1. #5481
    Deleted
    You ask for the honest communication from the company, with customers. I never saw anything like that in all my whole life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    What is the reason behind the continous inclusion of high elves on the Alliance side? Is Blizzard including them because they want to taunt these players? Is Blizzard including them because they want them to be important, but not playable-important? What are the exact lines at which the faction wall is shattered and which cannot be crossed? How are void elves a more sensible option when most of the arguements that are given against high elves make an even stronger case against void elves? All these questions remain to be answered and can't be dumbed down to just one thing that we all know high elves have; blonde hair and a pretty neat look.
    It's simple. Conflict between similar and close, but hostile races catches attention and have potential. Blizzard is to some point aware of that, ant want to have profit from that. That's why they didn't hide High Elves, and even showed them on first plane. Although they don't want to take full responsibility of this, just to have cake and to eat cake in the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    After this, Blizzard should have actively engaged in communicating with the Alliance community as to how there could be enough difference given to high elves for them to be plausible on the Alliance. Let's say a comprise through.. half elves? This is the correct way this debate should've been handled. This is why bombing them with void elves out of nowhere, on top of ignoring points raised and refusing to accept responsibility for these requests' existence in the first place, was a completely wrong approach.
    One of the sides is trying start dialogue for years. Direction of expectations is clear, and usually not even goes the trail of the elves current shown in the game, but rather older, not anymore exposed ideas, High Elves fans proposed ways of making them distinct without harming theme in many ways, showing perfectly aware of necessity to compromise with game mechanics.
    Last edited by mmoc5cb4a68957; 2018-05-15 at 02:38 AM.

  2. #5482
    Quote Originally Posted by Hipnos14 View Post
    I've made this little concept with some friends that includes High Elves, more food for thought I suppose.

    https://twitter.com/Hipnos14/status/996188157644300288

    Credit where credit is due. Those San'layn look amazing. Well done.

    I wouldn't be me if I didn't say that those hypothetical High Elf racials seem, well, just a bit OP AF.
    Last edited by Enkrypt; 2018-05-15 at 02:45 AM.

  3. #5483
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkrypt View Post
    Credit where credit is due. Those San'layn look amazing. Well done.

    I wouldn't be me if I didn't say that those hypothetical High Elf racials seem, well, just a bit OP AF.
    All allied race racials are a bit OP, especially the Void elf ones. Keen eye is probably the only one that I'm a bit iffy on since it gives a REALLY big advantage to the High elves. High elves would basically be able to blast people without them being able to retaliate without moving closer.

  4. #5484
    I am Murloc! Geisl's Avatar
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    When you search the #Warcraft on Twitter this also pops up with 1.3k <3s !



    <3 for the High Elves

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  5. #5485
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    All allied race racials are a bit OP, especially the Void elf ones. Keen eye is probably the only one that I'm a bit iffy on since it gives a REALLY big advantage to the High elves. High elves would basically be able to blast people without them being able to retaliate without moving closer.
    Yeah, but ugh...

    Did you read about the increased resource regen and the 5% healing/damage/absorb shield ON TOP of an increased range from all ranged abilities? C'mon, have you even seen the Lightforged racials? Not all AR racials are OP, be honest. Those HE racials would effectively make them the most OP race ever in the game. Be real.

  6. #5486
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Highborne Night Elves joined the Alliance in Cata. It didn't stop Blizzard from taking that aesthetic which was going nowhere for their current plans for Night Elves and blow it up into its own thing for the Nightborne.
    Whilst that's true enough, the Highborne were always an addition that more ran counter to Night Elf themes rather than being a natural branch of them. The Highborne they recruited were literally demon-suckers. As for Blood Elf rangers being irrelevant, weren't Halduron and the Farstriders involved in the Hunter Hall?

    Honestly though, I find the High Elf question fascinating. Blizzard created Blood Elves in the first place because they were phasing out classic High Elves, even if some writers weren't on the same page, and I don't think they'll ever reverse that decision now that they made their Blizzard-twist High Elves(Blood Elves).

