1. #5881
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    On the frontline
    Posts
    5,383
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    I'm not really following the thread, entered it casually, but I've seen that datamined Umbric text yesterday.

    I do think more void elves can be created, or else it would the "race" wouldn't have a future. But void elf lore is so shallow we can only especulate. Yes, Umbric's text is clearly talking about the "first generation" ren'dorei, which were his followers, but it doesn't forbid new void elves from eventually be created.

    But there's two things that call my attention in the text: first, that he admits it's not a good idea to delve into the void. To me, that means that, even if more void elves can be created, they will be carefully prepared and selected. I just don't see they absorbing the high elves as a whole into themselves.

    Second, that he does not consider a "void elf" different from the other thalassians. Void elves do not see themselves as a separate society or race. Which means they won't be straying too far from their thalassian roots, and that they will even welcome interaction with high elves (as the interaction with the sorceresses in Stormwind Mage District seem to imply). Blizzard is essentially turning void elves into superpowered blue-skinned "high elves". I won't be surprised if the race is featured working alongside high elves in the future.

    This post is not intended to be either pro- or con-high elves. My personal desire is for them to be playable, but my reason says Blizzard has decided, at least for now, that they won't be, and tried to make void elves as a poorly-conceived but well-intended compromise. I think they'll try to improve on that compromise in the future to make it more appealing.
    For sure, I agree with all above but specifically about this last point. My post was merely intended to show that for right now the playable character Void Elves are all from Umbric's group, could that change in the future? Absolutely, but "more are being made right now" as having been said by others is currently wrong.

    That's pretty much my intention of sharing the broadcast text. Not merely to say that "High Elves are possible later" but merely that Void Elves and their lore aren't even considering High Elves at the moment at all, but yes I do see hints of them working together at some point in a greater capacity. As you stated, they don't see themselves as a different race, whether from Blood Elf or High Elf.

  2. #5882
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkrypt View Post
    Nah, you're just being reductive about the reasons given, and the situation at hand. It is exactly as I quoted. "Muh original Warcraft race". Why? Because they aren't happy with the compromise given. You think this is a seven layer lasagna, but it's only gas station pizza.

    *shrug* I stand firm in my belief that the players who continue to ask for them are just basically unable to accept the truth. You can pretend there's nuance to the situation, but there isn't.

    Flat out, there aren't enough High Elves to constitute a playable race. The race belongs to the Horde. They don't want to muddy the waters between the factions. <--- There's your nuance.

    Void Elves are their Thalassian-shaped Elves, and that's that.

    But by all means, keep pretending this is an issue that has more depth than it truly has. It boils down to players asking for something, being given a compromise, and they're unhappy with it.

    Pretty simple. I have been open to discussion, and I remain unconvinced.
    "No, you"

    Look, if you fail to see any more nuance on the issue, that's really your fault. Personally I have been very vocal about liking the High Elf lore particularly via the Silver Covenant and that I would have preferred if the Void Elves had been made about them. I care about Alliance High Elf lore first and foremost, but you keep responding as if I was someone that just wants "blonde blue eyed" elves. You aren't listening to me, I doubt you have listened to others as well.

    Flat Out, the population argument is bullshit by the way. Void Elves exists. Viable population is not a requirement to be an Allied Race -And no, you don't get to call it an exception- The faction muddying argument? Would like it more if it was cogent. We have Nightborne on the Horde, Void Elves on the alliance -who until 4 months they were Blood Elves- they don't muddy identity? More so, which is my my main issue, couldn't High Elves have given a nightborne OR Void Elf treatment? THAT would have been a compromise. People like you keep throwing the term around without even understanding what it means, or because you simply don't get that some people wanted High Elves because of their lore. Which brings is back to the point; you don't understand why people wanted High Elves; can you actually attempt to give a non biased list of the reasons people wanted HE on the first place?

    These are the criticisms I have, and I continue to have because they haven't been addressed. Issues that I will probably continue to talk about.

  3. #5883
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    On the frontline
    Posts
    5,383
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Yeah... and that's the attitude people are being critical of. "But Why" shouldn't be considered this naughty word, this is a discussion, a forum. We are talking about this.

