Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[KrakHed]

Anyhow, I think I'm going to avoid a wall of text and simplify every point I've made before to its most basic level. High Elves are different from Blood Elves in one major way, one that ties into every potential development path and even explains their low population.

They're Alliance. They're not only Alliance, but they're so Alliance that they're more loyal to it than Silvermoon. They cared more about what they wanted their people to be than what they were, and rejected their people in the end. A High Elf isn't particularly devoted to their culture or their people, it's their pride in other standards that sets them apart. And High Elves continue their grudge even after the Blood Elves gave up the practices they initially disagreed with, and the Blood Elves are perfectly willing to take them back.

When it comes down to it, the remaining Elves who still call themselves "High" Elves, rejecting the name change meant to honor the fallen, are pretty much more Alliance than Elf these days.

[Shinkishi]

Anyhow, I think I'm going to avoid a wall of text and simplify every point I've made before to its most basic level. High Elves are different from Blood Elves in one major way, one that ties into every potential development path and even explains their low population.

They're Alliance. They're not only Alliance, but they're so Alliance that they're more loyal to it than Silvermoon. They cared more about what they wanted their people to be than what they were, and rejected their people in the end. A High Elf isn't particularly devoted to their culture or their people, it's their pride in other standards that sets them apart. And High Elves continue their grudge even after the Blood Elves gave up the practices they initially disagreed with, and the Blood Elves are perfectly willing to take them back.

When it comes down to it, the remaining Elves who still call themselves "High" Elves, rejecting the name change meant to honor the fallen, are pretty much more Alliance than Elf these days.

Yeah, that's pretty reasonable. I think you see it with more of a negative slant than there needs to be, but I agree that the high elves of the Alliance aren't the high elves of Silvermoon any longer and don't really carry that legacy. That belongs to the blood elves.

Aka "When they finally cave to our demands".

Isn't this what those children who lie on the floor of toystore, screaming and hyperventilating are thinking ?

This sounds like one hell of a fat guy post though, whew.

[FlubberPuddy]

Damn I go away to take my final and there's 10+ pages of back and forth.

Anyways I think it's interesting what some people insinuate in this thread, and doesn't have to relate to High Elves specifically:

That there will never be another neutral race added to the game. <- Personally probably won't see it happen in BfA but the Tortollan look like a future candidate for that spot in some future timeline. BfA is obviously turning into the "no sharing toys please" expansion.

That Blood Elves are the pillar that binds the Horde together <- Damn this one is a real jump, Blood Elves that important to the Horde huh? Where were they in the BfA cinematic that was made to exude faction pride? Oh yeah nowhere to be found because they're not iconic to Horde.

No more Elves will ever be added to the game ever again <- What's funny about this is I think some people were saying even before Nightborne and Void Elf came about, literally the exact same diatribe of "enough elves in the game already! There's two of em more than any other!" Then plop the NB and VE swirled into existence.

Some funny observations, I wonder how well these will hold in a couple more expansions or so.

EDIT: One more thing - Blood Elves should eventually get Blue Eyes and/or High Elves will get Golden Eyes later <-- Errr no, lol. The fact they changed the internal file naming for High Elves to "High Elves" so that they don't populate with Golden Eyes shows even more that the skin tones and blue eye colors given to High Elves are specifically for them (I saw someone mention something about how HE players would feel if BE got those options).

So yet again, the actual in-game development of High Elves and Blood Elves continues to be separate despite Ion stating what he did. Another example of the game additions go against what Ion states, yet of course it's different this time for High Elves right everyone? Clearly Ion is this time 100% factual?

[KrakHed]

Yeah, that's pretty reasonable. I think you see it with more of a negative slant than there needs to be, but I agree that the high elves of the Alliance aren't the high elves of Silvermoon any longer and don't really carry that legacy. That belongs to the blood elves.

I'm putting it with a fairly neutral slant. I've no intent of portraying them as simply better than the Blood Elves, so the slant goes whichever way you choose to take it.

It's also why I think Alleria's going to be forced to realize that taking Silvermoon back for the Alliance has already become a meaningless dream. Silvermoon is for Silvermoon and the Elves, and this is reflected in how well her talk with Lor'themar goes. Lor'themar hoped she had come to visit as a fellow Elf, and she instead came as a representative of the Alliance. That Elf-first attitude is probably part of what pleased the Nightborne as well.

High Elves aren't like that. They're human-chasing weirdos. There's not the same pride in their people and culture. And so I wonder just how many of the humans would put the Alliance ahead of Stormwind? How many Dwarves?

Still, that's just a jumping off point. Not a true racial identity in itself quite yet.

