Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

There is equivalence because both are employees of the same company, beholden to the same rules about secrecy toward current projects.


It doesn't work that way. If one doesn't know the answer, he needs to know the answer before giving it to the public, even if the answer is "don't share our secrets".


Again, irrelevant. Ion is just as shackled to the rules of the company as Zarhym was, at the time.


I wonder how successful (or unsuccessful) your company would be if the CEO was allowed to spew company secrets willy-nilly to anyone who asks.

Again, they're saying "not now", but that doesn't necessarily mean plans will never change as time passes.

What you think that they can or cannot disclose is what is truly irrelevant, you are basing your entire argument on the assumption that you know what they are and what they are not forbidden to say. You can't make that claim, only presumed generalities that may or may not apply. You have no idea how much leeway Zarhym was allowed in his time in the job.

All we know is that Zarhym made a statement saying there were no plans for Demon Hunters and that there probably were. Either he was lying or he was ignorant, and the likelihood is he was ignorant. That is it and nothing else.

Your argument doesn't make sense. You are trying to force an equivalence between the game director and a community manager, ignoring seniority and the fact that the game director is going to be privy to a lot more secrets than the community manager. What the game director says carries infinitely more weight than the Community Manager.

I mean seriously, pro High Elfers attack what Ion said on the grounds that he doesn't know what he is talking about, he's an idiot, he hates the Alliance etc. and here we have an argument that we should put more faith in one of the old PR guys because he said something on a completely unrelated topic!

And they didn't say 'not now'. They listed the reasons as to why it shouldn't happen. Namely that they undermine the faction wall, and they are already available in game. Those are factors that are not going to change no matter which expansion we are in. He gave a firm a no and just tossed out a standard platitude at the end that maybe someday they'll reconsider.

Given the reasons he cited in opposition though, it's going to be a doozy of an ask.

[Ielenia]

What you think that they can or cannot disclose is what is truly irrelevant, you are basing your entire argument on the assumption that you know what they are and what they are not forbidden to say. You can't make that claim, only presumed generalities that may or may not apply. You have no idea how much leeway Zarhym was allowed in his time in the job.

I think it's not far-fetched to assume that all employment contracts have at least a paragraph about not disclosing company secrets. NDAs, if you will.

All we know is that Zarhym made a statement saying there were no plans for Demon Hunters and that there probably were. Either he was lying or he was ignorant, and the likelihood is he was ignorant. That is it and nothing else.

Or, there's a third and a forth options that you're ignoring: that he knows, but was contractually obligated not to disclose such information; or plans changed. There were no plans for demon hunters... and then, some time later, there were.

Your argument doesn't make sense. You are trying to force an equivalence between the game director and a community manager, ignoring seniority and the fact that the game director is going to be privy to a lot more secrets than the community manager. What the game director says carries infinitely more weight than the Community Manager.

The issue here is that you're assuming that because I'm drawing an equivalence between the two, then that somehow means they're equivalent in everything else. That's not what I'm saying. But they are equivalent in the sense that they're not allowed to disclose secrets about what they're currently working on, under wraps.

I mean seriously, pro High Elfers attack what Ion said on the grounds that he doesn't know what he is talking about, he's an idiot, he hates the Alliance etc. and here we have an argument that we should put more faith in one of the old PR guys because he said something on a completely unrelated topic!

Aaaaand... here we go again, you're back to missing the point entirely. This time, apparently, on purpose. For what, I have no idea.

And they didn't say 'not now'. They listed the reasons as to why it shouldn't happen. Namely that they undermine the faction wall, and they are already available in game.

And those reasons doesn't really make sense when you look at them objectively. "Faction wall"? Well, void elves and blood elves have the exact same silhouette. Put them in armor that covers their bodies and, by glance, the only way you'll have to figure out if it's a friendly or a foe is if the character has a blue/green or red/orange outline when you select them. "Available in the game"? Not really, since my Horde blood elf would not be part of the Silver Covenant, for example.

[Deleted]

To this day I don't get why it's such a big problem to just add High Elves to the Alliance.

[Evilfish]

Calling them "immature" does nothing to counter their arguments and only serves as an attempt to vilify them. Regardless, the issue is the same, "want to play as 'X', then come to the 'Y' faction."

There were those who just liked the concept of the paladin, the lore, and even looks of the paladin and their abilities, but didn't want to play Alliance. It wasn't really about mechanics and overall balance, since (when we consider how 'balanced' vanilla was) paladins and shamans were basically mirrors of one-another for each faction, minor some differences, like shamans having bloodlust, and paladins """being able to tank""".

This is something I'm seeing more and more often these days. Pretending something is not there cause it's too "offensive" too though for these special people to go through a much needed reality check and one they are in desperate need of and in this case there is no argument, that's the reality of things. From the developer's mouth to our ears, there is nothing left to argue about. Only "immature" minds can't understand that.