    You don't have to be part of this discussion, but what's the point of coming here and just keep saying "you shouldn't be talking about this because daddy said no"

    Again, we can be critical of Blizzard choices, we all have been. But when it comes to accept the reasons why High Elves are an issue at all, so many of the loud anti voices are just ready to 100% agree with Blizzard, to call the other side childish and entitled and immature because that's easier to believe there are some valid reasoning at the core of it.
    I mean it's pretty fucken obvious they just want to shit on others discussing something they don't like and/or hoping for it to not be talked about so they can continue their pompous gloating. Otherwise why else go into a thread specifically made for discussion of one thing and keep trying to say stuff such as, "it's never happening get over it" "this thread still exists why?" etc etc.

    This is an elf thread, I love elves, I'm more interested in elf stories than most of the others WoW has to offer. Does that trigger these people? Boo hoo, so sad, they can go cry to their "daddy Ion"

  4. #5884
    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    Yeah. With their circumstances, I'm kind of imagining that they could serve as the base of a new race born from pieces of all the Alliance's cultures and such. Is there even an Elven word for Alliance? Or something thematically associated with them?
    Half Elves already started to been thrown as a concept way back on the War3 Alpha, Sylvanas model was basically just a reskined version of their Half Elven Ranger.

    It has been like 17 years since that, so we know the idea has been around for a while, and personally I would really love if it was revisited, beyond the idea of individual outcasts and more like a people forging an identity between two places, and how THAT people itself can be the legacy of the High Elves on the alliance. We already have literal representations of that with Giramar and Giraldin, and Arator.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    I mean it's pretty fucken obvious they just want to shit on others discussing something they don't like and/or hoping for it to not be talked about so they can continue their pompous gloating. Otherwise why else go into a thread specifically made for discussion of one thing and keep trying to say stuff such as, "it's never happening get over it" "this thread still exists why?" etc etc.

    This is an elf thread, I love elves, I'm more interested in elf stories than most of the others WoW has to offer. Does that trigger these people? Boo hoo, so sad, they can go cry to their "daddy Ion"
    People are allowed to say whatever they want, I ain't mad about that. But some things just aren't conductive to any sort of constructive discussion.

    I am concerned about discussing reasons and the why's, some people just want to come here to be right, and that is just not a discussion.

    The time for making arguments in favor of High Elves have passed, this is a post-mortem. There's no need to come here to say "the issue is dead"

  5. #5885
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    There's are several problems with the above statement.

    First, there's no canon source that outright says or shows a new void elf being created. The scholars studying the void may imply that, but it's an assumption. They may be learning about it in the same way Alleria did, which would mean future "void elves" would not look like playable void elves.

    Second, assuming more void elves are being transformed. We are not sure they can reproduce normally, and even if they do, the children will need time to grow up, and their starting population is just too low to sustain a society. They have to draw their numbers from high and blood elves. In essence, the best future the void elves can have is to absorb the high elves. So how do the population argument can favor them over high elves?

    Third, why would elves choose in mass to delve into a dangerous source of power that even the void elves themselves know it's too dangerous? I can imagine a few adventurous souls doing so for many reasons, but an entire population?

    Like you, I do think at some point Blizzard considered high elves and, at last moment, chose void elves instead. But, if so, Blizzard should be trying to show how cool and awesome void elves and the future plans for them are, not try to justify not using high elves with arguments that could very well apply to the void elves themselves.
    I appreciate your response.

    I don't want to spoil anything about BFA, but having played the Beta on the Alliance side to test out Dark Irons it seemed to me that we don't know everything about the Void Elves yet as of the Live game. Their numbers are definitely growing, is all I'll say. I don't know from where or how, or if it's Blizzard's wonderful Hollywood-style magic, but they are.

    I played the intro scene to the Void Elves just out of curiosity when they were released. I thought Telogrus was basically a factory for Void Elves? I see where you said there's no canon source that outright says more are being created, but are you sure? It sure seems like they are being created/converted around the clock, or at least, like you said, that's the implication.

    Some of my opinion is also based on my assumptions of what's going to occur in Battle for Azeroth. I think some of the events we don't fully know of yet you could also lend to their stance on High Elves. They have often said that they plan 1-2 expansions ahead of time. There could be a large story element that reinforces their stance that we, the players, just haven't seen yet.

    I think the population argument favors Void Elves over High Elves because it is a very safe presumption that more are being made. Some of the clues in the Beta indicate this beyond a shadow of a doubt. High Elves, for a many years now, have been known to have a dwindling population. I mean, since the introduction of the Blood Elves, their population was massively hurt, and only more have died since between the Sunreaver/Silver Covenant conflicts, wouldn't you say? Development will continue for the Void Elves because that's what Blizzard wants. And when it comes to wants and desires, what they want for their game trumps what a sector of fans want.

