Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Doffen]

But even so, Nightborne STILL got unique animations specific to them. High Elves? Nnnope.

Only the idle stance is different. Everything else when it comes to animation is just the same as Night Elves. Wich sucks, because Nightbornes should have had their own animations. Lazy blizz.

[Enkrypt]

That would be true if Nightborne were white night elves, but they aren't. They're night elves with tattoos. The equivalent would be to have high elves with tattoos on the alliance, not void elves (unless they chose to make void elves light skinned like blood elves).

Imo I feel like Blizzard should have scrapped the idea of blood elves joining the Alliance and just made the High Elves under Alleria/Veressa become Void Elves.

I wish the problem was that easily solved, honestly. Let's talk hypothetically for a moment, because I want to engage...

If we take the Night Elf/Nightborne issue back a step and look at this a different way and say, well, what if the Horde had been campaigning for Night Elves for their faction for, let's call them, "reasons". Whether it's lore or simply rule of cool. Hypothetically. That could never happen, right? It even seems silly to suggest. But, Blizzard saw the desire for it, and they decided Nightborne elves would fill that desire of that demographic and please the people. But, that's not what happened. Instead, it backfires. The Horde players proclaim, "This isn't what we asked for!!! They don't fit the Night Elf archetype and we won't rest until the Horde gets it!" But, what they wanted was never going to happen, it simply couldn't. The Night Elves belong to the Alliance, they've aligned with them and there aren't enough outliers to constitute dealing that blow to the Alliance playerbase. Yet still, for years, the Horde players demand a carbon copy of Night Elves. They don't want a darker, skinnier version with tattoos. It simply won't do, they say. And despite Blizzard explaining it, it never stops.

So if the above were true, for a moment, does it show a bit how this looks from a different perspective? The perspective of an "anti-High Elfer"? It can't be denied that the Blood Elves belong to the Horde for so long now that they do indeed feel like part of it. So how is it anything more than entitlement to want to take their appearance, their feeling and give them to the opposing side? All because some High Elves are still used as story-telling elements? Because once upon a time, Blizzard introduced a race at the same time for both factions (Pandaren)? Are those good enough reasons to some of you? Well, they aren't good enough reasons to me. I have nothing against you, or anyone in this thread, that disagrees with me. I have disdain for those who continue to push this agenda without even bothering to understand how die-hard Horde players would react. Denying things like faction identity, blurring the lines, etc, etc. Those things exist to some of us. It exists to Blizzard, too, quite obviously. Blizzard knows how the Horde would feel. They know how the Alliance would feel if we demanded one of your races with different eye color, too. They see it. They protect it.

I'm tired of being vilified for being in opposition. Yeah, I'll admit, after all these years, it felt good that Ion, and Blizzard, chose to sympathize with the Horde players on this matter. This has been a forum-based war since TBC. Closure felt nice. But just because I'm in opposition doesn't mean I'm merely a troll. I've been blasted with some hateful shit through PMs because I defend the Horde's right to have the Blood Elves exclusively. I'd get infracted for repeating some it. That shit isn't cool. So when I challenge someone being rude to me, I'm not trolling or posting to simply piss people off. I'm fighting fire with fire, frankly.

I commend the artists who contributed their work in this thread and others to innovate the High Elves to a point where they could be different. Some of it was impressive and creative. But if a bunch of Horde players were taking the exact Night Elf model, adding tattoos, hair styles, etc, etc to differentiate them, make them cooler, and all just to justify them being playable on the Horde, would Alliance players not defend what belongs to their faction with vigor? Would they not be here opposing me? I would hope you would. Especially when we're pretending that taking your race, adding cool features and customization to its exact model (because that's all we'll accept) simply to set it apart so it can be playable. Let's take your race, make it cooler, just so we can have it? Really? No thanks?

Blizzard missed the mark with Void Elves to some players, possibly even the majority. But it is no doubt the compromise Blizzard felt safe to make to give the Alliance a Blood Elf-esque model. Ask for changes to Void Elves. Ask for lighter skin tones and blue eyes. Make a compromise, and if you can't do that, play the Horde. But please, stop making people like Obelisk and me out to be bad guys. When we've presented facts and undeniable truths, we're met with insults and speculation. Few of you have chose to address how we feel about it. No credence or credit is given to that, it seems. We're only doing what you guys would do were the roles reversed. That's how I feel, and if someone that read my entire post wants to discuss that maturely without insulting me to tell me why I'm wrong, I'd like to hear it.

