Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

They provided rationale to why it won't happen at this time, you can't say it won't happen ever. Even the developers left that door open.

The developers ended with a standard platitude which the pro High Elf community has latched onto in desperation. More important was the rationale they gave for denying High Elves, that they are already playable.

For Blizzard to allow playable High Elves they would have do a complete one hundred and eighty degree turn not on playable High Elves, but on the value of the faction split as the defining foundation of the game.

I stated that understanding doesn't mean acceptance of something ... please don't change my argument. And your response was still just explaining the compromise, it doesn't address what I said.

Your original quote.

This just doesn't follow. You can understand the reasons, but also could see Void elves not as a compromise. You do know you can understand someone's reasons and not accept them right as sound or valid right?

A point of view that is entirely personal. You PERSONALLY believe that it is not a compromise. My explanation is to show that you are incorrect, that it IS a compromise, merely one you reject.

Logic not found. You do know there are things like Devil's Advocates right? You do know there are people who are bothered by your behavior toward Pro-Helfers? Seriously, just because you can't understand something doesn't make your assertion correct. There are poor arguments on both sides, but the Pro-Helfers behavior is better than the Anti-Helfers.

Your assertion that the pro High Elf community is better behaved than the Anti is demonstrably false though. The worst thing that has been done in this debate has been the actions of some on the High Elf discord to mobilize mass reporting of posters on the official forums in an attempt to get them banned.

There is nothing more heinous than an attempt to silence the opposition through such under handed means.

Whilst you will of course argue that that was only some pro High Elf posters, you yourself turned this into a competition between the two sides in totality by saying one side was better than the other...ignoring that members of the pro High Elf side have committed the worst possible offense in terms of debating.

[FlubberPuddy]

Did he actually argue that having Perculia and Redshirt guy in his corner means something?

Absolute nonsense. Fans are entitled to their opinions but in the end are just fans, same as you and me.

Did Obelisk just try talking smack about my points while having me on ignore?

Absolute man-child behavior.

We can rest assured, as stated previously, that there's no longer any "danger" of Alliance getting blue/purple elves the next time around elves get added to the Alliance. That will be a great day indeed seeing as Blizzard likes to keep things visually distinct.

[Aldo Hawk]

@Obelisk Kai So you say that Ion Hazzikostas is a god and is opinion is fact because of that, and then say that we are all just fans but you are on Ion's side so you are right just by that... pathetic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

A fact is a statement that is consistent with reality or can be proven with evidence. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability <---- (Careful with that).

While is true that Ion is kind of a god in the game, it doesn't change the fact that he is a human, so your rationale is weak just by that, he was not the first and will not be the last main director, and what he said was his opinion and not verified facts, their rationale is not truth by default, is just that simple, i suggest you to change your mind on that.

It's a nonsense that you try to focus on opinions and twist them to making them facts by doing mental gymnastics.

You start lying when you say that you 'understand' (but avoided the answer about objectivity totally, pretty convenient) that the only solid argument that we have is that developers can change their minds. Maybe you say that because that possibility bothers you? Or surely it is.

But the best part is you answering me that you have years of Blizzard's statements, the last time you gave me one it were an interview from late 2005 in where you twisted it saying that HE and BE were used as something interchangable, when in that interview the usage of HE and BE were used to refer to the Silvermoon society before and after the scourge invasion, if you have that much of Blizzard's statements from over the years that support the fact that HE aren't possible, show it, just try to be honest with that not like usual.

And i'm not going to comment very fondly on the whole 'all you got is praying' because at this point it just seems that you are projecting yourself in others (remember devs are gods and i am in their side? check that).

And i'm just going to finish pointing your dishonesty by saying that HE would be a copy without alteration, you don't have more to backup that than i have by just saying that playable races always get modified when added, even Mag'har and Dark Iron are getting tweaked, and they could have been just copy pastes, what do you have to backup that?.

[Ithekro]

Ithekro it has been told you several times why it isn't going to happen.

The Blood Elves are the High Elves. They are biologically and thematically identical. As a result, the Blood/High Elf theme is now something that is now a unique part of the Horde experience. High Elves, because they are identical to Blood Elves, would offer the same experience. It would be like the Alliance having access to a group of Mulgore Tauren.

Despite the attempts at the beginning of this thread, it is impossible to create a High Elf that is distinguishable from a Blood Elf that the pro High Elf community would accept.

As for the High Elves being a source of some great pvp potential, we don't care. Firstly because the majority of Horde players would want to prioritize the integrity of our faction over the meagre story potential you describe. Secondly because we just got a group of Alliance Elves diametrically opposed to the Blood Elves with whom we have a genuine beef. The Void Elves are clear rivals. I will enjoy killing Void Elf traitors in PVP. As the High Elves embrace the light, the Void Elves embrace the shadow.

There is a genuine dichotomy there. One we would not have with a copy paste of the Horde's most popular race...one that would actually undermine Void Elves as the true opposition of the Blood Elves within the Alliance.

Despite what you say, there are High Elves, in the Alliance, that are not Blood Elves. That is fact. They exist therefore the argument that they are 100% total Horde experience is entirely false, because they still exist in the Alliance. They might be 10% of the total High Elf/Blood Elf/Void Elf population, but they are there.

