizzard moving somewhat towards the High Elf position by providing a High Elf variant, albeit one with it's own theme and flavour. As the pro High Elf community consists of more than one individual, the chances of such a compromise satisfying everyone were impossible without Blizzard compromising it's own red line on faction diversity.

The compromise of Void Elves was therefore designed to go as far as Blizzard was willing in providing a thalassian option to the Alliance that was not a High Elf. According to Warcraft realms, Void Elves now constitute four percent of all level 110 characters, outstripping several other Alliance races. In other words, the Void Elves are the most successful Allied race by a considerable margin. Whilst the extremely vocal pro High Elf community has been upset that the Blood Elf copy that is High Elves have not been added, the figures from Warcraft Realms reveal that Void Elves have worked as a compromise and have been adopted by many tens of thousands of players. Whilst it is arguable that some of those people are making do with what they have and would switch to a High Elf if given the chance, the fact they are playing Void Elves at all means that it has worked as a compromise.

Not everyone can be happy with a compromise involving so many individuals. The trick is to satisfy the most as you can without undermining your fundamental principles. Void Elves do that. Your misfortune is that you are one of the few outside the line Blizzard drew. That is unfortunate, but given the lines Blizzard drew in the Q and A it seems to be a misfortune they are able to tolerate.

Or faction identity evolves again and changes as the game evolves. Faction Identity now isn't the same as we had back in Vanilla or BC or Cata ... it changes like everything else. It is basically the reason why I don't see it as a thing in WoW, because what I think when I hear faction identity isn't what Blizzard does. There are two things that drive Blizzard's choices: Story and Balance ... story more important over balance.

You are right that faction identity evolves, but evolution implies building upon an earlier base. This is the case with the Horde, the faction has grown, broadened and expanded since the days of classic, but it has always felt like the Horde across all these years. Remember, you are driven by the goal of playable High Elves. Blizzard has identified faction diversity as the overriding and overwhelming reason why it is extremely unlikely to happen. You are incentivised by pursuit of your goal to diminish or minimise the importance of the lines between the two factions. Weakening the division between the faction would be one of the worst mistakes Blizzard could ever make, messing with the two most iconic 'sides' in video gaming, the Alliance and Horde.

Blizzard is right to resist that weakening.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok, set an imposibble goal for HE that came out of your mind, and then when someone points you the lack of meaning of that you simplify it in a way that it still means the same so nothing changes.

I have mentioned this previously, but I have always thought of the suggestions offered in this thread attempting to create a difference between High Elves and Blood Elves was akin to reinventing the wheel.

The developers will not allow playable High Elves as they would blur the lines between the factions. To paraphrase, the pale, tall, majestic elf fantasy is available on the Horde. To get playable High Elves, you would have to come up with a way to make playable High Elves that are none of those things.

In other words, the pro High Elf community would have to reinvent the wheel in such a way that the resulting wheel is no longer round. This, of course, is an unacceptable outcome for the pro High Elf community. Whilst they have talked the good talk regarding making High Elves different, they have rejected the Void Elves, the race that actually did just that. A High Elf variant with a unique look and flavour that nobody can possibly mistake for a Blood Elf.

Given that Void Elves now account for four percent of all level 110 characters and are the most popular allied race, the compromise has been accepted by the community at large.

But then you came with the brilliant idea of pointing (again) the faction wall, that wall that seems soooo weak by your standards, as i'm going to repeat again, it's silly to think that such a race can damage it, while there's other things that are attached to the faction wall and races are just a fragment of it.

Making a carbon copy of the most popular race on one side available to the other side is an egregious breach of the faction wall. Blizzard agrees. Just because you think it wouldn't cause damage does not mean you are right. In fact, given that Blizzard thinks the opposite, a very strong case can be made that you are wrong as I would trust their holistic view of the matter over that of someone whose goal to get Alliance High Elves would likely lead to him minimising the downsides of achieving that goal.

You are even just accepting that this all is the decision of Blizzard, and not a technical or factual problematic. (yeah, keep hiding on the interviews, like if they say anything meaningfull that was not effectively counter-argued xddddd).