    I just don't believe Blizzard would take this position without good reason. I know their lore is not infallible, but it is theirs to make changes. I just don't think the average player has any authority to contest it, especially ones with a biased agenda. I have been told that's a wrong way to think, but to provide an example from when a very serious fan challenged George R.R. Martin about his works in Game of Thrones, I liked his reply. He simply said that: "Sometimes the world and all the creatures in it become so large and so intricate, that it is inevitable that some things are lost over the years." And I think that the fans, no matter how passionate they are, don't realize this sometimes.

  6. #5886
    Deleted
    Here is a High Elf I created with GIMP by combining human and blood elf death knight models. I added some war paint and bruises to make them look more primitive. I think they should look a bit rugged since they are cut off from the Sunwell. I wouldn't mind if Blizzard released an allied race called "Wild elves", based on the remaining High elves scattered around Azeroth and Outland.


  7. #5887
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    On the frontline
    Posts
    5,383
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    People are allowed to say whatever they want, I ain't mad about that. But some things just aren't conductive to any sort of constructive discussion.

    I am concerned about discussing reasons and the why's, some people just want to come here to be right, and that is just not a discussion.

    The time for making arguments in favor of High Elves have passed, this is a post-mortem. There's no need to come here to say "the issue is dead"
    Of course they are, but as you said coming here to state "being right" or "issue is dead" isn't conducive to a discussion.

    Most of those that do this aren't here to discuss anyway.

    But as long as they continue to not be reprimanded for it then they'll continue their pompous gloating.

  8. #5888
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    "No, you"

    Look, if you fail to see any more nuance on the issue, that's really your fault. Personally I have been very vocal about liking the High Elf lore particularly via the Silver Covenant and that I would have preferred if the Void Elves had been made about them. I care about Alliance High Elf lore first and foremost, but you keep responding as if I was someone that just wants "blonde blue eyed" elves. You aren't listening to me, I doubt you have listened to others as well.

    Flat Out, the population argument is bullshit by the way. Void Elves exists. Viable population is not a requirement to be an Allied Race -And no, you don't get to call it an exception- The faction muddying argument? Would like it more if it was cogent. We have Nightborne on the Horde, Void Elves on the alliance -who until 4 months they were Blood Elves- they don't muddy identity? More so, which is my my main issue, couldn't High Elves have given a nightborne OR Void Elf treatment? THAT would have been a compromise. People like you keep throwing the term around without even understanding what it means, or because you simply don't get that some people wanted High Elves because of their lore. Which brings is back to the point; you don't understand why people wanted High Elves; can you actually attempt to give a non biased list of the reasons people wanted HE on the first place?

    These are the criticisms I have, and I continue to have because they haven't been addressed. Issues that I will probably continue to talk about.
    But it's their lore that, in part, dictates why they aren't playable, right? They became Blood Elves. Those Blood Elves joined the Horde. In Blizzard's opinion, there are very, very few left. And that's true, you can't say there are many, can you?

    I'd like you to further explain how population is not a requirement when Blizzard says it is. What gives you the authority, or juice, so to speak, to make that claim? This is where I lose confidence in most of you. You make this claim, then you don't support it. The burden isn't on me to prove it. If you are going to lean on the Void Elves, remember, there are more being created in ways we don't completely understand. Battle for Azeroth shows us that rather early. So even though Void Elves may have started small, they appear to be exponentially growing. I don't consider the population of Void Elves on Live to be a precedent. Obviously Blizzard doesn't agree, and I agree with them over a biased fan twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. There's nothing inherently wrong with agreeing with Blizzard, either. It's not villainous or in poor taste.

    Do Void Elves being former Blood Elves muddy the lines? Perhaps a bit. I'm more confused about why Blood Elves would break ties with their faction to join Alleria, but I suppose that's in-part due to their rushed development. None of their story makes much sense. Would High Elves straight up tear down the faction wall? Yes, because Blood Elves are High Elves. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Void Elves are being portrayed as something entirely different. Do you disagree?

    What do you mean by High Elves being given a Nightborne treatment? I don't understand what you mean.

    I'm well aware what compromise means. It means players wanted one thing, Blizzard didn't see fit to bestow it upon you, so something close was given instead. A compromise is acceptance of a situation that wasn't necessarily the desirable one. They explained their reasons for this compromise, which was to protect the pride and identity of the Horde faction owning the Blood Elven race.