Biology and thematically your point holds no ground. If there were no High Elves in the Alliance, sure they would work, but they are there. High Elves are just another group that happens to already be in the Alliance in one way or another. They've been their for well over a decade (since WoW Beta in 2004 at the very least). Longer than the Blood Elves have been in the Horde. So you can't tell me that it is a unique Horde experience, because that is blatantly false. If that was true, the arguments you have made would have merit. But they are not true, and have never been true, and you know that. The pro High Elf groups have been attempting to appease the anti High Elf groups by coming up with ways to make the High Elves different than Blood Elves. That is entirely for the sake of the Horde players, because them being distinguishable visually does not actually need to be a thing. Its is being attempted as a compromise when one isn't needed. And before you go off on the Void Elf tangent again, no, that's not a compromise. That's a new flavor of elf to fit a different theme, and that is all it will ever be.


A similar argument can be made for Mulgore Tauren if the plot twist of the Grimtotem tribe had remained in the Alliance (rather than betray everyone). There are routes for groups to enter the opposing sides. Model/race does not need to be a factor of the faction wall. That is too simplistic and not realistic even within a fantasy setting given that pretty much every faction has other factions of their own species they need to kill somewhere in the world. Humans kill a lot of humans. Orcs kill a lot of orcs. Trolls kill a lot of trolls, yet Zandalari are joining the Horde. Dwarves kill a lot of dwarves, and yet the Dark Iron are joining the Alliance as an Allied Race (it use to make sense that they might join the Horde as an "enemy of my enemy" group, since they fought both the Alliance and the Dark Horde, both of which Thrall's Horde was against). With the idea of Lightbound Orcs, there is the possibility of lightforged brown Orcs joining the Alliance (depending on how that story is spin for the Alliance, if they ever do anything with that plot after the Horde's unlock quest chain).


The High Elves are in the Alliance. This is a fact. No amount of foot stomping or denial will erase that. Only plot development will change that. That is why the point remains for the pro High Elves as playable remains a thing. They are there. The arguments made against them are not sustainable after the Allied Race system was implemented. The faction wall argument is irrelevant because they are already in the Alliance on Live, therefore no one is crossing said line. The model argument is too simplistic an argument. Using it paints the picture that Blizzard has no respect for their player's intelligence. A player should be able to figure out the other elf out their trying to kill them is an enemy even if it looks like them....just like any random human npc that is trying to kill my warlock. They look no different from my character aside from gear, and sometimes not even then. Its the same model. An Alliance high elf npc that is casing a frost bolt at your Blood Elf would be no different than a player High Elf mage casting frost bolt at your Blood Elf. The player would be jumping a lot more, but so do the new Advanced A.I. bots Blizzard is introducing in BfA. I can walk into Boralas right now and see tons of humans of all model types. Some will attack me. If they happen to be the older Stormwind type model, the only way for me to tell it will attack me it that its name is in red....just like any other mob or player in the world. So what difference does it make to the Horde if the Alliance has High Elves? Playable or not, they will still try to attack you outside a sanctuary zone or plot shielded area (in fact you might have better luck with an Alliance player High Elf, because they probably won't have War Mode on anyway).

[Rydanis]

Honestly I don't understand why Horde players or Blizzard don't want to add High Elves to the Alliance as playable. I would think it would make for prime story material and a clear rivalry within the player base. There are Blood Elf players that would love to see Alliance High Elves specifically so the can kill them in PvP. Orcs vs Humans is the old rivalry. But with the Horde's player population dominated by Blood Elves (and the Alliance not having any Trolls) the most logical rival to put in are High Elves (Night Elves don't work for this....they are too distant to become real rivals).

Well, from a belf player's perspective, I can tell you that Void Elves already makes me sad for the race I've been playing since BC. We've been asked for things like new, non-stupid facial hair and the removal of duckface for so, so long, and while thankfully we've gotten the latter, only Void Elves get the former. If High Elves were to be added, with all these awesome tribal tattoos, buff looks, feathers in their hair, why wouldn't I be annoyed? Look, more awesome customization for our model except oh, no, if you want to have that customization on your belf model you'd best be ready to abandon your story since BC, your guild, your faction, etc. Already we've been shown that we can be passed over for options many of us were dying to have, only to give them to the opposite faction. If this happened with some feature you cared about this much, you'd be pretty upset too.

On Alliance side, since Void Elves were introduces, I'd say that more than half the characters I run into are Void Elves. For one thing, I hate seeing a model I associate with Horde on Alliance, just as much as I hate seeing Nightborne on Horde. The idea that faction lines are undermined by these kind of races is entirely true, and despite some of you not much caring about faction identity, you don't speak for the entire playerbase. Some of us like how the Alliance and Horde look. Some of us don't want to trade races across faction.

It's called cost of opportunity. The implementation of something like a High Elf means that that customization is now barred to Blood Elves. We've already seen this with Void Elves, and I have to wonder if that race didn't exist if we'd maybe get some of those looks in the future. But now? Now we can't. There's a cost in adding High Elves as an Allied race in that it keeps the Alliance from getting something way more original. If it came down to High Elves vs. Sethrak, I'd be pissed if we got High Elves.

Yet another issue is the idea that there would ever be a "belf but better" race. Yes, I'm fully aware that better is subjective. I'm fully aware that some people would not see them as better. But as it is now, Blood Elves have looks that are low poly compared to Void Elves and so they look older already, and this problem would only get worse if High Elves were added. Further, Blood Elves are in a faction where NONE of the faction's identity matches with their cultural aesthetic, whereas Alliance gets very elegant looks that would entirely match Thalassian elves. This is especially true come BfA, where the Warfront sets are gorgeous, lovingly crafted, beautiful things, and the Horde gets, you guessed it, more spikes. So no, I don't want to see an improved, highly customized belf model sporting some of the most gorgeous armor I've ever seen, riding around on a beautiful updated horse. That IS the culture of Blood Elves. That IS their history.