Well, yes, that's been my point of view all along. Blizzard does not want to give the Alliance High Elves. The reasons they don't want to give the Alliance High Elves are because of the damage they rightfully feel it could inflict on the faction wall. The compromise they offered was to give the Alliance Void Elves, the same race with a different theme. The compromise appears to be a success, with the sample population of over a million characters on Warcraft realms showing that Void Elves are the most popular allied race choice. That a small group is upset that the compromise wasn't a 'proper compromise' i.e. the pro High Elf community getting 100% of what they wanted appears to be irrelevant to that success and their upset has been 'priced in'. Blizzard has never made a change that satisfied everyone after all, and they have not caved on issues they feel are truly fundamental to the game. Even the much vaunted 'flying' cave in deployed by the pro High Elf community as evidence Blizzard gives in ignores that Blizzard instituted a compromise on the matter that preserved the vast majority of what they wanted to accomplish by removing flying completely. Void Elves are Blizzard's compromise on High Elves, and just as those waiting for the day that all they have to do for flying is hit to max level are waiting and arguing in vain, the arguments of the pro High Elf community are also fated to be mostly ignored.

Well I say mostly. The most notable in game change to beta regarding High Elves has been the removal of Arcanist Ilira from the Warfront along with her High Elf spellcasters and their replacements by Humans. Arcanist Ilira has been repurposed as a Horde Blood Elf in the Warfront instead. I like to think that the High Elf threads have succeeded in making Blizzard realise they were being too liberal with using this nearly dead race and have toned it back a bit as a result. Proof they do listen.

[FlubberPuddy]

The compromise of Void Elves was therefore designed to go as far as Blizzard was willing in providing a thalassian option to the Alliance that was not a High Elf. According to Warcraft realms, Void Elves now constitute four percent of all level 110 characters, outstripping several other Alliance races. In other words, the Void Elves are the most successful Allied race by a considerable margin. Whilst the extremely vocal pro High Elf community has been upset that the Blood Elf copy that is High Elves have not been added, the figures from Warcraft Realms reveal that Void Elves have worked as a compromise and have been adopted by many tens of thousands of players. Whilst it is arguable that some of those people are making do with what they have and would switch to a High Elf if given the chance, the fact they are playing Void Elves at all means that it has worked as a compromise.

WOW Warcraft Realms?! The site where you need to have an addon made by them that you need to submit to provide data?

How can YOU help? By taking a census of your own server using the CensusPlus UI Mod and submitting the data here! The more data we get, the more accurate and current this display becomes!

OH Gee what else do we see on this website?

Total Alliance: 819,671 - 56%
Total Horde: 640,669 - 44%
A to H Ratio: 1.3 : 1

WOW We got it wrong all along boys! It's the HORDE who need more players right, not the ALLIANCE! Except!

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ws-WoW-History

The team is aware of the faction imbalance of hardcore raiding guilds. They have some ideas on how to solve this, but nothing to announce yet.

Where's this Faction imbalance currently?

https://www.wowprogress.com/ WOW look at all those Horde Guilds

Oh but Look at Realm Pop for the numbers:

https://realmpop.com/

Project Details
What - We currently record character names, races, classes, genders, levels, and guild memberships for all characters on every realm in the US and EU regions.
How - To get the list of characters for a realm, first we record all the characters who posted to the auction house. Then we fetch and record their guild rosters. This should cover the majority of characters on a realm. To avoid getting listed, a character must never post to the auction house, and never belong to a guild where a guild member posts to the auction house.
Who - It's important to remember that we're simply counting the number of characters seen for each category. This does not mean the number of players, nor the number of actively played characters. We can't efficiently get activity data yet, so some characters may not have been played for a long time.
When - We constantly update players and guilds as they appear on the auction house. The goal is to find all characters, not necessarily to have up-to-date guild rosters. The reports that come from this data get updated about once a week.
Where - We use the Battle.net API to get auction house, character, and guild information.