And no, it was about the mechanics and balance because there was no balance in the fist place when there are two different classes on each side that had different damage and healing outputs. The fact is that during those times the "lore" was more important than balance. And we are talking about eary warcraft now, when these two classes were directly tied to the identity of the respective faction. But it didn't last because balance demanded that both classes should be made available to the other faction to compare. I mean, it's still happening right now, take a look at racials. See how they have to change and nerf them because of... balance! Class fantasy elements, removed because of balance. I've played a DK since day one WOTLK, I've seen the class go through changes and lose abilities because of balance, I fucking hated losing 2H Frost, but I accepted the change. That is simply how it works. Deal with it, move on and try to enjoy yourself or be miserable, obnoxious and immature, that's your choice.

[Grythletubs]

To this day I don't get why it's such a big problem to just add High Elves to the Alliance.

Spite, certain people are so obsessed with their factions nowadays that whenever the opposing faction asks for something, they choose to be dicks instead of being rational.

Also the faction wall supposedly being destroyed, even though night elves were given to the horde.
High elves were an obvious choice lorewise but instead alliance got asspull elves.

[FlubberPuddy]

Spite, certain people are so obsessed with their factions nowadays that whenever the opposing faction asks for something, they choose to be dicks instead of being rational.

Pretty much, it's similar to all the other additions that have happened to WoW over the years that a certain amount of players thought would spell DOOM or FAILURE or DEATH to WoW as a game, yet even after those supposedly game destroying additions, it's still here and live and well.

Basically anti-people are kicking and shouting and screaming just as much but once it's get added they won't care anymore because it's a done deal. Some have already admitted to that in this thread alone, therefore by stating that, we know if High Elves were to be added then it actually wouldn't spell UTTER DOOM for the game as some of them are saying.

[Ielenia]

This is something I'm seeing more and more often these days. Pretending something is not there cause it's too "offensive" too though for these special people to go through a much needed reality check and one they are in desperate need of and in this case there is no argument, that's the reality of things. From the developer's mouth to our ears, there is nothing left to argue about. Only "immature" minds can't understand that.

Again, what you just said does nothing to counter the arguments they provide. Just calling them "immature" is nothing more than ad hominem.

And no, it was about the mechanics and balance because there was no balance in the fist place when there are two different classes on each side that had different damage and healing outputs. The fact is that during those times the "lore" was more important than balance. And we are talking about eary warcraft now, when these two classes were directly tied to the identity of the respective faction. But it didn't last because balance demanded that both classes should be made available to the other faction to compare. I mean, it's still happening right now, take a look at racials. See how they have to change and nerf them because of... balance! Class fantasy elements, removed because of balance. I've played a DK since day one WOTLK, I've seen the class go through changes and lose abilities because of balance, I fucking hated losing 2H Frost, but I accepted the change. That is simply how it works. Deal with it, move on and try to enjoy yourself or be miserable, obnoxious and immature, that's your choice.

And what you said doesn't really counter what I said. Mechanical or lore reasons, it was still a "want to play 'X', then come to 'Y' faction". Especially when you mention about how such classes were 'tied to the identity of their respective factions', considering "faction identity" (or something to that effect) was brought up as a reason by Ion against high elves.

[Darththeo]

You are arguing for playable High Elves without providing anything in the way of evidence beyond continually restating your subjective opinion

Because this entire debate has since it began been solely subjective. Just because you claim objectivity doesn't make it so. And again, I am not arguing for playable High Elves ... I have stated this. Even if you can't accept that, you have no right to accuse me of arguing for a point I am not when I state so.

If I were to say, you are only arguing against playable High Elves because you hate the Alliance players and that is your sole argument ... would you say that would be fair to say? This is why I have basically stated you are just here to troll. You have stated no argument will sway you.

You don't accept that being playable is the mark of a core race. THAT is the ridiculous position, because playability is the obvious criteria. When you set off this mini argument over 'core' races by focusing on my use of the term, you moved swiftly to discount being playable as THE criteria for an obvious reason. It's the obvious answer.

Because at that point, core is 100% redundant with playable. However, core comes with the implication that such a race is important to the Horde lorewise ... which Blood Elves are not. I am sorry I don't let you play the word game you want.

Secondly, if you accept there are Alliance High Elves and that Blood Elves are high elves ... that pretty much means lorewise, High Elves are neutral while independent factions are align to one side, the other or neither. That alone would make High Elves/Blood Elves core to neither the Horde nor the Alliance.

Lastly, I am under no obligation to give you my definition when I am arguing for the rejection of yours. I don't have to have a replacement for you redundant one. If core means playable, than we don't need it. If core means playable save pandaren, than we don't need the term. You are using core solely to attempt to make your argument stronger because you know that core is a stronger word than playable.

[Strippling]

To this day I don't get why it's such a big problem to just add High Elves to the Alliance.

The game director of WoW explained why it's a problem in two recent Q&A's.

