Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Aldo Hawk]

god the "Blizzard is wrong because I said so" arrogance is just off the charts.

You can't tell the difference between what is fact and your opinion and you want others to "open their minds?"

What are you trying to do? if blizzard is wrong on something because i can backup that i'm going to do that, in fact, it is you who is saying that i'm wrong because you say so. Nice try dude.

[Andromedes]

At least i don't delude myself thinking "devs are wrong, my fanfiction is the best and will come true".

So you agree that Falstad is dead, good to know.

[Obelisk Kai]

Two clearly defined sides, historically now due to the clear split going on since TBC and WRATH, expounded on in MoP, makes it so that these are not neutral in any shape of the word. There are High Elves and there are Blood Elves. Void Elves are allied to the High Elves (or the other way around perhaps) which are part of the Alliance. The Blood Elves are firmly allied to the Horde. None of these groups are designed nor start as neutral since TBC. They are defined and separated by their respective over-faction/world superpower.

The neutral story problem, as seen with the Pandaren, is not in play here even in the slightest way.

They are defined only by their respective faction. That is it. Only it. Thematically they are identical. Appearance wise they are identical.

Every complaint about playable High Elves for the Alliance was addressed by the creation of Void Elves.

They look different from Blood Elves, we have no objection.

They have a different theme from Blood Elves, we have no objection.

Void Elves do not compromise the faction boundaries between Horde and Alliance. Void Elves do not undermine Blood Elves as the true High Elves of WoW by appearing to be a more traditional, nobler, human friendly group.

No matter how much you try to deny it, the Void Elf is the answer to the question posed by this thread at the beginning, how to make a group of High Elves distinct from Blood Elves to qualify as an Allied race. All the approaches suggested failed because each of them could have been duplicated by a cosplaying Blood Elf.

Only Void Elves, Blizzard's answer, works.

[Arrashi]

So you agree that Falstad is dead, good to know.

No, i agree that if dev says they won't be implementing something into game, they won't be doing it. No matter how hard some "fans" are screaming.

[Andromedes]

No, i agree that if dev says they won't be implementing something into game, they won't be doing it. No matter how hard some "fans" are screaming.

No, you just said, that red shirt guy is fanfictionist and devs are right.

[Arrashi]

No, you just said, that red shirt guy is fanfictionist and devs are right.

And how does some random obscure lore tidbit relate to design decisions that are planned years in advance ?

[Ithekro]

The only somewhat convincing stance I've seen about High Elves is the existence of the Silver Covenant. But they have not been meaningful or relevant since Wrath of the Lich King.

Please show me another convincing argument that doesn't require mental gymnastics and perversions of the current story that, in short, is: Blood Elves are the new High Elves, and there aren't enough High Elves to constitute a playable faction, which is Blizzard's official stance. As well as their belief that the High Elves are currently playable, in the form of Blood Elves on the Horde faction. And as you read this, I bet you're drooling impatiently to say, "If Void Elves can be playable, so can High Elves." Don't forget, Void Elves only exist to silence the screeching Alliance masses, not to make any real sense. That's why they feel so cheap.

Not a single one of you have refuted that point to a degree that makes sense. Don't pretend the tallies are beginning to add up in your favor. That's a lie.

- - - Updated - - -



You didn't prove anything. You said something, that's it.

Pandaren were added to both factions simultaneously.

Blood Elves were added to the Horde over a decade ago.

The Pandaren situation is not relevant to High Elves, at all. Adding them ten years later to the Alliance is not the same as adding them simultaneously. And obviously the Pandaren race did suffer from being cross-faction. Even Blizzard admitted it. I don't require your seal of approval on that to know it's true. You didn't prove a single thing other than you think the word prove is spelled with two o's.

Wow. The point missed you entirely. On all fronts. You took in nothing and came back with entirely something unrelated to the points being made.

On the first point, High Elves have still be used in Alliance content all the way up until Legion, though I can say that if you only play Horde you will mostly not have seen them, just like I missed the Blood Elf content in WoD, because you would only see that if you play Horde. Both of my Horde characters missed most of WoD and went right to Legion due to how fast XP was coming before the scaling change this year. And if Void Elves feel cheap, that's because the lore they are based on is so thin it hurts. If they had been High Elves converted to the Void, than this thread would be a lot shorter. Like 200 pages shorter. But they are Blood Elves who were researching the Void to find a weapon to use to defend Silvermoon....and than they get all mutated up and join the Alliance to fight the Horde. (sarcasm) Great idea, that will surely quell the Alliance players (/sarcasm). Stupid plot missed the point entirely and provides a model only, which was not the point in the first place.