Sounds a LOT more accurate for getting census data rather than needing to use an addon and also submit the data to the website.

Realm Pop also lists data that for Horde and Alliance numbers that matches WoWProgress and also Blizzard recent comments on the faction imbalance.

For US at Level 110:

Alliance: 46.7%
Horde: 50.6%
Unkown (presumbly all AR): 2.6%

For EU at 110:

Alliance: 46.9%
Horde: 50.8%
Unknown (presumbly all AR): 2.3%

This post was merely to show that Warcraft Realms uses a very inaccurate method of posting census data and also shows that most of its users are skewed to Alliance players greatly. Whereas Realm Pop uses a more accurate method for posting census data that matches with other well-known WoW sites and Developer Comments.

But we already know how much a hard-on Obelisk has for keeping Blood Elves the only fair-skinned elves in the game, that's nothing new. I just wanted to clarify his biased information on using Warcraft Realms.

[Deleted]

So after few years of reading these kind of topic, I’d like to actually share few thoughts, if You all don’t mind.

But first things first:

IMG]http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w73/Dulafen/Silver_Covenant_Hair_Mix_v1.png[/IMG]


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These are brilliant. These are great. Wonderful. Amazing. Really makes me have WCII elf feeleng again.

I was once interested in lore discussions and cared a little bit of it to make sense. Although I don't care about it anymore. Story have been rewritten so many times and in so absurd ways, that there is no need for carrying. The only thing there is sens of discussing, is how things could work, depending on the decisions made by devs, of course. And here comes few things in which i totally don't understand You, especially Horde players.

Let’s say, as it was already said, that it is not about a story, but more about a THEME.

Night Elves – were once created ass union of Drow aesthetics with Wood Elf theme, as it was said previous in this discussion. It worked great, and was clearly visible in early artwork and in WCIII, they seem to be feral, savage and dangerous. Although it is not true for them anymore. Be honest – does it look like Wood of Feral elf for You still?



They got screwed in time. They lost all their wild exciting and wild impression. Now they are filling just generic moon-elves-niche. I’m not against having generic moon elves in game although… Can wee agree, that Night Elves, as a concept are currentlybalancing between two classical fantasy niches? And can be driven by devs in both directions?

I would personally anyway distinguish between quite primitive society from wood-elf-niche, and green-elf-niche (derived from Tolkien, as more noble version of nature connected elf), and said that Night Elves were always taking rather some part of the second one), but this is irrelevant here, as neither Blizzard nor playerbase seems to recognize such distinction.

Blood Elves – I read You all... Then I reach for my memories, from when they were introduced in WCIII, then I read You again… Then I get confidence, that we are talking about two different things. They got screwed to.

When introduced, Blood Elves were portrayed as vampiric, morally ambivalent, savage, proud and cruel, and first of all – power hungry. Their beauty actually hid aggressive and predatory nature. And that ambivalence make them perfectly fit Horde. What I see, as greatest story mistake here, was restoring of the Sunwell. It actually make Blood Elves much less unique and pushed them in generic direction. Blizzard seems to be in my opinion overtaken by idea of salvation of whole societies... To the point it becomes damaging to story.

Look back at TBC intro. Does that elf act like a High Elf to You? In my opinion she is acting like a Drow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTxQNs_WX-Q

Yes, they were in many ways justified to make controversial decisions. Although that decisions should not be left without consequences. It looks totally unrealistic. If Blood Elves are now portrayed as identical to High Elves, then that is not a profit, but loss for the Horde – that is a loss of cultural uniqueness, exceptional history, and tragism, all that made them worth interest.

Sometimes listening to players who want to justify deeds of characters with whom they identify, is mistake of devs. There was no need for justifying and saving them to that point of extend. They could stay corrupted to some point, tainted, fel sucking, and magic craving, and it would be perfectly fine, as price of surviving.

Now they are becoming hard to distinguish from High Elves, and that’s because they are becoming generic themselves, filling just classical sun-elves-niche, and anything more. Sure – they could be still described as ambivalent society to some point, as for example there seems to be no so much collision between using light and fel, also between using light and void in game lore. But Blizzard seems to be unwilling to use that direction anymore.

