1. #5941
    Quote Originally Posted by JdRobespierre View Post
    If if it turns out to be true, that vampires will be using straight back undead model remake, not Blood Elf model reskin, neither Blood Prince NPC model as they do now, would you been waiting for explanations, too?
    The explanation would be that certain kinds of undead are mutated. The artists decided to elaborate on that mutation. We were only able to see a small portion of the Blood Prince faces, and we know that different levels of San'layn mutation exist. So it'd work, because a difference had already been set up.

    With High Elves and Blood Elves, we know there's no actual physical difference besides the eyes. We've been told this, and we can see it.

  2. #5942
    Officers Academy Prof. Byleth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    A group of Elves previously presented as identical to the Blood Elves suddenly changing to the degree described would definitely be immersion breaking and to deny that is just minimizing the consequences of your suggestions.
    To be fair, you just described Void Elves.

    If I recall, Alliance hate them and regularly refer to them as "ass-pulls".

    Hmmm... It's almost like you are right about skin tone suddenly changing

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    How would playable High Elves break immersion? That is really not making any sense. If it does break immersion, how did Void Elves apparently avoid this fate?
    They didn't - See above.
    Here is something to believe in!

  3. #5943
    Deleted
    Love how people conclude "Alliance hate Void elves" when it's by far the most popular allied race atm.

  4. #5944
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    High Elves cannot be portrayed differently from Blood Elves because both groups are the same and divided only by a political opinion. Void Elves are what Blizzard ended up with when they tried to differentiate a group of Blood/High Elves meaningfully from the rest of the group. They are the answer.
    This.

    As somebody who has advocated for playable High Elves for nearly a decade, it's always been quite clear that for them to be implemented they would have to become physically distinct from Blood Elves (in more ways than just eye color, or poise); and while Void Elves aren't likely to resonate with everybody, at least they've very clearly distinct from BE's (both visually and narratively).

    The giant question mark that looms above the head of each and every Void Elf is that if the intent was to create something as visually and culturally distinct from Blood Elves as possible, why was it decided that the narrative background of the Void Elves should be a hitherto unheard of splinter group of BE's instead of the historically well-known and well-received (among the Alliance playerbase) High Elves?

    If VE's were "the answer" to people wanting playable HE's, why are they 100% unrelated to HE's? This isn't a question aimed at you, just a rhetorical musing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    In which case, don't call them high elves, because at that point they aren't, just call them half elves and be done with it. People are obviously lenient when it comes to appearance and lore with this as long as they get their pretty fair skinned "Elf" on the Alliance.

    But the actual culture, the purest High elves? Those are still Horde.
    I took "Blood Elves are basically High Elves" to mean that BE's are the closest of the three iterations to what their society was pre-Third War. Not sure why this wouldn't be the case, or why anybody who wants High Elves would believe otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    Love how people conclude "Alliance hate Void elves" when it's by far the most popular allied race atm.
    Where are you finding this information? Genuinely curious, because I looked earlier and couldn't figure it out. >.<
    Last edited by Fyersing; 2018-05-20 at 03:03 AM.

  5. #5945
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    Where are you finding this information? Genuinely curious, because I looked earlier and couldn't figure it out. >.<
    http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php

  6. #5946
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    Has anybody verified this website is accurate or not? Because it's got the total count (for US and EU) as being 1,408,547 characters.

    Whereas https://realmpop.com/us.html has the count (with the same filters, but only counting the US) as being 39,412,728 characters.

    Edit: Oh, I see, WarcraftRealms is purging inactive characters from the list. Interesting.

  7. #5947
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    Has anybody verified this website is accurate or not? Because it's got the total count (for US and EU) as being 1,408,547 characters.

    Whereas https://realmpop.com/us.html has the count (with the same filters, but only counting the US) as being 39,412,728 characters.

    Edit: Oh, I see, WarcraftRealms is purging inactive characters from the list. Interesting.
    AFAIK, Realmpop uses public info from guild lists and auction houses to count population.
    It will be more accurate when BfA is available and people are leveling to 120, as alts/inactive characters will stay lower level.

