Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

And I would 100% join you on that quest - If you were willing to totally drop existing High Elves as a playable race. They are the same race as Blood Elves, end of.

I am very happy to help contribute to a the creation of a distinct, new race though

Can we just say Half Elves?

Also I disagree that the game needs a classic High Elf race. Blood Elves are the classic High Elf race, that's their thing, particularly after the healing of the Sunwell stopped the mana vampire theme.

[Byleth]

Can we just say Half Elves?

Also I disagree that the game needs a classic High Elf race. Blood Elves are the classic High Elf race, that's their thing, particularly after the healing of the Sunwell stopped the mana vampire theme.

Come on man. These guys have been working very hard in at a hopeless task for so long. Even I want to give them a bone at this point.

I can at least agree with them that there is a lack of a good classical high elf archetype in the Alliance. It should just never be the high elves as the are in game currently.

I think half elves could be a very fair compromise.

[Deleted]

I already stated here few times, that obedience is no virtue for me. I never, ever "live with" things.

And why to drop them, when they can just be developed? When they have already popularity? Catch much of the audience attention? There is even no need to advertise "High Elf" banner. During that development answering for players nostalgia can be in fact achieved as well, as need of distinction and uniqueness.

They are the closest match to classic elves niche. They just need a story pushing them further - one of proposals of stories about finding new home, or dealing with consequences of refusing to use controversial magical practices, or finding their balance in some similar way Nightborne had. They just need highlighting changes in lifestyle, appearance, behavior. Creating some new settlements - as I proposed here many times, changing architecture style to some point, as many of them would be now exiles, or refuges forced to hide themselves. This solution have strong advantages - is strongly rooted in existing story, allows to keep close parallel storytelling between them and Blood Elves, and so - keep the tension. keep players focused. Many existing ideas can be integrated in good solution - like for example more frequent crossbreeding can be secondary explanation of new appearance etc.

I'm writing mostly about groups like Elves allying themselves with Wildhammer Dwarves, rather than Silver Covenant, as I see them much more promising both in storytelling, and in addressing to request of classical elf.

Creativity is not an art of making assputs, but rather and art of reusing and rearranging existing motifs in unexpected, and surprising ways.

As far as I know Blizzards way of introducing races - requests for High Elves and Half Elves will be integrated and merged anyway. Cause it was never their preferable way, to introduce just half-breeds under open banner.

stopped the mana vampire theme.

I strongly hope, that Alleria and Umbric will force them to return to that theme

[Obelisk Kai]

Come on man. These guys have been working very hard in at a hopeless task for so long. Even I want to give them a bone at this point.

They have been working hard. But as I have said before they are attempting to reinvent the wheel, and given Ion's comments the only way they can succeed is to reinvent the wheel in such a way that the resulting wheel is NOT round. That is of course a contradiction.

I can at least agree with them that there is a lack of a good classical high elf archetype in the Alliance. It should just never be the high elves as the are in game currently.

I think half elves could be a very fair compromise.

There is a lack of a High Elf archetype in the Alliance. There is also the lack of a Zombie archetype, an Orc archetype, a Minotaur archetype, a Goblin archetype and a Troll archetype. The lack of an archetype does not mean the gap has to be filled. The ABSENCE of certain archetypes is as important to what defines a faction as what is present. Having said that, Half Elves COULD be the answer. But I am unsure if Blizzard wants to go in that direction, maybe if Arator gets a unique model at some point.

- - - Updated - - -

I strongly hope, that Alleria and Umbric will force them to return to that theme

That will not happen. The dichotomy between light based Blood Elves and Void based Void Elves dovetails too neatly with the upcoming light versus shadow conflict to be discarded so easily and before it even had a chance to be developed as a story thread.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I strongly hope, that Alleria and Umbric will force them to return to that theme

Just as people hope Lor'themar beheads both Umbric and Alleria infront of the gates of Silvermoon.


Everyone has unrealistic desires.

[Deleted]

Well, You clearly see folks, that conflict between Thalasian elven factions catches attention instantly, and so - It would not be wise from Blizzards perspective to let it into oblivion xD

There is also the lack of a Zombie archetype

This one is going to be solved soon

an Orc archetype, a Minotaur archetype, a Goblin archetype and a Troll archetype.

Thing is - part of classic elf archetype, as I (and many other people) understand it, is to stay allied with Humans and Dwarves. And as much as I love Blood Elves - I rather could not say, they deal with that part well

Best solution in my opinion, is to differentiate from existing High Elves those, who will not be willing to follow Alleria's path to the end, as they were not willing to suck magic from living creatures before, and give them story about finding new ways, slightly turned in favor of nature, reusing some WC2 concepts (to address nostalgia), use some proposed here bronze skins - as consequence of either new lifestyle, crossbreeding, or their own balance searchings in other way. Use Silver Covenant just in recruiting scenario.