But Blood Elves were once the ones, that do not fill any classical fantasy elf niche, neither exactly sun-elf-niche nor dark-elves-niche. They were the most unique. Once. Not any more.

Nightborne Elves – well, I had big hopes, when I first saw them… I was hoping that their pure Drow aesthetics brings us some, proud, cruel and really cold society, even if not completely corrupt. None of this happened so far. I have no idea now, for what point Blizzard bring us their aesthetic, and it seems, Blizzards does not know themselves.

High Elves – they in fact have never been filling just only high-elves-niche… Why? Because when introduced, in WCII they were portrayed as more nature connected, and rather as forest elves (bringing back ranger aesthetic by nostalgic fans today, proves this point). This have been retconed and forgotten long ago. Becouse there was no need for this theme in game. Although now, there is place for them, and there is possibility to go back to roots of their concept. You can of course call them generic. Then I call them classic. You can say, that it is from nostalgia, then I say there is nothing wrong in being nostalgic, and people do that all the time. However I think You all are wrong saying, that they could not introduce anything interesting to story. Verry, verry wrong. And I'll try to justify why I think so.

Void Elves – that is total, absolute mistake from the beginning. However, no one will probably be willing to admit it. I think there could be a chance to save them, as a concept, although dependent on Blizzard writing and storytelling capabilities. So rather poor.

I think there could be some misunderstanding here. And most of all – It’s You, as the players, who are responsible for this misunderstanding, not Blizzard. This is You, who have been for years pushing for redemption of Blood Elves and justifying them, for years You have been repeating, that all High Elf fans want, is Blood Elf model with blue eyes… To the point, that Blizzard actually created such. Although that was never a thing anyone wanted, and this is why Blizzard ended with something, that feels to be total absurd. Well, that’s Blizzards loss. Much more than High Elves fans loss. Because they failed in recognizing what is worth investing work. And that is Your fault.

Blizzard gives them blue eyes – which have no sense, if we remember, that it is not arcane based society at all, and pushes existing in game High Elves, as one of sources of their population – what makes even less sense, if wee remember reasons of High Elf – Blood Elf split. And gives them to Alliance, where they outstand. In lore and aesthetics they become direct opposite of High Elf Theme. Not just a change, not just a visual modification, but rather total polar opposite. This is not a compromise, this is some kind of violent mockery. And it is clearly attempt of mixing opposite themes, however this time unsuccessful and incoherent.

As I said – I think they could be still saved, as a concept. Their current aesthetics seems to be similar with Dark Elves from Warhammer, or SpellForce 1, and so it pushes them in the trully-dark-elf territory. Using void – according to Warcraft own lore – the most corrupting and dangerous of existing sources of force – also could lead in similar direction.

There is no other elves occupying true-dark-elf-niche in Warcraft. However that direction of development requires pushing more in controversial practices – building society on slavery, sea piracy, and/or necromancy, settlements on harsh environments – in Northrend for example. They should have settlements in which they make things. Very evil things. Elven civil war is could be starting point in history for setting some kind of Dark Elf Empire, and Alleria could become their first corrupted matriarch, consumed in time by the thirst of retaking Quel’Thalas. I would have no problem with sacrificing her in that way. They said, that they want add some shades of grey to Alliance? Great. Lets start with that. That makes another bonus for the Horde – You won’t be baddies all the time, because even Sylvanas should seem to be a hero, compared to a truly-dark-elf. That requires also Void Elves not to being High Elves (which they are not able to be anyway) and being pushed as far from High Elves, as it is possible. What would be more likely, if Alliance High Elves were playable.

That is the possible story development, which would have sense and potential. Leaving them with just nothing more than void theme, not controversial and dangerous at all, will lead them to just be another purple sex toy for players. And although I have nothing against sex toys in game, I would like to see some consistent story sometimes.

Here You have examples. As for me – aesthetics fits.