As to the Pandaren/High Elf/Blood Elf/Void Elf thing. The point people keep bringing them up for is the model is on both sides and that in and of itself has not caused an issue, be it in the world at large or in PvP. The Pandaren's storyline has caused issues as it can't be moved forwards within their respective factions because neither group has any real investment in the Horde nor Alliance. Its just a player choice at the end of their starting zone. The Pandaren characters have no agency in their respective factions to allow for more meaty story content.

Having both High Elf and Blood Elf models in play is only similar to the Pandaren in that both sides have Pandaren models, thus both sides would have the Elf model. The actual story content, introduction of said groups into said factions for the Elves would be entirely different. Two separate factions of elves in two separate factions of World of Warcraft. Both starting in different places and telling different stories. One would have two starting zones (and have had them since TBC, though they desperately need a revamp and inclusion into the rest of Azeroth) the other would have a starting hub someplace (likely Dalaran or Stormwind, though it could be in Outland) with the Alliance unlock quest chain being who knows where currently (depends on how one wants to go about telling that story). But it wouldn't interfere with the Horde's Blood Elves starting zones at all.

That is part of the beauty of Allied Races as a system. No need for a starting zone, and less need for a sizable population.

[Friendlyimmolation]

What are you trying to do? if blizzard is wrong on something because i can backup that i'm going to do that, in fact, it is you who is saying that i'm wrong because you say so. Nice try dude.

No, you're wrong because you're trying to say that your own opinions hold more weight that the opinion Blizzard has consistently held for over ten years.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow. The point missed you entirely. On all fronts. You took in nothing and came back with entirely something unrelated to the points being made.

On the first point, High Elves have still be used in Alliance content all the way up until Legion, though I can say that if you only play Horde you will mostly not have seen them, just like I missed the Blood Elf content in WoD, because you would only see that if you play Horde. Both of my Horde characters missed most of WoD and went right to Legion due to how fast XP was coming before the scaling change this year. And if Void Elves feel cheap, that's because the lore they are based on is so thin it hurts. If they had been High Elves converted to the Void, than this thread would be a lot shorter. Like 200 pages shorter. But they are Blood Elves who were researching the Void to find a weapon to use to defend Silvermoon....and than they get all mutated up and join the Alliance to fight the Horde. (sarcasm) Great idea, that will surely quell the Alliance players (/sarcasm). Stupid plot missed the point entirely and provides a model only, which was not the point in the first place.

As to the Pandaren/High Elf/Blood Elf/Void Elf thing. The point people keep bringing them up for is the model is on both sides and that in and of itself has not caused an issue, be it in the world at large or in PvP. The Pandaren's storyline has caused issues as it can't be moved forwards within their respective factions because neither group has any real investment in the Horde nor Alliance. Its just a player choice at the end of their starting zone. The Pandaren characters have no agency in their respective factions to allow for more meaty story content.

Having both High Elf and Blood Elf models in play is only similar to the Pandaren in that both sides have Pandaren models. The actual story content, introduction of said groups into said factions for the Elves would be entirely different. Two separate factions of elves in two separate factions of World of Warcraft. Both starting in different places and telling different stories. One would have two starting zones (and have had them since TBC, though they desperately need a revamp and inclusion into the rest of Azeroth) the other would have a starting hub someplace (likely Dalaran or Stormwind, though it could be in Outland) with the Alliance unlock quest chain being who knows where currently (depends on how one wants to go about telling that story). But it wouldn't interfere with the Horde's Blood Elves starting zones at all.

That is part of the beauty of Allied Races as a system. No need for a starting zone, and less need for a sizable population.

I guess it's also the beauty of completely ignoring everything Blizzard has said in an attempt to spin high elves as anything other than a small possibility in the future.

It is nothing short of hilarious to see people scramble to say that the void elves and the pandaren are great examples of why high elves should happen when you have blizzard saying they didn't like how Pandaren worked and more recently saying if you wanted a majestic, pale elf, that's on the Horde.

Void elves are the way they are because you are not going to get high elves, no matter how many times you say "But the allied races," because that's not the issue, the issue is that Blizzard does not want to give you high elves, and they sure as hell won't be as long as there are two factions.

[Obelisk Kai]

So you agree that Falstad is dead, good to know.

When presented with evidence of a mistake within the game's lore, the devs rectified it.

The game's lore is internally consistent, and a mistake like that is more than possible. It was mixing up two dwarves, akin to getting a date wrong or the name of a minor NPC correct.

