Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I assume that's because San'layn are more vampire than elf. Elf and vampire themes overlap. They're high class, fancy, magical, immortal, beautiful, proud, often have pointy ears, and so on. But vampires do it all in a distinctly vampire way, so it kind of erases the elf identity. Their twist places them in an extremely different niche where they won't step on any toes.

Of course, it'd be annoying to have yet another Horde elf, but they could focus on the monstrous side more than the elf. That's the selling point of the San'layn.

With High Elves, I'm not seeing a strong core identity built in that would be able to survive lazy writers. A vampire can't just be written as a generic elf without personality or identity, you can't just write them without thought to the backstory that separates them from any random D&D inspired basic elf.

High Elves are different. I feel that if High Elves are not marked by their history, Blizzard's lazier writers will forget it. Thus will begin an erosion of any identity constructed for them, and they'll eventually wind up essentially indistinguishable from Blood Elves or the already watered-down Night Elves.

So I'm mostly looking around this thread for an idea that's idiot-proof. That distinctly reflects and builds upon Blizzard's High Elves and what separates them from the other Elves in the setting.

If you get down to it, Modern High Elves could be easily defined as a group of immigrants that broke of from their nation politically, who's culture now is being hybridized by their host's culture.

That would be a pretty unique take on elves as an immigrant story, which is basically a lot of their context by being thalassian elves on the alliance. Cultural syncretism, culture clash, reforging of tradition, there's a LOT blizzard could draw inspiration from.

IMO this approach would would for either High Elves or Half Elves, but regardless, there is already a whole set up to tell this story. Dalaran is already a multicultural city where we can see the hybridization of human and elven culture and its people, where the Silver Covenant was formed, who was called out by Elisande as "elves that diluted their bloodline with lesser races." There's so much potential for High Elven lore to actually be about that eroded identity.

I'd like High Elves to be playable, but a big reason of that is because I see a lot of potential on the place they have occupied on the alliance since WarII, there's so much unique history to them as a people in terms of experience that separates them from Blood Elves and Void Elves, an experience that could lead them to an interesting place.

I have to admit that I see more potential on the legacy of their heritage rather than who they are "now," so while I'd really like HE to be playable, I think that Half Elves actually would be the most interesting result of High Elf lore.

- - - Updated - - -

SI:7 have had story moments in multiple expansions and nobody says they should be the next allied race.

It's a tool. Nothing more than a prop. Blizzard had a story to tell and it is not their fault people saw more in the SC than was ever intended.

Humans, gnomes, draenei, dwarves, all those SI:7 members that are already playable, except for the one goblin (on the alliance at least)

Yeah dude, that's really not the same than the group almost exclusively showcased to be comprised of High Elves (a non playable race)

And it's definitively Blizzard's fault that they gave this non playable faction more screen time than other groups. It wouldn't be the same issue of the SC was instead made of playable alliance races (it could have been humans and gnomes with some helves)

[melzas]

SI:7 have had story moments in multiple expansions and nobody says they should be the next allied race.

It's a tool. Nothing more than a prop. Blizzard had a story to tell and it is not their fault people saw more in the SC than was ever intended.

Wow what a stupid conparison. SI:7 is a race now? Get a grip, you are just talking nonsense for the sake of argument.

[Traveler Voltin]

So with the new before the storm preview out.
I suggest you high elf fans shut up.
calia is killed off

[Shinkishi]

So with the new before the storm preview out.
I suggest you high elf fans shut up.
calia is killed off

What does that have to do with high elves?

[Traveler Voltin]

What does that have to do with high elves?

Annoying blizzard might get the remaining high elves killed off.
Common sense.

[Shinkishi]

Annoying blizzard might get the remaining high elves killed off.
Common sense.

Still not following. What does she have to do with high elves? You know she's human, right?

[Ithekro]

What does that have to do with the price of Arcwine in Silvermoon (excellent vintage by the way, has a Netherlord fel musk to the arcane berries flavor)?

I mean, sure that could come to be a plot point in the novel and which point we would get some lore closure, and that's fine. As long as Blizzard does something with the dangling High Elf threads instead of repeatedly holding them out there and then going "oh no you play that, got join the Horde, they have something that is essentially that".