And here is Void Elf portrait. I would like to ask You guys, who posted concepts here, if You were kind enough, and find a moment for that, as I consider myself to be rather bad in graphics, to try to recolore eyes to dark blue, dark violet, or totally black (as seen in Spell Force 1). Just to see, if that would make Void Elf look more consistent.



About the Horde, the Horde – as I understand it - was always about being some kind of savage, badass, wild, and in some way agressive… In what way making Blood Elves similar if not identical to High Elves works in favor of the Horde?

Do Horde players really want to see their own faction races, as pretty, sweet, innocent and just cute? In what way making Alliance High Elves playable hurt the Blood Elves? Clearly – if anything, it forces devs to push them back in their previuos themes in future development, thus making back more unique. This is probably the only way for them to get unique and climatic to some point again.

About factions “wall” loss… Well, there also comes a great profit from such move. Clearly High Elves and Blood Elves are similar as any other races in WoW. Which is great, because such similarity make great point to escalate tensions between factions. The most vital conflicts are never with thous , who are totally different from You, but rather with thous in which you can recognize yourself, but with whom you can not ever identify yourself. This is probably the greater source of conflicts, future misunderstands, and even future hatred in all current game stories. This is also reason, why Blizzard could not hide High Elves from story. Such conflict naturally catches attention. So… If we want to make factions divided, and hostile to each other, the elven civil war is probably the most promising way. Even if it needed a retcon about population numbers.

Some of You said, that High Elves fans will be always unsatisfied. Well, I’m not sure of that. They will be, if You wont do any effort to listen what they actually want, and force your interpretations instead. For me it seems to be quite clear, which changes are consistent with High Elf theme, and which are not. But if it is not clear for You – just try to listen what people are searching for.

In my personal opinion Alliance High Elf would work best on Night Elf model skeleton – as Hight Elves new societies could be somewhere in between what Blood Elven and Night Elven are, but slender, as Nightborne are, and of course light skinned. It would work great with WCII ranger aesthetics (tattoos), although High Elves working with Blue Draginflight are also interesting idea. They would take a place somewhere in between wood-elf-niche and high-elf-niche, as traditionally understood, so they would probably be themed a lot about balancing arcane with nature, maybe with slighter turn in favor of nature. Ranger aesthetic suggest living in lodges and/or forests rather than human cities, although I’m sure, that really interesting settlements can be created just on idea of hidden forest city. There is a lot of unused space in Eastern Kingdooms. And that’s basically all.

I see no logic in restricting light skinned elf to Blood Elf, as we got already introduced three purple skinned elven races in both factions, and neither of them responds correctly for what playerbase wants. Sometimes there is just no reason in forcibly trying to give people something that we personally see as better, than what they actually ask.


And, last but not least. What should be made playable first of all elfkind, is this one -



However they decided to cure them. Again, they choose salvation and redemption. And I’m already puking salvation and redemption themes. Probably the best concept ever created in history of Warcraft, have been just wasted.

[Aldo Hawk]

@Obelisk Kai i'm not surprised that you just hide behind non factual arguments and feelingfull speak, it's all in hands of the developers and they did not denied the request, everything outside that is simply guessing.

Proove things, don't simply say so.

[Obelisk Kai]

@Obelisk Kai i'm not surprised that you just hide behind non factual arguments and feelingfull speak, it's all in hands of the developers and they did not denied the request, everything outside that is simply guessing.

Proove things, don't simply say so.

I listed several facts in my rebuttal. More in fact than you have listed in this very short response. I have often said that the pro High Elf community argument boils down to 'if we complain long enough and loudly enough, Blizzard will cave'.

This response is literally an affirmation of that, ignoring everything else and just saying 'the developers can do what they want to'.

What we do know for a fact is that the developers said no, that they said no after a six month non stop campaign on the forums to change their minds and of which they were clearly aware (which is the one thing we can take from the whole Muffinus line from a few weeks back), and that they stated the reason they weren't changing their mind is the faction wall.