Here's the most recent one for your convenience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUik9-2ygS8

[Deleted]

The game director of WoW explained why it's a problem in two recent Q&A's.

Here's the most recent one for your convenience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUik9-2ygS8

His argument seemed to boil down to "they would look too similar to Blood Elves". Which doesn't seem to be a real problem to me, considering Pandaren on either side look identical, too. If all that was different was that Alliance High Elves had blue eyes, that would already make the two groups more distinguished from one another than the two Pandaren groups.

[Obelisk Kai]

And those reasons doesn't really make sense when you look at them objectively. "Faction wall"? Well, void elves and blood elves have the exact same silhouette. Put them in armor that covers their bodies and, by glance, the only way you'll have to figure out if it's a friendly or a foe is if the character has a blue/green or red/orange outline when you select them. "Available in the game"? Not really, since my Horde blood elf would not be part of the Silver Covenant, for example.

This is my last word on the debate over whether what a community manager said is equivalent to what the game director says because we aren't going to agree on it and frankly I think it's rank desperation on your part. That's all I am ever going to think of it. That's all the vast majority of people are going to think of it too because most people are going to accept that a PR guy isn't equivalent to the team leader and no matter how much you try and caveat your theory to the contrary, that is exactly what it rests on. That we should treat similar phrases from two people in wildly different positions similarly.

As for the reasons the reasons make perfect sense, you just think they are wrong. You think they are wrong because you are not looking at them objectively, as you say you are but you are not, you are looking at them as obstacles to playable Alliance High Elves.

Void Elves and Blood Elves have completely different themes. If you really agreed that the faction wall was broken by Void Elves, you'd be happy with Void Elves and wouldn't be asking for Blood Elf clones.

Similarly, Night Elves and Nightborne have completely different themes. A Nightborne is not a Night Elf, even though they used to be. And a Void Elf is not a High Elf, even though they used to be.

And Blood Elves ARE High Elves, that the High Elf on offer to EVERYONE isn't in the silver covenant is irrelevant. You can't play a Steamwheedle Cartel Goblin either, but nobody is saying you can't play a Goblin.

[Gurluas]

This is my last word on the debate over whether what a community manager said is equivalent to what the game director says because we aren't going to agree on it and frankly I think it's rank desperation on your part. That's all I am ever going to think of it. That's all the vast majority of people are going to think of it too because most people are going to accept that a PR guy isn't equivalent to the team leader and no matter how much you try and caveat your theory to the contrary, that is exactly what it rests on. That we should treat similar phrases from two people in wildly different positions similarly.

As for the reasons the reasons make perfect sense, you just think they are wrong. You think they are wrong because you are not looking at them objectively, as you say you are but you are not, you are looking at them as obstacles to playable Alliance High Elves.

Void Elves and Blood Elves have completely different themes. If you really agreed that the faction wall was broken by Void Elves, you'd be happy with Void Elves and wouldn't be asking for Blood Elf clones.

Similarly, Night Elves and Nightborne have completely different themes. A Nightborne is not a Night Elf, even though they used to be. And a Void Elf is not a High Elf, even though they used to be.

And Blood Elves ARE High Elves, that the High Elf on offer to EVERYONE isn't in the silver covenant is irrelevant. You can't play a Steamwheedle Cartel Goblin either, but nobody is saying you can't play a Goblin.

Yet there were plenty of concepts here to give High elves a different theme and you flat out ignored such. Whether it's giving them shamanism or something more drastic like becoming crystalline snow elves, you can't deny those concepts are identical to Blood elves because they're not.

Most people here were fine with evolving the High elf concept into something new, but it had to be the High elf concept.
Void elves are closer to the TBC Blood elf concept.

[Obelisk Kai]

Because this entire debate has since it began been solely subjective. Just because you claim objectivity doesn't make it so. And again, I am not arguing for playable High Elves ... I have stated this. Even if you can't accept that, you have no right to accuse me of arguing for a point I am not when I state so.

The debate is not subjective to fans. There is objectivity. Subjectivity belongs to the authors alone, they who can alter the game world as they see fit. But even they are constrained by what they have already built, the desire for consistency.

As fans objectivity is provided by in game lore and out of game commentary. This applies to all fandoms, nerds everywhere resort to word of god and canon sources when debating aspects of their favorite universes. Warcraft is no different.

This particular debate is cankered by the fact that, as I have said, the pro High Elf side has nothing. Not one piece of objective evidence to support their goal. Not one legitimate comment that can stand up to scrutiny, not one fact in game that can be marshalled in support. For the past day I have been debating yet more fluff to go alongside Muffinus's joke or the blizzard employee liking a tweet, that a community manager who left the game made a 'no plans for Demon Hunter' comment when there were probably plans for Demon Hunters and that this is equivalent to the game director saying 'no plans for High Elves'.