Oh, and as an Allied race? You can bet they'd get to start at higher levels and have heritage armor. Great. A Thalassian heritage set. Only for High Elves. Cool. That would make two belf-looking races with leveling perks and race-specific armor. I suppose us belf players can stick with BC-quality belf-themed models for transmog, if we want race-based armor. Sure, that seems totally fair to us.

So this is why I, personally, don't want High Elves added. It's stepping on toes, it's insulting to the lore, it's an old, dead-end race. You have Alleria, you have her followers, including all those High Elves coming to the Rift to learn about the Void. Those ARE the ones that never left the Alliance. They ARE playable. So if you care about the lore, there. You have those exact High Elves. If you're only in this for the skin color and eyes, you may want to take a step back and evaluate exactly what you're asking for and how it would harm other players.

You can call me whatever names you want, I don't care. Think this is jealous and petty? Whatever. But the fact is, you can't dictate how these ideas make myself and many other Horde players feel, just as we can't tell you to care less about what you want. The people arguing on the other side from you are not robots, we play this game too, and our opinions on this game are worth exactly as much as yours. How we feel about races added and the future of the game are worth exactly as much as yours. Our desire to see High Elves remain unplayable is worth EXACTLY as much as your desire for them to be playable. And yes, we have real reasons for how we feel, just as you have real reasons for how you feel.

[Darththeo]

The developers ended with a standard platitude which the pro High Elf community has latched onto in desperation. More important was the rationale they gave for denying High Elves, that they are already playable.

For Blizzard to allow playable High Elves they would have do a complete one hundred and eighty degree turn not on playable High Elves, but on the value of the faction split as the defining foundation of the game.

Even without the ****ing platitude, basic English tells you they left the door open and the fact the game evolves over time leaves the door open. The people who have "latched" onto the platitude isn't the Pro-Helfers ... it's your side "It's just a platitude!"

A point of view that is entirely personal. You PERSONALLY believe that it is not a compromise. My explanation is to show that you are incorrect, that it IS a compromise, merely one you reject.

Did you even read my original quote? You post it but clearly didn't read. Read it again. Do you know how I know you haven't read it? YOU ARE LITERALLY NOW REPEATING MY POINT as proof I was wrong. I didn't say anything about it BEING a compromise ... I stated about SEEING IT as one. Do you not know the difference?

And then basically, you proved how it wasn't a compromise in your explanation ... so I don't see why you bothered.

Your assertion that the pro High Elf community is better behaved than the Anti is demonstrably false though. The worst thing that has been done in this debate has been the actions of some on the High Elf discord to mobilize mass reporting of posters on the official forums in an attempt to get them banned.

There is nothing more heinous than an attempt to silence the opposition through such under handed means.

Whilst you will of course argue that that was only some pro High Elf posters, you yourself turned this into a competition between the two sides in totality by saying one side was better than the other...ignoring that members of the pro High Elf side have committed the worst possible offense in terms of debating.

Here is the thing, the Pro-Helfers are annoying ... the Anti-Helfers feel the need to argue with them ... which is worse? I rather an annoying group than a person that feels the need to tell said group they are wrong when they aren't doing anything beyond stating what they want.

What you don't get to do EVER is assert why I am making my argument and state I am wrong in why I do what I do. You don't get to dictate what I am because it doesn't fit your little world view. Which, FYI, is literally the worst possible offense in debating ... so thank you for proving yourself wrong.

[Tatzi]

I don't know why this thread is still going.

Ion said it's not happening. That is a good enough reason.

Maybe I'm just not involved as much as the rest of you, but seriously. Everyone in here needs to take a break.

[FlubberPuddy]

Well, from a belf player's perspective, I can tell you that Void Elves already makes me sad for the race I've been playing since BC. We've been asked for things like new, non-stupid facial hair and the removal of duckface for so, so long, and while thankfully we've gotten the latter, only Void Elves get the former. If High Elves were to be added, with all these awesome tribal tattoos, buff looks, feathers in their hair, why wouldn't I be annoyed? Look, more awesome customization for our model except oh, no, if you want to have that customization on your belf model you'd best be ready to abandon your story since BC, your guild, your faction, etc. Already we've been shown that we can be passed over for options many of us were dying to have, only to give them to the opposite faction. If this happened with some feature you cared about this much, you'd be pretty upset too.

It's a fallacy to think Blood Elves would get customization like warpaints/tribal tattoos, and feathers in their hair. That's not their aesthetic. The fact you think they should have just means you yourself don't understand what the Blood Elf aesthetic is, even after Ion mentioned it.

On Alliance side, since Void Elves were introduces, I'd say that more than half the characters I run into are Void Elves. For one thing, I hate seeing a model I associate with Horde on Alliance, just as much as I hate seeing Nightborne on Horde. The idea that faction lines are undermined by these kind of races is entirely true, and despite some of you not much caring about faction identity, you don't speak for the entire playerbase. Some of us like how the Alliance and Horde look. Some of us don't want to trade races across faction.

Well get ready for more of it Blizzard are intentionally giving aesthetics that happen to be on one side of the faction to the other in order to make sure there is a balance between themes on both factions. Long gone are the days of "tough/ugly chars only" on Horde and "pretty/cute races" on Alliance. They're intentionally giving those concepts to the other side to shore up where they are lacking.