Thanks for reading.

[FlubberPuddy]

I wish the problem was that easily solved, honestly. Let's talk hypothetically for a moment, because I want to engage...

If we take the Night Elf/Nightborne issue back a step and look at this a different way and say, well, what if the Horde had been campaigning for Night Elves for their faction for, let's call them, "reasons". Whether it's lore or simply rule of cool. Hypothetically. That could never happen, right? It even seems silly to suggest. But, Blizzard saw the desire for it, and they decided Nightborne elves would fill that desire of that demographic and please the people. But, that's not what happened. Instead, it backfires. The Horde players proclaim, "This isn't what we asked for!!! They don't fit the Night Elf archetype and we won't rest until the Horde gets it!" But, what they wanted was never going to happen, it simply couldn't. The Night Elves belong to the Alliance, they've aligned with them and there aren't enough outliers to constitute dealing that blow to the Alliance playerbase. Yet still, for years, the Horde players demand a carbon copy of Night Elves. They don't want a darker, skinnier version with tattoos. It simply won't do, they say. And despite Blizzard explaining it, it never stops.

First, thank you for responding in a more cool manner.

The crux of this issue comes from the bold though and it's something that other players/posters have already expressed.

There is NO UNPLAYABLE RACE for the Horde that has continually stuck with them as a group having its own faction identity and ideals and has its story progression for that SPECIFIC group of UNPLAYABLE RACE, doesn't matter that it's minor because we're talking about Allied Races which by their essence will always be minor than the already playable races. Does it have this minor group is shown as often as some of the more popular races for the Horde and more so than some of the lesser represented races of the Horde?

Horde doesn't have a "High Elf" equivalent. And sometimes I feel like this is why it seems to be so hard for some die hard Horde players to understand.

High Elves exist already on the Alliance. They are there for 2 major showings: One at Isle of Thunder/Purge and the other at Suramar. If you're someone that does the major questlines (which Blizzard has said the majority of WoW's players quest and level) then you would at least see these 2 moments wherein Alliance High Elves are showcased. This isn't counting the entirety of Northrend where they're sprinkled in every nook and cranny, and doesn't account either for the quest hubs in Cata where more Alliance High Elf involvement was showcased.

Now this can be excused, because frankly if you play Horde and even if you play a Blood Elf you probably very scarcely see Alliance High Elves at all. That doesn't take away the fact that they have a very known presence on the Alliance.

The reason all this recent (within 1 year) discussion sparked, no, EXPLODED about High Elves is because of the Allied Races system for which everyone and their mother knows (or should know) that Alliance High Elves basically are an Allied Race before Allied Races existed.

Polls player made, would continually have them at the top spot, you don't keep that level of popularity being only a one-sided thing, even Horde players understood (and still understand) what's being asked for all the way back then to now.

Even now, even after the release of Void Elves, High Elves still are highly requested - showing that the audience requesting them didn't get what they wanted with the Void Elves.

And Alliance High Elves still continue to pop up in BfA.

So if the above were true, for a moment, does it show a bit how this looks from a different perspective? The perspective of an "anti-High Elfer"?

This has already happened, multiple times. Someone even made a Reddit thread to troll about it, asking for Alterac Humans on Horde if Alliance want High Elves so much, the response?

The thread was filled with hundreds of upvotes for posts stating things such as, "Sure why not. If it makes sense for them to have em, I see no issue" with many agreeing that'd be a pretty neat idea and what not.

The thread ended up being the complete opposite of the OP trying to start another inflammatory thread. This is because most people understand: "Does this race make sense to make playable for this faction? What have they done for this faction? Are they represented among the faction enough?" All these questions that make Allied Races what they are, the Alliance High Elves check.

Trying to talk about say even Dark Irons, I remember years ago when they were more antagonistic to Alliance then a lot of players assumed they'd be with Horde and people on both sides agreed with that.

So all this has already been happening when the shoe gets put on the other foot. I don't know if you just weren't aware of this or not, or if some of the others here are aware of this or not.