    Understanding why people wanted High Elves isn't really integral to this discussion. Why do I have to understand it? Why is that crucial to progressing this debate? I honestly can't give you an unbiased list of reasons for two reasons:

    1. I don't know, I'll admit. Most of the reasons provided in the 300+ pages of this thread aren't fully explained. They mostly revolve around the fantasy of the archetype of an elf, and the desire to RP as one.

    2. I'm biased. I find it in the unsavory type of persistence that you guys have been told no for almost ten years, yet you remain defiant to what you're being told.

    Not necessarily directed at you, Thunder, but:

    Because I play Horde, I am invested and perfectly allowed to defend our faction's stance on this matter within this forum. The title of the thread is "Official High Elf Discussion Megathread" and not "Official High Elf Echo Chamber". This isn't a designated safe space for those who support the Alliance trying to take a race that belongs to the Horde faction. As long as I adhere to the forum rules and guidelines, I'm within my right to post and discuss amongst you. If you don't like what I say, ignore me.
    Last edited by Enkrypt; 2018-05-17 at 07:00 PM.

  9. #5889
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Of course they are, but as you said coming here to state "being right" or "issue is dead" isn't conducive to a discussion.

    Most of those that do this aren't here to discuss anyway.

    But as long as they continue to not be reprimanded for it then they'll continue their pompous gloating.
    I mean, you're right! Just stating my approach, as I can't do anything about them tbh.

  10. #5890
    Pit Lord Sigxy's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Your heart!
    Posts
    2,299
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightvision View Post
    Here is a High Elf I created with GIMP by combining human and blood elf death knight models. I added some war paint and bruises to make them look more primitive. I think they should look a bit rugged since they are cut off from the Sunwell. I wouldn't mind if Blizzard released an allied race called "Wild elves", based on the remaining High elves scattered around Azeroth and Outland.

    That guy looks like he belongs in Skyrim with that hair & beard. o_o

  11. #5891
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkrypt View Post

    Because I play Horde, I am invested and perfectly allowed to defend our faction's stance on this matter within this forum. The title of the thread is "Official High Elf Discussion Megathread" and not "Official High Elf Echo Chamber". This isn't a designated safe space for those who support the Alliance trying to take a race that belongs to the Horde faction. As long as I adhere to the forum rules and guidelines, I'm within my right to post and discuss amongst you. If you don't like what I say, ignore me.
    The word from on high was that "Blood Elves are essentially High Elves". Essentially. It is true that all Blood Elves were High Elves before they renamed themselves. It however is also true that there are High Elves that never renamed themselves to Blood Elf. It is also true that there are Blood Elves that have been renamed as Void Elves.

    The Horde has all the rights to the Blood Elves. This is entirely accurate. That is what it says on the character creation screen "Blood Elf".
    The Horde is not entitled to all the High Elves. There are several scattered groups of High Elves and now Void Elves that are not allied with the Horde in any manner. Several of these are allied with the Alliance, and several of them have been since before the Blood Elves joined the Horde. The "Blood Elf" version of the High Elves belong to the Horde. That is where the faction line is drawn. What High Elf fans have been on about is to make some of the High Elves that are already in the Alliance, to be playable. That is all. They are already there, and have been there the whole time.

    The population argument made sense when part of the requirements to adding a race to the game was that they needed a Starting Zone or two. Allied Races have dropped that entirely. Plus there are several groups that, to be fair, should have less populations than even the High Elves, that are playable. Darkspear Trolls? Survivors of a single tribe that escaped on a ship? Draenei from the Exodar...another ship that crashed killing a bunch of the passengers. Lightforged Draenei fit that one as well. And of course Void Elves that start off as large research team. The population of the High Elves might be small, but they are still a percentage of an entire nation. Not a tribe. Not a ship full of refugees or a ship of warriors...a small part of an entire nation. At the extreme there should be as many High Elves as Darkspear Trolls (a small tribe of trolls to begin with...based on some Native America tribes....say somewhere between 500 and 2000 trolls).

  12. #5892
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkrypt View Post
    But it's their lore that, in part, dictates why they aren't playable, right? They became Blood Elves. Those Blood Elves joined the Horde. In Blizzard's opinion, there are very, very few left. And that's true, you can't say there are many, can you?

