1. #5861
    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    What would an Elf-Draenei look like? Draenelf?
    Well if the half-orc/half-draenei tha is Garona has anything to appear for it....pretty hot.

  2. #5862
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    But they just did. They did just that. Its you guys who refuse to acknowledge that.
    Nah, it's pretty clear that they didn't say just that. You wouldn't be having people say "why doesn't blizzard just say they don't wanna do them" to this day if it really was just that.

    All you're wanting is for others to accept it that way even when that's not the reality of the situation yet trying to call others in denial for it.

  3. #5863
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Nah, it's pretty clear that they didn't say just that. You wouldn't be having people say "why doesn't blizzard just say they don't wanna do them" to this day if it really was just that.

    All you're wanting is for others to accept it that way even when that's not the reality of the situation yet trying to call others in denial for it.
    Unless those people are in denial, and created echo chambers.

  4. #5864
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Unless those people are in denial, and created echo chambers.
    If it isn't just one thread, but from multiple parts of the community at large saying this, which taken into considerationg wowhead a separate entity, red shirt guy a separate entity, reddit being a separate entity, wow forums itself, this mmo-c site here as well.

    Yeah it's not an echo chamber if it's being said across a lot of the different community sites.
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2018-05-17 at 01:02 AM.

  5. #5865
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    If it isn't just one thread, but from multiple parts of the community at large saying this, which taken into considerationg wowhead a separate entity, red shirt guy a separate entity, reddit being a separate entity, wow forums itself, this mmo-c site here as well.

    Yeah it's not an echo chamber if it's being said across a lot of the different community sites.
    Unless you know, people invested voice their opinion on multiple forums. And tell me what kind of authority red shirt guy is ? His personal opinions are now some directions for lore to take ?
    Echo chamber is echo chamber.

  6. #5866
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Unless you know, people invested voice their opinion on multiple forums. And tell me what kind of authority red shirt guy is ? His personal opinions are now some directions for lore to take ?
    Echo chamber is echo chamber.
    What's interesting is you and some others keep calling this an echo chamber and then berate others for going "just because you say it enough times doesn't make it the reality" when that's how you guys are being with calling this topic "an echo chamber" when clearly it's diffused throughout the entire wow communities.

    And Red Shirt Guy has more prominence than you so I'd likely take his reasonings or comments more so than a random MMO-C poster. He has at least some greater amount of influence as has been shown by him and Blizzard than you basically.

  7. #5867
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    What's interesting is you and some others keep calling this an echo chamber and then berate others for going "just because you say it enough times doesn't make it the reality" when that's how you guys are being with calling this topic "an echo chamber" when clearly it's diffused throughout the entire wow communities.

    And Red Shirt Guy has more prominence than you so I'd likely take his reasonings or comments more so than a random MMO-C poster. He has at least some greater amount of influence as has been shown by him and Blizzard than you basically.
    Clearly not enough for them to give a damn.

    And the diffrence betwen you and us is that we have devs supporting our point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Clearly not enough for them to give a damn.

    And the diffrence betwen you and us is that we have devs supporting our point.
    The point was more prominent influencers are speaking up about how terrible the reasons they gave were. That was the point from my comments of our conversation here from the get go.

    Everyone already knows Blizzard can do whatever they want with their game. That's not what's ever been argued.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Clearly not enough for them to give a damn.

    And the diffrence betwen you and us is that we have devs supporting our point.
    Only in your mind do you believe the devs are supporting your point. They aren't really supporting either extreme.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  10. #5870
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    The point was more prominent influencers are speaking up about how terrible the reasons they gave were. That was the point from my comments of our conversation here from the get go.

    Everyone already knows Blizzard can do whatever they want with their game. That's not what's ever been argued.
    Now thats a pretensional term. And no, in the end he is random fan voicing his opinion. Opinion that clearly doesn't matter to blizzard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Only in your mind do you believe the devs are supporting your point. They aren't really supporting either extreme.
    Given the fact that they haven't introduced high elves and instead gave you poor mans alternative - yes they do.

  11. #5871
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Given the fact that they haven't introduced high elves and instead gave you poor mans alternative - yes they do.
    That doesn't follow. Just because they haven't given High Elves and gave Void Elves doesn't mean they are opposed in all instances to ever give High Elves to the Alliance. Again, the Devs don't support either extreme.