It's called cost of opportunity. The implementation of something like a High Elf means that that customization is now barred to Blood Elves. We've already seen this with Void Elves, and I have to wonder if that race didn't exist if we'd maybe get some of those looks in the future. But now? Now we can't. There's a cost in adding High Elves as an Allied race in that it keeps the Alliance from getting something way more original. If it came down to High Elves vs. Sethrak, I'd be pissed if we got High Elves.

Do you realize that the reason Blood Elves got their lip fixes, and expanded eyes is because Void Elves were being worked on as an Allied Race and the models are the same? O_o This is seen with the Orcs as well, Blizzard stated they knew they wanted Orcs to have a straight back option (since this is both applied to original and mag'har orcs), you can easily deduce that the reason original Orcs are getting straight back option is because it's applied to and being worked on because of the mag'har since literally both these orcs also share the same model.

Blood Elves even got a fix to their male bow casting animation, no more broken back. A fix that is implemented onto Void Elves as well. So actually it is better for their to be races like this because it allows Blizzard to go back and update the OG models as well. Presumably the same would occur if High Elves were added. Some even mentioned why not give Blood Elves whatever new model they come up with and have High Elves use the old model, since then you wouldn't have to feel like "oh they gave High Elves a brand spankin new model" as you currently seem to convey.

Yet another issue is the idea that there would ever be a "belf but better" race. Yes, I'm fully aware that better is subjective. I'm fully aware that some people would not see them as better. But as it is now, Blood Elves have looks that are low poly compared to Void Elves and so they look older already, and this problem would only get worse if High Elves were added. Further, Blood Elves are in a faction where NONE of the faction's identity matches with their cultural aesthetic, whereas Alliance gets very elegant looks that would entirely match Thalassian elves. This is especially true come BfA, where the Warfront sets are gorgeous, lovingly crafted, beautiful things, and the Horde gets, you guessed it, more spikes. So no, I don't want to see an improved, highly customized belf model sporting some of the most gorgeous armor I've ever seen, riding around on a beautiful updated horse. That IS the culture of Blood Elves. That IS their history.

Seems like you have an issue with the general Horde aesthetic. We apparently have a solution to that based on Ion's response: The Alliance are waiting for you. See it works both ways.

So this is why I, personally, don't want High Elves added. It's stepping on toes, it's insulting to the lore, it's an old, dead-end race. You have Alleria, you have her followers, including all those High Elves coming to the Rift to learn about the Void. Those ARE the ones that never left the Alliance. They ARE playable. So if you care about the lore, there. You have those exact High Elves. If you're only in this for the skin color and eyes, you may want to take a step back and evaluate exactly what you're asking for and how it would harm other players.

This shows some extra level of ignorance. When people speak about wanting High Elves on Alliance, they're talking about the Silver Covenant, Highvale, etc. Not stuck up, bitchy Silvermoon Elves. Y'all can keep those

You can call me whatever names you want, I don't care. Think this is jealous and petty? Whatever. But the fact is, you can't dictate how these ideas make myself and many other Horde players feel, just as we can't tell you to care less about what you want. The people arguing on the other side from you are not robots, we play this game too, and our opinions on this game are worth exactly as much as yours. How we feel about races added and the future of the game are worth exactly as much as yours. Our desire to see High Elves remain unplayable is worth EXACTLY as much as your desire for them to be playable. And yes, we have real reasons for how we feel, just as you have real reasons for how you feel.

You sound extremely jealous and petty yeah, but that's ok. People felt jealous and about many things in the game, lfr, "welfare epics" "leggos," transmog, account bound honor, etc.

And it isn't like there aren't other Horde players that are okay with High Elves being added to Alliance. Most people don't feel the need to keep iterating the same points they've already stated.

But every so often there are people that enter into a conversation without knowing all the hub bub and comment, so clarifications are given.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know why this thread is still going.

Ion said it's not happening. That is a good enough reason.

Maybe I'm just not involved as much as the rest of you, but seriously. Everyone in here needs to take a break.

Oh, are you bothered by players talking about High Elves in a High Elf discussion thread? This thread is going because people are still discussing High Elves, what's not to get?

Is there some reason people should stop talking about them in a thread dedicated to them?

- - - Updated - - -

Here is the thing, the Pro-Helfers are annoying ... the Anti-Helfers feel the need to argue with them ... which is worse? I rather an annoying group than a person that feels the need to tell said group they are wrong when they aren't doing anything beyond stating what they want.

What you don't get to do EVER is assert why I am making my argument and state I am wrong in why I do what I do. You don't get to dictate what I am because it doesn't fit your little world view. Which, FYI, is literally the worst possible offense in debating ... so thank you for proving yourself wrong.

I know it probably doesn't matter to you personally but Anti-helf trolls replaced a whole bunch of high elf fan art that was sent to Chris Robinson in a tweet (admittedly because the pro-helf peeps didn't set permissions) with a bunch of anti high elf images (trolls killing elves etc).

Then there was another moment where someone on the High Elf wowpedia deleted the entire "Recent Events" section for High Elves just because it used against them in an argument.

Both problems fixed after being investigated, and not that it matters because Obelisk would of course be as bias as ever to not mention that while trying to feign his "objectivity and understanding" on the matter. But posting this for posterity.

