Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Enkrypt]

Well its like what I, and others have said time and time again. What the we know as HE are a reactionary group, they are pretty much the shadow of the BE.

Every single time we have BE doing any thing. (Other than the reliquary their mirror is the explores league, and in WOD we had the Draenei.)

There is HE group (mostly the Silver Covenent) who opposes them for one reason or another. Every single HE story development is just part of the BE story.

I asked some one in this thread to name times we see the Silver Covenent with out there being the Sunrevers or Farstriders nearby. I NEVER got an answer.

The Void elves could easily become the new faction mirror.

The Void Elves are the new mirror. They are the answer to the decade of begging and pleading these people have been doing, but since they turn their noses up at them, they feel Blizzard owes them more.

I have never seen a more humiliating case of a group of people not being able to take no for an answer. Constant reading between the lines and fictional scenarios meant to justify an end that is, in all likelihood, never going to happen. Ion made it evident that as long as the Blood Elves are a Horde faction, Blizzard has no intention of giving the Alliance a version of it outside of Void Elves. He made that quite clear.

Blizzard does not owe them anything. And it's sad that they are too ingrateful to graciously accept what compromise was given to them, or play Horde to play the race they are so adamantly in pursuit of. To me this just screams the behavior of a small, spoiled child. They have two options before them, yet they continue to demand a third.

[Traveler Voltin]

And that would be fine. It would end the issue. One way or the other.

they really only have 2 options.
Kill them off or split the high elves up(some join VE and some Join BE)
the taunting is getting annoying.

[Melsiren]

they really only have 2 options.
Kill them off or split the high elves up(some join VE and some Join BE)
the taunting is getting annoying.

The "HE" story is really at a point where it needs closure. The VE story is future for Thalassian elves on the Alliance.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I made that comment over two weeks ago...does necromancy count within a thread?

Still, the point stands.

The Silver Covenant are a story prop, nothing more. And SI:7 is a story prop, nothing more. You are correct that the idea of SI:7 becoming a new race is ridiculous.

That is of course the point. A story prop is a story prop and is fated to remain a story prop.

Just as the Silver Covenant will never be used as the basis for a High Elf Allied race. That the SC is pretty much all the Alliance High Elves that are left is meaningless in terms of the ultimate fact that they are a prop.

Hadn't been around for a while and didn't check the date, but since you have replied I guess you don't mind.

No, the point does not stand. Your SI:7 comparison is not accurate to the context.

There's no other faction allied to either horde or alliance, comprised of a non playable race, who has the same level of exposure than the Silver Covenant High Elves.

And if you make a once intended story prop keep showing up, you are giving it more importance than a prop should have, and that has been Blizzard's fault, not the audience. If you continue to use an element as part of world building, you are obviously weaving that element into the narrative, to the point you draw attention to it and people will ask about that. It's pretty evident High Elves haven't been used as a "one off", you can't blame a part of the audience for noticing they are a recurring presence and providing engagement, that's how storytelling works, that's how we become invested on plot elements/characters as an audience. It might be a plot element you personally dislike, but others have evidently have felt differently.

I cannot think of any other group that has been given the same level of exposure across multiple expansions. That is Blizzard's fault.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

The "HE" story is really at a point where it needs closure. The VE story is future for Thalassian elves on the Alliance.

So let's have that then, why aren't we having any resolution? Anyone really knows? Regardless of anyone's personal wishes for High Elves on the alliance, they are definitely a group that exists -unless you don't "believe" in high elves at which point no one can do anything about- a group that people either want playable or gone, and regardless of the outcome, the better path is just simply to give them resolution, any resolution.

You can't just ignore them but keep arguing against people that don't, neither you can keep saying how much sense they make and they should be added when the devs have no intention of that. But we ALL should be on board with the High Elves on the alliance finding a resolution, a conclusion, regardless of what "side" it favors.

[Gurluas]

There's a lot of non-playable groups though.

The Silverpine Furbolg?
The Revantusk?
The Aerie Peak Wildhammers?
The Taunka?
The Jinyu?
The Hozen?

The only difference between High elves and those is that there is a big demand for playable High elves that has been there since 2007 and in some cases earlier.

Recently I've been playing Everquest 2 and I really lament some of those features not being in Wow.
It's so much more RP friendly when you can choose your alignment, and if you're an evil race, you can personally become good and betray your faction.

Learning other languages is also a neat thing. The technology has been there since Vanilla but it's literally never been used, the closest is the Mage spell allowing you to understand allied faction languages but still not the same.

If betrayal was in, I'd make a Blood elf, betray the Horde, get exiled, prove myself to the Alliance, and voila, I'd take up the name High elf.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

The Void Elves are the new mirror. They are the answer to the decade of begging and pleading these people have been doing, but since they turn their noses up at them, they feel Blizzard owes them more.

I have never seen a more humiliating case of a group of people not being able to take no for an answer. Constant reading between the lines and fictional scenarios meant to justify an end that is, in all likelihood, never going to happen. Ion made it evident that as long as the Blood Elves are a Horde faction, Blizzard has no intention of giving the Alliance a version of it outside of Void Elves. He made that quite clear.

Blizzard does not owe them anything. And it's sad that they are too ingrateful to graciously accept what compromise was given to them, or play Horde to play the race they are so adamantly in pursuit of. To me this just screams the behavior of a small, spoiled child. They have two options before them, yet they continue to demand a third.

This is so dramatic. Look, people that wanted High Elves just aren't gonna be happy with Velves by the simple reason they aren't the outcome they were expecting, nor even an outcome that satisfies the reasons why people wanted High Elves. Void Elves aren't an answer for people that wanted High Elves on the alliance, they are an answer for people that wanted to be a thalassian elf on the alliance.

Yes, high elves aren't going to be a thing, and I too wish that people accepted that, but that's not up to me, nor is it up to you, but the fact that people like you keep saying that people that wanted high elves should be "grateful" for Void Elves as a compromise seem that will never understand why people wanted High Elves on the first place, and would rather paint them as "spoiled children" because that's a far cleaner narrative, to not accept any validity on any argument that people made for High Elves.

And that certainly is a very childish thing.

- - - Updated - - -

There's a lot of non-playable groups though.

The Silverpine Furbolg?
The Revantusk?
The Aerie Peak Wildhammers?
The Taunka?
The Jinyu?
The Hozen?

The only difference between High elves and those is that there is a big demand for playable High elves that has been there since 2007 and in some cases earlier.

Recently I've been playing Everquest 2 and I really lament some of those features not being in Wow.
It's so much more RP friendly when you can choose your alignment, and if you're an evil race, you can personally become good and betray your faction.

Learning other languages is also a neat thing. The technology has been there since Vanilla but it's literally never been used, the closest is the Mage spell allowing you to understand allied faction languages but still not the same.

If betrayal was in, I'd make a Blood elf, betray the Horde, get exiled, prove myself to the Alliance, and voila, I'd take up the name High elf.

There's also the difference that all of those groups have been relevant for 1 appareance, 2 in the case of the Cata Revamp at most.

Silver Covenant High Elves have been a presence for 4 expansions, across multiple conflicts, from 2008 to 2017, almost a decade. And a lot of anti High Elf people try to diminish this fact. It's not about "HE should be playable," but people have to understand this is on Blizzard first and foremost, you don't just crap on Blizzard when you personally agree on the reason.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

I agree that blizzard has been stringing you along, for many years now.

Although they do it with many races like Hozen/Jinyu it seems especially malicious and drawn-out with HE.

This is why I encourage you not to put stock in hope and optimism in getting your way, only when they decide to do it will it happen.

Until then they are milking your subscription monies while you pray for rain.

[ThatBloodElfEnjoyer]

Arcanist Ilira is now a Blood Elf and was replaced Alliance side by High Sorceress Marala in the warfronts.

Wait, so they took an Alliance High Elf NPC and literally made her a Horde Blood Elf instead? Nice change if so.

[FlubberPuddy]

I agree that blizzard has been stringing you along, for many years now.

Although they do it with many races like Hozen/Jinyu it seems especially malicious and drawn-out with HE.

This is why I encourage you not to put stock in hope and optimism in getting your way, only when they decide to do it will it happen.

Until then they are milking your subscription monies while you pray for rain.

What continuation of story have the Jinyu/Hozen received since Mists? People are talking about "Silver Covenant are a prop" well a prop doesn't continue having story progress right? A prop would be something like "oh they placed some hozen here" but nothing exactly comes from it.

I agree with @MyWholeLifeIsThunder in that it isn't the player's but Blizzard's fault for continuing to progress the Silver Covenant story if they were meant to be a one-off thing or a prop. And I agree that any kind of resolution for them should happen so that they aren't this anamoly that they currently are, it's actually very strange and I'm not sure anyone but Blizzard would be able to answer why, after all this time, have the Silver Covenant and majority of Alliance High Elves not had a resolution to their fate, but instead continue to get some moments of story progression.

Although I can't see some of the proposals people have thought up:

1) All joining the VE - High Elves separated from BE due to using chaotic fel magics, they aren't going to join another group of their brethren doing essentially the same thing.

2) They end up joining back up with BE - The narrative has continually spinned High Elves and Blood Elves as hating each other. Doesn't matter that there's one or 2 characters on each side who want them to be back together again, the majority of each group despises the other.

The "cleanest" albeit boring solution would be killing them off, that for sure gives resolution and falls in line much better than the other 2 proposals because those are completely out of character to happen to High Elves if it did.

If Blizzard are trying to play the long con though then we'll probably have some form of Alliance High Elves, either through Half-Elves (who would carry the legacy of all High Elves that were part of the Alliance from the HE/BE split) or they'll be transformed to become something else with a more unique visual aesthetic, just like how Void Elves are transformed Blood Elves.

But before people jump on me, here's the in-game description for when you create a Void Elf:

Seeking to harness the corruptive magic of the Void, these outcast elves endured an unexpected transformation. They are determined to master their newfound powers and resist the whispers eager to lure them into madness.

Emphasis on 'unexpected transformation' means currently until Blizzard clarifies it, there aren't any incoming Void Elves to bolster their number and the speculation that High Elves are turning into them, is just that for now: speculation. Since the character description wouldn't make sense if they willingly go through the transformation.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Void_elf_(playable)

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

What continuation of story have the Jinyu/Hozen received since Mists? People are talking about "Silver Covenant are a prop" well a prop doesn't continue having story progress right? A prop would be something like "oh they placed some hozen here" but nothing exactly comes from it.

I agree with @MyWholeLifeIsThunder in that it isn't the player's but Blizzard's fault for continuing to progress the Silver Covenant story if they were meant to be a one-off thing or a prop. And I agree that any kind of resolution for them should happen so that they aren't this anamoly that they currently are, it's actually very strange and I'm not sure anyone but Blizzard would be able to answer why, after all this time, have the Silver Covenant and majority of Alliance High Elves not had a resolution to their fate, but instead continue to get some moments of story progression.

Although I can't see some of the proposals people have thought up:

1) All joining the VE - High Elves separated from BE due to using chaotic fel magics, they aren't going to join another group of their brethren doing essentially the same thing.

2) They end up joining back up with BE - The narrative has continually spinned High Elves and Blood Elves as hating each other. Doesn't matter that there's one or 2 characters on each side who want them to be back together again, the majority of each group despises the other.

The "cleanest" albeit boring solution would be killing them off, that for sure gives resolution and falls in line much better than the other 2 proposals because those are completely out of character to happen to High Elves if it did.

If Blizzard are trying to play the long con though then we'll probably have some form of Alliance High Elves, either through Half-Elves (who would carry the legacy of all High Elves that were part of the Alliance from the HE/BE split) or they'll be transformed to become something else with a more unique visual aesthetic, just like how Void Elves are transformed Blood Elves.

But before people jump on me, here's the in-game description for when you create a Void Elf:

Emphasis on 'unexpected transformation' means currently until Blizzard clarifies it, there aren't any incoming Void Elves to bolster their number and the speculation that High Elves are turning into them, is just that for now: speculation. Since the character description wouldn't make sense if they willingly go through the transformation.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Void_elf_(playable)

How is HE head canon superior to Hozen head canon?

If I create a 300 page Hozen allied race thread with photoshop mockups, endless debate, and a private discord would that be sufficient?

[FlubberPuddy]

Players can talk to Magister Umbric to understand the role of the Void Elves. Since they are essentially a brand-new Allied Race without much of a backstory, it's good to see them having a presence and continuing story in Battle for Azeroth.

What is your role in this campaign, magister?

"As a magister, my duty has always been to Silvermoon and its people. When the mad Arthas devastated our lands, I knew we must harness every power available to ensure our survival.

Prince Kael'thas proposed one way. I sought out another."

So you sought the power of shadow?

"My followers and I felt no loyalty to the Horde. When Grand Magister Rommath forbade our Void research, we did not hesitate to break away and follow our own path.

But hubris got the best of me. I was certain I could master any force we encountered.

I was so wrong..."

The Void nearly claimed you?

"I led us right into the ethereals' trap. If not for Alleria Windrunner's intervention, we would have been lost.

As it was, the shadow energies transformed us... and opened our minds to the whispers of the Void. Without Alleria's guidance, we would have fallen into madness.

She has helped us quiet our minds. Dampen the whispers. It is a constant struggle."

Now you fight for the Alliance.

"We do not stand with the Alliance out of convenience. Nor is it a mere gesture of thanks to Alleria.

Our ordeal has taught us the importance of great powers being in the right hands. We could not allow the Horde to know the things we know, or to use us as a weapon in their schemes.

We fight for the Alliance because we believe in its values. And one day, I pray we will bring all of Silvermoon back into the fold."

How fare you, Magister Umbric?

"I struggle to fetter the whispers, same as you. Thankfully, Alleria Windrunner continues to offer us her guidance.

Without her intervention... well, I fear we would have all been lost.

And though I was reluctant to treat with him at first, I have learned much from the Locus-Walker. Just bear in mind that anything he offers is bound to serve his own goals in some way."

Do you believe we have earned the trust of the Alliance?

"So long as Silvermoon stands with the Horde, there will always be those who mistrust us.

But the Alliance is where our people belong. I am more certain of that now than ever before.

Stay the course, $n. Show our comrades in the Alliance that we fight for the same cause.

One day the Horde's grip on our land will be broken, and the children of Quel'Thalas will stand united once more.

I know it."

http://www.wowhead.com/news=284450/b...magic-spoilers

Very interesting. It's brought up again about uniting Silvermoon back into the Alliance. Also interesting that Umbric says the Alliance is where "our people belong".

I think it's interesting there's still this dynamic going on of whether the Thalassian Elves are on the side they "should be," sets up an interesting storyline.

And again the way he is speaking shows that it was still his original group that were the only ones who became Void Elves.

- - - Updated - - -

How is HE head canon superior to Hozen head canon?

If I create a 300 page Hozen allied race thread with photoshop mockups, endless debate, and a private discord would that be sufficient?

I'm asking for examples similar to what people have for High Elves right now. Will you provide some? People don't have to create fan-fic to show that the Silver Covenant as a group have consistently progressed their story alongside the Alliance.

All I ask is if you're comparing it to Jinyu/Hozen that you bring up similar examples. Do we have a group of Hozen or Jinyu that get their story progression forward from Mists with npc lines/scenarios where we see them acting in the manner similar to the Silver Covenant?

Or are they actual "props" of npcs just plopped here and there but contain no story propelling them forwards from the expansion in which they were featured?

If the comparison is to be apt then you should be able to provide that proof using what exists in the game already, that's what High Elf fans are able to do and it requires no mockups, endless debate, nor a discord.

Just usage of what already exists within the game as is right now.

[Kasai511]

/support even though I'm horde

[Enkrypt]

This is so dramatic. Look, people that wanted High Elves just aren't gonna be happy with Velves by the simple reason they aren't the outcome they were expecting, nor even an outcome that satisfies the reasons why people wanted High Elves. Void Elves aren't an answer for people that wanted High Elves on the alliance, they are an answer for people that wanted to be a thalassian elf on the alliance.

Yes, high elves aren't going to be a thing, and I too wish that people accepted that, but that's not up to me, nor is it up to you, but the fact that people that you keep saying that people that wanted high elves should be "grateful" for Void Elves as a compromise seem that will just never understand why people wanted High Elves on the first place, and rather paint them as "spoiled children" because that's a far cleaner narrative, to not accept any validity on any argument that people made for High Elves.

And that certainly is a very childish thing.

Nah.

I completely understand why they wanted them. "Muh original Warcraft race..." Well, too bad, that changed. The story changed. They're Horde now. The part not being understood is why they aren't getting them. Apparently it's fucking rocket science for some.

You don't always get what you want. Blizzard doesn't seem to care if they're happy or not. Take what you were given, play the game, or shut up about it. It's a pretty mature concept that comes with age, but at some point you realize, just because you want it a certain way doesn't guarantee you'll get it that way. And this situation resonates that lesson a hundred fold.

Your entire post hinged on, "That's not what they asked for." Obviously, Blizzard doesn't care to give them exactly what they asked for. And I have zero doubt in my mind that at one of those developer tables, it was said:

"Well, since we aren't giving them High Elves, let's give them something close to it."

And thus Void Elves were born. These children were given a flavor that wasn't their favorite, and they're pitching a fit because of that. What do I call that? A good business model. They didn't want to take the Blood Elves or even copy them, in likeness, away from the Horde. They had the foresight to know that would upset the faction that already has them as an established race.

In the end, it's a matter of not biting one hand to feed the other. Whether I sided with these people or not, I can see that clear as day. It's not childish to see things that way. Doesn't seem you know the behavior of a child, apparently.

[Shinkishi]

Just got off the horn with my old pal Ion, folks. He said the elves are coming if everyone is mature about it.

[KrakHed]

If you get down to it, Modern High Elves could be easily defined as a group of immigrants that broke of from their nation politically, who's culture now is being hybridized by their host's culture.

That would be a pretty unique take on elves as an immigrant story, which is basically a lot of their context by being thalassian elves on the alliance. Cultural syncretism, culture clash, reforging of tradition, there's a LOT blizzard could draw inspiration from.

IMO this approach would would for either High Elves or Half Elves, but regardless, there is already a whole set up to tell this story. Dalaran is already a multicultural city where we can see the hybridization of human and elven culture and its people, where the Silver Covenant was formed, who was called out by Elisande as "elves that diluted their bloodline with lesser races." There's so much potential for High Elven lore to actually be about that eroded identity.

I'd like High Elves to be playable, but a big reason of that is because I see a lot of potential on the place they have occupied on the alliance since WarII, there's so much unique history to them as a people in terms of experience that separates them from Blood Elves and Void Elves, an experience that could lead them to an interesting place.

I have to admit that I see more potential on the legacy of their heritage rather than who they are "now," so while I'd really like HE to be playable, I think that Half Elves actually would be the most interesting result of High Elf lore.

This is almost entirely what I was getting at. Who the High Elves are "now" isn't something that will survive, but what's left of them could create something new. Likely hybridized with their host culture, or cultures. The eroded identity, and the creation of a new one forged from bits and pieces, would likely create something decidedly different from any of the current Elves.

Of course, such a process has probably already been going on in the background of Dalaran for some time, and there's likely more to come. If Blizzard were to ever give the Alliance Dalaran, really give it to them and have the Horde invent their own mystical orders, you could make it the base for a Dalarani allied race.

In other parts of the world, they're also getting along quite well with Draenei and Wildhammers. What could develop from learning something from both those races? What would an Elf-Draenei look like? Draenelf?

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Nah.

I completely understand why they wanted them. "Muh original Warcraft race..." Well, too bad, that changed. The story changed. They're Horde now. The part not being understood is why they aren't getting them. Apparently it's fucking rocket science for some.

You don't always get what you want. Blizzard doesn't seem to care if they're happy or not. Take what you were given, play the game, or shut up about it. It's a pretty mature concept that comes with age, but at some point you realize, just because you want it a certain way doesn't guarantee you'll get it that way. And this situation resonates that lesson a hundred fold.

Your entire post hinged on, "That's not what they asked for." Obviously, Blizzard doesn't care to give them exactly what they asked for. And I have zero doubt in my mind that at one of those developer tables, it was said:

"Well, since we aren't giving them High Elves, let's give them something close to it."

And thus Void Elves were born. These children were given a flavor that wasn't their favorite, and they're pitching a fit because of that. What do I call that? A good business model. They didn't want to take the Blood Elves or even copy them, in likeness, away from the Horde. They had the foresight to know that would upset the faction that already has them as an established race.

In the end, it's a matter of not biting one hand to feed the other. Whether I sided with these people or not, I can see that clear as day. It's not childish to see things that way. Doesn't seem you know the behavior of a child, apparently.

Heh.

I completely understand why they wanted them. "Muh original Warcraft race..."

You certainly "completely" understand all the reasons why people wanted High Elves.

Look, if you are going to completely dismiss any of the reasons people wanted High Elves and be so reductive about it and make it about an issue about "maturity", you are not being mature at all. If you fail to see more nuance than "muh original warcraft race..." then it's on you.

There are multiple reasons why people wanted High Elves, and one of the biggest one is the lore, and yet there was not even an attempt to fulfill that with Void Elves.

For some reason you seem to think we are not able to criticize what many of us consider a narrative issue about the juxtaposition between the SC High Elves continued presence and the Void Elves lack of any connection to the reasons why people wanted High Elves, instead you simply call it "whine"

There were certainly so much better ways to make Void Elves actually a compromise for High Elves in terms of Lore even while looking the same, but they aren't, and you still think that people that wanted High Elves should be grateful for something that isn't what they wanted, but you deem close enough, even when it wasn't about you. Seems that not only high elf fans are self centered.

I believe there are valid criticisms about the way Blizzard has approached High Elves, but the decision has been made and that's that. Yet your belief that none of the criticisms are valid speaks far more about a desire to de-legitimize any opposing claim rather than having an actual discussion, of actually hearing the other side.

In the end, it's a matter of not biting one hand to feed the other. Whether I sided with these people or not, I can see that clear as day. It's not childish to see things that way. Doesn't seem you know the behavior of a child, apparently.

It's pretty childish to try to dismiss criticism because "daddy said so". The discussion goes beyond "Playable High Elves" I am being critical of the lack of acknowledgement of feedback, the complete left field VE were, the lack of any resolution to HE lore, those are things that go beyond "playable HE" and that aren't resolved by Ion's unsatisfactory answer.

Daddy can be wrong, you can be critical of him.

- - - Updated - - -

This is almost entirely what I was getting at. Who the High Elves are "now" isn't something that will survive, but what's left of them could create something new. Likely hybridized with their host culture, or cultures. The eroded identity, and the creation of a new one forged from bits and pieces, would likely create something decidedly different from any of the current Elves.

Of course, such a process has probably already been going on in the background of Dalaran for some time, and there's likely more to come. If Blizzard were to ever give the Alliance Dalaran, really give it to them and have the Horde invent their own mystical orders, you could make it the base for a Dalarani allied race.

In other parts of the world, they're also getting along quite well with Draenei and Wildhammers. What could develop from learning something from both those races? What would an Elf-Draenei look like? Draenelf?

There is just a lot of potential for cultural syncretism, mixing populations, reforging an Identity, facing cultural oblivion, evolving or dying, etc. There is so much that can be done with the place that HE had and have on Warcraft Lore, so the point about "not being unique enough" just feels very disingenuous. There's a difefrence between "there's not a story here" and "this is not the story we want to tell" The potential is there. Dalaran already is a multicultural nation, Allerian Stronghold as much in a more isolated way.

High Elves have definitely the potential to be a very interesting playable race, but not because they are "blue eyed blonde elves", but because of their story, a story that, ultimately, doesn't even require playable high elves.

[Arrashi]

It's pretty childish to try to dismiss criticism because "daddy said so". The discussion goes beyond "Playable High Elves" I am being critical of the lack of acknowledgement of feedback, the complete left field VE were, the lack of any resolution to HE lore, those are things that go beyond "playable HE" and that aren't resolved by Ion's unsatisfactory answer.

I think that you are one misunderstanding something. Its not matter about daddy being wrong. Its matter of daddy not giving a fuck. Blizzard doesn't want to add high elves. Simple as that. This isn't them being wrong about something. Its not lack of communication. Its not them not knowing the lore. Its them not wanting to add high elves. Its simple as that. No buts. No second bottoms. Just. That.

[FlubberPuddy]

I think that you are one misunderstanding something. Its not matter about daddy being wrong. Its matter of daddy not giving a fuck. Blizzard doesn't want to add high elves. Simple as that. This isn't them being wrong about something. Its not lack of communication. Its not them not knowing the lore. Its them not wanting to add high elves. Its simple as that. No buts. No second bottoms. Just. That.

Nah if it was that simple they would've just said so instead of beating around the bush. But it seems like that isn't the case. We instead got a bunch of reasons with so many holes to them no water holds.

[Arrashi]

Nah if it was that simple they would've just said so instead of beating around the bush. But it seems like that isn't the case.

But they just did. They did just that. Its you guys who refuse to acknowledge that. Its you who look for second meanings. "He said no, but he meant the gates are open"