[Shinkishi]

I'm putting it with a fairly neutral slant. I've no intent of portraying them as simply better than the Blood Elves, so the slant goes whichever way you choose to take it.

It's also why I think Alleria's going to be forced to realize that taking Silvermoon back for the Alliance has already become a meaningless dream. Silvermoon is for Silvermoon and the Elves, and this is reflected in how well her talk with Lor'themar goes. Lor'themar hoped she had come to visit as a fellow Elf, and she instead came as a representative of the Alliance. That Elf-first attitude is probably part of what pleased the Nightborne as well.

High Elves aren't like that. They're human-chasing weirdos. There's not the same pride in their people and culture. And so I wonder just how many of the humans would put the Alliance ahead of Stormwind? How many Dwarves?

Still, that's just a jumping off point. Not a true racial identity in itself quite yet.

I'm not saying they're better or that you need to mince your words or something like that. I'm probably not going to convince you, but your posts concerning the split don't come off as neutral at all, just saying. It's okay to prefer one thing over the other.

[Deleted]

Tortollan look like a future candidate

I would say rather Mogu, Naga, and Ethereals - they are kind of big races, with strong tendencies to maintain independence. In example of Zandalari bringing such race to one faction already felt a little bit forced.

Blood Elves that important to the Horde huh?

Unfortunately I have to admit - they are. When it comes to number of players.

In some way Nightborne were probably a first try to match their score. I'm afraid, that they may not be so successful. Perhaps not enough story and character followed their pure Drow aesthetics, yet. Perhaps they have been redeemed and simplified too quickly, and too hasty even for WoW. And perhaps I'm wrong here, or it's to early to evaluate.

Vampires seem to be second try.

[Andromedes]

"just tweak the model" -high elf zealots.

so you want blizzard to recton lore to fit your wants?

No, just slightly tweak body, different customization options, different posture.. That isnt retcon, just artistic freedom. Just like Kul Tirans are somehow different from other humans, or those datamined thin humans, who are still humans, but have different posture and body shape. And no ''3000 years'' evolution played part, because we saw normal looking kul tirans, who arent obese giants.

[Ithekro]

Something I was thinking about today. About just how many people are needed to be a "playable race" by how Blizzard tells its stories. With the introduction of the Allied Race system, a race no longer needs a Starting Zone populated by a lot of its kin. With the storyline of the Class Order Halls, there is actually only one hero/adventurer of each class in canon. Not even one of each spec or gender, just one each. So If High Elves can be say six to eight classes in this game, that is the exact number of people the game requires in order for a race to be playable. Just up to eight free random adventurers, one for each class. And that's assuming that the Order Hall leader for all of the classes they can play happens to be a High Elf (which is unlikely in canon for any one race given how the Order Halls are designed). That is not a lot of people needed to make a race "playable" within the lore/plot context of the World of Warcraft. Sure they will be more than that for the larger species to fill out the 20 man to 40 man raids, but to be playable in canon? Just as many people as you have classes to play.

[KrakHed]

I'm not saying they're better or that you need to mince your words or something like that. I'm probably not going to convince you, but your posts concerning the split don't come off as neutral at all, just saying. It's okay to prefer one thing over the other.

I say it's fairly neutral. It's up to you to decide how to take it. I don't have the highest opinion of any of the elves, but I'm not blind to what people want and expect from them. I can recognize the issues Blizzard would see with the matter, so it poses an interesting creative problem for me.

I'm not a High Elf fan, but I'm not blind to what people generally want from them. I haven't been a Blood Elf fan in years, and what I wanted from them has long been irrelevant, but their fans are already here and speaking for themselves. I'm not a Night Elf fan either, but I've seen their irritation with their lore direction.

That last group is the major issue with the dominant High Elf concept in these threads. Night Elf fans generally call dibs on Wild/Savage Elf themes. I've seen their thoughts on High Elf fans, and they're irritated by what they perceive as an effort to take what should be theirs. And hardcore Night Elf fans are touchy about losing any fragment of identity. They already feel like Night Elves have been neutered to appeal to fans of classic elves.

Bitterness and resentment elicits a certain sympathy from me, and this all complicates the issue. Because when it comes down to it, Night Elves are Wild Elves with tattoos, various wilderness adornments, heavy focus on archers, and yada, yada, yada. Night Elf fans are already losing their capital city and being forced to take refuge in Stormwind.

If I was working at Blizzard and going to design Wild Elf assets for anyone, I'd hand them all over to the Kaldorei to keep them happy. They need someone to pander to the kind of things they want one of these days. As they are now, Night Elves are probably closer to what High Elf fans want High Elves to be than what Night Elf fans actually think Night Elves should be.