[Deleted]

Well, from a belf player's perspective, I can tell you that Void Elves already makes me sad for the race I've been playing since BC. We've been asked for things like new, non-stupid facial hair and the removal of duckface for so, so long, and while thankfully we've gotten the latter, only Void Elves get the former. If High Elves were to be added, with all these awesome tribal tattoos, buff looks, feathers in their hair, why wouldn't I be annoyed? Look, more awesome customization for our model except oh, no, if you want to have that customization on your belf model you'd best be ready to abandon your story since BC, your guild, your faction, etc. Already we've been shown that we can be passed over for options many of us were dying to have, only to give them to the opposite faction. If this happened with some feature you cared about this much, you'd be pretty upset too.

On Alliance side, since Void Elves were introduces, I'd say that more than half the characters I run into are Void Elves. For one thing, I hate seeing a model I associate with Horde on Alliance, just as much as I hate seeing Nightborne on Horde. The idea that faction lines are undermined by these kind of races is entirely true, and despite some of you not much caring about faction identity, you don't speak for the entire playerbase. Some of us like how the Alliance and Horde look. Some of us don't want to trade races across faction.

It's called cost of opportunity. The implementation of something like a High Elf means that that customization is now barred to Blood Elves. We've already seen this with Void Elves, and I have to wonder if that race didn't exist if we'd maybe get some of those looks in the future. But now? Now we can't. There's a cost in adding High Elves as an Allied race in that it keeps the Alliance from getting something way more original. If it came down to High Elves vs. Sethrak, I'd be pissed if we got High Elves.

Yet another issue is the idea that there would ever be a "belf but better" race. Yes, I'm fully aware that better is subjective. I'm fully aware that some people would not see them as better. But as it is now, Blood Elves have looks that are low poly compared to Void Elves and so they look older already, and this problem would only get worse if High Elves were added. Further, Blood Elves are in a faction where NONE of the faction's identity matches with their cultural aesthetic, whereas Alliance gets very elegant looks that would entirely match Thalassian elves. This is especially true come BfA, where the Warfront sets are gorgeous, lovingly crafted, beautiful things, and the Horde gets, you guessed it, more spikes. So no, I don't want to see an improved, highly customized belf model sporting some of the most gorgeous armor I've ever seen, riding around on a beautiful updated horse. That IS the culture of Blood Elves. That IS their history.

Oh, and as an Allied race? You can bet they'd get to start at higher levels and have heritage armor. Great. A Thalassian heritage set. Only for High Elves. Cool. That would make two belf-looking races with leveling perks and race-specific armor. I suppose us belf players can stick with BC-quality belf-themed models for transmog, if we want race-based armor. Sure, that seems totally fair to us.

So this is why I, personally, don't want High Elves added. It's stepping on toes, it's insulting to the lore, it's an old, dead-end race. You have Alleria, you have her followers, including all those High Elves coming to the Rift to learn about the Void. Those ARE the ones that never left the Alliance. They ARE playable. So if you care about the lore, there. You have those exact High Elves. If you're only in this for the skin color and eyes, you may want to take a step back and evaluate exactly what you're asking for and how it would harm other players.

You can call me whatever names you want, I don't care. Think this is jealous and petty? Whatever. But the fact is, you can't dictate how these ideas make myself and many other Horde players feel, just as we can't tell you to care less about what you want. The people arguing on the other side from you are not robots, we play this game too, and our opinions on this game are worth exactly as much as yours. How we feel about races added and the future of the game are worth exactly as much as yours. Our desire to see High Elves remain unplayable is worth EXACTLY as much as your desire for them to be playable. And yes, we have real reasons for how we feel, just as you have real reasons for how you feel.

Fantastic post. Sums up a lot of my feelings, and it's no doubt how a lot of other mainly blood elf players feel about the subject. I'd absolutely take it as an infringement of my favorite race's identity if a "better/nicer/purer" version was made playable on the opposite faction, and at the heart of it, that's what this request is demanding. You know it, I know it, Ion and Blizzard knew it. I was willing to accept void elves - high/blood elves at their core, but vastly different in theme and aesthetic - but the high elf crowd clearly was not.

It's a shame Blizzard botched the void elf origin story so badly with the stupid blood elf void cult nonsense. It would've been fascinating to see how this "movement" evolved if the void elves were void-touched Silver Covenant high elves who were rescued by Alleria instead. Would we still be seeing an insane outcry for blond-haired, blue-eyed, Caucasian elv- I mean, uh, "high elf lore"? I wonder. If this community's day 1 reaction to void elves is anything to go by, back when we all just assumed they were Alleria's high elf followers....I'd guess yes.

[KrakHed]

If this community's day 1 reaction to void elves is anything to go by, back when we all just assumed they were Alleria's high elf followers....I'd guess yes.

Remind me what that was again? I can hardly recall.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyhow, this is what I see as the main issue here with implementing any race. Thematic intrusion. Every race has to give off a different theme and feel, in such a way that doesn't intrude upon or swamp out others. Fans of other races don't want to see what makes theirs special be taken away or diluted by another race. So, let's look at things when it comes to Elves, and see what niches are actually available.

First, we must acknowledge that the Blood Elf story has progressed quite a lot, or you could say that it's essentially regressed. People acting like they're a bunch of stuck up snobs, so haughty and arrogant, are ignoring this to a degree. That's just a common High Elf stereotype, along with the jokes of them being effeminate. Add in playable High Elves, and you'd probably equally dumb jokes like that.

So, what are Blood Elves? They aren't mana vampires. They aren't even particularly corrupted. If anything, they're holier than they ever were before and learned a lesson in humility years ago. Not only that, but two thirds of their ruling council are Rangers. So it's not like Rangers aren't part of their identity. If I were to sum up the Blood Elves by their fantasy niche, I'd say they were just High Elves with all the things you'd mostly expect from High Elves. Your standard noble and majestic Elf, now infused with the essence of holiness and purity. They've lost most of their edge entirely, and now they're the ones saying which magical practices are too dangerous or wrong.