Frankly if the guy running the game telling you flat out isn't enough, then no amount of proof will ever be enough for you. The only thing you will accept without question is 'how stupid of us, the factions are meaningless, here are your High Elves'.

[Arrashi]

@Obelisk Kai i'm not surprised that you just hide behind non factual arguments and feelingfull speak, it's all in hands of the developers and they did not denied the request, everything outside that is simply guessing.

Proove things, don't simply say so.

The only ones who hide behind non factual arguments are high elf fans given their denial about words of one of lead designers.

[Darththeo]

And that isn't something that is going to change just because BFA ends. Or the expansion after ends. Or the expansion after that ends. High Elves as a playable race blurs the lines between the Alliance and Horde, compromises the faction integrity of the Horde and undermines the role of Blood Elves in the game.

100% pure Grade A speculation. Remember who was the final boss of WoD? Did we fight Grom in a a raid battle? No? Things change. What's true today in a subjective field may not hold true tomorrow. This is something you fail to comprehend.

A compromise between two individuals has to be mutually satisfactory, as each side has a veto over it. The High Elf debate is not such a debate. It involves two groups, players who wish High Elves to be playable and Blizzard who hold the power and who have stated time and again that they wish for the Horde and the Alliance to be distinct and that playable High Elves undermines that wish. Void Elves are a compromise because they represent Blizzard moving somewhat towards the High Elf position by providing a High Elf variant, albeit one with it's own theme and flavour. As the pro High Elf community consists of more than one individual, the chances of such a compromise satisfying everyone were impossible without Blizzard compromising it's own red line on faction diversity.

The compromise of Void Elves was therefore designed to go as far as Blizzard was willing in providing a thalassian option to the Alliance that was not a High Elf. According to Warcraft realms, Void Elves now constitute four percent of all level 110 characters, outstripping several other Alliance races. In other words, the Void Elves are the most successful Allied race by a considerable margin. Whilst the extremely vocal pro High Elf community has been upset that the Blood Elf copy that is High Elves have not been added, the figures from Warcraft Realms reveal that Void Elves have worked as a compromise and have been adopted by many tens of thousands of players. Whilst it is arguable that some of those people are making do with what they have and would switch to a High Elf if given the chance, the fact they are playing Void Elves at all means that it has worked as a compromise.

Not everyone can be happy with a compromise involving so many individuals. The trick is to satisfy the most as you can without undermining your fundamental principles. Void Elves do that. Your misfortune is that you are one of the few outside the line Blizzard drew. That is unfortunate, but given the lines Blizzard drew in the Q and A it seems to be a misfortune they are able to tolerate.

None of this followed from my objection of your original statement. Is this like the type version of liking hearing yourself talk? What did any of this have to do with understanding and acceptance? You asserted if you understand then you'll accept their "compromise" ... that just isn't true because in reality you can understand something and not agree with them. Going into further explanation of their reason isn't relevant to what I stated.

You are right that faction identity evolves, but evolution implies building upon an earlier base. This is the case with the Horde, the faction has grown, broadened and expanded since the days of classic, but it has always felt like the Horde across all these years. Remember, you are driven by the goal of playable High Elves. Blizzard has identified faction diversity as the overriding and overwhelming reason why it is extremely unlikely to happen. You are incentivised by pursuit of your goal to diminish or minimise the importance of the lines between the two factions. Weakening the division between the faction would be one of the worst mistakes Blizzard could ever make, messing with the two most iconic 'sides' in video gaming, the Alliance and Horde.

Blizzard is right to resist that weakening.

I have told you and others in this topic, I don't care if High Elves become playable ... the fact you keep asserting I am "driven" by it is honestly insulting how little you have paid attention.

Secondly, Vanilla had the Alliance being a faction made up of typical high fantasy tropes, noble races allied to defend Azeroth from threats while the Horde were the savage races banning together to survive plus the Frosaken which didn't fit that mold exactly. Each faction was defined by races, ideals and each faction had a unique class. Burning Crusade saw part of that desolved... no faction unique classes.