    So to me, the question is this. How does one make a High Elf that isn't just a standard generic Elf? Most suggestions I see here are just small variations on standard elf, or themes that'd be better suited to actually getting Night Elves back on track.

    But honestly, what are even the defining qualities of the remaining High Elves? Their current leader is Rhonin's waifu, and I can't think of a single other relevant High Elf character. They're mostly Vereesa's background dancers. Something can most certainly be done with them, but I'd definitely want to put some real thought into their cultural evolution. Analyzing the current whereabouts of their population, recent history, and actions instead of settling for standard elf.

  7. #5487
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkrypt View Post
    Yeah, but ugh...

    Did you read about the increased resource regen and the 5% healing/damage/absorb shield ON TOP of an increased range from all ranged abilities? C'mon, have you even seen the Lightforged racials? Not all AR racials are OP, be honest. Those HE racials would effectively make them the most OP race ever in the game. Be real.
    If you take away Keen Eye and replace it with something more mundane, it won't be more OP than Void elf racials.
    It'd just be one more inventory space, a shield that increases damage and absorbs a bit, and slightly higher resource regen, like 1% or something.

    In Pvp it wouldn't make a big difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    Whilst that's true enough, the Highborne were always an addition that more ran counter to Night Elf themes rather than being a natural branch of them. The Highborne they recruited were literally demon-suckers. As for Blood Elf rangers being irrelevant, weren't Halduron and the Farstriders involved in the Hunter Hall?

    Honestly though, I find the High Elf question fascinating. Blizzard created Blood Elves in the first place because they were phasing out classic High Elves, even if some writers weren't on the same page, and I don't think they'll ever reverse that decision now that they made their Blizzard-twist High Elves(Blood Elves).

    So to me, the question is this. How does one make a High Elf that isn't just a standard generic Elf? Most suggestions I see here are just small variations on standard elf, or themes that'd be better suited to actually getting Night Elves back on track.

    But honestly, what are even the defining qualities of the remaining High Elves? Their current leader is Rhonin's waifu, and I can't think of a single other relevant High Elf character. They're mostly Vereesa's background dancers. Something can most certainly be done with them, but I'd definitely want to put some real thought into their cultural evolution. Analyzing the current whereabouts of their population, recent history, and actions instead of settling for standard elf.
    There's plenty of Non-Vereesa characters that could have influence. Aurora Skycaller, Auric Sunchaser, Jalinde Summerdrake, etc.
    Some aren't well developed but they're there.

    I am also not interested in recolored Blood elves, I want them to evolve the High elf concept.
    I personally really like the idea of focusing on their bond with Wildhammers. By giving them the Shaman class and focusing on a more harmonic relationship with nature, a reduction in Arcane focus plus some newfound spiritualism, you can create a pretty unique Elf race, especially when contrasted to the Arcane focused, and highly materialist Blood elf society.

    The Blood elves have a really big focus on the Arcane theme. So moving High elves away from that theme not only fits well, but also has lore precedent. The Highvale High elves for instance completely stopped practicing Arcane. While they should still have the Mage class and such, Arcane shouldn't be their primary theme.
    Last edited by Gurluas; 2018-05-15 at 03:09 AM.

  8. #5488
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    If you take away Keen Eye and replace it with something more mundane, it won't be more OP than Void elf racials.
    It'd just be one more inventory space, a shield that increases damage and absorbs a bit, and slightly higher resource regen, like 1% or something.

    In Pvp it wouldn't make a big difference.
    In PvE it would make a huge difference. You could roll a HE Protection Paladin and be able to:

    -Pull from 2yds further.

    -Pop a shield that absorbed damage and amplified your damage and healing by 5%, while absorbing incoming damage.

    -Regenerate resources.

    That's just one example, albeit an entirely OP one. They are all off the charts OP for racials. Reduced spell pushback, a teleport, and an RNG 5% boost don't really touch that. The other races don't even come close.
    Last edited by Enkrypt; 2018-05-15 at 03:17 AM.

