Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Syegfryed]

what about a better concept idea:

no more fucking elves

there is no pics because no more goddam elves

[KyrtF]

This hinges completely on what happens in BfA. If the HE destiny isn't Annihilation, it will most likely be Assimilation into the VE and those HE's that doth protest will most likely return "home". If by the end of BfA HE's are still around I'll concede it a possibility, but right now it's highly unlikely.



Changing the model; outside of eye color variances and skin variance, would make them seem as something they are not. Again as Ion has said BE's are HE's and HE's are essentially BE's minus the fel corruption.



I'm sorry, but uncomfortable social changes and treatment/s do not necessitate physical changes. What the VE's and BE's suffered through, sure.. HE's not so much.

Don't be so daft. a different model does not signify a "physical" change.

A different model is acceptable when it comes to Orcs and Trolls and Tauren...but not when it comes to High Elfs?

A High Elf with a different model will still be a High Elf for the simple reason the game says it is.

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This hinges completely on what happens in BfA.

No...it doesn't. If Blizzard wiped out the High Elfs this would not only be a huge display of sheer spite towards the Alliance...especially now, especially after the Horde got so much of what we asked for...but it would simply shift the debate to time travel abd alternate universes and how there would be survivors in Outland who could form the basus of a High Elf faction.

The only way to stop the debate is to give the Alliance the damn and blasted High Elfs. Otherwise they'll just keep asking for it.

[Andromedes]

what about a better concept idea:

no more fucking elves

there is no pics because no more goddam elves

i agree, lets remove void elves and replace them with high elves

[Danuel]

So sweet. Allys still want to have "pretty" elves.

[OreoLover]

Not a fan of this concept, in WoW implementation.

While the faction conflict situation exists, I prefer races to be more visually distinct between factions.

I would be happy to see it if the conflict barrier were removed.

[Deleted]

There is literally no difference between BE's and HE's; beside eye color, that would necessitate any change in model. And you're trying to suggest I'm being daft?

There is literally no difference between Stormwind Humans and Kul'Tiras humans, yet there are different Kul'Tiras human models. Same way High Elves could get different models - different enough from Blood Elves, not different enough to still be High Elves. Unless of course you believe that all Thalassian Elves in lore have exact same bodies the way the do in the game.

[Lumineus]

Try lifting for 20 years after being a couch potato for two thousand and see what happens to you?

Not to mention some of these guys have been expats for a LOT longer than 20 odd years. Going to live in dwarven lands is basically giving elf society the finger.

[Lumineus]

Obviously bodybuilding is a bit of an exaggeration, but I think you'd be surprised what effect a couple of decades worth of conscientious choice to not use magic for frivolous things like telekinetically rearranging the living room furniture because withdrawal is still fresh in memory could have.

[Deleted]

And yet from what we've seen, Kul'Tiran humans are naturally taller and thicker than normal humans, most likely brought on by a life of sailing. And they've lived there for how long?

Now, how long have HE's lived in Stormwind after the HE/BE split? What.. 20-ish years.

Eh, no, from the fact that most Kul'Tirans are exactly the same as Stormwind Humans and that only few of them are bigger, they are not naturally taller and thicker than normal humans. The bigger bodies of some is only a result of their lifestyle at the moment.

[Fyersing]

Changing the model; outside of eye color variances and skin variance, would make them seem as something they are not. Again as Ion has said BE's are HE's and HE's are essentially BE's minus the fel corruption.

This statement doesn't jive well with how variable any given population can become, especially when under duress. These people are all biologically identical:



A biological distinction doesn't have to exist for a population to self-express in entirely different ways.

It wouldn't be shocking to the senses if the HE's, having shifted their collective priorities away from magical ability and towards combat proficiency, present as being more physically robust than their kinfolk-in-red -- more fully cultivated by strenuous physicality. This militarism, in conjunction with a necessity to maintain allegiance with the Alliance, could easily be cited as explanation for the motivations of the HE's having clearly deviated (this process become more rapid recently) from venerating the creations (i.e. things, like Silvermoon or Sunwell) to exalting the creators (i.e. themselves, whatever they create going forward).

A model which is structurally similar, but more pragmatically athletic, and a culture which has chosen to distance themselves from things they had no part of (instead of retroactively laying claim to the achievements of their ancestors) -- on paper, this is strikingly different from Blood Elves (and Void Elves, who present as being BE's without common sense).

[Syegfryed]

This statement doesn't jive well with how variable any given population can become, especially when under duress. These people are all biologically identical:

bu you are ocmpring apeople distant of normal humans from 2700 years, with a lot of generation nd even maybe with dust magic influence

elves had 10- years, with no new genrations to look different. they are the same and should look the same

and being realistic, if they don't look exactly like BE people from both sides will complain, one because it look like what they want, and the other because the model was too good

[Arcene]

I had hoped for at least one not horribly ugly race on horde to be druids as well, but if not for some perceived lore reasons, blizzard did surely scrap any notion of that by half-assing nightborn to push them out the door as fast as possible (see customization options..) to release them with the other allied-races.