A statement such as 'Blood Elves are High Elves' is far more fundamental to the nature of the game than the identity of a minor NPC, and to equate a minor error that they rapidly rectified such as that with throwing doubt on the blood elves are high elves statement is grasping at best.

There is going to be no moment when a fan offers proof that High Elves are distinct from Blood Elves because no such proof exists. The reason no such proof exists is that Blood Elves and High Elves being the same thing is a story familiar to everyone who has played Warcraft 3 and WoW since 2003.

This is why High Elves aren't planned. Because they already were planned. in TBC.

- - - Updated - - -

And how does some random obscure lore tidbit relate to design decisions that are planned years in advance ?

Because he is using a classic strawman argument.

Because the devs were wrong on Falstad, they cannot be infallible.

If the devs cannot be infallible, quoting their words in an argument is pointless and cannot be regarded as an absolute.

Never mind that it was just a minor point of lore and that it is being compared to something as major as adding High Elves to the game for a second time.

[Deleted]

damaged the Pandaren

So it damaged the Pandaren, not this legendary "faction wall"?

Well, clearly such damage doesn't threaten Thlalasian elves, as their divide seems rather strong, well-reasoned and deeply rooted in the story. For many times it have been used by Blizzard in story, with quite good effects. And for all that time their development was rather parallel, than merged.

Moreover High Elves fans do not advocate for neutral starting position, as it would destroy them both. And - in the case of Pandaren we have no such popularity, and neither was there ever for them any demand.

So I'm afraid Blizzard's disappointment of Pandaren doesn't apply to this case so easily.

[KrakHed]

So at this point our reasoning goes different ways, cause for me Silver Covenant would be interesting rather as connection between Alliance, and more ranger themed groups. I can't see them as being inspiring themselves, however I am open to other points of view. I was thinking rather of some refugee/exile camp revealing itself under the influence of Alliance in Lordearon, partially solving population problem. However only partially. Anyway, it's true that low population is a basic obstacle here, if not for the establishment playable race, then for the story story go. I would be open to retcons here, if they were necessary, and gave good effect.

Although what acts as obstacle in High Elf independent development, becomes advantage in possible Void Elves independent development. I actually suggested much more far-eaching scenario here -

Personally, I'm not too focused on the Silver Covenant themselves. I'm focused on the circumstances of each High Elf population, trying to figure out what they have in common and what sets them apart.

Allerian High Elves are second war veterans, with no real civilian population. Quel'Danil are rangers through and through. While they may not have the same combat experience, they're still a military unit. The Silver Covenant may have more initial Dalaran civilians, but they're described first and foremost as militants. I don't see there being consistent High Elf culture at this stage, but I do see that as a common trait.

Other than that, they're known for mingling with other races. Their most prominent lore character has Half-Elf children. If we include Alleria with them, then their two most prominent characters had Half-Elf children. And Quel'Danil has close ties with Draenei and Wildhammers. Given that they're a low population, that also means that genetic intrusion would leave a stronger impact.

There is currently no High Elf population living on its own, as far as I'm aware. So we've got those two points. No concentrated civilian cultural base, that would be Silvermoon, and a low population surrounded by other races. If, as a result of the war, the Blood Elves cut off High Elf pilgrims from visiting the Sunwell, that'd sever their last real ties to their greater culture. If they went so far as to completely shut the High Elves off from the Sunwell, that'd sever the two for good.

If I were to guess on projected physical changes, ignoring any external forces I could imagine, I'd see them serving as the base race for a blended half-elf population. Not just half-humans, but even Draenei mixture would make sense with how they're getting along in Quel'Danil. They're both longlived races too, so they'd be capable of forming longer relationships. Dwarf mixture is probably theoretically possible, but fantasy authors seem to have distaste for Dwarves getting it on with other races. Being short and hairy and all, and people would see pairing them with Elves as kind of fucking up both races instead of forming a more elegant hybrid. If they end up associating with Void Elves, that would also likely infiltrate their lineage.

Of course, such a blending would never be complete within a reasonable timescale for WoW. It'd definitely create very Alliance-borne elves, but Blizzard favored rapid mutation for the Void Elves for a reason. Forcing sudden change is quicker and easier than writing a consistent narrative with a focused goal.

And if I were to bullshit sudden physical change? I'd recognize that the Silver Covenant should have been fucking with Mogu shit on the Isle of Thunder. If they wanted independence from the Blood Elves and their Sunwell, and any threat of being cut off, Jaina could have helped them with the power she recovered there. Giving them a sort of electric flair, empowered by titanic magic.