    WarcraftRealms require you to use an addon in order to gather data. As such, it's way more limited.
    Whatever...

  8. #5948
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    AFAIK, Realmpop uses public info from guild lists and auction houses to count population.
    It will be more accurate when BfA is available and people are leveling to 120, as alts/inactive characters will stay lower level.

    WarcraftRealms require you to use an addon in order to gather data. As such, it's way more limited.
    I figured it was more accurate overall, but it currently doesn't seem to even show Allied Races. Shame.

  9. #5949
    Deleted
    Set it to 110 - 110 to get the true number, setting it at 20-110 obviously gives a higher number because people tried them but then stopped, Void Elves aint as popular as you're making them out to be. Take into account it's been 5 months since their inception into game so people who are sticking with the race even the most casual ones are lvl 110 by now easily, and even on that website you use it shows there are less Void elves than Worgan.
    Last edited by mmoce1827e55bd; 2018-05-20 at 07:09 AM.

  10. #5950
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Yet they have done many in game changes see BE AND HE models being changed from the prior NE version in most cases or Sylvanas.

    Your argument about in game changes is already proven to be false
    Not really. Everyone expected the Blood/High Elves to get a model upgrade in TBC because they were becoming a playable race and the previous model was a placeholder.

    The important point is that when Blood Elves got that new model, High Elves did too. And when Blood Elves got the upgrade, High Elves did too. This is unsurprising as both groups are in fact the same race. No attempt was made to differentiate the Blood Elves and High Elves beyond the High Elves having blue eyes.

    What is being suggested here is immersion breaking because it would drastically move High Elves away from Blood Elves, flying in the face of nearly a decade of consistent storytelling that the Blood Elves and the High Elves are the same race, in an attempt to pretend that High Elves are somehow different from Blood Elves.

    Void Elves ARE different from Blood/High Elves. They do not break immersion or lore because the process by which they changed was shown to us.

    These High Elf changes are an attempt to retcon the past decade, that High Elves all suddenly decided to wear different clothers, apply facial tattoos, sprout different hairstyles AND find out that all the darker skin toned elves happened to be kicked out of Silvermoon. It is a nonsensical approach, a transparent attempt to force a difference to justify an Allied race rather than an Allied race that arises naturally from the story of the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JdRobespierre View Post
    Which we seem to interpret totally different.
    I can quote Chris Metzen saying Blood Elves are Blizzard's twist on traditional High Elves.

    I can quote Ion Hazzikostas on two occasions saying Blood Elves are High Elves.

    This is not a matter of individual interpretation. Blood Elves are High Elves and so High Elves are playable.


    Quote Originally Posted by JdRobespierre View Post
    I don't think there is such thing like "correct" or "incorrect" when it comes to story interpretations... And even If it would be - it applies only as long, as they don't change mind on that matter, like on many things before.

    My views are just my views. I knowledge disagreement, however I am kind of person who would still rather speak loud, even if having disagreement with Judeo-Christian god. Unfortunately for You, these are views shared by thousands of people, who do not recognize Blood Elves, as High Elves.
    Yes, there are. If I were to say Arthas was never the Lich King and try to defend that as my opinion people would rightfully laugh at me. You cannot have a subjective opinion on a fact. A fact is immutable. Saying it's 'my opinion' that the fact is wrong does not validate your position or offer it some kind of standing, it places you at odds with reality. That 'thousands' share your view is also immaterial. A fact does not change because a lot of people think the fact is wrong. The world after all remains a globe despite the misgivings of the flat earth society.


    Quote Originally Posted by JdRobespierre View Post
    First - not all differences mentioned here were political, and some - like more frequent crossbreeding, mentioned even in game - have far more reaching outcome, than just political. Secondly - saying, that political differences can't have biological consequences would be untrue even in real world (division of Korea example), and in fantasy world is just silly, and was disproved few months ago, by that unfortunate accident, called Void Elves.
    Void Elves went through a magical process that granted them new skin tones and allowed them to sprout tentacles. It cut them off from the light based future awaiting the Blood/High Elves. This is why they are able to be an Allied race, there is a justified level of difference between them and the Blood/High Elves.