Off-topic I know but can you imagine their forms? Mana-saber and whatnot with their typical Nightborne glow and tattoos? It would be glorious.

On-topic on the whole talking about when the split should have happened I mean we have several thousand years to play with. The Troll Wars ended 2,800 years before the Dark Portal (Unless they changed that it's possible the lore seems as inconsistent as Tyrande's characterisation at this point) so if you do it anywhere after that you have a population of High Elves who still think Humans are pretty rad. You just need to some how take a snap shot, put em somewhere else and then pull em out of the fridge in the present day with a different appearance due to separation or a magical mcguffin.

High Elves a la Nightborne since that's the same plot device but how many times have Blizzard pulled that at this point? ... well 2 I think but beside the point. may as well go for a hat-trick.

[Obelisk Kai]

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But none of this matters.

That's the problem with this topic, and something I am guilty of too, over-elaboration. We go up and down so many rhetorical rabbit holes, we focus on the more inane and pointless details of the game's lore, that we lose sight of the big picture.

In the end, this boils down to something very simple.

The Alliance won't be getting High Elves because Blizzard thinks High Elves are already playable as Blood Elves (and if we want to elaborate just a tad, they gave Void Elves to the Alliance as a way of letting them play a thalassian elf that wasn't identical to a Blood Elf). It is as simple as that.

Everything else discussed from population to models to narrative, the majority of it is irrelevant.

For many years, those who have sought playable Alliance High Elves have striven to find some point of substantial differentiation between the two groups. Are there differences? Yes. But they have proven to be so extraordinarily minor. In fact, ask a lay person in game what the difference between an Alliance High Elf and a Horde Blood Elf is and they will mention one of two things. Either the faction they are on or the eye colour.

When it came to Blizzard finally giving the Alliance a thalassian elf model, Blizzard provided their own spin to differentiate them from the Blood Elves.

Ask a lay person about Void Elves, and they will know they are shadowy elf who used to be a Blood Elf and has weird void powers. While many complain the Void Elves came out of nowhere, they already cut a more substantial profile in game compared to an Alliance High Elf. They have a hook of their own to build on.

[Garfurion]

And yet from what we've seen, Kul'Tiran humans are naturally taller and thicker than normal humans, most likely brought on by a life of sailing. And they've lived there for how long?

Now, how long have HE's lived in Stormwind after the HE/BE split? What.. 20-ish years.

The size difference between the Kul Tirans model and standard human model cannot be the result of living conditions and Kul Tiras has never been really isolated. The Dutch went from a short people (on average) to the tallest (on average) in +- 100 years but the difference between them and neighboring countries is still relatively small.

In Warcraft 3 Night-Elf archers used the same model and animations as Blood/High-Elves and in vanilla all Night/High and Blood-Elves used the same model and Blood Elves had red eyes. All that changed in the blink of an eye the moment TBC launched. Void Elves suddenly developed different hair styles after their transformation. Wildhammer Dwarves should be taller and leaner than Bronzebeard Dwarves yet this is not (yet) reflected in game.

10-20 years of different environments could have an effect both physical (e.g. more/less muscular/fat) or cultural (hair-styles). High Elves in Stormwind might have had access to better food&healthcare compared to Blood Elves fighting to regain Silvermoon and depending on Forsaken aid.

Whether this potential difference is enough to warrant an updated model is for Blizzard to decide. They tend to adapt the lore to suit the gameplay and so far it has been convenient for High Elves to use reskinned copies of Blood Elven resources (characters and building) while e.g. the Lodges resemble Night-Elven buildings since they were introduced in vanilla.

[Fyersing]

I still doubt that would happen. HE's; or Elves in general, tend to be more stubborn than most, a prime example of that being HE's unwillingness to do what BE's did and siphon life from lesser creatures. I doubt they'd make a movement in giving up magic, something they've delved into for centuries if not millennia.

What I posited was that it's clear High Elves have collectively deprioritized magic, not that they've abandoned it. As the overwhelming majority of High Elves, in-game, are styled as Rogues/Warriors/Hunters this isn't really something that can be doubted -- it's simply the reality.

bu you are ocmpring apeople distant of normal humans from 2700 years, with a lot of generation nd even maybe with dust magic influence

elves had 10- years, with no new genrations to look different. they are the same and should look the same

This is an irrelevant, non sequitor to the point made.