    I'd like you to further explain how population is not a requirement when Blizzard says it is. What gives you the authority, or juice, so to speak, to make that claim? This is where I lose confidence in most of you. You make this claim, then you don't support it. The burden isn't on me to prove it. If you are going to lean on the Void Elves, remember, there are more being created in ways we don't completely understand. Battle for Azeroth shows us that rather early. So even though Void Elves may have started small, they appear to be exponentially growing. I don't consider the population of Void Elves on Live to be a precedent. Obviously Blizzard doesn't agree, and I agree with them over a biased fan twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. There's nothing inherently wrong with agreeing with Blizzard, either. It's not villainous or in poor taste.
    That's the part I am being critical of, the logic behind this statement. Void Elves are playable, they are literally a group of scholars. The SC is a groupf of militant Dalaran High Elves, part of a populace that has existed for almost 2700 years. Form isn't following function if we are supposed to believe that VE are somehow MORE than even SC High Elves. The later have been represented for 4 expansions, with almost 50 named NPC's. There is such a clear disconnect between representation and number if VE are somehow more than HE, which given they background, it's just so very unlikely they are. "Blizzard said so" does not preclude from questioning their logic.

    VE are few and we don't have confirmation more can be created. So how can you claim the population argument has much validity when they exist? Everything about their Background contrasted even ONLY to the SC should logically make them fewer. Your logic is based on "they MUST be more if they are playable" which, again, isn't supported by any context or evidence. This is why the whole population thing doesn't really matter.


    Do Void Elves being former Blood Elves muddy the lines? Perhaps a bit. I'm more confused about why Blood Elves would break ties with their faction to join Alleria, but I suppose that's in-part due to their rushed development. None of their story makes much sense. Would High Elves straight up tear down the faction wall? Yes, because Blood Elves are High Elves. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Void Elves are being portrayed as something entirely different. Do you disagree?
    Then why weren't Void Elves made of High Elves? If aesthetic is what mostly muddy the lines, why don't make the HE be the VE? Loreweise HE are a distinct political and ideological faction, it isn't about the look for me, it's a about the lore behind. Also even if you dip a rose on blue ink it's still a rose, aesthetic differentiation is just a fraction of what corresponds to identity.

    What do you mean by High Elves being given a Nightborne treatment? I don't understand what you mean.
    They could have given HE either a digetic or non diegetic reason for looking different than Blood Elves (stance, body mass, etc) They could have played with the idea of Human/Elf hybridization on the Dalaran populace.
    I'm well aware what compromise means. It means players wanted one thing, Blizzard didn't see fit to bestow it upon you, so something close was given instead. A compromise is acceptance of a situation that wasn't necessarily the desirable one. They explained their reasons for this compromise, which was to protect the pride and identity of the Horde faction owning the Blood Elven race.
    People that wanted HE didn't get the lore they wanted as base, nor the aesthetic. This is not a compromise for people that wanted HE. Specially for those that wanted them for the lore. The "Horde's pride" could have been protected EVEN MORE if VE were given a Silver Covenant background, as they wouldn't have to loose MORE of its population. It's not even a bad compromise, is just not a compromise at all if you wanted a High Elf.

    Understanding why people wanted High Elves isn't really integral to this discussion. Why do I have to understand it? Why is that crucial to progressing this debate? I honestly can't give you an unbiased list of reasons for two reasons:

    1. I don't know, I'll admit. Most of the reasons provided in the 300+ pages of this thread aren't fully explained. They mostly revolve around the fantasy of the archetype of an elf, and the desire to RP as one.

    2. I'm biased. I find it in the unsavory type of persistence that you guys have been told no for almost ten years, yet you remain defiant to what you're being told.
    Understanding the reasons from the opposing side is integral to a discussion. You might not share them, but if you don't even try to understand them you are simply not having a discussion, just telling people they are wrong.

    Personally, I wanted High Elves because I liked their lore and their place on it through the Silver Covenant -a continued presence that has been going for almost 10 years without resolution- If I just want to be a pretty tolkien elf I'll play Horde. Also I believe that "ranger" themes introduced on War2 have been severely underused on the rest of the Elven races, so I would like one of them to pick that up.