[serendipity11]

I would say rather Mogu, Naga, and Ethereals - they are kind of big races, with strong tendencies to maintain independence. In example of Zandalari bringing such race to one faction already felt a little bit forced.


Unfortunately I have to admit - they are. When it comes to number of players.

In some way Nightborne were probably a first try to match their score. I'm afraid, that they may not be so successful. Perhaps not enough story and character followed their pure Drow aesthetics, yet. Perhaps they have been redeemed and simplified too quickly, and too hasty even for WoW. And perhaps I'm wrong here, or it's to early to evaluate.

Vampires seem to be second try.

I like Nightborne a lot. They were never meant to be drow any more than night elves were. The story is thestory. When it was done they weren't intended to be playable. That's clear with the npc models versus player models.

Also people keep bringing up vampires, vampyr, or San'layn but is there any source to this? Or is it pure conjecture?

The only evidence are the reminent San'layn showing up in Zandalar which hardly indicates a playable race. Vulpera are infinitely more likely and even they haven't been confirmed.

[BTHSE]

So with the new before the storm preview out.
I suggest you high elf fans shut up.
calia is killed off

Annoying blizzard might get the remaining high elves killed off.
Common sense.

Did.. did you think that Calia was Veressa for a hot minute there..? That's the only way I can make sense of what you're saying. Calia is the last remaining heir to the throne of Lordaron, she's got nothing to do with High Elves.

[serendipity11]

Would half elves be an acceptable alternative?

They'd use a heavily modified human skeleton to give them a more elven appearance with a human build. Their ears wouldn't by quite as exaggerated. It's not unique in fantasy but it is unique in WoW. They're uncommon but if void elves are playable I don't see why not tbh. They're distinct from blood elves and high elves. Unlike high elves they can't exist in the horde as blood elves. People keep bringing up how modern High elves, and Human cultures intermingle. That's not the only thing that intermingle. I think a group of half elves becoming playable would be cool.

- - - Updated - - -

So with the new before the storm preview out.
I suggest you high elf fans shut up.
calia is killed off

Does she get raised as an undead and turned into Sylvanas' concubine?

[Obelisk Kai]

Pandaren is a neutral race that works exactly the same in both factions, HE and BE not, is that complicated to you?

Blood Elves are High Elves.

Tushui are Pandaren. Huojin are Pandaren.

Playable Alliance High Elves sole difference from Blood Elves is their political alignment.

The sole difference between Tushui and Huojin Pandaren are their political alignments.

Alliance High Elves therefore de facto turn the Horde's most popular race neutral.

As I said, it is very simple.

And neutrality is a failure because Pandaren can be played in both factions, how is that?

Neutrality failed the Pandaren because it crippled any further story potential they can have.

Neutrality failed the Alliance and Horde by blurring the lines between the faction to an unacceptable extent and that was with a race designed and introduced as neutral with a theme of neutrality and a storyline of balance and neutrality.

You are attempting to justify that Pandaren worked when all the evidence we have, including the fact Blizzard has failed to introduce any further neutral races in six years, a dev tweet showing they were unhappy with how it worked and Ion's recent comments indicating that maintaining faction diversity is a top priority shows that the concept of a neutral race failed.

Again, just because you believe the opposite does not make it true. You hold a contrarian opinion because you want playable Alliance High Elves. Because you want playable Alliance High Elves, you are willing to overlook or twist actual facts, or disregard what the devs say, because they are an impediment to your goal.

You argument is hopelessly biased. Of course you will argue I am biased as well, and I admit that, but my biases match what the developers clearly want for the game. This is why I can quote sources, both in game and out, to support my positions.

And don't confuse yourself, i'm horde, i always played horde from 2009, and i never leveled an alliance character, so is not 'both of us' playing Pandaren as you suggest.

Stop transforming this into a faction war, it isn't, HE does not undermine Horde, it improoves the conflic between the factions by giving one more rival to BE (and one very fitting) and by extent The Horde.