There are traits which are biological in nature, which cannot be changed via cultural behaviors/lifestyle choices (i.e. height, pigmentation for eyes, hair, and skin). There are also traits which aren't biological in nature, which can be changed via cultural behaviors/lifestyle choices (i.e. muscle mass, hair styles, temperment, etc.).

It's entirely reasonable that after 11-years of hard living, High Elves would generally be more physically rugged and poised much differently than the Blood Elves.

This is what happened when this guy spent 5 years living harder than he had before:
http://cairogyms.com/wp-content/uplo...odybuilder.jpg

This is what happened when this guy spent 9 years living harder than he had before:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/gGwKpqWI9CQ/maxresdefault.jpg

The Alliance won't be getting High Elves because Blizzard thinks High Elves are already playable as Blood Elves (and if we want to elaborate just a tad, they gave Void Elves to the Alliance as a way of letting them play a thalassian elf that wasn't identical to a Blood Elf). It is as simple as that.

I have to nitpick, because I see this mistakenly touted all over the place. The exact wording that Ion Hozzikostas used was as follows:

"Spoiler's guys, Blood Elves are pretty much High Elves. Void Elves are also pretty much another flavor of High Elves."

The context suggests that he's using "High Elves" in a historical sense -- the meaning of his statement, then, being that Blood Elves are the modern cultural body which most adequately fulfills the fantasy of the "traditional High Elves". Similarly, Void Elves are a re-flavoring of these "traditional High Elves" (which makes sense, because they're former Blood Elves).

He doesn't speak at all to subject of "modern High Elves", except for the addendum that follows the above statement wherein he mentions that the HE's are being assimilated into other groups (which nobody concedes, except @Northem).

So when people say, "High Elves are Blood Elves", they're both inverting the meaning of Ion's statement and ignoring political reality in favor of generalized categorization. It's not really different from saying, "North Koreans are South Koreas", unironically.

When it came to Blizzard finally giving the Alliance a thalassian elf model, Blizzard provided their own spin to differentiate them from the Blood Elves.

Ask a lay person about Void Elves, and they will know they are shadowy elf who used to be a Blood Elf and has weird void powers. While many complain the Void Elves came out of nowhere, they already cut a more substantial profile in game compared to an Alliance High Elf. They have a hook of their own to build on.

I agree that Void Elves are unique and interesting, relative to the rest of the Alliance. Their cultural footprint aside, doesn't it seem peculiar that Blizzard would set out to create a group entirely distinguishable from Blood Elves... by creating a new group comprised of Blood Elves (when they're fully aware that a political schism had existed between Blood Elves and High Elves for a decade)?

It's also somewhat peculiar that fans of Blood Elves are adamant that implementing playable High Elves, in that "copy/paste" fashion seen throughout the forums, would be an affront to Blood Elves -- but somehow Void Elves are acceptable.

The differences between High Elves and Blood Elves, even if we hypothesize them to be "copy/paste" High Elves, would've included visual distinctions (albeit, perhaps only partially) and cultural distinctions; the differences between Void Elves and Blood Elves are limited to visual divergences. I fail to see how this is a better compromise -- we literally have Blood Elves on the Alliance, you'd think this would be more of an affront to those who genuinely enjoy the Blood Elves, narratively.

[Syegfryed]

This is an irrelevant, non sequitor to the point made.

i don't think so, you re trying to say one being is different from another sure, but ingame models are the same, they will not look different even if they make sense, same with orcs and humans being different but you have only one model

the elves didn't pass trough hard times, or other thing to change then psychically compared to the Blood elves, especially the silver covenant ones

it would only make sense if the wretches ( is that the name?) would be playable

[Fyersing]

i don't think so, you re trying to say one being is different from another sure, but ingame models are the same, they will not look different even if they make sense, same with orcs and humans being different but you have only one model

The fact that both humans and orcs, each group being genetically singular, have been shown to be highly variable suggests this isn't actually a hurdle.

[Syegfryed]

The fact that both humans and orcs, each group being genetically singular, have been shown to be highly variable suggests this isn't actually a hurdle.

they have a reason to be highly variable, unlike the elves, and those turmblr fanfiction are not helping to change that

[Fyersing]

they have a reason to be highly variable, unlike the elves, and those turmblr fanfiction are not helping to change that

A general shift in cultural values, prioritizing combat proficiency above magical ability, is the reason.

The BE's might generally sit somewhere around 2007/2008 in the provided image, owing to their cultural preference for magical prowess; whereas HE's, having generally become more prone to physicality, would reasonably land somewhere between 2011 and 2015.

[Syegfryed]

A general shift in cultural values, prioritizing combat proficiency above magical ability, is the reason.

and when they did that? like never?

silver covenant elves still suck mana and are mages

and there are blood elves who priorize combat proficiency above magical ability, thats why they have warrior and hunters like the farstriders

there is no logical reson