    If we are told no, we can ask "why" and "but what about?"That's how it works. And I'm sorry, but I have not been given a satisfactory answer for many of my questions. I accept that HE won't be playable, I still want actually good answers for my questions, I still have criticisms about how things have been handled, from the fact that SCHE kept being used through the years for no reason, to Ion's dismissing of the issues raised. I want a better answer, not a "yes"

    Not necessarily directed at you, Thunder, but:

    Because I play Horde, I am invested and perfectly allowed to defend our faction's stance on this matter within this forum. The title of the thread is "Official High Elf Discussion Megathread" and not "Official High Elf Echo Chamber". This isn't a designated safe space for those who support the Alliance trying to take a race that belongs to the Horde faction. As long as I adhere to the forum rules and guidelines, I'm within my right to post and discuss amongst you. If you don't like what I say, ignore me.
    I play Horde too. This isn't a faction issue for me at all. It's about narrative. But I understand that for some people is, and I, as a horde player, don't actually want to dismiss every reason -and personally I was all about how to make BE and HE different enough- That's why I come here to engage in the discussion, to see both sides of it. This isn't an echo chamber because we don't agree with you, we don't all have the same opinions.

    You have to learn to accept people will disagree with you without throwing "echo chamber" accusations, and be more self critical about your own bias because if you keep basing your stance on the "wanting High Elves is wrong" mindset, you are not coming here offering anything to the discussion

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightvision View Post
    Here is a High Elf I created with GIMP by combining human and blood elf death knight models. I added some war paint and bruises to make them look more primitive. I think they should look a bit rugged since they are cut off from the Sunwell. I wouldn't mind if Blizzard released an allied race called "Wild elves", based on the remaining High elves scattered around Azeroth and Outland.

    Love the concept, but word of advice, using WoWhead gives you too many weird shadows! I recommend using the MMO-C model viewer instead for resources for edits as it gives you a far more flatter lightning.

    https://www.wowdb.com/items/97901-gr...s#model-viewer

    Back to the concept, while I personally I'm more of a Silver Covenant kind of guy, the Allerian High Elves are a pretty cool base with the through-line of the Warcraft 2 elves as an eminent alliance group form 23 years, cut away from the Sunwell and their kin.

    Which ties with my own personal view of Half Elves as my preferred scenario as the "legacy of the alliance High Elves"

  13. #5893
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkrypt View Post
    I appreciate your response.

    I don't want to spoil anything about BFA, but having played the Beta on the Alliance side to test out Dark Irons it seemed to me that we don't know everything about the Void Elves yet as of the Live game. Their numbers are definitely growing, is all I'll say. I don't know from where or how, or if it's Blizzard's wonderful Hollywood-style magic, but they are.

    I played the intro scene to the Void Elves just out of curiosity when they were released. I thought Telogrus was basically a factory for Void Elves? I see where you said there's no canon source that outright says more are being created, but are you sure? It sure seems like they are being created/converted around the clock, or at least, like you said, that's the implication.

    Some of my opinion is also based on my assumptions of what's going to occur in Battle for Azeroth. I think some of the events we don't fully know of yet you could also lend to their stance on High Elves. They have often said that they plan 1-2 expansions ahead of time. There could be a large story element that reinforces their stance that we, the players, just haven't seen yet.

    I think the population argument favors Void Elves over High Elves because it is a very safe presumption that more are being made. Some of the clues in the Beta indicate this beyond a shadow of a doubt. High Elves, for a many years now, have been known to have a dwindling population. I mean, since the introduction of the Blood Elves, their population was massively hurt, and only more have died since between the Sunreaver/Silver Covenant conflicts, wouldn't you say? Development will continue for the Void Elves because that's what Blizzard wants. And when it comes to wants and desires, what they want for their game trumps what a sector of fans want.

    I just don't believe Blizzard would take this position without good reason. I know their lore is not infallible, but it is theirs to make changes. I just don't think the average player has any authority to contest it, especially ones with a biased agenda. I have been told that's a wrong way to think, but to provide an example from when a very serious fan challenged George R.R. Martin about his works in Game of Thrones, I liked his reply. He simply said that: "Sometimes the world and all the creatures in it become so large and so intricate, that it is inevitable that some things are lost over the years." And I think that the fans, no matter how passionate they are, don't realize this sometimes.
    I only wished Blizzard was more forthcoming and had spent more time fleshing out void elves during and after their recruitment. Showing void elves actually being transformed in the starting Telogrus area would be welcome. A few extra gossip text and dialogues with NPCs with Telogrus would help a lot (just look how datamined Umbric's dialogue added more depth to them, despite answering so little).

    As a new addition, they don't need a lot of history, but they do need a lot of background. How it feels to be one of them (beyond just getting whispers)? How it changes your perspective on things? How do they transform other elves? Why would people chose to become void elves (aside from scholars interested in void in the first place)? Simple text would help a lot.