High Elves do undermine Horde. Again, this is a contrarian position you have adopted based on a personal goal that you have the luxury of taking because you are not a developer. The developers have to take a holistic view of the entire game. If they feel High Elves would damage the lines between the faction, the faction wall, then they are correct and you are wrong. You are wrong because you are biased. You are biased because your goal of playable High Elves means you would be incentivized to minimize or ignore the negative consequences of playable High Elves.

Your final assertion, that HE would improve the faction conflict by giving the Blood Elves a rival, is subjective. While possible, it is not worth the cost to the identity of the Horde and the role of the Blood Elves to allow this thematic intrusion. Void Elves now more than fulfil this role of 'rival' you postulate, given they are traitors that are ideologically opposed to Silvermoon on every level. High Elves offer nothing a Void Elf cannot in terms of rivalry. Void Elves offer the void theme contrast to Blood Elves which High Elves cannot.

High Elves are irrelevant.

[Darththeo]

That they'll end up charging for it is conjecture on my part, but at the same time do you honestly believe that they're going to spend resources on developing the platform, software (to their standards), the servers, and handle the maintenance all for free? That sounds like a pipe dream to me.

You never know, but most likely I see it being part of our 15/month normal sub rather than a separate sub or they'll do a 15/month sub for Classic only, plus like 5/month on top of regular ... I can't see them honestly expecting people to pay 15/month for each.

[Obelisk Kai]

Seems like you are asserting opinion as fact now. Are you done?

I'm sorry, didn't you begin your previous post by stating that other games share races across factions and it wouldn't cause damage to WoW? From that I thought we had moved onto opinions. I assumed your arguments had finally run out.

You are aware EVERYTHING you said can still be achieved with races crossing faction. You can be distinct and have the same races, hell you can even have distinct looks and be the same race.

And on top of that, you are still wrong about the "Faction Wall" or "Faction Identity" being a "Core aspect" ... it isn't. The core aspect is conflict, the faction conflict and divide as played a focus in 2 expansions (MoP and soon to be BfA*), it's always been a more often a secondary aspect of the game. It's part of the core aspect of conflict. The game is called World of Warcraft not Alliance vs Horde. Every expansion, even Vanilla, was about conflict against something.

This is nonsense. If you think the faction conflict between the Alliance and Horde isn't the core of the game then you are deluding yourself.

It comes and it goes. Sometimes it is at the forefront, sometimes it fades into the background, but nothing is more important in this game than choosing whether you are Alliance or Horde. It determines what you can play, who you can play with, where you can go safely and whom you fight in the battlegrounds. To even pretend that that is a secondary aspect, and to then talk absolute rubbish about how the factions could still function as distinct entities with races crossing over, tells me you have no respect for the game's most important feature.

If you see the Alliance and Horde as being a straitjacket to break out of, rather than the superstructure the entire game is built on, you are playing the wrong game.

WoW should not be broken to pander to your silly notions that the factions are meaningless.

- - - Updated - - -

Humans, gnomes, draenei, dwarves, all those SI:7 members that are already playable, except for the one goblin (on the alliance at least)

Yeah dude, that's really not the same than the group almost exclusively showcased to be comprised of High Elves (a non playable race)

And it's definitively Blizzard's fault that they gave this non playable faction more screen time than other groups. It wouldn't be the same issue of the SC was instead made of playable alliance races (it could have been humans and gnomes with some helves)

Wow what a stupid conparison. SI:7 is a race now? Get a grip, you are just talking nonsense for the sake of argument.

I made that comment over two weeks ago...does necromancy count within a thread?

Still, the point stands.

The Silver Covenant are a story prop, nothing more. And SI:7 is a story prop, nothing more. You are correct that the idea of SI:7 becoming a new race is ridiculous.

That is of course the point. A story prop is a story prop and is fated to remain a story prop.

Just as the Silver Covenant will never be used as the basis for a High Elf Allied race. That the SC is pretty much all the Alliance High Elves that are left is meaningless in terms of the ultimate fact that they are a prop.

[Darththeo]

I'm sorry, didn't you begin your previous post by stating that other games share races across factions and it wouldn't cause damage to WoW that we had moved onto opinions. I assumed your arguments had finally run out.