But, the Horde gained a typical High Fantasy race while the Alliance gained an Alien race just trying to survive. Later on the Worgen, a savage race was given to the Alliance. Now we have one race cross faction and two sub races cross faction (but treated as different from their "parent" race). The faction identity has ALWAYS been blurring and always weakening ... it has not over time been strengthening. Blizzard is "resisting" a weakening at this time, and Blizzard has shown they adapt and evolve based on how things play out.

Yes, they work on the next expansion or two, but things have also change during expansions.

[FlubberPuddy]

The only ones who hide behind non factual arguments are high elf fans given their denial about words of one of lead designers.

Ah yes so even when Wowhead is willing to officially endorse playable Alliance High Elves, and even when Red Shirt Guy who is lauded as de-facto lore checker can vouch for and say Blizzard should grow balls and just say they don't want to do em instead of giving nonsensical reasoning, yes it must just be "Blizzard gave great arguments idk high elf fans are in denial over it!"

[Aldo Hawk]

I listed several facts in my rebuttal. More in fact than you have listed in this very short response. I have often said that the pro High Elf community argument boils down to 'if we complain long enough and loudly enough, Blizzard will cave'.

This response is literally an affirmation of that, ignoring everything else and just saying 'the developers can do what they want to'.

What we do know for a fact is that the developers said no, that they said no after a six month non stop campaign on the forums to change their minds and of which they were clearly aware (which is the one thing we can take from the whole Muffinus line from a few weeks back), and that they stated the reason they weren't changing their mind is the faction wall.

Frankly if the guy running the game telling you flat out isn't enough, then no amount of proof will ever be enough for you. The only thing you will accept without question is 'how stupid of us, the factions are meaningless, here are your High Elves'.

I could force myself a bit more and give you the big extended response that you want but, m8, that's just fucking ad nauseum, if you can't still see in what you fail, i'm not going to argue you more than is needed.

I answered you with text walls before, if you don't taked any of them as anything remotely factuable, you just seem useless to argue against.

Just take a mirror and look at yourself, i'm just going to answer what it's necessary, not pleasing your desire of wall texts to having a maleable and confusing discussion.

PD: Nobody expected an answer like 'yes, they are going to be introduced next patch', most of us expected something on the lines that they told to us, not an 'the horde is there for you' or complete misunderstanding and non factual arguing, if you fail on understanding that is not my problem, is yours, good luck with that.

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Ah yes so even when Wowhead is willing to officially endorse playable Alliance High Elves, and even when Red Shirt Guy who is lauded as de-facto lore checker can vouch for and say Blizzard should grow balls and just say they don't want to do em instead of giving nonsensical reasoning, yes it must just be "Blizzard gave great arguments idk high elf fans are in denial over it!"

It's just nonsensical to answer those type of comments my dude, just let it rot apart.

[Darththeo]

I could force myself a bit more and give you the big extended response that you want but, m8, that's just fucking ad nauseum, if you can't still see in what you fail, i'm not going to argue you more than is needed.

I answered you with text walls before, if you don't taked any of them as anything remotely factuable, you just seem useless to argue against.

Just take a mirror and look at yourself, i'm just going to answer what it's necessary, not pleasing your desire of wall texts to having a maleable and confusing discussion.

PD: Nobody expected an answer like 'yes, they are going to be introduced next patch', most of us expected something on the lines that they told to us, not an 'the horde is there for you' or complete misunderstanding and non factual arguing, if you fail on understanding that is not my problem, is yours, good luck with that.

I see you are having similar problems with the poster. I stated something to him that you can understand a reason but not agree with the reason and he posted a wall of text explaining the reason to me ... um, yeah, I already understand the reason, I disagree with it.

[FlubberPuddy]

Just take a mirror and look at yourself, i'm just going to answer what it's necessary, not pleasing your desire of wall texts to having a maleable and confusing discussion.

PD: Nobody expected an answer like 'yes, they are going to be introduced next patch', most of us expected something on the lines that they told to us, not an 'the horde is there for you' or complete misunderstanding and non factual arguing, if you fail on understanding that is not my problem, is yours, good luck with that.