On the other hand, the Blood Elves are rudely capitalizing on the whole Light Elf themes and have traded off a fair amount of the edge they once had. This fucks up what could have been an easy jumping off point for developing tangible differences. It's not the direction I'd have chosen for Blood Elves. But I wouldn't have killed off Kael'thas either.

Or basically, WoW suffers from too many Elves, too many losing what made them special, to the point where there's no adequate room for new Elf types unless we push them far outside the norm. This problem would be easier to solve if we fixed Night Elves first.

[Shinkishi]

I say it's fairly neutral. It's up to you to decide how to take it. I don't have the highest opinion of any of the elves, but I'm not blind to what people want and expect from them. I can recognize the issues Blizzard would see with the matter, so it poses an interesting creative problem for me.

I'm not a High Elf fan, but I'm not blind to what people generally want from them. I haven't been a Blood Elf fan in years, and what I wanted from them has long been irrelevant, but their fans are already here and speaking for themselves. I'm not a Night Elf fan either, but I've seen their irritation with their lore direction.

That last group is the major issue with the dominant High Elf concept in these threads. Night Elf fans generally call dibs on Wild/Savage Elf themes. I've seen their thoughts on High Elf fans, and they're irritated by what they perceive as an effort to take what should be theirs. And hardcore Night Elf fans are touchy about losing any fragment of identity. They already feel like Night Elves have been neutered to appeal to fans of classic elves.

Bitterness and resentment elicits a certain sympathy from me, and this all complicates the issue. Because when it comes down to it, Night Elves are Wild Elves with tattoos, various wilderness adornments, heavy focus on archers, and yada, yada, yada. Night Elf fans are already losing their capital city and being forced to take refuge in Stormwind.

If I was working at Blizzard and going to design Wild Elf assets for anyone, I'd hand them all over to the Kaldorei to keep them happy. They need someone to pander to the kind of things they want one of these days. As they are now, Night Elves are probably closer to what High Elf fans want High Elves to be than what Night Elf fans actually think Night Elves should be.

On the other hand, the Blood Elves are rudely capitalizing on the whole Light Elf themes and have traded off a fair amount of the edge they once had. This fucks up what could have been an easy jumping off point for developing tangible differences. It's not the direction I'd have chosen for Blood Elves. But I wouldn't have killed off Kael'thas either.

Or basically, WoW suffers from too many Elves, too many losing what made them special, to the point where there's no adequate room for new Elf types unless we push them far outside the norm. This problem would be easier to solve if we fixed Night Elves first.

Decent ideas about the elves all around, not much to add to that. I'm not that concerned with elves all that much, either. Like I said, we'll just disagree on how neutral your previous posts sounded. I don't think I took it in any particular way, your presentation is what makes it look entirely negative for the high elves and positive for the blood elves, whatever your intentions were.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I assume that's because San'layn are more vampire than elf. Elf and vampire themes overlap. They're high class, fancy, magical, immortal, beautiful, proud, often have pointy ears, and so on. But vampires do it all in a distinctly vampire way, so it kind of erases the elf identity. Their twist places them in an extremely different niche where they won't step on any toes.

Of course, it'd be annoying to have yet another Horde elf, but they could focus on the monstrous side more than the elf. That's the selling point of the San'layn.

With High Elves, I'm not seeing a strong core identity built in that would be able to survive lazy writers. A vampire can't just be written as a generic elf without personality or identity, you can't just write them without thought to the backstory that separates them from any random D&D inspired basic elf.

High Elves are different. I feel that if High Elves are not marked by their history, Blizzard's lazier writers will forget it. Thus will begin an erosion of any identity constructed for them, and they'll eventually wind up essentially indistinguishable from Blood Elves or the already watered-down Night Elves.

So I'm mostly looking around this thread for an idea that's idiot-proof. That distinctly reflects and builds upon Blizzard's High Elves and what separates them from the other Elves in the setting.

If you get down to it, Modern High Elves could be easily defined as a group of immigrants that broke of from their nation politically, who's culture now is being hybridized by their host's culture.

That would be a pretty unique take on elves as an immigrant story, which is basically a lot of their context by being thalassian elves on the alliance. Cultural syncretism, culture clash, reforging of tradition, there's a LOT blizzard could draw inspiration from.

IMO this approach would would for either High Elves or Half Elves, but regardless, there is already a whole set up to tell this story. Dalaran is already a multicultural city where we can see the hybridization of human and elven culture and its people, where the Silver Covenant was formed, who was called out by Elisande as "elves that diluted their bloodline with lesser races." There's so much potential for High Elven lore to actually be about that eroded identity.