That story would in fact strongly follow path of Tolkien elves - who after destruction of Beleriand, become forced to search new settlements, hidden in forests, mountains or underground, between their less noble relatives. And such - it is classic to the core.

What does in fact stop us, from supposition, that there might be exist some unknown refuge camps in all that empty mountains of Eastern Kingdoms, during reigns of Scourge and Horde, now rediscovered after Alliances offensive?

[ninthbelief]

An analogy for what High Elf fans want would be in terms of customer-company relations:

A nation wide company sells a product to half the nation on one form. Advertises that form in the other half of the country with a slightly different label, but doesn't actually sell it in that part of the county. Consumers in that part of the country ask if they can have the product, and the company says no. If you want that product you need to move to the other side of the country. When asked why, they say its a regional thing only. "Even with the different labeling you advertise it under?" The company says that is basically the same thing, but you have to move to get it.

Years later people are still asking for that product to be sold in their half of the country. The new marketing campaign says they'll sell something like it soon. The people are excited by this prospect. When the product arrives, it is the same general look of the product. The labeling is blue and tastes entirely different. "This isn't want we were asking for." Its basically the same thing, but doesn't taste at all like the product sold in the other half of the country, and its also blue, yet the rest of the packaging and look of the item is the same. When asked again why they can't just have the product, they are told its region only and told to move to the other side of the country or just live with the blue product that tastes nothing like the product is suppose to taste.

Customer relations. Now, is this a company failure to understand the consumer? Is this a consumer failure to understand some vague regional reasoning for them not to be able to have said product? There isn't a law in place making it illegal or anything. Its just that the other region thinks it a staple of their region and they don't want to dilute "their" product by letting the other region have it.

That's my take of this issue.

Your analogy is close, but you forgot a bit at the beginning where the product had been advertised for years on one side of the country, just never sold -- THEN it's added to the other side, and continously advertised on the former for years.

When the product comes out, it's also as far away from the initially advertised product physically possible while still maintaining to be the same kind of product.

Again, I don't hate Void Elves, but they will become a lot more beloved after we get the High Elves that Blizzard have been dangling in fronst of us for years and years.

Also, as far as this topic goes about Blizzard just using High Elves as the Alliance opposite of Blood Elves -- that's literally the point of BFA.

[Obelisk Kai]

Well, You clearly see folks, that conflict between Thalasian elven factions catches attention instantly, and so - It would not be wise from Blizzards perspective to let it into oblivion xD

Which is why the Alliance has Void Elves. Playable High Elves are completely unnecessary to further the plot between the Void Elves and the Blood Elves. But the Void Elf-Blood Elf plotline will work best with the Blood Elves being underpinned by the holy light which is why speculation they may lose the Sunwell is almost certainly in error.

Thing is - part of classic elf archetype, as I (and many other people) understand it, is to stay allied with Humans and Dwarves. And as much as I love Blood Elves - I rather could not say, they deal with that part well

Best solution in my opinion, is to differentiate from existing High Elves those, who will not be willing to follow Alleria's path to the end, as they were not willing to suck magic from living creatures before, and give them story about finding new ways, slightly turned in favor of nature, reusing some WC2 concepts (to address nostalgia), use some proposed here bronze skins - as consequence of either new lifestyle, crossbreeding, or their own balance searchings in other way. Use Silver Covenant just in recruiting scenario.

That story would in fact strongly follow path of Tolkien elves - who after destruction of Beleriand, become forced to search new settlements, hidden in forests, mountains or underground, between their less noble relatives. And such - it is classic to the core.

What does in fact stop us, from supposition, that there might be exist some unknown refuge camps in all that empty mountains of Eastern Kingdoms, during reigns of Scourge and Horde, now rediscovered after Alliances offensive?

Again, the classic elf archetype is fulfilled in every way by the Blood Elves except for the allying with Humans and Dwarves part. The best solution was the one already implemented, giving the Alliance a variant of those Elves meaningfully distinguished from the Blood Elves which was accomplished via the Void Elves.

While I acknowledge the debt fantasy owes to lord of the rings, this is not lord of the rings. The tolkien style elves are not friends of Humanity in Warcraft. They stand with the Horde.

[Deleted]

except for the allying with Humans and Dwarves part

Only if we agree for further erosion of their TBC era concept, that made them dangerous creatures, hiding great hunger under their beauty. Proud but pragmatic and with strong will to survive. Scared people, as I prefer to describe them.

Which we already stated - I'm not willing to agree.

[Obelisk Kai]

Only if we agree for further erosion of their TBC era concept, that made them dangerous creatures, hiding great hunger under their beauty. Proud but pragmatic and with strong will to survive. Scared people, as I prefer to describe them.