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It's just nonsensical to answer those type of comments my dude, just let it rot apart.

Pretty much that is the only way to respond to Obelisk, I'm only pointing out when he uses incorrect evidence like Warcraft Realms. But to argue against his opinion is useless since he apparently is a hardcore Blood Elf fan boy. He seems to truly believe he understands how the developers think, makes me wonder if he's 100% okay with every single change the developers make to the game.

And yeah I agree, I wasn't expecting "yeah high elves they're coming tomorrow!" more so an acknowledgement of the feedback given since Blizzcon, which that didn't even happen. Ion just repeated what he said at Blizzcon and then said if you want blue eye blood elf go play horde. Not even realizing Void Elves themselves are blue eye blood elves and missing the fact that the feedback shown for half year+ (since feedback is still going) model wasn't the important aspect and up for changing to another skeleton.

Also to your last point, yeh, true. Arrashi simply leaves lightweight troll-y comments wherever they post that don't really add meaningful content to the discussion of the thread. It's just funny to keep seeing people say "oh just people in this thread are in denial" but clearly there's a greater amount of people from all communities that know Ion's response was weak.

[Arrashi]

Ah yes so even when Wowhead is willing to officially endorse playable Alliance High Elves, and even when Red Shirt Guy who is lauded as de-facto lore checker can vouch for and say Blizzard should grow balls and just say they don't want to do em instead of giving nonsensical reasoning, yes it must just be "Blizzard gave great arguments idk high elf fans are in denial over it!"

Last time i remember lead designers word is worth a bit more than fansite and random neckbeard. And yes, you guys are in denial over it.

[Aldo Hawk]

Pretty much that is the only way to respond to Obelisk, I'm only pointing out when he uses incorrect evidence like Warcraft Realms. But to argue against his opinion is useless since he apparently is a hardcore Blood Elf fan boy. He seems to truly believe he understands how the developers think, makes me wonder if he's 100% okay with every single change the developers make to the game.

And yeah I agree, I wasn't expecting "yeah high elves they're coming tomorrow!" more so an acknowledgement of the feedback given since Blizzcon, which that didn't even happen. Ion just repeated what he said at Blizzcon and then said if you want blue eye blood elf go play horde. Not even realizing Void Elves themselves are blue eye blood elves and missing the fact that the feedback shown for half year+ (since feedback is still going) model wasn't the important aspect and up for changing to another skeleton.

Also to your last point, yeh, true. Arrashi simply leaves lightweight troll-y comments wherever they post that don't really add meaningful content to the discussion of the thread. It's just funny to keep seeing people say "oh just people in this thread are in denial" but clearly there's a greater amount of people from all communities that know Ion's response was weak.

No, I'M THE BLOOD ELF FANBOY, and i understand why people want the alliance high elves to be playable, and i find it totally plausible and with backup, Obelisk Kai is just someone who thinks that HE is stealing something from the horde or something game breaking, and that is not true. And if it is, i want PROOF, and he gave NOONE at this point, not him, not nobody.

[FlubberPuddy]

Last time i remember lead designers word is worth a bit more than fansite and random neckbeard. And yes, you guys are in denial over it.

Disagreeing with a response =/= being in denial. Of course I'm sure you know that already.

No, I'M THE BLOOD ELF FANBOY, and i understand why people want the alliance high elves to be playable, and i find it totally plausible and with backup, Obelisk Kai is just someone who thinks that HE is stealing something from the horde or something game breaking, and that is not true. And if it is, i want PROOF, and he gave NOONE at this point, not him, not nobody.

Nice good to see, and you aren't the only blood elf fan boy that can understand where people are coming from who ask for High Elves.

Yeah I think it's clear he does see it that way. It's even more clear he only cares about the fair skin portion of high elves as well due to him saying Void Elves are good enough on the grounds they are purple.

Probably the weakest argument anyone could make about the subject, unfortunately we'll have to keep hearing for a while since Ion made a meme of the response. Summer Break in 2 more days then I can spend more time playing WoW instead of talking about it.