I'd like High Elves to be playable, but a big reason of that is because I see a lot of potential on the place they have occupied on the alliance since WarII, there's so much unique history to them as a people in terms of experience that separates them from Blood Elves and Void Elves, an experience that could lead them to an interesting place.

I have to admit that I see more potential on the legacy of their heritage rather than who they are "now," so while I'd really like HE to be playable, I think that Half Elves actually would be the most interesting result of High Elf lore.

- - - Updated - - -

SI:7 have had story moments in multiple expansions and nobody says they should be the next allied race.

It's a tool. Nothing more than a prop. Blizzard had a story to tell and it is not their fault people saw more in the SC than was ever intended.

Humans, gnomes, draenei, dwarves, all those SI:7 members that are already playable, except for the one goblin (on the alliance at least)

Yeah dude, that's really not the same than the group almost exclusively showcased to be comprised of High Elves (a non playable race)

And it's definitively Blizzard's fault that they gave this non playable faction more screen time than other groups. It wouldn't be the same issue of the SC was instead made of playable alliance races (it could have been humans and gnomes with some helves)

[melzas]

SI:7 have had story moments in multiple expansions and nobody says they should be the next allied race.

It's a tool. Nothing more than a prop. Blizzard had a story to tell and it is not their fault people saw more in the SC than was ever intended.

Wow what a stupid conparison. SI:7 is a race now? Get a grip, you are just talking nonsense for the sake of argument.

[Traveler Voltin]

So with the new before the storm preview out.
I suggest you high elf fans shut up.
calia is killed off

[Shinkishi]

So with the new before the storm preview out.
I suggest you high elf fans shut up.
calia is killed off

What does that have to do with high elves?

[Traveler Voltin]

What does that have to do with high elves?

Annoying blizzard might get the remaining high elves killed off.
Common sense.

[Shinkishi]

Annoying blizzard might get the remaining high elves killed off.
Common sense.

Still not following. What does she have to do with high elves? You know she's human, right?

[Ithekro]

What does that have to do with the price of Arcwine in Silvermoon (excellent vintage by the way, has a Netherlord fel musk to the arcane berries flavor)?

I mean, sure that could come to be a plot point in the novel and which point we would get some lore closure, and that's fine. As long as Blizzard does something with the dangling High Elf threads instead of repeatedly holding them out there and then going "oh no you play that, got join the Horde, they have something that is essentially that".

[serendipity11]

I would say rather Mogu, Naga, and Ethereals - they are kind of big races, with strong tendencies to maintain independence. In example of Zandalari bringing such race to one faction already felt a little bit forced.


Unfortunately I have to admit - they are. When it comes to number of players.

In some way Nightborne were probably a first try to match their score. I'm afraid, that they may not be so successful. Perhaps not enough story and character followed their pure Drow aesthetics, yet. Perhaps they have been redeemed and simplified too quickly, and too hasty even for WoW. And perhaps I'm wrong here, or it's to early to evaluate.

Vampires seem to be second try.

I like Nightborne a lot. They were never meant to be drow any more than night elves were. The story is thestory. When it was done they weren't intended to be playable. That's clear with the npc models versus player models.

Also people keep bringing up vampires, vampyr, or San'layn but is there any source to this? Or is it pure conjecture?

The only evidence are the reminent San'layn showing up in Zandalar which hardly indicates a playable race. Vulpera are infinitely more likely and even they haven't been confirmed.

[BTHSE]

So with the new before the storm preview out.
I suggest you high elf fans shut up.
calia is killed off

Annoying blizzard might get the remaining high elves killed off.
Common sense.

Did.. did you think that Calia was Veressa for a hot minute there..? That's the only way I can make sense of what you're saying. Calia is the last remaining heir to the throne of Lordaron, she's got nothing to do with High Elves.

[serendipity11]

Would half elves be an acceptable alternative?

They'd use a heavily modified human skeleton to give them a more elven appearance with a human build. Their ears wouldn't by quite as exaggerated. It's not unique in fantasy but it is unique in WoW. They're uncommon but if void elves are playable I don't see why not tbh. They're distinct from blood elves and high elves. Unlike high elves they can't exist in the horde as blood elves. People keep bringing up how modern High elves, and Human cultures intermingle. That's not the only thing that intermingle. I think a group of half elves becoming playable would be cool.

- - - Updated - - -

So with the new before the storm preview out.
I suggest you high elf fans shut up.
calia is killed off

Does she get raised as an undead and turned into Sylvanas' concubine?