This is the sort of desperate thinking characterizing the pro High Elf side of the debate, trying to find anything that can be used as objective evidence in support of their goal. Yet time and again it just does not work, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

And again, if you keep arguing the pro High Elf position I am going to treat you as a pro High Elf commentator. I am here because I have an investment of the outcome, yet for this you label me a troll. You are apparently here, if I am to take you at your word, just to argue with me. This means you have no investment in the outcome and are here just for the argument.

verb
gerund or present participle: trolling
1.
informal
make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.

A measure of hypocrisy then in your accusations.

If you have no investment in the outcome, if you don't care, then you are the one who is trolling.

If I were to say, you are only arguing against playable High Elves because you hate the Alliance players and that is your sole argument ... would you say that would be fair to say? This is why I have basically stated you are just here to troll. You have stated no argument will sway you.

I have the right to offer commentary because I believe playable Alliance High Elves would be an unreasonable breach of the faction wall, unfair to the Horde faction and disrespectful to the Blood Elves who are the High Elves of the Warcraft Universe. No argument will sway me because I am right. I have cited plenty of evidence in support of my position, up to and including the game director saying almost word for word what I would have said in his position. That Blood Elves are High Elves. That Alliance High Elves damage the faction wall the game is built on. That Void Elves are a variant for the Alliance.

And all of that was based on readily available lore in the game and other word of god statements.

If a flat earther presented their arguments, would you deem it arrogant of someone who knows the earth to be round NOT to be swayed by them? Of course not, the flat earth position is manifestly ridiculous and the earth being round is truth.

As the pro High Elf position has no supporting arguments either in game or out that actually work, they always revert in the end to the final strategem. That if they whine loudly enough for long enough, Blizzard will break and give them what they want.

This is of course possible, but it involves retconning everything that has come before.

Because at that point, core is 100% redundant with playable. However, core comes with the implication that such a race is important to the Horde lorewise ... which Blood Elves are not. I am sorry I don't let you play the word game you want. Secondly, if you accept there are Alliance High Elves and that Blood Elves are high elves ... that pretty much means lorewise, High Elves are neutral while independent factions are align to one side, the other or neither. That alone would make High Elves/Blood Elves core to neither the Horde nor the Alliance.

High Elves are not neutral. By that logic, the United Kingdom was neutral in the second world war because a few Brits fought for Hitler. The Blood Elves are the High Elves, they control everything that defined the High Elves as a people, from the state of Quel'thalas, to the military, the navy, the lands of eversong woods, the city of Silvermoon and the Sunwell. By contrast, the few remaining Alliacne High Elves are shoved into a couple of apartments in Dalaran. There is no equivalence.

Oh, and the Blood Elves are playable.

Lastly, I am under no obligation to give you my definition when I am arguing for the rejection of yours. I don't have to have a replacement for you redundant one. If core means playable, than we don't need it. If core means playable save pandaren, than we don't need the term. You are using core solely to attempt to make your argument stronger because you know that core is a stronger word than playable.

So it really is another example of having no evidence of your own but just attacking mine. And you claim you aren't a pro High Elf commentator?

I use the word core because there are non core members of the Horde. Pandaren, despite being playable, are not core because they are neutral and because the Horde Pandaren constitute such a tiny fraction of the overall Pandaren population. Hozen are not core. Taunka are not core.

Core means a playable Horde race, unique to the Horde, representing a large chunk of that race's overll population.

I believe my definition is reasonable and would be acceptable to most people.

Your attack is motivated it seems by a desire to prove that the Blood Elves don't really belong in the Horde, which is again a demonstrable falsehood when the Horde is presented as a coalition of the scorned with internal differences they have put aside to fight for survival. After all, if I agreed with this, it would mean the Undead aren't a core Horde race.

Despite the fact we have an Undead Warchief.

- - - Updated - - -

Yet there were plenty of concepts here to give High elves a different theme and you flat out ignored such. Whether it's giving them shamanism or something more drastic like becoming crystalline snow elves, you can't deny those concepts are identical to Blood elves because they're not.

Most people here were fine with evolving the High elf concept into something new, but it had to be the High elf concept.
Void elves are closer to the TBC Blood elf concept.

Most of the concepts provided were just Blood Elves with different hair cuts or tattoos.

One concept that was heavily pushed was High Elves becoming more like Wood Elves, ignoring the fact that Night Elves are the Wood Elves of Warcraft and they have that theme covered.

Here's a rule of thumb. If you suggest a concept for Alliance High Elves, and a Blood Elf can do it with some makeup or new clothes or a new hairstyle, it's not good enough.

Void Elves are exactly what so many High Elves fans purpoted to want, a High Elf that didn't look like a Blood Elf. Forgive me for having little sympathy when the reaction to them has been 'not that different!'.

[Darththeo]

The debate is not subjective to fans. There is objectivity. Subjectivity belongs to the authors alone, they who can alter the game world as they see fit. But even they are constrained by what they have already built, the desire for consistency.

As fans objectivity is provided by in game lore and out of game commentary. This applies to all fandoms, nerds everywhere resort to word of god and canon sources when debating aspects of their favorite universes. Warcraft is no different.

Calling subjectivity objectivity is like calling a horse an automobile ... it doesn't make you right. Also, no, do you even deal with Star Wars fans like at all?

This particular debate is cankered by the fact that, as I have said, the pro High Elf side has nothing. Not one piece of objective evidence to support their goal.

Factually false. Unlike you, I don't like repeating myself ... please go back and read the entire topic, there evidence is there ... you merely dismiss it without objective reason. You aren't objective, this debate has never been and can never be objective. It is by definition impossible with all the given facts.

And again, if you keep arguing the pro High Elf position I am going to treat you as a pro High Elf commentator. I am here because I have an investment of the outcome, yet for this you label me a troll. You are apparently here, if I am to take you at your word, just to argue with me. This means you have no investment in the outcome and are here just for the argument.

verb
gerund or present participle: trolling
1.
informal
make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.

A measure of hypocrisy then in your accusations.

I am not the one who stated that there is no argument that will sway me ... that was you.

I have the right to offer commentary because I believe playable Alliance High Elves would be an unreasonable breach of the faction wall, unfair to the Horde faction and disrespectful to the Blood Elves who are the High Elves of the Warcraft Universe. No argument will sway me because I am right. I have cited plenty of evidence in support of my position, up to and including the game director saying almost word for word what I would have said in his position. That Blood Elves are High Elves. That Alliance High Elves damage the faction wall the game is built on. That Void Elves are a variant for the Alliance.

And all of that was based on readily available lore in the game and other word of god statements.

If a flat earther presented their arguments, would you deem it arrogant of someone who knows the earth to be round NOT to be swayed by them? Of course not, the flat earth position is manifestly ridiculous and the earth being round is truth.

As the pro High Elf position has no supporting arguments either in game or out that actually work, they always revert in the end to the final strategem. That if they whine loudly enough for long enough, Blizzard will break and give them what they want.

This is of course possible, but it involves retconning everything that has come before.

Do me a favor, and stop repeating yourself in the same post ... I get tired of reading the same crap arguments from you as it is. You are aware you are closer to a flat earther than the Pro-helfers right? Most pro-helfer have acknowledge the statement made by the creators and disagree with them for lore reasons ... you reject all evidence against your belief and assert you are right without evidence.

High Elves are not neutral. By that logic, the United Kingdom was neutral in the second world war because a few Brits fought for Hitler. The Blood Elves are the High Elves, they control everything that defined the High Elves as a people, from the state of Quel'thalas, to the military, the navy, the lands of eversong woods, the city of Silvermoon and the Sunwell. By contrast, the few remaining Alliacne High Elves are shoved into a couple of apartments in Dalaran. There is no equivalence.

Brits aren't a race, by any definition. They are a nationality. Nations are often defined by their leadership's position ... not the populations. It is more like saying Caucasian was neutral in WWII, than Brit.

So it really is another example of having no evidence of your own but just attacking mine. And you claim you aren't a pro High Elf commentator?

Because not every one has a side in the debate ... I just don't like your argument style so I argue against you to show you that you are no better than the Helfers.

I use the word core because there are non core members of the Horde. Pandaren, despite being playable, are not core because they are neutral and because the Horde Pandaren constitute such a tiny fraction of the overall Pandaren population. Hozen are not core. Taunka are not core.

And that definition is redundant because we have the terms: Playable and Horde-Only ... so core is just a word game and means nothing.

Core means a playable Horde race, unique to the Horde, representing a large chunk of that race's overll population.

Thanks for proving my point ... thus the term core is useless because of redundancy.

I believe my definition is reasonable and would be acceptable to most people.

A person who claims they will not be swayed is anything but reasonable.

Your attack is motivated it seems by a desire to prove that the Blood Elves don't really belong in the Horde, which is again a demonstrable falsehood when the Horde is presented as a coalition of the scorned with internal differences they have put aside to fight for survival. After all, if I agreed with this, it would mean the Undead aren't a core Horde race.

Despite lore characters like Sylvanas and Lor'themar basically saying things that support me? Lor'themar stance is he'll do whatever it takes for the Blood Elves to survive ... even if that means leaving the Horde and going back to the Alliance. It is at this time, Lor'themar hands are tied by current Alliance ideals ... but Lor'themar has been clear, he'll only stand with the Horde so long as it is the best course for the Blood Elves.

Sylvanas states that the "Core horde" races have always viewed the additional races as secondary. The lore is there ... don't get on my case because you don't like facts. I look at all facts, you look at facts that support solely your position ... you are a flat earther and don't know it.

[Ielenia]

This is my last word on the debate over whether what a community manager said is equivalent to what the game director says because we aren't going to agree on it and frankly I think it's rank desperation on your part. That's all I am ever going to think of it. That's all the vast majority of people are going to think of it too because most people are going to accept that a PR guy isn't equivalent to the team leader and no matter how much you try and caveat your theory to the contrary, that is exactly what it rests on. That we should treat similar phrases from two people in wildly different positions similarly.