What's actually unbelievable though is anyone who tries to come in here and say that those requesting for Alliance High Elves have no leg to stand on. They do, they very much do, there's more than a mountain of evidence for this in-game alone.

There's no equivalent Horde race that meets the criteria that Alliance High Elves meet, even before Allied Races were a thing. High Elves represent the Alliance faction just as much as Gnomes do pretty much, and as much as Draenei did before they got a whole expansion dedicated to them, and as much as Worgen did out of Cataclysm until Genn was moved more to the forefront.

See ^ all those where these other less represented races got more development is because Blizzard chose it to be that way, just as Blizzard are the ones that choose to showcase and dangle the High Elves around the Alliance continually, and still do in BfA from what I've heard.

That's why when Ion basically went, "Oh my gawddd guise Blood Elves r da High Elves, how can u not c???1?" it makes Alliance players go, "Uh then who the hell are these pale elves y'all keep shoving in our faces?" and Blizzard stays mum after that.

Until the people so incredibly offended by the suggestion of Alliance High Elves becoming playable do get so offended, they should at least try to see that all this High Elf talk isn't happening only because of players.

If nobody who plays WoW talked about Alliance High Elves in WoW, there would still be more Alliance High Elves added to the game irregardless because it's not the players who are making this decision to put them in the Alliance, it's Blizzard.

[Enkrypt]

First, thank you for responding in a more cool manner.

The crux of this issue comes from the bold though and it's something that other players/posters have already expressed.

...

If nobody who plays WoW talked about Alliance High Elves in WoW, there would still be more Alliance High Elves added to the game irregardless because it's not the players who are making this decision to put them in the Alliance, it's Blizzard.

You're welcome. I want to get to the bottom of why we, as Horde players, feel just as strongly.

I read your post twice to really know where you're coming from. I'll try to address some points in order, and I may ask for clarification on some, as well. I am a Horde-only player, and have been that way since TBC, which may limit my scope. Feel free to correct me on anything that's incorrect.

I agree with you about the equivalency factor. Horde doesn't have a sub-faction that is that so closely tied to its identy to mirror the High Elves in the way you describe. So let us ask ourselves, why could that be? My immediate response would be because of the Blood Elves and their evolution throughout the Warcraft games is a rather unique story in regards to their defection. The Blood Elves are the only race as a whole to defect from one faction to the other, right? Are they unique in that regard? I believe they are. It's a reasonable (and verifiable) assertion that not all High Elves wanted to defect to the Horde. So, in an era long before Allied Races, could it be presumed that those Elves who remained with the Alliance were left there for story-telling purposes? I think so. It's more believable that some would remain loyal to the Alliance. Doesn't it serve to provide drama to the story that some Elves simply didn't follow Kael'thas? Absolutely. It makes them feel more like a diverse bunch that had ideals of their own at some point. But it's at this exact point Blizzard made a critical decision based on factors largely unknown to us, the players. What we know is that at that time, when the pro-High Elf discussion began, Blizzard adopted the stance that there are simply too few of them to make them playable for the Alliance. Despite the lack of Allied Races, this was the prevailing desire even then. Alliance players were quite upset at this revelation, and at that point in time, I sympathize with them. If there was ever a time to introduce them as playable, it was then.

However, as the story goes, Blood Elves are now loyal to the Horde and remaining High Elves are splintered into nothing more than a background prop to somewhat remind us from time to time that at one point, this race divided in a very imbalanced way.

There is no other race who shares this trope. Other races have divided, but never to the point of leaving Blue for Red, or vice versa.

It is because of their story as High Elves, and their future as Blood Elves, that they don't have an equivalent.

So let's fast forward...

Why does Blizzard continue to showcase these rebellious High Elves while claiming there aren't enough to be playable?

Some possibilities...

1.) Simply used to provide a memorial and story device to remind and teach new players that at one point, these Elves were with the Alliance.

2.) Nostalgia. Perhaps Blizzard themselves doesn't want to see them completely go.

3.) To tease Alliance players. (Very unlikely)

4.) To set them up for a future story. As boring as Vereesa is, she's not dead. There could come a time where she may not be as stagnant and tiresome a character that could lead the High Elven plight along a different path.

My choice would obviously be the first. It's just what I believe. I don't know if it's because it's cliche or what, it's just he most sound explanation I can think of.