That's not actually what I asserted. Any choice will cause "damage to WoW" ... I am stating faction identity doesn't require faction restricted races. Listen, you really need to stop asserting your opponents stance, it's really annoying. Hell, even not allowing High Elves, could freaking damage WoW. You can't make a choice that is going to please everyone.

This is nonsense. If you think the faction conflict between the Alliance and Horde isn't the core of the game then you are deluding yourself.

Derp ... because it isn't. What's the name of the game?

It comes and it goes. Sometimes it is at the forefront, sometimes it fades into the background, but nothing is more important in this game than choosing whether you are Alliance or Horde. It determines what you can play, who you can play with, where you can go safely and whom you fight in the battlegrounds. To even pretend that that is a secondary aspect, and to then talk absolute rubbish about how the factions could still function as distinct entities with races crossing over, tells me you have no respect for the game's most important feature.

This is just total nonsense because the Horde and Alliance aren't just defined by races. You don't "destroy the Horde" by allowing High Elves on the Alliance. It's funny how you claim I don't get the game when you are messing up on something you claim is a core concept!

If you see the Alliance and Horde as being a straitjacket to break out of, rather than the superstructure the entire game is built on, you are playing the wrong game.

Yes, which is why players have ask for Orcs, Tauren and Blood Elves on the Alliance, Dwarves, Worgen and Humans on the Horde ... do you forget the whole theory people had on the Mag'har being Alliance? It was pretty popular. You are simplifying the faction to just a superficial divide ... just what skin the character has. There is more to the faction than race.

WoW should not be broken to pander to your silly notions that the factions are meaningless.

Again, asserting my stance. I never suggested anything of the sort. I stating factions aren't the core ideal ... which it isn't. If the game was called Alliance vs Horde, you'd be correct, but it's called World of Warcraft ... the primary concept is CONFLICT. You are focusing on a subset of that ideal and calling it the "core aspect."

[Obelisk Kai]

That's not actually what I asserted. Any choice will cause "damage to WoW" ... I am stating faction identity doesn't require faction restricted races. Listen, you really need to stop asserting your opponents stance, it's really annoying. Hell, even not allowing High Elves, could freaking damage WoW. You can't make a choice that is going to please everyone.

World of Warcraft factions are based on identifiable races making up the factions with a look and theme of their own. The one time they tried a race not restricted by faction, it didn't work. While you may believe that it wouldn't cause damage to the game, the consequences of your stance are apparent to everyone not content with undermining the lines between the factions so that the option of playing a High Elf is available without having to go Horde.

And you are right, you can't make a choice that pleases everyone. Blizzard has chosen to prioritize the integrity of the factions over the complaints of those for whom the factions mean nothing. That they are unhappy is unfortunate, but damaging the game to please them isn't worth it.

This is the correct choice.

Derp ... because it isn't. What's the name of the game?

And what is the one thing this game always comes back to? What is the first choice you make when creating the character? What were the first two games in the series about? Why did they go with two factions for WoW rather than three or four or six?

Orcs versus Humans.

Alliance versus Horde.

That the complexity of the world allows them to tell other tales, face other villains and have other experiences does not impugn the truth that the struggle of the Alliance and the Horde is the core of the game.

You have demonstrated that the factions are meaningless concepts to you by virtue of your willingness to undermine them. You don't get to demand Blizzard trash the Alliance and the Horde, which is the logical outworking of what you are asking for, because the faction and race combinations seem too constrained to you.

This is just total nonsense because the Horde and Alliance aren't just defined by races. You don't "destroy the Horde" by allowing High Elves on the Alliance. It's funny how you claim I don't get the game when you are messing up on something you claim is a core concept!



Yes, which is why players have ask for Orcs, Tauren and Blood Elves on the Alliance, Dwarves, Worgen and Humans on the Horde ... do you forget the whole theory people had on the Mag'har being Alliance? It was pretty popular. You are simplifying the faction to just a superficial divide ... just what skin the character has. There is more to the faction than race.

There is nothing more to be said. You really don't get the game if you are giving credence to that nonsense.

I suggest a more logical argument for you to pursue will be to scrap the Alliance and the Horde entirely. This idea of allowing any race to play with any faction undermines what the Alliance and Horde are about, leaving them hollowed out husks whose only meaning is whether you like blue or red as a colour.