Again, you're the only one trying to make total equivalence out of this. All I'm saying is that both are much more likely than not to be beholden to the same rules when dealing with the public when the subject of the matter are projects being worked on. When they say something about the game to the public, both have the same weight, unless they directly contradict each other. At that point, usually the person with the higher rank "wins".

Void Elves and Blood Elves have completely different themes. If you really agreed that the faction wall was broken by Void Elves, you'd be happy with Void Elves and wouldn't be asking for Blood Elf clones.

... Void elves are "blood elf clones". Only with a blue tint. They have the same culture, the same language, the same body type... the only difference is that they like to cosplay as Widowmaker.

Similarly, Night Elves and Nightborne have completely different themes. A Nightborne is not a Night Elf, even though they used to be. And a Void Elf is not a High Elf, even though they used to be.

Nightborne also have a completely different culture from Night Elves. Their shared history splintered off ten thousand years ago. They're almost like vrykul and humans.

And Blood Elves ARE High Elves, that the High Elf on offer to EVERYONE isn't in the silver covenant is irrelevant.

Actually, it's very relevant when you consider that the Silver Covenant faction is purely-Alliance.

[elbleuet]

A new high elf questgiver has just been added in Stromgarde.

Blizzard I love you, but you're so cruel with your high elf fans.

[Mehrunes]

It's fascinating that this thread is still going on.

Spite, certain people are so obsessed with their factions nowadays that whenever the opposing faction asks for something, they choose to be dicks instead of being rational.

"Let's be quiet about High Elves fans being so obsessed with their faction that they can't play High Elves already there in the Horde even though they have been available for them for 12 years. Also, being so entitled one demands the opposite faction's race on their own faction, due to the aforementioned totally-not-obsession-related inability to play said opposite faction, is completely rational and such level of entitlement is not dickish in the slightest because High Elves."

Also the faction wall supposedly being destroyed, even though night elves were given to the horde.

Nightborne aren't Night Elves. They diverged from them earlier than the High Elves. If Nightborne are Night Elves then High Elves are also Night Elves and as such the Alliance already has them by the virtue of having Night Elves.

[Grythletubs]

It's fascinating that this thread is still going on.




"Let's be quiet about High Elves fans being so obsessed with their faction that they can't play High Elves already there in the Horde even though they have been available for them for 12 years. Also, being so entitled one demands the opposite faction's race on their own faction, due to the aforementioned totally-not-obsession-related inability to play said opposite faction, is completely rational and such level of entitlement is not dickish in the slightest because High Elves."




Nightborne aren't Night Elves. They diverged from them earlier than the High Elves. If Nightborne are Night Elves then High Elves are also Night Elves and as such the Alliance already has them by the virtue of having Night Elves.

Nightborne are night elves. Same silhouette, same skin color etc. Culturally they're different, but they look exactly the same, hence why the whole bitterness towards alliance having high elves is so silly.

Also people want high elves, the ones that are already part of the alliance similarly to DI dwarves being part of the alliance, not horde blood elves.

[Obelisk Kai]

Nightbourne are Night Elves and Void Elves are Blood Elves same animations same looks different factions thats all I'm going to say, It's ok to destroy the Alliance faction wall but not the Hordes also might I mention Pandaren you may think they are irrelevant but they are totally not they are completely relevant your illusion of a faction wall doesn't really exist while these races are available.

Nightborne are not Night Elves. They used to be Night Elves but were transformed by the radiance of the Nightwell after thousands of years of exposure. We can see this in the different skin tones the Nightborne have, their thinner and less muscled bodies and their upswept rather than backswept ears.

Nightborne also preserved the ancient culture of the Highborne, which the Night Elves eradicated in the wake of the First invasion, ensuring that the Nightborne have a completely different theme to the Night Elves.

Similarly, Void Elves are not Blood/High Elves. They used to be Blood/High Elves, but they were transformed by their exposure to the powers of the void which is manifested in unique skin tones and the presence of tentacles. They are also thematically different from Blood/High Elves, having lost the majesty of their former lives and being cut off from the holy light which, as golden eyes for normal thalassian elves shows, is an increasingly important aspect for the Blood/High Elves.

To say Nightborne are Night Elves, and thus broke the faction wall, is a deliberately obtuse statement designed to to suggest that the faction wall was broken to give the Horde Night Elves whereas Void Elves, because they aren't the Blood Elf clone you have asked for, do not break the faction wall. As I have demonstrated that Nightborne and Void Elves are in fact fairly equivalent in terms of the changes they received to justify their presence on the factions opposite their parent races, I can safely say you are wrong. And you are wrong because you are motivated in your biases.

As for Pandaren, continually using them as an example when that example has been refuted time and time and time again does you no favours. It merely prompts another weary recitation of the standard response, that Pandaren were conceived of and implemented as a neutral race, that the entire plot of the Pandaren revolved around their neutrality and that Blizzard clearly regrets adding a neutral race to the game, even the one they designed specifically to be neutral. Blood Elves, who are High Elves, were introduced on the Horde faction and making them neutral would be a far bigger step than Blizzard is willing to do. As they have said. The addition of a Void Elf variant as a clear compromise, with it's own theme and storyline that does not encroach on the identity of a core Horde race or the integrity of the Horde faction, makes the potential addition of High Elves very hard to see coming to pass prior to the game ending, as it one day will.

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Calling subjectivity objectivity is like calling a horse an automobile ... it doesn't make you right. Also, no, do you even deal with Star Wars fans like at all?

And your evidence? When I say I have an objective opinion I provide an in game fact or a word of god statement to back it up. That's exactly what an objective argument is. Every single time we have debated in the past week I have pointed out that you haven't a shred of evidence to back up anything you have said, that you rely entirely on a subjective point of view. Which turned out to be incorrect, as when asked to provide your own subjective criteria for a core faction race you point blank refused and reverted to attacking mine. Even when I asked you to provide a subjective comment, you couldn't do it.

Factually false. Unlike you, I don't like repeating myself ... please go back and read the entire topic, there evidence is there ... you merely dismiss it without objective reason. You aren't objective, this debate has never been and can never be objective. It is by definition impossible with all the given facts.

I 'repeat' myself because the facts in this matter remain consistent, beyond our ability to alter. The facts are in game lore. The facts are word of god statements. The facts all OBJECTIVELY point to the same conclusion, no matter how you spin it. That Blood Elves ARE High Elves. That High Elves ARE playable. That Void Elves ARE a High Elf variant given to the Alliance as a compromise. On the pro High Elf side I have not seen a single piece of evidence refuting any of that and the reason is, you can't. All three of my substantive points are backed up by literally everything in game and out.

I am not the one who stated that there is no argument that will sway me ... that was you.

And I illustrated the reasons why. The pro High Elf side has no arguments supporting their position, merely a wish they repeat continually in the hope Blizzard obliges them and retcons the game. Maybe they will one day. But at the moment there is nothing.

Do me a favor, and stop repeating yourself in the same post ... I get tired of reading the same crap arguments from you as it is. You are aware you are closer to a flat earther than the Pro-helfers right? Most pro-helfer have acknowledge the statement made by the creators and disagree with them for lore reasons ... you reject all evidence against your belief and assert you are right without evidence.

If you think most pro High Elfers acknowledge what the developer's said then you really aren't paying attention. They'ed typed out more interpretations of Ion's empty platitude about it being 'sometime in the future' than actually contending with the fact he listed the reasons why they aren't happening.

The vast majority of the remaining pro high elf community is in denial over this.

As for your own repetition that I have no evidence, that is quite frankly a lie on your part. I provide ample evidence coming from multiple sources to back up what I say. You seemingly define evidence as the pro High Elf communities tendency to type out wholly subjective opinion pieces which are applauded by the faithful and rapidly torn to shreds by anyone else. Isn't it funny that after all our back and forth over 'evidence' these past few days where one of my recurring themes is the lack of evidence on the pro High Elf side you've failed to produce a single piece to back up your opinion? Merely insisting that it's there if I look for it. I've looked. I don't see it.

Because not every one has a side in the debate ... I just don't like your argument style so I argue against you to show you that you are no better than the Helfers.

People who don't take a side in a debate usually don't participate. And you are spectacular failing at your stated goals, as your own evidence free commentary simply reaffirms that a sourced approach to debate is the best way to go. My arguments are objectively superior to the pro High Elf communities because I can back up almost everything I say.

On the subjective matter of 'if they whine long enough and loudly enough that Blizzard will retcon their game to give them what they want' that will be for the future.

As for you you are welcome to continue debating me...I'd prefer if you offered actual facts or even better opinions of your own rather than continually failing to undermine mine but do what you must.

And that definition is redundant because we have the terms: Playable and Horde-Only ... so core is just a word game and means nothing.
Thanks for proving my point ... thus the term core is useless because of redundancy.

The term is used to contrast with non playable members of the Horde and involves player perception, a playable race unique to the Horde is a core Horde race. As you have not offered any alternative opinion on what constitutes a core race there is nothing much to discuss here.

A person who claims they will not be swayed is anything but reasonable.

I will be swayed by evidence. The pro High Elf community has no evidence and can only achieve their goal through a very public retcon. Hence I cannot be swayed.

Despite lore characters like Sylvanas and Lor'themar basically saying things that support me? Lor'themar stance is he'll do whatever it takes for the Blood Elves to survive ... even if that means leaving the Horde and going back to the Alliance. It is at this time, Lor'themar hands are tied by current Alliance ideals ... but Lor'themar has been clear, he'll only stand with the Horde so long as it is the best course for the Blood Elves.

Which was from Mists of Pandaria prior to the purge. Since that point we have seen Lor'themar being vocally pro Horde on the isle of Thunder, siding with the darkspear rebellion and instituting a new Warchief, and eagerly extolling the virtues of the Horde to a prospective member state whilst at the same time publicly denigrating the Alliance. Has Lor'themar given any indication, even a hint, of thinking about the Alliance offer since the purge? No, he has not. The events that occurred in Mists of Pandaria were unique as the entire Horde was falling apart due to Garrosh. In the end, it came back together. All the core races of the Horde came back together.

Sylvanas states that the "Core horde" races have always viewed the additional races as secondary. The lore is there ... don't get on my case because you don't like facts. I look at all facts, you look at facts that support solely your position ... you are a flat earther and don't know it.

I have never denied that there are tensions within the Horde. The tensions are part of what makes the Horde the Horde, a coalition of sovereign states and profoundly different cultures united by a desire to survive in a world that hates all of them. Yet those tensions don't mean that first three races in the Horde are more core than all the races that joined after. It just means there are internal tensions. As I said, core race means a playable race unique to the Horde representing a sizable chunk of the overall race's population.

Besides, a Horde with such tensions is infinitely preferably to the narrative desert of the Alliance and it's monolithic Humano-centric story.

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Again, you're the only one trying to make total equivalence out of this. All I'm saying is that both are much more likely than not to be beholden to the same rules when dealing with the public when the subject of the matter are projects being worked on. When they say something about the game to the public, both have the same weight, unless they directly contradict each other. At that point, usually the person with the higher rank "wins".

Then when the Game Director says there are no plans for High Elves, there are really no plans because there is nobody higher in the development team to contradict him.

... Void elves are "blood elf clones". Only with a blue tint. They have the same culture, the same language, the same body type... the only difference is that they like to cosplay as Widowmaker.

Void Elves are physically different from Blood/High Elves due to a change in skin tones and the addition of tentacles. They are thematically different in that they are void corrupted mutated cut off from the sunwell and the holy light. Given that the Blood/High Elves are increasingly light aligned it is difficult to achieve more thematic distance than that.

Nightborne also have a completely different culture from Night Elves. Their shared history splintered off ten thousand years ago. They're almost like vrykul and humans.

No, they are not. Thalyssra's flashback when you first met demonstrated that she was a Night Elf in Suramar during the first invasion. She was transformed, as all the Night Elves in Suramar were, into Nightborne due to the influence of the Nightwell. The culture of the Nightborne is the one the Night Elves had prior to abandoning their old way of life and embracing Druidism. The closest analogue to the Nightborne in fact are the Void Elves, a group of Elves transformed by an external power source, albeit over a much longer time scale. Fitting, as the Nightborne and the modified Night Elf model are the quid pro quo for the Void Elves and the modified Blood/High Elf model.

Actually, it's very relevant when you consider that the Silver Covenant faction is purely-Alliance.

And the Farstriders are purely Horde. Should we have a Farstriders allied race now? Is every minor faction going to get their turn?

[Ielenia]

Then when the Game Director says there are no plans for High Elves, there are really no plans because there is nobody higher in the development team to contradict him.

And the last time they said "no plans", we got what was being asked for a few years later. Moral of the story? "No plans" is not a definitive answer that will last forever.

Void Elves are physically different from Blood/High Elves due to a change in skin tones and the addition of tentacles. They are thematically different in that they are void corrupted mutated cut off from the sunwell and the holy light.

Skin tone and hair style is often negated by armor. On top of that, blood elf death knights have dark bluish skin tones that would make differentiation between them harder. And they still share the exact same model, silhouette and animations. As for thematically different? Well, so are high elves. Not to the extent of the void elves, currently, but they could be further expanded, like for example further embracing the light to stay away from fel. High elves are also less inclined to take risky moves like the blood elves.

No, they are not. Thalyssra's flashback when you first met demonstrated that she was a Night Elf in Suramar during the first invasion. She was transformed, as all the Night Elves in Suramar were, into Nightborne due to the influence of the Sunwell.

And when was that again? Right. Ten thousand years ago.

The culture of the Nightborne is the one the Night Elves had prior to abandoning their old way of life and embracing Druidism.

Yes. Had is the keyword here. Had. No longer the night elves have that culture.

The closest analogue to the Nightborne in fact are the Void Elves, a group of Elves transformed by an external power source, albeit over a much longer time scale. Fitting, as the Nightborne and the modified Night Elf model are the quid pro quo for the Void Elves and the modified Blood/High Elf model.

Actually, the closest analog would be the blood elves. Which is why they bonded so closely, mind you.

And the Farstriders are purely Horde. Should we have a Farstriders allied race now? Is every minor faction going to get their turn?

... And there you go, missing the point again. You can be a Farstrider elf. But you can't be a Silver Covenant elf.