Which we already stated - I'm not willing to agree.

Their TBC era concept was ended with the restoration of the sunwell. They are still addicted to magic but their addiction is sated.

This is a not a subjective matter of debate, which appears to be a running theme among pro High Elfers. The pro High Elf community disagrees with something and pretends it is subjective. It is in fact objective, able to be proven one way or another.

As they have the Sunwell, they are no longer hungry. As they are no longer hungry, they are no longer driven by that hunger. As they are no longer driven by that hunger, it cannot define them. As they are not defined by hunger, they are now defined by something else. That something else is the restoration of the primacy of what they have always been, High Elves, that was briefly eclipsed by their drive to sustain their addiction.

The plotline where they were hungry is done. It is completed. Destroying the Sunwell in an attempt to force them back onto that plot, when the more enticing and interesting one of their role in the coming war between the void and the light is just over the horizon, is redundant and boring storytelling.

[Combatbutler]

The plotline where they were hungry is done. It is completed. Destroying the Sunwell in an attempt to force them back onto that plot, when the more enticing and interesting one of their role in the coming war between the void and the light is just over the horizon, is redundant and boring storytelling.

Not to mention it wouldn't work anymore either, since the Arcan'dor exists.

[Deleted]

(...)

Maybe. But speaking against retcons about nature of Quel'Thalas crystals, and theorizing about them being forced to use some controversial methods in possible future elven civil war - is not. As well, as speculating about light based Sunwell not being so safe.

And as well, as expecting them to start act like Drows to some point again. Cause - as Night Elves were hybrid of wood-elf-niche, and dark-elf-niche - Blood Elves in WC3, and later in TBC were High Elves transformed into opposite. And there is lot of people, who would prefer Blood Elves to be Blood Elves again.

Arcan'dor

Was imho even worst storytelling idea, than restoring of the Sunwell.

[Thalassian Bob]

Their TBC era concept was ended with the restoration of the sunwell. They are still addicted to magic but their addiction is sated.

This is a not a subjective matter of debate, which appears to be a running theme among pro High Elfers. The pro High Elf community disagrees with something and pretends it is subjective. It is in fact objective, able to be proven one way or another.

As they have the Sunwell, they are no longer hungry. As they are no longer hungry, they are no longer driven by that hunger. As they are no longer driven by that hunger, it cannot define them. As they are not defined by hunger, they are now defined by something else. That something else is the restoration of the primacy of what they have always been, High Elves, that was briefly eclipsed by their drive to sustain their addiction.

The plotline where they were hungry is done. It is completed. Destroying the Sunwell in an attempt to force them back onto that plot, when the more enticing and interesting one of their role in the coming war between the void and the light is just over the horizon, is redundant and boring storytelling.

Aptly put, sir.

[Combatbutler]

Was imho even worst storytelling idea, than restoring of the Sunwell.

True same goes for the nightborne themselves and yet here we are.

[Deleted]

True same goes for the nightborne themselves and yet here we are.

I would destroy Arcan'dor with pleasure - to make Nightfallen playable. And shut down Sunwell, or better - make it dangerous under the light corruption, to force Blood Elves to make some risky choices again.

There should be no such easy and safe returns.

[FlubberPuddy]

Their TBC era concept was ended with the restoration of the sunwell. They are still addicted to magic but their addiction is sated.

This is a not a subjective matter of debate, which appears to be a running theme among pro High Elfers. The pro High Elf community disagrees with something and pretends it is subjective. It is in fact objective, able to be proven one way or another.

As they have the Sunwell, they are no longer hungry. As they are no longer hungry, they are no longer driven by that hunger. As they are no longer driven by that hunger, it cannot define them. As they are not defined by hunger, they are now defined by something else. That something else is the restoration of the primacy of what they have always been, High Elves, that was briefly eclipsed by their drive to sustain their addiction.

The plotline where they were hungry is done. It is completed. Destroying the Sunwell in an attempt to force them back onto that plot, when the more enticing and interesting one of their role in the coming war between the void and the light is just over the horizon, is redundant and boring storytelling.

And this is prime example of what I meant that most Blood Elf players don't care about what made Blood Elves unique.

All they care is that "High Elves" get to be on Horde and don't care that what made their narrative unique in the first place is gone.

Looks over Lore, as I have always said.

But will try to defend them and say "placing them on Horde makes so unique omg! Don't you guys understand Warcraft!!?"

And then berate and screech at those who want Alliance High Elves by trying to say, "why would you want such a boring, typical, fantasy staple."

Hmm maybe for the same reasons that are clearly shown here?