I think the fourth option would be the secondmost likely. For a future we don't yet know.

As for the topic of Void Elves...

I honestly believe it was Blizzard's way of attempting to give the Alliance what they'd been asking for. Often times a company has to choose a happy medium with its customers. If they want to give the Alliance something without taking something they feel belongs to the Horde, it makes sense to compromise. It's a horrible compromise, I agree, but don't forget that a LARGE part of the pro-High Elf agenda was to have an aesthetically pleasing Elven race on the Alliance. It hasn't always been about wanting High Elves, but wanting something that LOOKED like a High/Blood Elf for the Alliance to play. I remember seeing this sentiment more frequently than anything. So with that in mind, I can understand how Blizzard thought Void Elves would work. And to double-dip, fuck it, let's let Alleria-fucking-Windrunner lead them to boot! But that backfired hard, in a sense.

It isn't only happening because of the players. I totally agree. Blizzard is a player in this because they choose to show High Elves, yet won't make them playable. They're also somewhat at fault here, but the diversity of the pro-High Elf movement is also at fault. You guys are so spread out across your reasoning and justification that I, an individual, remain unconvinced. How could you possibly hope to sway Blizzard with such a jumbled bunch of reasons.

I can only come to rest at the thought that High Elves, at this stage, are nothing more than a story-telling vessel. I can't comment on their numbers, or the numbers of ANY race in the game. Hell, it's a fantasy game, who can say there are 42,337 Blood Elves and 1,604 High Elves? No one. At some point in video games, you just gotta let it go or take what's being given. I think we're at that point, frankly. Not because I said so or any other player said so, but because for some reason, that's how Blizzard feels. Some people will inevitably remain unhappy, and perhaps they believe keeping them unplayable serves more good than it harms.

My apologies for the wall of text. I'm just to the point where I don't believe my thoughts on the matter can be conveyed briefly. Thanks for reading.

[Gurluas]

They're called Void Elves. They have different skintones, hairstyles, heritage armor, jokes, flirts, story, leader, etc, etc. It's almost as if Blizzard intended them to be the Alliance's version of the blood elf, and the Nightborne is the Horde's version of a Night Elf. What a strange coincidence.

Except they're Blood elves worse than Blood elves who embrace a dark and extremely dangerous power while corrupted much worse than the Fel corrupted Belves back in TBC. It's the exact opposite of what High elf fans wanted, they wanted the High elves who rejected dark magics and immoral practices and found a new path for their people. Not to mention, Void elves is the most limiting race in the game in terms of RP.

You have to be a Belf, You have to have been someone studying the Void, you had to go to Telogrus rift and get raped by Void tentacles, and you have to like it and deal with whispers. It's super limiting, compare it to say...Night elves.

You can be a Druid protecting nature, a Sentinel defending their home and going to war, a haughty Highborne or a renegade who wants to study the Arcane, a renegade rogue not caring about nature, a Priestess of Elune/The Light, etc.

My biggest problem with Void elves is how it not only forces you to be worse than Belves were in TBC, but it forces you into this limited race.
I basically have to RP not being a Void elf at all to make ANY of my concepts work.

[Enkrypt]

Except they're Blood elves worse than Blood elves who embrace a dark and extremely dangerous power while corrupted much worse than the Fel corrupted Belves back in TBC. It's the exact opposite of what High elf fans wanted, they wanted the High elves who rejected dark magics and immoral practices and found a new path for their people. Not to mention, Void elves is the most limiting race in the game in terms of RP.

You have to be a Belf, You have to have been someone studying the Void, you had to go to Telogrus rift and get raped by Void tentacles, and you have to like it and deal with whispers. It's super limiting, compare it to say...Night elves.

You can be a Druid protecting nature, a Sentinel defending their home and going to war, a haughty Highborne or a renegade who wants to study the Arcane, a renegade rogue not caring about nature, a Priestess of Elune/The Light, etc.

My biggest problem with Void elves is how it not only forces you to be worse than Belves were in TBC, but it forces you into this limited race.
I basically have to RP not being a Void elf at all to make ANY of my concepts work.

Well, when you put it like that, I see your point much better. I don't RP, so at times I forget how things can impact story-telling.