On that side note, the Mogu also had a cure for the curse of flesh, and I always wondered how it'd work if you applied that to a non-titanforged race. That's the direction I'd go if I wanted to make literal silver elves. That's the direction I'd have gone if I really wanted to induce sudden physical and aesthetic mutation, whereas the Wildhammer-inspired looks I see here are closer to what I'd go with if I wanted to show a gradual change.

Either way, I'd go with them being elite Alliance shock troops. They're a population of combat veterans extremely loyal to Alliance ideals and with a grudge against the Horde. I'd almost certainly use them as Jaina's personal army, following her rather than wishy-washy Kirin Tor. So in the end, I might focus on the Silver Covenant because it's an active military unit that's been actively doing shit, and should have had opportunity to pick up new sources of power if Blizzard cared to write that in.

[Aldo Hawk]

Blood Elves and High Elves are the same race divided by a political opinion.

Tushui and Huojin Pandaren are the same race divided by a political opinion.

This is self evident.

It's self evident if you dumb down the question as you are doing here.

HE would not going to be a race with the same options as Pandaren have in both factions, they would be alliance by any ways, with their own paraphernalia, and BE the same, the other people on the other faction with their own paraphernalia.

BE and HE aren't by close anything related to how Pandaren are built up in the game, BE and HE aren't a neutral race and will not be if HE get added.

If Pandaren are used as an argument is for pointing that even the exact same race in two factions do not damage them, it makes the two factions more diverse by having something from the other side, and with the HE would happen to make something that Pandaren can't bring, and that is faction conflict agains the horde.

You are just being dishonest when giving such plain and uncomplete responses, really, it seems that you just want to oppose for the sake of oppose.

[Obelisk Kai]

So it damaged the Pandaren, not this legendary "faction wall"?

Well, clearly such damage doesn't threaten Thlalasian elves themselves, as their divide seems rather strong, well-reasoned and deeply rooted in the story. For many times it have been used by Blizzard in story, with quite good effects. And for all that time their development was rather parallel, than merged.

Moreover High Elves fans do not advocate for neutral starting position, as it would destroy them both. And - it case of Pandaren we have no such popularity, and neither was there ever for them any demand.

So I'm afraid Blizzard's disappointment of Pandaren doesn't apply to this case so easily.

The Pandaren damaged the faction wall. Thankfully because of the nature of their introduction this damage was confined mostly to themselves.

By that I mean Pandaren were introduced at the same time to both factions and their entire plotline within Mists of Pandaria was based around that neutrality. Yet despite that the concept still failed, Pandaren feel rootless and both factions suffered a loss of distinctiveness.

Blood Elves are High Elves. And Blood Elves were introduced over a decade ago as a Horde race. Making a race that has been Horde for over a decade de facto neutral, and the most popular Horde race at that, would render the faction wall a bad joke.

Blizzard expressed these sentiments in the recent Q and A when the reason given for no playable High Elves was an unacceptable blurring of the faction wall, the lesson learned from the Pandaren.

- - - Updated - - -

It's self evident if you dumb down the question as you are doing here.

HE would not going to be a race with the same options as Pandaren have in both factions, they would be alliance by any ways, with their own paraphernalia, and BE the same, the other people on the other faction with their own paraphernalia.

BE and HE aren't by close anything related to how Pandaren are built up in the game, BE and HE aren't a neutral race and will not be if HE get added.

If Pandaren are used as an argument is for pointing that even the exact same race in two factions do not damage them, it makes the two factions more diverse by having something from the other side, and with the HE would happen to make something that Pandaren can't bring, and that is faction conflict agains the horde.

You are just being dishonest when giving such plain and uncomplete responses, really, it seems that you just want to oppose for the sake of oppose.

And you overcomplicate it.

It is very simple. Blood Elves are High Elves. The High Elf fantasy is therefore available to anyone who wishes to partake of it. If you want to play a High Elf but are not doing so, it is not because they aren't available but because you have made the choice not to play them.

You have as much right to play an Alliance High Elf as I do to play a Horde Gnome.

And while we both can play Pandaren, they proved neutrality was a failure.

[serendipity11]

You place undue emphasis on the later and nowhere near enough on the former. He offered merely a soft let-down, a platitude with the intent that if in the far future they DO decide to do this, some poster won't turn around after the fact on another topic and say 'but you said never on playable High Elves so when you said never on this you clearly cannot mean it'.

He gave an extremely clear no, and backed it up with an almost immutable rationale, that the faction wall cannot be blurred. The real debate isn't about playable High Elves, although that is where your focus is, it is whether you can get Blizzard to decide the differences between the factions aren't worth it.

Good luck with that.