  9. #5489
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkrypt View Post
    In PvE it would make a huge difference. You could roll a HE Protection Paladin and be able to:

    -Pull from 2yds further.

    -Pop a shield that absorbed damage and amplified your damage and healing by 5%, while absorbing incoming damage.

    -Regenerate resources.

    That's just one example, albeit an entirely OP one. They are all off the charts OP for racials. Void Elves don't come close to that, and the other races, including Allied, don't even come close.
    What part of "If you take Keen eye away" don't you seem to get?
    The 2yd thing is something that in my opinion should go, but if it goes it really isn't more OP than Void elves.

    Void elves get a constant damage buff, their spellcasts aren't interrupted by damage, and they can teleport a distance away if they get in trouble.
    The resource regeneration would also be something really low like 1%

  10. #5490
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    What part of "If you take Keen eye away" don't you seem to get?
    The 2yd thing is something that in my opinion should go, but if it goes it really isn't more OP than Void elves.

    Void elves get a constant damage buff, their spellcasts aren't interrupted by damage, and they can teleport a distance away if they get in trouble.
    The resource regeneration would also be something really low like 1%
    Void elves get a 33% chance to get a 5% boost for 12 seconds on a 60 second cooldown. That's not "a constant damage buff". What don't you get about that? But I can see you've already over-exaggerated twice to help prove your point. Conveniently forgot you said "all Allied Racials are OP" I guess.

    I understand you don't like Keen Eye, but my original statement wasn't contingent on that, and I chose to disregard it. I believe Keen Eye would be the least OP of the three, anyway.

    Nice talk.
    Last edited by Enkrypt; 2018-05-15 at 03:23 AM.

  11. #5491
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkrypt View Post
    Void elves get a 33% chance to get a 5% boost for 12 seconds on a 60 second cooldown. That's not "a constant damage buff". What don't you get about that? But I can see you've already over-exaggerated twice to help prove your point. Conveniently forgot you said "all Allied Racials are OP" I guess.

    I understand you don't like Keen Eye, but my original statement wasn't contingent on that, and I chose to disregard it. I believe Keen Eye would be the least OP of the three, anyway.

    Nice talk.
    Really? That's surprising. Imagine if you're in a Pvp batte, you're slowed, and a high elf hunter is kiting you, constantly moving away, you're a ranged class but you can't even hit the Hunter because he's too far away. Or you're being bombarded by a Frost mage, and you can't use your counter spell because you're 2 yards far away. Sure you can move closer, but that's still a long time where you get slammed hard.

    I think it's the most OP...But yeah.

  12. #5492
    Master of the Void The Dark One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkrypt View Post
    I believe Ion's last statement still had the proverbial "kid gloves" on, but it was indeed meant to express an unwavering position on the matter.
    I like you, you get it.
    Fundamental civil rights are only "political" if you're trying to take them away from people.

  13. #5493
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    standard elf
    I would say classic. And I would not underestimate importance of them being classic. Cause the assumption that the classic is less interesting, lead us already to the Void Elf point of story. I disagree, that ranger themes are good rather for night elves, as I would like to see night elves rather being in green-elf-niche - more one with the nature. And I find ranger themes alone be not enough to do that. And I can only answer on how I would see it implemented myself. And cause I can't see it to be based on the Silver Covenant, I won't be able to answer question about characters.

    Elves in lodges, and elves allied with Wildhammer, seem to be better starting point. They have one common thing - they are out of the route of Quel'Thalas. Let the narrative flow, and think about it in longer therms - whatever happens to their former kingdom, if it will be Alliance siege, civil war, whatever decisions will be made there, in terms of use of controversial sources of magic, and possible future light devotion - they would have rather reasons to grow in distrust and try to continue interpretation their tradition in own way. Similar to the other elves - crucial for them are concepts of power source and/or balancing arcane and nature themes. They have no Sunwell. So turning more into forest-elves territory seems to be logical. They not only have no old home, but also experienced Scourge invasion, so they have reasons, to be show off some isolationism, present in all elfkind. They may not even be the ones seen in Alliance right now, but hiding in less inhabited now forests and mountains of Eastern Kingdoms, waiting to be recruited by Silver Covenant, as an allied race in future.