    Personally, I'd also have made some changes to their recruitment. Instead of just Alleria going to search Umbric, I'd put a cadre of Silver Covenant rangers and mages giving her support, and being transformed by accident with Umbric's people. THat alone would explain where the non-magic using ren'dorei come from, and would show actual high elves, with no interest in the void, being forced to cope with their new condition. This alone would give void elves more diversity from the start.

    As I wrote in some other places (mind you this is old text from before details of Alliance War campaign started to be found):
    If Blizzard really wants to stop the high elf controversy without making high elves playable, it should focus on promoting the void elves, not on giving reasons why they can't give us high elves.

    Void elves are poorly-thought, badly developed copouts, but they do have potential (and nothing else). I can think of many ways to make them more palatable to the high elf crowd without giving them high elf skins. The problem here is that people will be way more unwilling to give them a chance now than they were before velves were released (you can check it out: the high elf requests exploded after January 30th. Until then, most high elf fans were still hoping void elves would turn out to be good).

    The big problem is: everything points out to void elves being just a gimmick to allow players to be "Alleria-like elves" (while looking nothing like her). There's not a single interesting void elf interaction so far in BfA, all their cameos are just as some generic team of rangers following Alleria around. There's three void-related zones, plus a 4th one dealing with dark magic that may or may not be void, and yet you don't see a single void elf camp or interactable NPC. (I hear Umbric has a role in the Alliance campaign in Vol'dun and later becomes a follower, but I'm still waiting for details to judge it.)

    Void elves desperately need some depth. I say that Blizzard must:

    * Expand Telogrus Rift, putting events/gossip/interactions there that explain the basics of void elf lore (like the most obvious questions of them all: can new void elves be created? How are new ones transformed? Why are so many elves going there to become abominations tied to corruptive dark magic?)

    * Provide a proper core cast of void elf NPCs. At the very least, make a representative leader for each class. I'd take some known blood and high elf characters and turn them void elves. My choices would include Lyria Skystrider and Priest Ennas (the priests that try to preach against the Horde in Silvermoon), Summoner Nolric (only high elf warlock known), Taela Everstride (from Allerian Stronghold) and Theloria Shadecloak (from Allerian Post in Terokkar) as examples of elves I'd turn void to fulfill a core cast.

    * Make high and void elves have tied roles (much like Worgen/Gilnean are tied together, but only worgen are playable). Make the two races cooperate frequently, share camps, and sometimes buttheads among themselves. High and void elf lore would intermingle from now on, and be ultimately undivisible.

    * Put the void elves front and center of at least one major storyline in BfA. As the only Legion-related allied race that had no development in Legion, they really need immediate attention.

    Aside from all that, expanding void elf customization would be nice to try to draw in a wider range of personal tastes. I'm not talking normal skins here. Get some of the fan ideas behind high elf customization and apply to void elves. Personally, I think they need white-grey and white-purple (not bluish) skins. I'd give them more hair colors, like silver-blue, deep red, pitch black. And I'd give them warpaint, in colors such as red, blue and violet.

    These suggestions are the very same that have been circulating in forums since November 2017. If Blizzard had paid more attention to them, maybe all the high elf talk would have never gotten so out of hand.
    Whatever...

  14. #5894
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away
    Posts
    7,713
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkrypt View Post
    ...
    My argument hasn't changed, what has changed is your understanding of it. You like others have made a strawman assumption of the argument and when I don't argue that strawmanned position, you assume my point has changed. It's a lack of your understanding, not my argument. I have never argued Pro-High Elf, I have never argued they are likely to come, what I have argued is you are wrong to believe that Ion said never and closed the discussion. I have argued the faction wall isn't really a wall, it can be crossed and likely will be crossed as it has been crossed numerous times. Factions aren't just defined by the races they contain.

    I am not more condescending then you have been, you don't get to call out my poor behavior when you displayed no better and not be viewed a hypocrite. You only seem to pay attention when someone speaks down to you, so it seems the only real way to get your attention.

    You seem to have a lot of faith in Blizzard making something make sense. Maybe they'll play a role in a void expansion or whatever ... maybe they are just a flavor that appears here and there. As to why, it is because Allied Races are supposed to be a reward, giving a copy of a Horde Race to the Alliance but giving the Horde a cool twist isn't a fair system (this is something I agree with on why Velf over Helf). However, just because we have Void Elves now does not equate to never getting High Elves (that doesn't follow with any logic). For all we know, they maybe having rough plans for a "traitor" expansion down the line where they'll allow playable High Elves on the Alliance.