    Frequent cross-breeding may result in a race of Half Elves. That is not the point of this discussion and has no relevance to the topic at hand.



    Quote Originally Posted by JdRobespierre View Post
    Who told You I ever played Alliance?

    I loved Blood Elves once. When hey were introduced. Cause there was no similar elf in any other fantasy world. And calling them - then - " traditional tolkien style " would probably make audience laugh. However I can not stand devs destroying them, by making identical with High Elves anymore, without any objection. It is people who speak for reading them as identical, are those who actually harm them.
    The Blood Elf storyline as they were introduced with was a one way path to their doom. By the lore of the game, the fel ultimately destroys. The Blood Elves were always going to find a pure source of magic for their needs, else all they would ultimately face would be their addiction. And once the cure was found, was storyline or role should have been found for them? The obvious one, the one they played before, that of the traditional style High Elf.

    The plot of Elves dealing with forbidden magics has been repurposed with the Void Elves though. Maybe it has a longer term future than the Blood Elf plot.


    Quote Originally Posted by JdRobespierre View Post
    All the rest of the post is just repeating the same opinion in different ways as kind of spell, in case the summoning of the lord and the saviors name was not enough in this time to banish evil spirits. Well... I disagree as much times, as You repeat.

    And last, but not least - I absolutely have no feeling that this thread "failed".
    It rather showed already many possibilities of highlighting differences, and huge field for compromises


    Well, for me the case would be effective solved, cause lost. But I would still disagree, that such solution was the best one.
    This thread failed because it failed to convince anyone that High Elves could be differentiated from Blood Elves beyond those who wished to believe it was possible.

    The compromise for the Alliance was acquiring a variant of the thalassian elf model to play without having to go Horde.
    There is no need for a second compromise because the first one wasn't to your liking.

    You cannot please everyone after all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TotalSyn View Post
    To be fair, you just described Void Elves.

    If I recall, Alliance hate them and regularly refer to them as "ass-pulls".

    Hmmm... It's almost like you are right about skin tone suddenly changing
    .
    Remember, Void Elves had a narrative that explained the change. The presumption with the other suggestions is that we are being asked to pretend that High Elves in the Alliance have always been like this, with no justification whatsoever.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    snip
    As High Elves were the obvious base for an Alliance based race of thalassian elves, and given they have stated they have absolutely no intent to add a High Elf allied race, there are likely two solutions.

    Either the High Elves have a story role within BFA, maybe tied to this hypothetical attack on Silvermoon, or Blizzard felt nobody would believe that High Elves would be messing with dark magics.

    I suspect the former.

  11. #5951
    For your second point...I think it's because High elves not messing with Dark magics and refusing to sacrifice their moral integrity is exactly what set them apart from Belves and made them interesting. They were underdogs, but Alliance, and good.

    Which is kinda what I wanted from the race, that is the main reason I disliked Blood elves.
    Blood elves joined a faction that did so much damage to their home and that did morally questionable things sometimes. And became very morally questionable themselves, while the High elves remained in the Alliance and did their best to help, the Blood elves took to Fel and started keeping slaves, torturing people, desecrating tombs, etc.

    The Void elves are now using an even darker power, and unlike the Blood elves where you could opt out from using dark magic, you can't with Void elves.
    It's my biggest issue with them. They're the Anti-High elves.

    Had they made them into Arcane or Nature elves descended from High elves I wouldn't have minded that they weren't fair or blonde anymore.

  12. #5952
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    I figured it was more accurate overall, but it currently doesn't seem to even show Allied Races. Shame.
    The gray "unknown" region in both Race and Faction graphs are the allied races. Unfortunately, they still have not updated their algorithm to identify them.