    Yes, this is very classical. This strongly in fact corresponds with Tolkien Elves, who once have majestic kingdoms, but in times were forced to rather live in forests. I have already mentioned idea of hidden forest city, as I'm rather tired of founding everything new on islands. I've been thinking of settlements like elves from the Arcanum had -

    http://www.gamer.ru/system/attached_...a2560x1600.jpg

    Not magical giant tree, neither ancient treants, but just normal buildings on trees. Blizzard showed with Highmountain, that they could be already capable for such experimentation. Notice boards - this society is not one with the nature.

    And here You have Tolkien elves - not Avari, but Eldars (High Elves) forced to live in forests and caves -
    https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...path-prefix=pl
    https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20131008104433
    Last edited by mmoc5cb4a68957; 2018-05-15 at 04:20 AM.

  14. #5494
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    If you take away Keen Eye and replace it with something more mundane, it won't be more OP than Void elf racials.
    It'd just be one more inventory space, a shield that increases damage and absorbs a bit, and slightly higher resource regen, like 1% or something.

    In Pvp it wouldn't make a big difference.

    There's plenty of Non-Vereesa characters that could have influence. Aurora Skycaller, Auric Sunchaser, Jalinde Summerdrake, etc.
    Some aren't well developed but they're there.

    I am also not interested in recolored Blood elves, I want them to evolve the High elf concept.
    I personally really like the idea of focusing on their bond with Wildhammers. By giving them the Shaman class and focusing on a more harmonic relationship with nature, a reduction in Arcane focus plus some newfound spiritualism, you can create a pretty unique Elf race, especially when contrasted to the Arcane focused, and highly materialist Blood elf society.

    The Blood elves have a really big focus on the Arcane theme. So moving High elves away from that theme not only fits well, but also has lore precedent. The Highvale High elves for instance completely stopped practicing Arcane. While they should still have the Mage class and such, Arcane shouldn't be their primary theme.
    Well, Blood Elves themselves have actually become rather spiritual lately, haven't they? That aside, there's only three population centers for the High Elves now, aren't there?

    Quel'Danil Lodge, Allerian Stronghold, and the Silver Covenant. Quel'Lithien went wretched, so we can ignore them quite safely. Quel'Danil is notable in having more prominent Draenei characters than High Elves for some fucking reason, as well as the Wildhammers you mentioned. I'm going to have to think on it to figure out what kind of cultural blend that could puke out. They've also given up on using magic.

    Allerian Stronghold is mostly a remnant of the everlasting union between man, dwarf, and elf. Survivors of Warcraft 2, more or less. Not sure what novel influence they could actually have. There's not much grabbing my attention with them.

    Our last group is the Silver Covenant, the only group of High Elves who have really been doing anything. And they're mostly described as a militant core of High Elves who have beef with the Blood Elves. They retain a lot of the arcane focus of the race, as suits Dalaran despite being led by a Ranger. What's more, they've been active in various locations where they could have picked up on interesting things. Much as Blood Elves figured out how to work with Anima.

    I could easily see them as being more loyal to Jaina than the rather wishy-washy Kirin Tor, of whom Jaina was the prophesied ruler for a laughably short period of time. Thus proving the pointlessness of prophecy when paired with inconsistent writing direction. Whatever the case, they don't really have a down to earth aesthetic. They dress fairly fancy.

    Now that I think about it, Blizzard has kind of been portraying the High Elves as fading into other cultures. I'm not seeing any single particular jumping off point, or even a core identity, beyond "Elves that stayed with the Alliance". Highvale Elves aren't much like the Silver Covenant and Dalarani Elves overall. Allerian Elves don't really share the history of either. Their ways of dealing with their addiction don't necessarily seem all that similar either.

    So, how do we bring all these fuckers together and make them work as a coherent whole?

  15. #5495
    Deleted
    Easy one - Elven Civil war, started by Alleria.