    Blood Elves DON'T belong to the Horde ... seriously, this isn't up for debate, it's a fact. You do know there are neutral Blood Elves right? Playable Blood Elves are Horde, but Blood Elves do not belong to the Horde. Valeera Sanguinar is neither Horde nor Alliance ... she's a Blood Elf ... the Scryers aren't Horde or Alliance ... what are they? Blood Elves ... the Blood elves literally do not belong to the Horde. The only Blood Elves that "belong" to the Horde are the Playable versions. The race doesn't belong to the Horde. The only race that, to me, "belongs" to any faction is Humans and that is honestly stretching that definition.

    If you are using "belongs to" as a synonym for playable ... that's just a pointless thing to say. Just say playable.

    Your stance HAS been dismantled ... it is just you dismiss any argument to the contrary, you haven't actually disproven anything of the Pro-Helfers. Your counters are "Doesn't count" or with Pandaren "that was a failure!"
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  15. #5895
    ...hear me out on this, boys and girls.

    What if the reason Blizzard elected to go with Void Elves (and not High Elves) wasn't because they were too similar, but because they're planning on finally pulling the trigger on Blood Elves joining the Alliance?

    This solves all issues of nuance in a single stroke.

  16. #5896
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    The north of Ireland
    Posts
    6,081
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    ...hear me out on this, boys and girls.

    What if the reason Blizzard elected to go with Void Elves (and not High Elves) wasn't because they were too similar, but because they're planning on finally pulling the trigger on Blood Elves joining the Alliance?

    This solves all issues of nuance in a single stroke.
    Fyersing I find it hard to respond to this suggestion. It doesn't make a lick of sense, especially given the context of Ion's answer that the Horde is waiting for you.

    The reason they went with Void Elves is because High Elves are identical to Blood Elves. That is all there is too it. People just tend to overthink this.

    But no, the Blood Elves aren't joining the Alliance, High Elves aren't becoming playable, and the Void Elves are the Alliance alternative.

  17. #5897
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    But no, the Blood Elves aren't joining the Alliance, High Elves aren't becoming playable, and the Void Elves are the Alliance alternative.
    Goes to show Blizz's limitless ignorance, considering they had no qualms with giving Pandaren to both.

  18. #5898
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Dreadfort, or Korriban. You never know.
    Posts
    20,441
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei Shi View Post
    Goes to show Blizz's limitless ignorance, considering they had no qualms with giving Pandaren to both.
    the only ignorance here would be yours, they already explained what they did)
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  19. #5899
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    My argument hasn't changed, what has changed is your understanding of it. You like others have made a strawman assumption of the argument and when I don't argue that strawmanned position, you assume my point has changed. It's a lack of your understanding, not my argument. I have never argued Pro-High Elf-- screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeech, womp, womp, womp, womp, womp, screeeeeeeeeeech.

    ...
    Got to the part where you said you weren't debating for High Elves and I figured the rest is TL;DR. Not really interested in the same old stale "I'm right, you're just too stupid to understand me" bullshit you keep spewing to everyone you quote. You're just here to satisfy your defeated ego. I'm here to discuss why the Alliance shouldn't have access to the Blood Elves that belong to the Horde faction as a playable race now.
    Last edited by Enkrypt; 2018-05-17 at 10:23 PM.

  20. #5900
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Fyersing I find it hard to respond to this suggestion. It doesn't make a lick of sense, especially given the context of Ion's answer that the Horde is waiting for you.

    The reason they went with Void Elves is because High Elves are identical to Blood Elves. That is all there is too it. People just tend to overthink this.

    But no, the Blood Elves aren't joining the Alliance, High Elves aren't becoming playable, and the Void Elves are the Alliance alternative.
    I feel like Blizzard needs to have Vareesa Windrunner killed, the Silver Covenant dissolved, and indicate that remaining high elves are joining their brethren because of significant disagreements with Alleria and her Ren'dorei.

    Give Blood Elves blue, green, and gold eyes and boom: problem solved.

    While I agree with your posts, I don't think their truths are demonstrated in-game as a whole. The political "High" Elves of the Silver Covenant are (in my mind) the sole reason this debate keeps raging. Blizz can easily put it to bed, and make something compelling with it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •