Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Enkrypt]

"We currently have no plans to makes High Elves playable..."

And then this...

Honestly. I suspect they DO have HE plans...

Genuine curiosity, what makes you suspect it?

[Fyersing]

The possibility of a resolution exists, but this is far from saying BFA is the 'last hurrah' for the faction war.

"We've had run-ins, we've had close calls, but we've never been able to finish it—to have that resolution. [SNIP] It's time to resolve it."

If you look up the colloquialism "last hurrah", I'm sure you'll see the interpretation isn't far off from what was said.

[The Emperor]

So this thread has had me captivated for some time. I never browsed through it, just watched it getting bumped over and over again, and its the same situation over on official forums, so I take it there's a good chance some of the posters here and over there are same people.
What really made me finally post here is the fact that I just don't understand the reason why it is such a hot topic. There are many races (some of them even elves, like San'layn) that I'd like to see added.

But I just can't comprehend how people can argue about the fact that high elves are same model, practically same people as blood elves, except for eye color. How is it that in 310 pages and counting people can't get over the fact that they are not unique enough to be added? And I'm not even going to mention what some game developer said, although his response was pretty straightforward and hardly leaves room for hope about this race introduction. Can someone please kindly explain to me this phenomenon of rejecting the obvious reasons for why this race is not going to be added and keep on discussing the possible ways it can be?

[Deleted]

But I just can't comprehend how people can argue about the fact that high elves are same model, practically same people as blood elves, except for eye color. How is it that in 310 pages and counting people can't get over the fact that they are not unique enough to be added? And I'm not even going to mention what some game developer said, although his response was pretty straightforward and hardly leaves room for hope about this race introduction. Can someone please kindly explain to me this phenomenon of rejecting the obvious reasons for why this race is not going to be added and keep on discussing the possible ways it can be?

They don't need to be unique, just consistent with established lore. Not like the Highmountains are any unique either, when the only difference is their horns.
And what that fool of a dev said just goes to show his ignorance on the matter. He has lost all credibility.

[Friendlyimmolation]

They don't need to be unique, just consistent with established lore. Not like the Highmountains are any unique either, when the only difference is their horns.
And what that fool of a dev said just goes to show his ignorance on the matter. He has lost all credibility.

Just because you are upset with the developer not taking your side, doesn't mean he is a fool, nor is his credibility lost because he isn't catering to a minority who can't get over burning crusade.

Also you're using highmountain not so different argument, when their parent race is on the same faction, it doesn't work.

[Elysia]

Y'all, this thread started with some awesome potential to discuss things that could make High Elves stand out and worth it as an allied race. The OP has so many cool ideas in it, and there was clearly a lot of effort put into it. While we're not saying this has to be a "pro high elf" only thread, coming into here just to say "it's never happening" and stomp all over each other isn't okay.

It doesn't matter if the devs hypothetically do say that it will never happen. People are still allowed to speculate and have fun with ideas. A lot of you seem to only post in here to destroy that and rile others up, and that needs to stop.

[Darththeo]

Pro Helfers: "We want Silver Covenant High Elves!'
Anti Helfers: "Aren't those just blood elves with blue eyes?"
Devs : "If you want fair haired, light skinned elves the horde is waiting for you."

*points to this topic*

Also, your anti-helfer statement isn't something that just an Anti-Helfer would say. It is anyone not Pro-Helfer could ask such a question.

[Goldielocks]

It doesn't matter if the devs hypothetically do say that it will never happen.

?????????

I don't follow. What about this is hypothetical?

[Asotcha]

I mean it's pretty fucken obvious they just want to shit on others discussing something they don't like and/or hoping for it to not be talked about so they can continue their pompous gloating. Otherwise why else go into a thread specifically made for discussion of one thing and keep trying to say stuff such as, "it's never happening get over it" "this thread still exists why?" etc etc.

Speaking only for myself, I keep visiting these threads to lurk and browse occasionally because I'm kind of fascinated in the psychological aspect of when or how the 'diehards' will start to relax and see the writing on the wall.

I once heard a story (I dunno if its true), that to catch a raccoon, you have to put a cookie in a box with a little hole in the side. That the raccoon would reach into the hole to grab the cookie, but then with the cookie in its hand wouldn't be able to pull his hand out of the hole again, and would refuse to let go of the damn cookie.

Over the course of several anti-threads on GD, I've seen many discussion points against helves, ranging from blunt, to compassionate, to rational, to the elaborate. And though there have been many supporters who were more able to listen then others, there were others that simply couldn't let go of the cookie, no matter what the cost.

Somehow in a grand sense there are some who have radicalized themselves in this fandom. Its a product of the close community mostly breathing its own air and the huge emotional investment that was put into it. And this means that even more energy goes into protecting those same ideas and their 'cause'. This has led to people trying to make it about factions, too--even though both sides of this 'debate' have been blended factions from the beginning.

So I come back every now and again, to see if some familiar faces realize the facts enough to relax.

That doesn't follow. Just because they haven't given High Elves and gave Void Elves doesn't mean they are opposed in all instances to ever give High Elves to the Alliance. Again, the Devs don't support either extreme.

Pro Helfers: High Elves are coming!
Anti Helfers: High Elves will not be playable.
Devs: High Elves not playable now and maybe never.

Anti-Helfers need to realize that their stance isn't the Devs and isn't supported by the Devs.

You must have not read a lot of the discussion on this. It was more like this:

Pro Helfers: "We want Silver Covenant High Elves!'
Anti Helfers: "Aren't those just blood elves with blue eyes?"
Devs : "If you want fair haired, light skinned elves the horde is waiting for you."


(Edit: This post was accidently deleted when I was messing with it; this is it recreated. It was originally a few posts above.)

[Darththeo]

?????????

I don't follow. What about this is hypothetical?

The Devs never stated point blank it isn't happening. They merely stated their reasons why it isn't happening now. Anything beyond that is pure speculation on what the devs stated based on how your view what they said, hence hypothetical.

[Goldielocks]

The Devs never stated point blank it isn't happening. They merely stated their reasons why it isn't happening now. Anything beyond that is pure speculation on what the devs stated based on how your view what they said, hence hypothetical.

That is honestly pure mental gymnastics. People don't call every binary choice with loose ends hypotheticals. They use trends to infer probability instead.

Seems like a misnomer to me.

[Darththeo]

That is honestly pure mental gymnastics. People don't call every binary choice with loose ends hypotheticals. They use trends to infer probability instead.

Seems like a misnomer to me.

They are speaking about a supposed possibility on what the Devs have/may say ... that's a hypothetical.

[Deleted]

Horde players shouldn't even get any say in this matter, as it won't effect them at all.

[Elysia]

That is honestly pure mental gymnastics. People don't call every binary choice with loose ends hypotheticals. They use trends to infer probability instead.

Seems like a misnomer to me.

The devs have said "never" to things before that have turned out to happen later on (classic servers are a great example). Even if one dev says "never" now, that dev could leave a year from now, and then the rest of the team decides to do it anyway. Coming into this thread just to harp on that it will "never happen" serves literally no purpose other than to be contrarian and rile the people who want it to happen up. Sometimes it's okay to just let people enjoy things.

Anti-high elf discussion is still allowed, but it needs to be productive. Anyone who has made posts to the effect of "I don't think it should happen and here are my reasons why" are fine. Continually just shouting "nuh uh this will never happen, devs said so" is not useful or adding anything to the thread at this point.

If people want to discuss the moderation decisions for this thread further, they can contact any global privately.

[Combatbutler]

The devs have said "never" to things before that have turned out to happen later on. Even if one dev says "never" now, that dev could leave a year from now, and then the rest of the team decides to do it anyway.

In this case Blizz hasn't changed their minds for well over a decade now and continued to hammer it down, whenever it was brought up. It is one consistent stream of no over the years. Ignoring this and saying well they could always change their mind is quite the whimsical argumentation to be honest, not to mention the high elves aren't really suitable even as a subrace, due to literally no feature on their own, even the ones brought up in this very thread, wc2 tattos etc. is not a real argument, since these customization's are already part of the farstrider theme. The high elves can really only be defined by the things they did after they split off from the blood elves, which is minuscule to say the least.

[Asotcha]

That's the part I am being critical of, the logic behind this statement. Void Elves are playable, they are literally a group of scholars. The SC is a groupf of militant Dalaran High Elves, part of a populace that has existed for almost 2700 years. Form isn't following function if we are supposed to believe that VE are somehow MORE than even SC High Elves. The later have been represented for 4 expansions, with almost 50 named NPC's. There is such a clear disconnect between representation and number if VE are somehow more than HE, which given they background, it's just so very unlikely they are. "Blizzard said so" does not preclude from questioning their logic.

VE are few and we don't have confirmation more can be created. So how can you claim the population argument has much validity when they exist? Everything about their Background contrasted even ONLY to the SC should logically make them fewer. Your logic is based on "they MUST be more if they are playable" which, again, isn't supported by any context or evidence. This is why the whole population thing doesn't really matter.

As to your concerns about the population argument, I have a feeling that its to account for future story development. The reason I'm saying this is because it has the exact same 'feel' as something that happened before Legion, when many of the rogues campaigned for Ravenholdt Manor to be our class hall instead of the underbelly in Dal.

Here we had something that was canonically attached to us, the lore was already there, the concept of a spy manor was great, and so forth. The paladins were getting an area under Lights Hope Chapel in the EPL, so that clearly meant they weren't above altering some places in the older zones for this.

There was a little more though; in the Fangs of the Father questline (Cata chain for the legendary daggers, and our first introduction to Wrathion), that place was pretty much wrecked at the last part of that chain. There was never more info given on if it had been rebuilt or left alone, though; plus the larger population of rogues hadn't done that quest, where we would get quests to go to Ravenholdt even as we were leveling. There was also talk of the manor needing to be rebuilt anyway could make it better and bring it up graphically, while a few others said it should be preserved in its original state ingame like a historical site.

See the parts of this where I sense the familiarity?

But Blizz held to the Dalaran underbelly---it even snuck into a Nixxiom machinima about the order halls as a joke where the rogue in the order hall said "Oh yeah this is fine... we didn't need to be in a mansion anyway' (something to that effect. its a pretty funny video as it visits every order hall).

What we didn't know though until later during the beta was that Ravenholdt himself was actually the leader of the Uncrowned himself. It was His decision to choose Dal over his manor, and it was never clarified whether it was rebuilt, but a few patches into Legion in our order hall, we all got a scroll of teleportation that sends us to Ravenholdt Manor with a cd of a few hours. Nice little olive-branch/nod, and its a nice way to get to that part of the world in style (especially as Alliance when our options boil down to a mage port to 'ancient dal' or a long FP to the plaguelands).

But as to the frustration of why a seemingly commonsense answer wasn't chosen off the cuff, I'll always remember how it fell into place when more info popped up later. This situation bearing similar ingredients may turn out to be another example.

Which ties with my own personal view of Half Elves as my preferred scenario as the "legacy of the alliance High Elves"

I think it was last week/a few days ago, a thread began on GD with modest support but consisting of both pro and anti helfers--supporting half-elves and mag'har orcs. This could give them a little more artistic license in how they're designed without clear drawbacks; so maybe later if they're feeling like it, it could always be something they go for in due time (lore permitting, of course).

[Friendlyimmolation]

Horde players shouldn't even get any say in this matter, as it won't effect them at all.

You're advocating for a Horde race to be playable on the Alliance too, it would be false to say that the Horde doesn't get a say.

[FlubberPuddy]

In this case Blizz hasn't changed their minds for well over a decade now and continued to hammer it down, whenever it was brought up. It is one consistent stream of no over the years. Ignoring this and saying well they could always change their mind is quite the whimsical argumentation to be honest, not to mention the high elves aren't really suitable even as a subrace, due to literally no feature on their own, even the ones brought up in this very thread, wc2 tattos etc. is not a real argument, since these customization's are already part of the farstrider theme. The high elves can really only be defined by the things they did after they split off from the blood elves, which is minuscule to say the least.

I think the reason people don't take the things the devs say, even when it's a "never" is because Blizzard has continually shown many times that even when they directly say "no" at a certain point, that point doesn't last forever.

It's not just Classic servers, it's things like Transmog being added, LFR, allowing Horde and Alliance on same servers, being able to speak cross faction (if you're a Pandaren, DH, and now Void Elf / Blood Elf), Dino forms other than travel for Zandalari and heck even different druid forms in general (KT Druids), updates to current races (BE Gold Eyes), they directly lied about LF Draenei when asked if they'd be something added to players then blam Allied Races came out, finally allowing account level honor / pvp vicious mounts after saying they'd like to keep pvp stuff character based etc. There's probably a bunch of other shit too that I don't know of the top of my head they've directly refused and then added later.

So in this situation where they didn't directly say, "no" vs the other times they have directly said "no" just really doesn't hold weight. Also again, there's a camp that thinks they said no forever, and a camp that says no for now. Can't really say one or the other is "right" other than there was no direct "no" for High Elves being added.

It's not that they haven't changed their minds for over a decade. They have flipped flopped on it many times (After the 2005 spiel of saying there's barely any of em, we get a whole group of them in Wrath expansion) and they contemplated them during WoD times and Chris Metzen even name dropped for High Elf fans during the Old Alliance of Lordaeron spiel at WoD, internally playing around with the idea. Ultimately, for now, they've decided to hold off on it. But again it doesn't mean it won't ever come to be.

Their reasons for not wanting it fall flat on its face when Void Elves are considered. The only thing we can garner from Ion saying what he said is that obviously Skin Color is enough to be a difference but not Eye color itself. Which is something again they're already doing, High Elves have access to really pale skin options that Blood Elves don't ever have access to.

If you take all this into consideration, maybe you think it amounts to nothing at all, but it's easy to see why there are others that can come to the conclusion "Ok well seems like now isn't a good time but they are definitely different enough"

Also it's kind of silly to say what High Elves have done after the Blood Elf split is miniscule, nothing minuscule about having more screen time than already playable Alliance Races, doesn't matter if you may consider it "small stuff" most of the things like Purge of Dal, Throne of Thunder face off, and Suramar invasion can't be ignored if an Alliance player follows the main story since those are main story elements (not even considering the huge focus during Wrath).

While that may be a fine point in showing that things can change, but using it as something comparable to the possibility of HE is a massive stretch in terms of differences.

One is an in-game race that *might* make them some money. The other is an act that WILL make them money, but not just that, as it also saves them money so they don't have to pony up money for lawyers and court fees in fighting pirate/private servers and it also helps in protecting their IP. Them choosing not to add High Elves isn't really hurting them badly, whereas not protecting the IP or choosing to constantly fight against private/pirate servers could be costly.

This is really dumb line of thought. High Elves "might make money" that's so silly to say. Every Allied Race they release makes em money and doesn't cost them as much to produce as before - that's the entire purpose of why Blizzard is doing Allied Races in the first place: "minimal effort" for great gain (I put in quotes because obviously they work hard making these). High Elves for sure would garner them a LOT of money. Blizzard doesn't add things to the game that doesn't make them any money. And if barely different Tauren are good enough to be made and garner them money then the most popular race request since before the game launched damn sure will.

I don't know which side of the debate you were on when it came to Classic Servers but clearly there were tons of dumbos who thought Blizzard would never release Classic Servers because it would "make them no money/be a waste of time/money" when the demand for it was so damn clear and that's the same line of thinking some of you anti-helfers seem to have as well.

I think what a lot of people fall into the trap of is "well if it's so much a sure thing why didn't they do it right away!?" And that's because just like Blizzard gates patch content, and weekly quests for content, they'll gate Allied Races (I mean they're already doing that as evidenced by Dark Iron/Mag'har coming before Zandalari/Kul'Tiran). They have no reason to rush, they can look and see what demand there is and if it's viable for them to do, just as they did for Classic Servers.

I guarantee it wasn't just the recent push by Nostalrius, that was probably just the straw that broke the camel's back.

You're advocating for a Horde race to be playable on the Alliance too, it would be false to say that the Horde doesn't get a say.

Alliance High Elves like the Silver Covenant aren't a Horde race. High Elves aren't a Horde Race. Blood Elves are a Horde Race. Void Elves are Blood Elves, oh look at that so Blood Elves are on Horde and Alliance now.

I know people aren't that stupid to think when people talk about High Elves they don't know which group is being spoken of, so I think those who say High Elves are a Horde race are just trying to rile others up. It's pretty clear which group of Elves are being referenced when speaking about "High Elves being playable."

- - - Updated - - -

Y'all, this thread started with some awesome potential to discuss things that could make High Elves stand out and worth it as an allied race. The OP has so many cool ideas in it, and there was clearly a lot of effort put into it. While we're not saying this has to be a "pro high elf" only thread, coming into here just to say "it's never happening" and stomp all over each other isn't okay.

It doesn't matter if the devs hypothetically do say that it will never happen. People are still allowed to speculate and have fun with ideas. A lot of you seem to only post in here to destroy that and rile others up, and that needs to stop.

Thank freakin' goodness. Hopefully this stops those incredibly useless "this thread should be closed" posts.

- - - Updated - - -

Speaking only for myself, I keep visiting these threads to lurk and browse occasionally because I'm kind of fascinated in the psychological aspect of when or how the 'diehards' will start to relax and see the writing on the wall.

I once heard a story (I dunno if its true), that to catch a raccoon, you have to put a cookie in a box with a little hole in the side. That the raccoon would reach into the hole to grab the cookie, but then with the cookie in its hand wouldn't be able to pull his hand out of the hole again, and would refuse to let go of the damn cookie.

Over the course of several anti-threads on GD, I've seen many discussion points against helves, ranging from blunt, to compassionate, to rational, to the elaborate. And though there have been many supporters who were more able to listen then others, there were others that simply couldn't let go of the cookie, no matter what the cost.

Somehow in a grand sense there are some who have radicalized themselves in this fandom. Its a product of the close community mostly breathing its own air and the huge emotional investment that was put into it. And this means that even more energy goes into protecting those same ideas and their 'cause'. This has led to people trying to make it about factions, too--even though both sides of this 'debate' have been blended factions from the beginning.

So I come back every now and again, to see if some familiar faces realize the facts enough to relax.

I think what's interesting about this line of thinking is you don't seem to be considering the anti-crowd that also isn't laxing down. I bet you the High Elf threads wouldn't be as active as they are currently if the anti-crowd didn't continually come in to try to have others "shut up about this" "shut this down" etc and then also debate back and forth.

The debates back and forth are the main cause of continuing the livelihood of the threads, because too many of the involved posters on both sides are too uppity about "being right."

[Asotcha]

I think what's interesting about this line of thinking is you don't seem to be considering the anti-crowd that also isn't laxing down. I bet you the High Elf threads wouldn't be as active as they are currently if the anti-crowd didn't continually come in to try to have others "shut up about this" "shut this down" etc and then also debate back and forth.

First, if its so interesting to you, you'll have probably noticed that at no point in my post did I talk about the existence or longevity of the thread; beyond my statement of coming to read it for my stated reasons, after being prompted by a quote wondering out loud why people came to read it.

Further, you avoided each thing I mentioned in my post, while spamming the 'both sides' button and playing the 'leave Helven Brittany alone' victim trope, which never adds much to consider. Its the forum equivalent of a squid shooting ink at predators before swimming away.

The debates back and forth are the main cause of continuing the livelihood of the threads, because too many of the involved posters on both sides are too uppity about "being right."

Since it seems as though dutifully maintaining the elven discussion threads is important to the community in general, you're welcome, I guess? Because without people posting here you'd be down to talking about racials and starting zones. Over...and over....and Over....and Over...and Over....

Collectively, if you guys don't start learning to let go of the cookie, its going to keep controlling you.

That said, its none of my business--take care.


edit:

You are of course, correct.

And I am not making that claim just because I am Anti High Elf.

Immediately after the announcement of Void Elves the official forums were spammed by threads known as the Unofficial Void Elf discussion threads.

You can find the link here.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20761606896

These threads were the genesis of the latest iteration of the playable High Elf movement. At the time these threads were live, the goal was to 'improve' Void Elves by offering them extra customizations. And by extra customizations they meant normal skin tones.

This was very illuminating. See, I never read any of the void elf threads because I wasn't sure if it would end up being my 'thing' or not...I had no idea about this. Its kind of crazy looking through some of the pages, knowing what we know now.

[Deleted]

We have bloodelfs