[Byleth]

There is NO UNPLAYABLE RACE for the Horde that has continually stuck with them as a group having its own faction identity and ideals and has its story progression for that SPECIFIC group of UNPLAYABLE RACE, doesn't matter that it's minor because we're talking about Allied Races which by their essence will always be minor than the already playable races. Does it have this minor group is shown as often as some of the more popular races for the Horde and more so than some of the lesser represented races of the Horde?

Horde doesn't have a "High Elf" equivalent. And sometimes I feel like this is why it seems to be so hard for some die hard Horde players to understand.

Ogres say hello!

You know, that ever present, since Vanilla unplayable Horde race...

[Enkrypt]

Ogres say hello!

You know, that ever present, since Vanilla unplayable Horde race...

It would be equivalent in context if, say, the Alliance had Mok'nathal as a playable race but Horde didn't have Ogres.

[Sigxy]

Ogres say hello!

You know, that ever present, since Vanilla unplayable Horde race...

Not to mention that Ogres were around since Warcraft 1. High Elves weren't introduced until Warcraft 2. o_o


https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20150811151308

[Gurluas]

Well, when you put it like that, I see your point much better. I don't RP, so at times I forget how things can impact story-telling.

Yeah, it's why I wouldn't mind something like Snow elves, where most High elves got hit by an Arcane bomb and somehow got crystallized like in Crystalsong forest and gained special Arcane abilities and became crystalline. And to make it more interesting becoming Arcane creatures could make their Arcane addiction worse, forcing them to seek out a source of Arcane instead of meditating, but still refusing to do what the Blood elves did, thus having their story arc being their search for Arcane magic.

I would have been fine with that even if it wasn't normal blue-eyed pale-skinned High elves, because it didn't limit what you could be.

They'd look something in the vein of this.





So the problem for me isn't that Void elves aren't fair skinned blonde Elves, it's that they're a very specific sect of Blood elves who willingly took a dark path, which severely limits what kind of character you can do RP-wise, and that still locks out the Alliance High elves from being playable. The Snow elves would have been the Silver Covenant, and they wouldn't have had any choice in the matter. Thus you get a new race distinct enough from High elves, while making High elf fans happy since they get what they wanted, the Alliance High elf group fully playable without compromising what they are.

[Obelisk Kai]

*points to everyone who has responded to you and you dismissed*

I'm asking you, not anybody else. And those who provide what they think is evidence has to be certain it will stand up to scrutiny. So far, nothing has. Yesterday someone linked an image purporting to 'prove' that Nightborne and Night Elves are identical. That was evidence I rapidly dismantled and proved meaningless.

Factually false. A retcon isn't needed. A retcon would be an easier way to handle playable but not the only way ... I have even stated one that doesn't require a retcon.

The Alliance High Elves are a nearly dead race incapable of sustaining a major presence in the game on the level of any of the other playable races. I can cite multiple sources supporting this fact, including two interviews conducted in the past year that said it flat out. For Alliance High Elves to be a viable race of any sort, a retcon would be needed to ensure that they had that presence similar to the other races within the Alliance and Horde.

You state it is factually false, but factually here seems to be just an adjective to give your opinion unjustified weight.

Hell ... "High Elf" summit ... part of the reason they aren't playable is there are many smaller factions of High Elves. The High Elves of Stormwind are not the High Elves of Dalaran or those who hang out in other places. They could have a group of them get together ... even maybe have Blood Elves rebels join and retake High Elves ... seriously, if you think the only way is retcon, you aren't fully understanding the topic.

You still believe in the High Elves of Stormwind? The mythical population of High Elves that live in Stormwind? The only source for that was the RPG and that was ruled non canon. The extremely few High Elves who wander the streets now are usually paired with Void Elves. They certainly weren't there before the Void Elves arrived.

In fact, given that you are proposing 'all the groups of the High Elves get together' I can safely say I fully understand the topic. The problem is you refuse to face the fact you were repeatedly told, they are almost all dead. There are no 'groups' of High Elves to get together, there is really just a few High Elf Mages in Dalaran and the Hunters of the Silver Covenant and a few in that hut in the hinterlands. That's it. The retcon is inventing these other groups you've mentioned to bolster the Alliance High Elves decimated population.