Again, asserting my stance. I never suggested anything of the sort. I stating factions aren't the core ideal ... which it isn't. If the game was called Alliance vs Horde, you'd be correct, but it's called World of Warcraft ... the primary concept is CONFLICT. You are focusing on a subset of that ideal and calling it the "core aspect."

Take ownership of your stances then. You keep putting out these terrible ideas and then refuse to take ownership of what the consequences of those ideas will be. If I have to fill in the blanks for you because you refuse to, I will do so.

[Arrashi]

This sounds like one hell of a fat guy post though, whew.

Missed, try insulting other random trait.

[Darththeo]

World of Warcraft factions are based on identifiable races making up the factions with a look and theme of their own. The one time they tried a race not restricted by faction, it didn't work. While you may believe that it wouldn't cause damage to the game, the consequences of your stance are apparent to everyone not content with undermining the lines between the factions so that the option of playing a High Elf is available without having to go Horde.

And you are right, you can't make a choice that pleases everyone. Blizzard has chosen to prioritize the integrity of the factions over the complaints of those for whom the factions mean nothing. That they are unhappy is unfortunate, but damaging the game to please them isn't worth it.

This is the correct choice.

None of this is remotely true and doesn't actually deserve a response beyond at this time, factions are built on races that look unique. Even Blizzard hasn't ruled out another neutral race, in fact, they said a race would be neutral if it fits the story .. so your stance here is just false.

And what is the one thing this game always comes back to? What is the first choice you make when creating the character? What were the first two games in the series about? Why did they go with two factions for WoW rather than three or four or six?

Orcs versus Humans.

Alliance versus Horde.

That the complexity of the world allows them to tell other tales, face other villains and have other experiences does not impugn the truth that the struggle of the Alliance and the Horde is the core of the game.

You have demonstrated that the factions are meaningless concepts to you by virtue of your willingness to undermine them. You don't get to demand Blizzard trash the Alliance and the Horde, which is the logical outworking of what you are asking for, because the faction and race combinations seem too constrained to you.

Given the Legion as featured as much as the Alliance vs Horde Conflict ... I can't see how you claim it "always" comes back to faction conflict. I am not saying it's meaningless (seriously, stop asserting my stance) ... I am saying it isn't the primary concept which it isn't. It is part of the primary concept of conflict. You can't go into a concept, pick one piece of that and say here is the core of the game ... that's nonsense.

There is nothing more to be said. You really don't get the game if you are giving credence to that nonsense.

I suggest a more logical argument for you to pursue will be to scrap the Alliance and the Horde entirely. This idea of allowing any race to play with any faction undermines what the Alliance and Horde are about, leaving them hollowed out husks whose only meaning is whether you like blue or red as a colour.

Good job, you just proved you only care about superficial appearance of the Alliance and Horde rather than you know what the **** they actually stand for. Worse, you project that trait onto me. Look at the Nightborne and Void Elf recruitment quests for proof you're wrong ... those quests show the ideals of the factions at hand. It's you who are arguing for a meaningless distinction but think I am ... that's rich.

To me, the factions are about ideals not races ... races are just a current tool to express the ideal. They could find other ways ... if you can only tell Alliance from Horde by race, it's you who see them as red and blue. Unfortunately, those ideals have been watered down over the past expansions ... but they can always reverse that.

Take ownership of your stances then. You keep putting out these terrible ideas and then refuse to take ownership of what the consequences of those ideas will be. If I have to fill in the blanks for you because you refuse to, I will do so.

Because what you are saying isn't my stance? Why should I own your strawman? You literally have admitted you'll strawman me rather than take the mature approach and ask the question if you feel there is a blank ... good job. Way to show your character.

You have admitted you don't care for an honest debate or discussion or anything. I don't even need to post because apparently you'll just make up what I have to say.

[Shinkishi]

Missed, try insulting other random trait.

Hmm. Balding?

[Arrashi]

Hmm. Balding?

Nope. Try again. You can scratch all health related issues.

[Shinkishi]

Nope. Try again. You can scratch all health related issues.

Gotta be honest, I'm pretty sure I got it right with the first one, big guy. Your post just had that kind of quality to it, you know?