[Sigxy]

Just as people hope Lor'themar beheads both Umbric and Alleria infront of the gates of Silvermoon.


Everyone has unrealistic desires.

You mean right after Rommath goes kind of like "I told you to be careful, but noooo!"

[Obelisk Kai]

You mean right after Rommath goes kind of like "I told you to be careful, but noooo!"

I have a theory that if everyone listened to Rommath the first time he said something the Blood Elves would be in a much better place overall.

He told Umbric not to mess with the Void, Umbric and his followers get turned into Void monstrosities.

He told Aethas not to trust Dalaran, immediately followed by the purge.

He told Lor'themar bringing Alleria to the Sunwell was a bad idea, Lor'themar ignored him and brought Alleria to the Sunwell leading to a near catastrophe.

He wanted to arrest Alleria but Lor'themar let her go. Can't wait to see how this bites the Horde in the ass.

Long story short in a crisis take a deep breath, keep calm and do whatever the fuck Grand Magister Rommath says.

[ninthbelief]

And this is prime example of what I meant that most Blood Elf players don't care about what made Blood Elves unique.

All they care is that "High Elves" get to be on Horde and don't care that what made their narrative unique in the first place is gone.

Looks over Lore, as I have always said.

But will try to defend them and say "placing them on Horde makes so unique omg! Don't you guys understand Warcraft!!?"

And then berate and screech at those who want Alliance High Elves by trying to say, "why would you want such a boring, typical, fantasy staple."

Hmm maybe for the same reasons that are clearly shown here?

This is a real good summary of the issue. The thought "Blood Elves ARE High Elves! You can't take what makes the Horde 'Horde!'" can't even be called short-sighted, it's basically being blind. Not only are High Elves an Alliance race first and foremost, but the High Elves that became Blood Elves became them with their own history, failings, and successes. To say "Play Horde, Blood Elves ARE High Elves" is hurting both Blood Elves and High Elves in terms of identity.

To make things worse, there's a section of players that think that the addition of High Elves to the Alliance would destroy faction balance -- to that, I'd say "awesome", since Horde is 40%+ Blood Elf (already ridiculous), total A:H percentage is 48%/52%, and the top progression guilds are something like 80% Horde. (Here's a video about that whole mess). A more diverse Horde would be excellent, as someone who's played far more on Horde than on Alliance and as someone who is a massive fan of Sin'dorei.

[Obelisk Kai]

This is a real good summary of the issue. The thought "Blood Elves ARE High Elves! You can't take what makes the Horde 'Horde!'" can't even be called short-sighted, it's basically being blind. Not only are High Elves an Alliance race first and foremost, but the High Elves that became Blood Elves became them with their own history, failings, and successes.

High Elves are not an Alliance race first and foremost. In fact they were the last race to join the Alliance and they did so under compulsion. They were also the very first to leave the Alliance. Secondly 'High Elves that became Blood Elves became them with their own history, failings, and successes.' is such an incorrect statement it's hard to know where to begin.

Blood Elves are High Elves. They changed the name. In every other respect they are the High Elves.

They possess the land of Quel'thalas, the city of Silvermoon, the Sunwell, the Farstriders, the Magisters, the Blood Knights and an unbroken lineage of rulers. The Blood Elves did not abandon their past when they renamed themselves, it is those in the Alliance who left their people, not the other way around.

To say "Play Horde, Blood Elves ARE High Elves" is hurting both Blood Elves and High Elves in terms of identity.

Blood Elves ARE High Elves. This does not hurt their identity because it is a statement of fact and has been stated by the devs on multiple occasions, the most recent being four weeks ago. Pretending that the High Elves in the Alliance are radically different from the Blood Elves is a stance motivated solely by the desire to prove they are different enough to qualify as an Allied race. We have too much in game evidence and word of god evidence from the developers to give that notion credence.

To make things worse, there's a section of players that think that the addition of High Elves to the Alliance would destroy faction balance -- to that, I'd say "awesome", since Horde is 40%+ Blood Elf (already ridiculous), total A:H percentage is 48%/52%, and the top progression guilds are something like 80% Horde. (Here's a video about that whole mess). A more diverse Horde would be excellent, as someone who's played far more on Horde than on Alliance and as someone who is a massive fan of Sin'dorei.

Faction balance is irrelevant in terms of numbers in my opinion. Faction integrity and identity are more important. Granting a duplicate of a core Horde race to the Alliance undermines that integrity, 'blurring the faction lines' as Ion put it.

Issues with the top raiding guilds, which represent a tiny proportion of the playerbase, are not going to be solved by the addition of Alliance High Elves, something which would have an impact on everyone else in the game.

The Horde is already plenty diverse regardless. Everyone has the choice of what to play. Blood Elves are the most popular. Elves are always popular.