Your current argument is that because he said anything in the future is possible you get to ignore the thrust of his argument, that High Elves are already playable, that Void Elves are a High Elf variant on the Alliance and that High Elves aren't on the radar at all. I long ago gave up trying to determine if you were being sarcastic or serious.

- - - Updated - - -



But the Humans failed to take Lordaeron.

*cough* Excuse me? I'm ultimately neutral on this issue. But that is the worst "excuse" not to add high elf ever. "To many elves" or "to similar to a currently playable race" is much more valid but "Blur the faction lines" lolwut? Have you heard of the race called Pandaren? Did blizzard just magically forget they exist? They have literally no physical difference between faction and can even talk to each other cross faction. Blue eyes blood elves on the alliance have more differences then the different factions of pandaren. The lines have already been blurred with one race. I don't see the harm in doing it with another.

To be fair my idea of a compromise is normal high/blood elf skin options and hair colour options for void elves so people can at least RP as a high elf without blizzard making yet another elf race that isn't unique at all.

[Aldo Hawk]

No, you're wrong because you're trying to say that your own opinions hold more weight that the opinion Blizzard has consistently held for over ten years.

Yeah, it's opinions when you don't want to point to anything. And it's facts when nobody pointed it already. And even you have the guts to say that opinions matter more depending on what sounds more likable to you....

Get lost and don't try to troll me anymore. Talk to me in a proper way or don't expect anything.

- - - Updated - - -

And you overcomplicate it.

It is very simple. Blood Elves are High Elves. The High Elf fantasy is therefore available to anyone who wishes to partake of it. If you want to play a High Elf but are not doing so, it is not because they aren't available but because you have made the choice not to play them.

You have as much right to play an Alliance High Elf as I do to play a Horde Gnome.

And while we both can play Pandaren, they proved neutrality was a failure.

Overcomplicate?

Pandaren is a neutral race that works exactly the same in both factions, HE and BE not, is that complicated to you?

And neutrality is a failure because Pandaren can be played in both factions, how is that?

And don't confuse yourself, i'm horde, i always played horde from 2009, and i never leveled an alliance character, so is not 'both of us' playing Pandaren as you suggest.

Stop transforming this into a faction war, it isn't, HE does not undermine Horde, it improoves the conflic between the factions by giving one more rival to BE (and one very fitting) and by extent The Horde.

[serendipity11]

The problem with the phrase 'blood elves are high elves' as an argument is that is quite easy to just look around in-game and find how there are thalassian elves with blue eyes, working with the alliance, that have never been considered to be blood elves.

There is a disctintion between both elf groups, it has always existed, even back in vanilla... i don't understand why suddenly people intentionally forget about it. So i'll repeat it again:
All blood elves are high elves.
Not all high elves are blood elves.

It has nothing to with the fact that they are indeed the same race, it has to do with the fact that they've been written to consider temselves two different things, something that anyone can notice just by playing the game btw.

Romulans are Vulcans.

[Deleted]

If Blood Elves are High Elves, then how is it possible, that they were introduced as Horde, despite they were already introduced much more earlier than decade ago, in Alliance, and are there present to this day?

But more seriously - Blood Elves were not High Elves when introduced. That's the point.

Despite many of You suggesting, that it is High Elves fans, who are bluntly pushing here agenda, many of You are the same people, who for years were advocating for justify Blood Elves, and start to present Blood Elves as innocent, manifesting your sympathies in form of all that "psychovegan" rhetoric. Thus rather pushing Blizzard to destroy their concept, than accepting logic, that You now would like to enforce on others - "If You want to play innocent, untainted elf, Alliance is there for You".

Except it's not, despite it should already be long ago. Because to a large extent You have succeed. High Elves fans are just the only ones, who remember, that Horde Thalasian elves were at first point never meant to be, what You so strongly wanted them to be. Couse that was those not playable ones.

[Ithekro]

Romulans are Vulcans.

Exactly

Federation players shouldn't be able to play as a Vulcan in Star Trek Online because the Romulans are a playable race and faction (current Blizzard logic on High Elves).
Yeah, that would go over really well with the fan base in Star Trek.

[serendipity11]

Exactly

Federation players shouldn't be able to play as a Vulcan in Star Trek Online because the Romulans are a playable race and faction (current Blizzard logic on High Elves).
Yeah, that would go over really well with the fan base in Star Trek.

Also despite the fact that the common heritage has been noted several times they are still considered distinct species at pretty much every turn. Despite spocks attempts at reunification that were about as politically different as possible.

[Deleted]

if dev says they won't be implementing something into game, they won't be doing it

* Until they change their mind again.