    Pro Helfers: High Elves are coming!
    Anti Helfers: High Elves will not be playable.
    Devs: High Elves not playable now and maybe never.

    Anti-Helfers need to realize that their stance isn't the Devs and isn't supported by the Devs.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  12. #5872
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Now thats a pretensional term. And no, in the end he is random fan voicing his opinion. Opinion that clearly doesn't matter to blizzard.
    It was never about immediately receiving High Elves after the response regardless so I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at. You seem to believe that since High Elves didn't immediately happen, that....well what do you expect actually from those who want High Elves?

    I'm actually lost in why you say some of the things you do say, most of the time it's missing the points people are making and inserting something that wasn't said to begin with.

  13. #5873
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Heh.



    You certainly "completely" understand all the reasons why people wanted High Elves.

    Look, if you are going to completely dismiss any of the reasons people wanted High Elves and be so reductive about it and make it about an issue about "maturity", you are not being mature at all. If you fail to see more nuance than "muh original warcraft race..." then it's on you.

    There are multiple reasons why people wanted High Elves, and one of the biggest one is the lore, and yet there was not even an attempt to fulfill that with Void Elves.

    For some reason you seem to think we are not able to criticize what many of us consider a narrative issue about the juxtaposition between the SC High Elves continued presence and the Void Elves lack of any connection to the reasons why people wanted High Elves, instead you simply call it "whine"

    There were certainly so much better ways to make Void Elves actually a compromise for High Elves in terms of Lore even while looking the same, but they aren't, and you still think that people that wanted High Elves should be grateful for something that isn't what they wanted, but you deem close enough, even when it wasn't about you. Seems that not only high elf fans are self centered.

    I believe there are valid criticisms about the way Blizzard has approached High Elves, but the decision has been made and that's that. Yet your belief that none of the criticisms are valid speaks far more about a desire to de-legitimize any opposing claim rather than having an actual discussion, of actually hearing the other side.



    It's pretty childish to try to dismiss criticism because "daddy said so". The discussion goes beyond "Playable High Elves" I am being critical of the lack of acknowledgement of feedback, the complete left field VE were, the lack of any resolution to HE lore, those are things that go beyond "playable HE" and that aren't resolved by Ion's unsatisfactory answer.

    Daddy can be wrong, you can be critical of him.[/B]
    Nah, you're just being reductive about the reasons given, and the situation at hand. It is exactly as I quoted. "Muh original Warcraft race". Why? Because they aren't happy with the compromise given. You think this is a seven layer lasagna, but it's only gas station pizza.

    *shrug* I stand firm in my belief that the players who continue to ask for them are just basically unable to accept the truth. You can pretend there's nuance to the situation, but there isn't.

    Flat out, there aren't enough High Elves to constitute a playable race. The race belongs to the Horde. They don't want to muddy the waters between the factions. <--- There's your nuance.

    Void Elves are their Thalassian-shaped Elves, and that's that.

    But by all means, keep pretending this is an issue that has more depth than it truly has. It boils down to players asking for something, being given a compromise, and they're unhappy with it.

    Pretty simple. I have been open to discussion, and I remain unconvinced.
    Last edited by Enkrypt; 2018-05-17 at 03:14 PM.

  14. #5874
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    There is just a lot of potential for cultural syncretism, mixing populations, reforging an Identity, facing cultural oblivion, evolving or dying, etc. There is so much that can be done with the place that HE had and have on Warcraft Lore, so the point about "not being unique enough" just feels very disingenuous. There's a difefrence between "there's not a story here" and "this is not the story we want to tell" The potential is there. Dalaran already is a multicultural nation, Allerian Stronghold as much in a more isolated way.

    High Elves have definitely the potential to be a very interesting playable race, but not because they are "blue eyed blonde elves", but because of their story, a story that, ultimately, doesn't even require playable high elves.
    Yeah. With their circumstances, I'm kind of imagining that they could serve as the base of a new race born from pieces of all the Alliance's cultures and such. Is there even an Elven word for Alliance? Or something thematically associated with them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
    Well if the half-orc/half-draenei tha is Garona has anything to appear for it....pretty hot.
    Great. Now lets ruin it with some Dwarf.

  15. #5875
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkrypt View Post
    Nah, you're just being reductive about the reasons given, and the situation at hand. It is exactly as I quoted. "Muh original Warcraft race". Why? Because they aren't happy with the compromise given. You think this is a seven layer lasagna, but it's only gas station pizza.
    Well, that's more because Void Elves are more of a compromise of giving the Horde Nightborne than a High Elf compromise.