    Not enough to successfully retake Quel'Thalas, but enough to force the various known elven groups to take a stand. Easy to justify with increasing Alliance presence in Lordearon.
    Last edited by mmoc5cb4a68957; 2018-05-15 at 04:36 AM.

  16. #5496
    Quote Originally Posted by JdRobespierre View Post
    I would say classic. And I would not underestimate importance of them being classic. Cause the assumption that the classic is less interesting, lead us already to the Void Elf point of story.
    What led us to Void Elves is an inability to do subtlety. They're too on the nose, and not even a natural development of their story. But I have no real care for Classics. I can get them anywhere. I'm rather fond of the Blizzard spin they put on things, at least when they manage it competently. Void Elves are not an example of this. I actually strongly dislike any tendency towards "Classic" in Blizzard, because that kind of fucked over everything that made their Orcs good and interesting.

    Hell, one could argue that Blizzard created a new "Classic" mold for Orcs. And then fucked it up through nostalgic regression. Even Night Elves and the Alliance as a whole were probably fucked over by nostalgic regression to a "Classic", with Night Elf personality becoming more High Elvish and the Alliance more one-dimensional. As the writing has taken even more hits, I've reached a point where I just watch to see whatever creativity they have left.

    That entirely aside, I do understand the aesthetic you're shooting for.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JdRobespierre View Post
    Easy one - Elven Civil war, started by Alleria.

    Not enough to successfully retake Quel'Thalas, but enough to force the various known elven groups to take a stand. Easy to justify with increasing Alliance presence in Lordearon.
    The issue with Alleria is that she's more Void Elf than anything else now. And I don't think there are enough High Elves to actually threaten Quel'thelas these days. Still, I could see a leader inspiring and rounding them up. But I don't think you want them following in Alleria's path.

  17. #5497
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    -snip
    I don't get why you're so invested in this topic. Get a life.

  18. #5498
    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    What led us to Void Elves is an inability to do subtlety. They're too on the nose, and not even a natural development of their story. But I have no real care for Classics. I can get them anywhere. I'm rather fond of the Blizzard spin they put on things, at least when they manage it competently. Void Elves are not an example of this. I actually strongly dislike any tendency towards "Classic" in Blizzard, because that kind of fucked over everything that made their Orcs good and interesting.

    Hell, one could argue that Blizzard created a new "Classic" mold for Orcs. And then fucked it up through nostalgic regression. Even Night Elves and the Alliance as a whole were probably fucked over by nostalgic regression to a "Classic", with Night Elf personality becoming more High Elvish and the Alliance more one-dimensional. As the writing has taken even more hits, I've reached a point where I just watch to see whatever creativity they have left.

    That entirely aside, I do understand the aesthetic you're shooting for.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The issue with Alleria is that she's more Void Elf than anything else now. And I don't think there are enough High Elves to actually threaten Quel'thelas these days. Still, I could see a leader inspiring and rounding them up. But I don't think you want them following in Alleria's path.
    The reason for Void Elves is the necessity for strong visual distinction, because majority of the "suggested distinctions" other than the eye color carry the stigma of "why not just add it to blood elves tho"

    Alleria had potential to be interesting, before being hamstrung by Void Elves


    I think if we will ever see High Elf themed customisation optins it will just be rolled under blelves customisation...

  19. #5499
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    (...)
    You are right, I don't want them to follow. I just want Void Elves to play role of the bad guys - starting a war, using void, and maybe forcing blood elves to use fel in self defense again.

    Although Alleria is - still - respected enough by the High Elves, for them to be involved at least at the beginning. And starting of the war also opens the question of relation to its possible ending. And here differences may occur. I wrote here before, that only way I see Void Elves saved as a concept, is to make them Warhammer-like, and rejecting and questioning future authority of Quel'Thalas. This is path that Alleria could go - as she is clearly wiling to overtake Silvermoon, and clearly under some influence of void. In time (greater, than WoW lasting) they could even forgot for what sake did they started a war, and abandon their human allies.

    This is however route that High Elves would not go. Thus establishing new settlements. But question was about gathering together. And it is possible in such manner.

    I understand not everyone cares about classic themes. I just think that's is wrong to underestimate their influence, especially when it comes to requests for High Elves and reception of Void Elves. Seems enough people care. My whole point is here, that if High Elves would took most classical niche themselves, then Blizzard would have no other choice, than to start portraying Blood Elves and Night Elves as original again. Cause yes - they started to overlap that territory to much.
    Last edited by mmoc5cb4a68957; 2018-05-15 at 05:32 AM.

  20. #5500
    Quote Originally Posted by JdRobespierre View Post
    You are right, I don't want them to follow. I just want Void Elves to play role of the bad guys - starting a war, using void, and maybe forcing blood elves to use fel in self defense again.

    Although Alleria is - still - respected enough by the High Elves, for them to be involved at least at the beginning. And starting of the war also opens the question of relation to its possible ending. And here differences may occur. I wrote here before, that only way I see Void Elves saved as a concept, is to make them Warhammer-like, and rejecting future authority of Quel'Thalas. This is path that Alleria could go - as she is clearly wiling to overtake Silvermoon, and clearly under some influence of void. In time (greater, than WoW lasting) they could even forgot for what sake did they started a war, and abandon their human allies.

    This is however route that High Elves would not go. Thus establishing new settlements. But question was about gathering together. And it is possible in such manner.

    I understand not everyone cares about classic themes. I just think that's is wrong to underestimate their influence, especially when it comes to requests for High Elves and reception of Void Elves. Seems just enough people care. My whole point is here, that if High Elves would took most classical niche themselves, then Blizzard would have no other choice, than to start portraying Blood Elves and Night Elves as original again. Cause yes - they started to overlap that territory to much.
    Well, I don't ever expect the Blood Elves to ever go full Fel again, but I can see them retaining a pragmatic edge. Blood Elf is an edgy name, as is "Blood Knight", and they still favor red, black, and gold colors there. If they're going to use the Light, I still want to see it done on their own terms. I want them to retain some of their "True Masters of the Light" mentality, where they don't rely on either Human or Draenei philosophy.

    The thing I personally dislike about Void Elves is that I don't ever see them becoming a new classic. I don't see people looking back and actually remembering that they're part of the Alliance. Or even remembering them at all. The only fully-baked race the Alliance has gotten since Vanilla are the Draenei. If they wanted an allied race that might leave a real impression, instead of eyerolling, they'd have gone with the Krokul.

    But I digress. Your suggestion is interesting, and I suppose I agree that Void Elves probably shouldn't be the evolution of High Elves. Though they're probably going to leech off population if Alleria starts a war against Silvermoon as a popular figure, probably with more than just Void Elves behind her because a war needs numbers. The number issue also being why her intention to retake Silvermoon for the Alliance strikes me as a bit detached from the reality of her situation. I honestly wouldn't mind Void Elves turning out badly for the Alliance, or them being used to further help shape what High Elves become.

    Anyhow, I may as well sum up what personally stands out to me about the High Elf Population.

    Firstly, they're low in overall number, and what remains of that number consists primarily of far from home militants. High Elves could be said to be a militaristic populace by default. A population of soldiers will form a different culture than one with a fully intact civilian base like Silvermoon's.

    Secondly, they're kind of blended with other populations. Paired with their relatively small population, this might allow easy borrowing and spread of ideas. I've always been fond of the idea of some actually taking stuff from the Isle of Thunder. It could suit a race that is presently mostly composed of soldiers.

    Thirdly, they resent Blood Elves and would likely seek to distance themselves from anything they saw as distinctly Sin'dorei. This here is helpful. They even favor cooler colors like blue and silver over the Blood Elf red and gold. So whatever energies they deal with, whatever themes we use, I'd favor what maximized blue and silver.

    To make things short, I kind of favor the idea of more militarized High Elves serving as elite soldiers through one means or another. Being one of the more aggressive Alliance factions, as they were with the Silver Covenant. I may flesh out my thinking more when I'm more awake.
    Last edited by KrakHed; 2018-05-15 at 05:58 AM.

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