    So, we know that, at level 110, all allied races combined are 2.7% of total population, but we have no per-race stats. Clicking on the "Unknown" region in faction graph, you can check their classes and take a few conclusions. We know for sure at least 10% of allied races are highmountain (Shaman + Druid), at least 8.2% are lightforged (paladins) and the combined elves are at least 23% (rogue + warlock).

    I've been checking it regularly since February, hoping they update their code to identify the races.
    Whatever...

  13. #5953
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    In which case, don't call them high elves, because at that point they aren't, just call them half elves
    Why? Are Tirasian called Half-Drust? Or they are just considered human?

    We seem to differ in interpretation, what is "purest" part of High Elven culture, and that's fine - for me it's not sucking magic, and/or fel, neither becoming sun elves, but rather those abandoned concepts. But If You consider Horde side after all this changes as "purest" - I won't be trying to change your mind. In fact, I don't believe game should straightly judge in such matter, rather letting players to disagree. I just propose rather equal share of motifs, so every player could stay in their interpretation, and story could go further in parallel way, or so called here "mirroring". I however proposed name Forest Elves, as compromise, if admitting that Blood Elves changed their way of living bothers You so much.

    But You know what? Introducing them under the name Half-Elves would be for me compromise, even if not preferable solution, if Blizzard chose to do so - only if more classical aesthetic were preserved.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    With High Elves and Blood Elves, we know there's no actual physical difference besides the eyes. We've been told this, and we can see it.
    I was not writing only about strictly biological differences, as justification for the change, here. But we actually got already hint about one from Elisande speech in game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I can quote Chris Metzen saying Blood Elves are Blizzard's twist on traditional High Elves.
    I believe You can quote, however I don't believe You can understand. "Twist", implementation, artistic interpretation, or in fact just loose inspiration - for sure - but used to write something new, change accents etc. Effect in TBC era was still one of the most original.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    A fact is immutable
    In the real world. And we are arguing about recognizing identity of two attempts of implementation some concept in the work of culture. There is no facts here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The Blood Elves were always going to find a pure source of magic for their needs, else all they would ultimately face would be their addiction. And once the cure was found, was storyline or role should have been found for them? The obvious one, the one they played before, that of the traditional style High Elf.
    And You really don't see, that it is actually just personal storytelling preference, that You defend here all the time? The one with happy ending, the one with redemption for everyone waiting right behind the corner, and with actions taken to survive having no irreversible consequences. Childish, flat and uninteresting one, losing all their dept and tragism, and taking all character from them. Destroying with time all their moral ambivalence and pragmatism - all that was best TBC invention.

    The one I passionately hate, just as much, as You are holding to it. My assumption, that they never in fact meant to be like You said, and this story outcome is actual destruction of their concept, and cowardly way of storytelling, taken to get sympathy of more naive storytelling tastes, is actually as valid as yours. Voices complaining about total wasting Kael as a character, make me sure, that I'm not alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The plot of Elves dealing with forbidden magics has been repurposed with the Void Elves though.
    So You in fact admit, that Void Elves are part of the Blood Elf story going further, and not High Elf story, so there are obvious reasons, for them to not being recognized as High Elves for those, who do not recognize Blood Elves as High Elves? Thanks for that note.

    They would be "compromise" if assumption that all Alliance players want is "thalasian model with blue eyes" was true. It was however in fact false, and failed attempt to recognize expectations. Well - it happens. In time, Blizzard will have to evaluate this attempt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    anyone
    You are not everyone here. And it is in fact not up to You, to make summary.
    Last edited by mmoc5cb4a68957; 2018-05-20 at 01:32 PM.

  14. #5954
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    I figured it was more accurate overall, but it currently doesn't seem to even show Allied Races. Shame.
    Yeah, warcraft realms is more accurate atm imo. Realm pop is not up to date.

    The sample of WR is big enough to be representative.

  15. #5955
    Why is this still going? It. Is. Not. Going. To. Happen. Let it die.

  16. #5956
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Alystria View Post
    Set it to 110 - 110 to get the true number, setting it at 20-110 obviously gives a higher number because people tried them but then stopped, Void Elves aint as popular as you're making them out to be. Take into account it's been 5 months since their inception into game so people who are sticking with the race even the most casual ones are lvl 110 by now easily, and even on that website you use it shows there are less Void elves than Worgan.
    No one said anything versus other races. Void elves are by far the most popular allied race, even at 110, being double of what the second most popular allied race is (nightborne). Therefore comments that say "Alliance hates void elves" are big steamy pile of poo.

  17. #5957
    Quote Originally Posted by JdRobespierre View Post
    Why? Are Tirasian called Half-Drust? Or they are just considered human?

    We seem to differ in interpretation, what is "purest" part of High Elven culture, and that's fine - for me it's not sucking magic, and/or fel, neither becoming sun elves, but rather those abandoned concepts. But If You consider Horde side after all this changes as "purest" - I won't be trying to change your mind. In fact, I don't believe game should straightly judge in such matter, rather letting players to disagree. I just propose rather equal share of motifs, so every player could stay in their interpretation, and story could go further in parallel way, or so called here "mirroring". I however proposed name Forest Elves, as compromise, if admitting that Blood Elves changed their way of living bothers You so much.

    But You know what? Introducing them under the name Half-Elves would be for me compromise, even if not preferable solution, if Blizzard chose to do so - only if more classical aesthetic were preserved.

    I was not writing only about strictly biological differences, as justification for the change, here. But we actually got already hint about one from Elisande speech in game.
    Sure, a mixed elf race could easily work, but it couldn't be retroactively applied to the majority of extant High Elven characters. Vereesa is Sylvanas's sister, after all.

  18. #5958
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    No one said anything versus other races. Void elves are by far the most popular allied race, even at 110, being double of what the second most popular allied race is (nightborne). Therefore comments that say "Alliance hates void elves" are big steamy pile of poo.
    While I am not into ultimate claims as what is the MOST popular, Void Elves are certainly not hated and are played a lot. It's a bunch of baloney to say "Alliance hates Void Elves".

    It's a great model, great looking melee swings and looks awesome in tier armors. Hated? Not even close.

  19. #5959
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    Yeah, warcraft realms is more accurate atm imo. Realm pop is not up to date.

    The sample of WR is big enough to be representative.
    How can a website that requires its users download an addon and upload data in order to be represented (Warcraft Realms) be more up to date/accurate than a website that continually pings characters who use the AH/Guilds that use the AH with no addon required nor input needed from players other than using the AH (Realmpop) ???

    That makes no sense at all. Warcraft Realms also shows Alliance leading in population over Horde by a 1.3:1 ratio but we know that is bullshit and that there are more overall population of players currently playing Horde than Alliance and it's skewed in Horde's favor. This is supported by both Realmpop and WoWprogress.

    WarcraftRealms has a shitty method to show census data and I still can't believe some are saying or touting it as "more accurate than Realmpop." All WarcraftRealms shows is that most of its users play Alliance.

    Edit: More evidence to prove that WarcraftRealms is bullshit - Look at the column to the right showing "All Guilds" it's all Alliance and WarcraftRealms lists it as "Top 50 Guilds by level value" proving my point even more that it's an Alliance biased website.

    WarcraftRealms is just trash all around.
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2018-05-20 at 04:59 PM.

  20. #5960
    Deleted
    I would prefer Vereesa to die in the elven civil war, sorry for that And Silver Covenant act just as connector between Alliance, and new ranger-themed population with changed lifestyle, as I already mentioned. So those are not my primary concerns.

    Moreover that's minor problem for me, as I don't consider biological change to be necessary and only, but rather secondary explanation of model updates. If You think, that biological change is the only reasonable motif, of model upgrade, then we have no easy way, other maybe than operating on two models, as Tirasian population. However i still consider modern Blood Elf model not to be accurate, to what High Elf should look, after all - I still see it also as possible way of highlighting different thematically atmosphere, temperament, and behavior -

    http://media.moddb.com/images/downlo..._in_battle.jpg
    https://orig00.deviantart.net/e2ab/f..._by_hikzbr.jpg

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