    *shrug* I stand firm in my belief that the players who continue to ask for them are just basically unable to accept the truth. You can pretend there's nuance to the situation, but there isn't.
    You're right to be wrong.

    Flat out, there aren't enough High Elves to constitute a playable race. The race belongs to the Horde. They don't want to muddy the waters between the factions.
    There are more High Elves than Void Elves and yet Void Elves are playable ... numbers clearly don't matter.
    The races "belongs" to neither faction, the playable version is on the Horde, unplayable members are with the Alliance.
    Pretty much the waters are already muddy ... a truth you reject because you "justify" that in your mind, but can't justify playable High Elves.

    But by all means, keep pretending this is an issue that has more depth than it truly has. It boils down to players asking for something, being given a compromise, and they're unhappy with it.
    Your inability to think beyond the simplistic isn't evidence.

    Pretty simple. I have been open to discussion, and I remain unconvinced.
    Given that with many individuals you have started commenting to them by putting them down, this is clearly not true. Given that you have assert that you are "firm" in your belief they cannot accept the truth ... you have already made up your mind and won't change regardless of the argument. You basically prove you aren't open to discussion because you "know" you are right and don't care for a debate.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  16. #5876
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    ...
    Your argument has changed with each post you make. Mine has not. I've been consistent. You have not.

    You accuse people of being less intelligent, being unable to read, and generally condescending with each and every post you make. When you have shown me, multiple times, you are guilty of the very accusations you dole out so carelessly. Even to people who speak to you respectfully, which you are far from deserving of, you have attacked them to compensate for your inferior stance on this matter.

    I believe I am right, yes. What kind of person believes they're wrong? I have made up my mind in the regard that I believe Blizzard, and I see what they're saying. I understand it. I see how the story developed and I know why Void Elves feel like an ass-pull. Because they are. Yet, you're here accusing me of not understanding something simple? Haha, okay dude. It is clearly you who does not understand something that is plain to see, but sure, keep deflecting your insecurity back at me. Want to see something simple?

    1) Alleria and Turalyon return.
    2) The two of them could have ushered in the return of the High Elves. Turalyon, as respected as he is, could have pleaded their case to the Human High King.
    3) Vereesa and Alleria could have pioneered it, even. Again, making sense. It could have been a plot to retake Silvermoon against the big, bad Sylvanas.
    4) None of that happened.
    5) Alleria adopted the Void at the last minute, which even to me, feels cheap and poorly planned.
    6) That indicates to me, that at some point late in development, they probably scrapped the idea of High Elves joining the Alliance for reasons Ion announced.
    7) So as a compromise, Void Elves were developed in their place.
    8) Blizzard officially announces they believe the Blood Elf, fair-skinned, blond-haired Thalassian elf model is bonded to the Horde. That's their identity. The same way Humans identify with the Alliance, these elves identify with the Horde.

    Why did it happen that way? If you have a good argument for explaining to me that timeline of events that makes more sense, I'll give you credit.

    All the examples given of the population of the High Elves from you guys are largely unconvincing. Ninety percent of it is, "Void Elves have low numbers, so High Elves make sense." But the flaw in that argument is not understanding that Void Elves have a future, more are being created lore-wise, and game-wise, they are the substitute for High Elves. Blizzard will make sense of it. Fans will not. When someone does present an argument that is substantial enough to outweigh my point of view, I will honestly give them credit.

    The race does belong to the Horde. To prove that, all you have to do is open your character selection screen and go to the Horde. They're listed there, and strangely, they're not listed on the Alliance. Hm, I wonder why? Try to tell me they don't belong to the Horde again. This is why I find you hard to take seriously. You say things like: Blood Elves don't belong to the Horde. Lol, wut?

    For someone who adamantly challenges any of the anti-High Elfers, I must say, you have not presented one single argument. All you've done is quote our posts, compartmentalize them, and act as though you're dismantling our belief and that we are wrong for it. Do you tell people who don't like chicken that they're wrong and you're right? Serious question.

    You don't get to assert my stance. You want my full opinion on the matter? That's it. That's the full story of why I'm confident in my opinion.
    Last edited by Enkrypt; 2018-05-17 at 04:15 PM.

  17. #5877
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkrypt View Post
    All the examples given of the population of the High Elves from you guys are largely unconvincing. Ninety percent of it is, "Void Elves have low numbers, so High Elves make sense." But the flaw in that argument is not understanding that Void Elves have a future, more are being created lore-wise, and game-wise, they are the substitute for High Elves. Blizzard will make sense of it. Fans will not. When someone does present an argument that is substantial enough to outweigh my point of view, I will honestly give them credit.
    There's are several problems with the above statement.

    First, there's no canon source that outright says or shows a new void elf being created. The scholars studying the void may imply that, but it's an assumption. They may be learning about it in the same way Alleria did, which would mean future "void elves" would not look like playable void elves.

    Second, assuming more void elves are being transformed. We are not sure they can reproduce normally, and even if they do, the children will need time to grow up, and their starting population is just too low to sustain a society. They have to draw their numbers from high and blood elves. In essence, the best future the void elves can have is to absorb the high elves. So how do the population argument can favor them over high elves?

    Third, why would elves choose in mass to delve into a dangerous source of power that even the void elves themselves know it's too dangerous? I can imagine a few adventurous souls doing so for many reasons, but an entire population?

    Like you, I do think at some point Blizzard considered high elves and, at last moment, chose void elves instead. But, if so, Blizzard should be trying to show how cool and awesome void elves and the future plans for them are, not try to justify not using high elves with arguments that could very well apply to the void elves themselves.
    Whatever...

  18. #5878
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    There's are several problems with the above statement.

    First, there's no canon source that outright says or shows a new void elf being created. The scholars studying the void may imply that, but it's an assumption. They may be learning about it in the same way Alleria did, which would mean future "void elves" would not look like playable void elves.

    Second, assuming more void elves are being transformed. We are not sure they can reproduce normally, and even if they do, the children will need time to grow up, and their starting population is just too low to sustain a society. They have to draw their numbers from high and blood elves. In essence, the best future the void elves can have is to absorb the high elves. So how do the population argument can favor them over high elves?

    Third, why would elves choose in mass to delve into a dangerous source of power that even the void elves themselves know it's too dangerous? I can imagine a few adventurous souls doing so for many reasons, but an entire population?

    Like you, I do think at some point Blizzard considered high elves and, at last moment, chose void elves instead. But, if so, Blizzard should be trying to show how cool and awesome void elves and the future plans for them are, not try to justify not using high elves with arguments that could very well apply to the void elves themselves.
    I'm not sure if you saw but I posted this earlier:

    What is your role in this campaign, magister?

    "As a magister, my duty has always been to Silvermoon and its people. When the mad Arthas devastated our lands, I knew we must harness every power available to ensure our survival.

    Prince Kael'thas proposed one way. I sought out another."

    So you sought the power of shadow?

    "My followers and I felt no loyalty to the Horde. When Grand Magister Rommath forbade our Void research, we did not hesitate to break away and follow our own path.

    But hubris got the best of me. I was certain I could master any force we encountered.

    I was so wrong..."

    The Void nearly claimed you?

    "I led us right into the ethereals' trap. If not for Alleria Windrunner's intervention, we would have been lost.

    As it was, the shadow energies transformed us... and opened our minds to the whispers of the Void. Without Alleria's guidance, we would have fallen into madness.

    She has helped us quiet our minds. Dampen the whispers. It is a constant struggle."

    Now you fight for the Alliance.

    "We do not stand with the Alliance out of convenience. Nor is it a mere gesture of thanks to Alleria.

    Our ordeal has taught us the importance of great powers being in the right hands. We could not allow the Horde to know the things we know, or to use us as a weapon in their schemes.

    We fight for the Alliance because we believe in its values. And one day, I pray we will bring all of Silvermoon back into the fold."

    How fare you, Magister Umbric?

    "I struggle to fetter the whispers, same as you. Thankfully, Alleria Windrunner continues to offer us her guidance.

    Without her intervention... well, I fear we would have all been lost.

    And though I was reluctant to treat with him at first, I have learned much from the Locus-Walker. Just bear in mind that anything he offers is bound to serve his own goals in some way."

    Do you believe we have earned the trust of the Alliance?

    "So long as Silvermoon stands with the Horde, there will always be those who mistrust us.

    But the Alliance is where our people belong. I am more certain of that now than ever before.

    Stay the course, $n. Show our comrades in the Alliance that we fight for the same cause.

    One day the Horde's grip on our land will be broken, and the children of Quel'Thalas will stand united once more.

    I know it.
    "
    It's from the recent beta build update. Gives more insight into Void Elves, notice how Umbric doesn't mention anything about gaining more members after the fact, so that part is still speculation and neither does he mention or hint anything about High Elves in relation to Void Elves.

    http://www.wowhead.com/news=284450/b...magic-spoilers

    So I don't get why people are still trying to call it some kind of compromise or trying to say that "more are being made".

    His lines here:

    My followers and I felt no loyalty to the Horde. When Grand Magister Rommath forbade our Void research, we did not hesitate to break away and follow our own path.

    As it was, the shadow energies transformed us... and opened our minds to the whispers of the Void. Without Alleria's guidance, we would have fallen into madness.

    We do not stand with the Alliance out of convenience.

    Stay the course, $n. Show our comrades in the Alliance that we fight for the same cause.
    Pay attention to that last bit everyone. He's referring to the player character Void Elf, even uses a Blood Elf tagline "Stay the course" and then reiterates again to show loyalty to the Alliance.

    Why the hell would High Elf -> Void Elf have to show loyalty when they've already been?

    This extra dialogue continues to show that all playable Void Elves are currently Blood Elves, all the ones that are part of Umbric's group specifically at that.
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2018-05-17 at 05:05 PM.

  19. #5879
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    I'm not sure if you saw but I posted this earlier:



    It's from the recent beta build update. Gives more insight into Void Elves, notice how Umbric doesn't mention anything about gaining more members after the fact, so that part is still speculation and neither does he mention or hint anything about High Elves in relation to Void Elves.

    http://www.wowhead.com/news=284450/b...magic-spoilers

    So I don't get why people are still trying to call it some kind of compromise or trying to say that "more are being made".

    His lines here:



    Pay attention to that last bit everyone. He's referring to the player character Void Elf, even uses a Blood Elf tagline "Stay the course" and then reiterates again to show loyalty to the Alliance.

    Why the hell would High Elf -> Void Elf have to show loyalty when they've already been?

    This extra dialogue continues to show that all playable Void Elves are currently Blood Elves, all the ones that are part of Umbric's group specifically at that.
    I'm not really following the thread, entered it casually, but I've seen that datamined Umbric text yesterday.

    I do think more void elves can be created, or else it would the "race" wouldn't have a future. But void elf lore is so shallow we can only especulate. Yes, Umbric's text is clearly talking about the "first generation" ren'dorei, which were his followers, but it doesn't forbid new void elves from eventually be created.

    But there's two things that call my attention in the text: first, that he admits it's not a good idea to delve into the void. To me, that means that, even if more void elves can be created, they will be carefully prepared and selected. I just don't see they absorbing the high elves as a whole into themselves.

    Second, that he does not consider a "void elf" different from the other thalassians. Void elves do not see themselves as a separate society or race. Which means they won't be straying too far from their thalassian roots, and that they will even welcome interaction with high elves (as the interaction with the sorceresses in Stormwind Mage District seem to imply). Blizzard is essentially turning void elves into superpowered blue-skinned "high elves". I won't be surprised if the race is featured working alongside high elves in the future.

    This post is not intended to be either pro- or con-high elves. My personal desire is for them to be playable, but my reason says Blizzard has decided, at least for now, that they won't be, and tried to make void elves as a poorly-conceived but well-intended compromise. I think they'll try to improve on that compromise in the future to make it more appealing.
    Whatever...

  20. #5880
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I think that you are one misunderstanding something. Its not matter about daddy being wrong. Its matter of daddy not giving a fuck. Blizzard doesn't want to add high elves. Simple as that. This isn't them being wrong about something. Its not lack of communication. Its not them not knowing the lore. Its them not wanting to add high elves. Its simple as that. No buts. No second bottoms. Just. That.
    Yeah... and that's the attitude people are being critical of. "But Why" shouldn't be considered this naughty word, this is a discussion, a forum. We are talking about this.

    You don't have to be part of this discussion, but what's the point of coming here and just keep saying "you shouldn't be talking about this because daddy said no"

    Again, we can be critical of Blizzard choices, we all have been. But when it comes to accept the reasons why High Elves are an issue at all, so many of the loud anti voices are just ready to 100% agree with Blizzard, to call the other side childish and entitled and immature because that's easier to believe there are some valid reasoning at the core of it.

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