In terms of themes, there's a massive overlap between High Elves and Blood Elves. When it comes to just shoving tattoos on one, the thought almost makes me laugh. Back in the day, it was the Blood Elves who were implied to be the tattooed Elves.

If Blood Elves had remained mana vampires, things might be different. But now? Now the differences have faded. High Elves don't really have their own niche. They are blue Blood Elves pulling from the same cultural and biological roots without much modification. The difference in themes is pretty much entirely a difference in loyalties these days.

If we take the High Elves in an "Arcane Purist" direction, that'd pull them a bit away from the holier Blood Elves. And right into the Nightborne niche. If we focus on wilder aspects, borrowing from the Rangers, they'd still have to be pushed rather far to separate their identity from Blood Elf Rangers who still exist. And by that point, you're intruding on the Wild Elf identity that's supposed to be dominated by the Night Elves.

Now, you may wonder why that last part is a problem. See, the Night Elf fans feel like they've been made into bootlicking Human sidekicks to fill the standard Humans, Elves, and Dwarves relationship. Giving High Elves the themes that Night Elves feel they've been deprived of is not going to go over well.

The way I see it, Void Elves were the lazy answer to this dilemma. Just take what Blood Elves are now, and invert it. By taking them in the opposite direction, you theoretically create a new niche. Which is also kind of the one that the Blood Elves use to occupy, with even the idea of mastering and stealing power from divine beings and so on instead of revering or serving them. Alleria literally eating the heart of a Demigod and draining the power of a Naaru.

The problem here is that this anti-niche, the corrupted race to mirror the redeemed, will create a race with many of the same features that made High Elf fans turn down Blood Elves in the first place. The very things that make Void Elves into reverse Blood Elves also make them reverse High Elves due to how similar their current states are.

So, we must find an unoccupied niche. Not Arcane Elves, not Wild Elves, not traditional High Elf as the Blood Elves have returned to, and not a simple inversion. Now, this probably wouldn't be that hard if Blizzard actually tried.

[FlubberPuddy]

Blood Elves don't play up their Ranger themes at all. The Farstriders are a back seat to their mage and paladin themes, to say this isn't true shows a real lack of understanding of how Blizzard has moved their story forward.

Hell Liadrin is more prominent to Blood Elf iconography than Lor'themar or Halduron. Trying to say this isn't true is being ignorant of how little Lor and Halduron have actually done. People make jokes about Lor'themar does nothing so very often, that should be enough clue to see that the Ranger aesthetic for Blood Elves is a back seat compared to their Magocracy and Holy Knight themes.

I mean if people don't want to accept it that's fine, I guess they say similar things about people wanting High Elves so at the end of the day it's pretty moot for either side I guess.

[Nexsa]

Well, from a belf player's perspective, I can tell you that Void Elves already makes me sad for the race I've been playing since BC. We've been asked for things like new, non-stupid facial hair and the removal of duckface for so, so long, and while thankfully we've gotten the latter, only Void Elves get the former. If High Elves were to be added, with all these awesome tribal tattoos, buff looks, feathers in their hair, why wouldn't I be annoyed? Look, more awesome customization for our model except oh, no, if you want to have that customization on your belf model you'd best be ready to abandon your story since BC, your guild, your faction, etc. Already we've been shown that we can be passed over for options many of us were dying to have, only to give them to the opposite faction. If this happened with some feature you cared about this much, you'd be pretty upset too.

On Alliance side, since Void Elves were introduces, I'd say that more than half the characters I run into are Void Elves. For one thing, I hate seeing a model I associate with Horde on Alliance, just as much as I hate seeing Nightborne on Horde. The idea that faction lines are undermined by these kind of races is entirely true, and despite some of you not much caring about faction identity, you don't speak for the entire playerbase. Some of us like how the Alliance and Horde look. Some of us don't want to trade races across faction.

It's called cost of opportunity. The implementation of something like a High Elf means that that customization is now barred to Blood Elves. We've already seen this with Void Elves, and I have to wonder if that race didn't exist if we'd maybe get some of those looks in the future. But now? Now we can't. There's a cost in adding High Elves as an Allied race in that it keeps the Alliance from getting something way more original. If it came down to High Elves vs. Sethrak, I'd be pissed if we got High Elves.

Yet another issue is the idea that there would ever be a "belf but better" race. Yes, I'm fully aware that better is subjective. I'm fully aware that some people would not see them as better. But as it is now, Blood Elves have looks that are low poly compared to Void Elves and so they look older already, and this problem would only get worse if High Elves were added. Further, Blood Elves are in a faction where NONE of the faction's identity matches with their cultural aesthetic, whereas Alliance gets very elegant looks that would entirely match Thalassian elves. This is especially true come BfA, where the Warfront sets are gorgeous, lovingly crafted, beautiful things, and the Horde gets, you guessed it, more spikes. So no, I don't want to see an improved, highly customized belf model sporting some of the most gorgeous armor I've ever seen, riding around on a beautiful updated horse. That IS the culture of Blood Elves. That IS their history.

Oh, and as an Allied race? You can bet they'd get to start at higher levels and have heritage armor. Great. A Thalassian heritage set. Only for High Elves. Cool. That would make two belf-looking races with leveling perks and race-specific armor. I suppose us belf players can stick with BC-quality belf-themed models for transmog, if we want race-based armor. Sure, that seems totally fair to us.

So this is why I, personally, don't want High Elves added. It's stepping on toes, it's insulting to the lore, it's an old, dead-end race. You have Alleria, you have her followers, including all those High Elves coming to the Rift to learn about the Void. Those ARE the ones that never left the Alliance. They ARE playable. So if you care about the lore, there. You have those exact High Elves. If you're only in this for the skin color and eyes, you may want to take a step back and evaluate exactly what you're asking for and how it would harm other players.

You can call me whatever names you want, I don't care. Think this is jealous and petty? Whatever. But the fact is, you can't dictate how these ideas make myself and many other Horde players feel, just as we can't tell you to care less about what you want. The people arguing on the other side from you are not robots, we play this game too, and our opinions on this game are worth exactly as much as yours. How we feel about races added and the future of the game are worth exactly as much as yours. Our desire to see High Elves remain unplayable is worth EXACTLY as much as your desire for them to be playable. And yes, we have real reasons for how we feel, just as you have real reasons for how you feel.

Great post. Sums up how I feel also.

[Ithekro]

Well, from a belf player's perspective, I can tell you that Void Elves already makes me sad for the race I've been playing since BC. We've been asked for things like new, non-stupid facial hair and the removal of duckface for so, so long, and while thankfully we've gotten the latter, only Void Elves get the former. If High Elves were to be added, with all these awesome tribal tattoos, buff looks, feathers in their hair, why wouldn't I be annoyed? Look, more awesome customization for our model except oh, no, if you want to have that customization on your belf model you'd best be ready to abandon your story since BC, your guild, your faction, etc. Already we've been shown that we can be passed over for options many of us were dying to have, only to give them to the opposite faction. If this happened with some feature you cared about this much, you'd be pretty upset too.

On Alliance side, since Void Elves were introduces, I'd say that more than half the characters I run into are Void Elves. For one thing, I hate seeing a model I associate with Horde on Alliance, just as much as I hate seeing Nightborne on Horde. The idea that faction lines are undermined by these kind of races is entirely true, and despite some of you not much caring about faction identity, you don't speak for the entire playerbase. Some of us like how the Alliance and Horde look. Some of us don't want to trade races across faction.

It's called cost of opportunity. The implementation of something like a High Elf means that that customization is now barred to Blood Elves. We've already seen this with Void Elves, and I have to wonder if that race didn't exist if we'd maybe get some of those looks in the future. But now? Now we can't. There's a cost in adding High Elves as an Allied race in that it keeps the Alliance from getting something way more original. If it came down to High Elves vs. Sethrak, I'd be pissed if we got High Elves.

Yet another issue is the idea that there would ever be a "belf but better" race. Yes, I'm fully aware that better is subjective. I'm fully aware that some people would not see them as better. But as it is now, Blood Elves have looks that are low poly compared to Void Elves and so they look older already, and this problem would only get worse if High Elves were added. Further, Blood Elves are in a faction where NONE of the faction's identity matches with their cultural aesthetic, whereas Alliance gets very elegant looks that would entirely match Thalassian elves. This is especially true come BfA, where the Warfront sets are gorgeous, lovingly crafted, beautiful things, and the Horde gets, you guessed it, more spikes. So no, I don't want to see an improved, highly customized belf model sporting some of the most gorgeous armor I've ever seen, riding around on a beautiful updated horse. That IS the culture of Blood Elves. That IS their history.

Oh, and as an Allied race? You can bet they'd get to start at higher levels and have heritage armor. Great. A Thalassian heritage set. Only for High Elves. Cool. That would make two belf-looking races with leveling perks and race-specific armor. I suppose us belf players can stick with BC-quality belf-themed models for transmog, if we want race-based armor. Sure, that seems totally fair to us.

So this is why I, personally, don't want High Elves added. It's stepping on toes, it's insulting to the lore, it's an old, dead-end race. You have Alleria, you have her followers, including all those High Elves coming to the Rift to learn about the Void. Those ARE the ones that never left the Alliance. They ARE playable. So if you care about the lore, there. You have those exact High Elves. If you're only in this for the skin color and eyes, you may want to take a step back and evaluate exactly what you're asking for and how it would harm other players.

You can call me whatever names you want, I don't care. Think this is jealous and petty? Whatever. But the fact is, you can't dictate how these ideas make myself and many other Horde players feel, just as we can't tell you to care less about what you want. The people arguing on the other side from you are not robots, we play this game too, and our opinions on this game are worth exactly as much as yours. How we feel about races added and the future of the game are worth exactly as much as yours. Our desire to see High Elves remain unplayable is worth EXACTLY as much as your desire for them to be playable. And yes, we have real reasons for how we feel, just as you have real reasons for how you feel.

Thank you for that. That is a much better response that anything Obelisk Kai has presented as an argument.
It rings much more true.

[KrakHed]

Blood Elves don't play up their Ranger themes at all. The Farstriders are a back seat to their mage and paladin themes, to say this isn't true shows a real lack of understanding of how Blizzard has moved their story forward.

Hell Liadrin is more prominent to Blood Elf iconography than Lor'themar or Halduron. Trying to say this isn't true is being ignorant of how little Lor and Halduron have actually done. People make jokes about Lor'themar does nothing so very often, that should be enough clue to see that the Ranger aesthetic for Blood Elves is a back seat compared to their Magocracy and Holy Knight themes.

I mean if people don't want to accept it that's fine, I guess they say similar things about people wanting High Elves so at the end of the day it's pretty moot for either side I guess.

I'm well aware that they take a backseat, but they're there and functionally not much different from the High Elf ones. The end result is that High Elves have part of the collective themes of the race as a whole, that is still supposed to be a politically influential portion of the main racial population even if their leaders are somewhat underutilized.

Which is, in itself, a problem. Two of three racial leaders are supposed to be rangers. Distancing Blood Elves even more from their remaining ranger identity would push those leaders even further into irrelevance when Blizzard should be pulling them out of that rut. It already feels weird having Liadrin take the Blood Elf leader chair in the Horde cinematic.

[FlubberPuddy]

I'm well aware that they take a backseat, but they're there and functionally not much different from the High Elf ones. The end result is that High Elves have part of the collective themes of the race as a whole, that is still supposed to be a politically influential portion of the main racial population even if their leaders are somewhat underutilized.

Which is, in itself, a problem. Two of three racial leaders are supposed to be rangers. Distancing Blood Elves even more from their remaining ranger identity would push those leaders even further into irrelevance when Blizzard should be pulling them out of that rut. It already feels weird having Liadrin take the Blood Elf leader chair in the Horde cinematic.

Highborne Night Elves joined the Alliance in Cata. It didn't stop Blizzard from taking that aesthetic which was going nowhere for their current plans for Night Elves and blow it up into its own thing for the Nightborne.

Not saying it's a sure thing to happen for High Elves but that it is possible for Blizzard to do if that's what they choose to do as the precedent has already been set.

It's not wrong to ask for more of that representation back on Blood Elves but it's pretty clear they want Blood Elves to become the Light Elves of the Horde and so the Ranger Aesthetic becomes even further removed from that.

- - - Updated - - -

Thank you for that. That is a much better response that anything Obelisk Kai has presented as an argument.
It rings much more true.

Eh it kind of comes across as whiny, but I agree it is much better response than what comes out of Obelisk.

[Ithekro]

Eh it kind of comes across as whiny, but I agree it is much better response than what comes out of Obelisk.

Perhaps it could be seen as whiny, but it is far more honest, and doesn't use tired logical arguments that no longer make sense within not only the lore, but within how systems are setup these days.

[FlubberPuddy]

Perhaps it could be seen as whiny, but it is far more honest, and doesn't use tired logical arguments that no longer make sense within not only the lore, but within how systems are setup these days.

True true, it's an honest explanation for sure.

[Hipnos14]

I've made this little concept with some friends that includes High Elves, more food for thought I suppose.

https://twitter.com/Hipnos14/status/996188157644300288

[Deleted]

better

Blood Elves retain their ancestral land, most of their population, most of their aesthetics and theme etc. They will probably for ever stay the most important Thalasian Elf faction, and that is fine - none in High Elf movement is against updating them, and for making them less interesting. I even myself to the large extend am driven by idea of making them unique again.

I won't call you names, instead of that ask You to try understand few things on the other hand. First of all, covering all Thalasian motifs by Blood Elves, doesn't necessarily serves them well, cause to have all properties, is the same as to have no properties.

Yes, this concepts are more recent, Void Elves are more recent, and High Elves - if added- it would be even more recent, when comes to making a model. You are right, that sucks. I understand, that You may by upset, and You are perfectly entitled to advocate in name of your race of choice. However this is not a reason for not making High Elves, but rather for demanding for the rest of the game to not stay in one place. These concepts are not focused on idea of being just upgraded, they are mostly focused on scrapped ideas, unused for decades. Not adding High Elves do not makes Blood Elves more nature themed, and even if it would - that won't serve their racial identity well.

It it actually making allied race, that motivated Blizzard to make golden eyes for the Blood Elves, and to fix models. Is that not enough? Yes, but it seems to be rather true, what I suspected all the time - they will put such work in making them unique only, if they will have no other choice than differentiate them. This is why High Elves fans are not Your opponent, when it comes for advocating for more attention for the Blood Elves.

fair to us.

I'm glad, that You bring problem of being fair. High Elves fans are here for decades - most follows Warcraft universe from the WC2, and WC3. Till this day, when You since twelve years already can play your race of choice - all the time, they got nothing. No, Void Elves are not the answer, neither compromise - as I tried to explain here - they destroy classical theme. They make loyal fans feel rather mocked, than satisfied. And it's despite they can be cool themselves as separate idea.

Would You really wan't to be as mocked, neglected and not heard yourself, by this so called "compromise", as people, who advocated for High Elves? Just listen to them for a moment. Your desire is as much important - yes. Although fulfillment of ones expectations does not always have to come from refusing of others needs. If only people are honest with each other, about how does specific decisions makes them feel, just as You are here.

I can only tell, that to share peace of cake with someone, who for years got nothing, does not always feel as loss.

[Sigxy]

Blood Elves don't play up their Ranger themes at all. The Farstriders are a back seat to their mage and paladin themes, to say this isn't true shows a real lack of understanding of how Blizzard has moved their story forward.

Hell Liadrin is more prominent to Blood Elf iconography than Lor'themar or Halduron. Trying to say this isn't true is being ignorant of how little Lor and Halduron have actually done. People make jokes about Lor'themar does nothing so very often, that should be enough clue to see that the Ranger aesthetic for Blood Elves is a back seat compared to their Magocracy and Holy Knight themes.

I mean if people don't want to accept it that's fine, I guess they say similar things about people wanting High Elves so at the end of the day it's pretty moot for either side I guess.

Well it's a good thing the Alliance already have a highly ranger themed race on their side so you won't need the high elves!

They're called Night Elves.