*points to this very topic* Thanks for pretty much stating you didn't read anything posted to you.

This topic didn't demand arguments. This topic was for people to put forward fan fiction. A drawing of an Elf with different hairstyles is not an argument. An argument is something which would prove that High Elves are a distinct group worthy of being a playable race in the game. Everything put forward so far could be managed by a Blood Elf on a bad hair day.

Translation: I can't think of something therefor it's X. Pretty much sums up your entire "objectivity"

Objectivity relies on the facts as they are, not as you wish them to be. Everything I use as evidence is sourced, from in game, from an interview, from something official.

All you've done is say I'm wrong and offered nothing in support of that beyond your opinion. And no, once again, the fan fiction making up this thread's 'proposals' doesn't count.

- - - Updated - - -

Last time and this time were both done by a Blizzard employee. Both have the same weight unless they contradict each other, at which point the higher ranking employee "wins". This isn't that case, though. You're being incredibly dense and, frankly, immature, with your refusal to admit that plans can and often do change.

Plans can and do change but anyone who would value the word of the forum janitor as equivalent to a team lead is grasping at straws.

Witty. Nobody asked for void elves. Nobody wanted void elves. Many people wanted, and still want, high elves.

You know why you got Void Elves. You got Void Elves as they were an attempt to give you a High Elf variant without giving you High Elves aka Blood Elves, a Horde race. If you want to play a traditional High Elf so much, the Horde is waiting for you. If you can't stand the Horde, there's a High Elf variant waiting for you. Want to play the Horde race exactly as it is on Alliance...that's being greedy.

Tauren and Highmountain tauren have next to no difference between them, other than their horns.
Their culture is the exact same. Their themes are the exact same. But they're separate "races".

And they are also on the same faction as their parent race. That's why like the Mag'har Orcs, Lightforged Draenei and Dark Iron Dwarves they are little more than extra customization sets for those parent races. Nightborne and Void Elves crossed the faction wall, that's why more effort was put into separating them from their parent races. It's funny, Blizzard have cited the faction divide several times now as to why you aren't getting Alliance High Elves and yet you persist in refusing to recognise it as a factor. As you did when you drew a comparison with two races on the same side.

Also, yes, blood elves are high elves, but a high elf is not necessarily a blood elf. That's like saying vowels are letters of the alphabet. That doesn't mean all the letters in the alphabet are vowels. Pro-high-elf want the consonants, not the vowels.

A High Elf is a Blood Elf with a different political opinion. Identical in terms of look, theme and fantasy. They offer nothing to the game that is not already offered by Horde Blood Elves. Void Elves have a unique theme and fantasy as well as a modified look. And just because pro High Elfers want it doesn't mean much. The price to faction diversity is just too high to accommodate that desire. That's why you got Void Elves. Nobody asked for Void Elves but it is the best Blizzard is ever going to do for you.

And you have yet to address the point. My point was their culture splintered at that moment and became almost polar opposites of one-another. Just like the culture of humans and Vrykul.

The Nightborne did not change their culture. The Night Elves made a conscious effort to do so to turn away from a destructive path. The Void Elves didn't change their culture, they were cut off from it by their transformation. They are transformed former Blood Elves, and hence former High Elves. Their culture is High Elven, but darkened by the void whereas the Blood/High Elven is increasingly under the holy light.

I don't get the comparison with the Humans or the Vrykul, I don't agree there is a match.

Except the nightborne have nothing to do with this 'high elf' discussion. Their situation is different than the high elf situation.

Void Elves are the thalassian elves the Alliance got and are almost certainly the only ones they are going to get. After all, why create Void Elves if they ever had any intention of giving the Alliance High Elves? The only comparable race to the Void Elves is the Nightborne, who also have a parent race on the other faction. Void Elves have been differentiated from their Blood/High Elf parent race as much as Nightborne have been from Night Elves. As a result, neither race breaks the faction wall as some have alleged, the allegation trying to prove that as the faction wall is already broken they may as well give the Alliance High Elves. I am demonstrating that is a folly by examining the parallels between Void Elves and Nightborne and why they aren't a precedent for Alliance High Elves.

Highmountain tauren don't even have this "political affiliation difference" yet they got their own "allied race" treatment. Having different political affiliations is more than enough to warrant a separate race. Especially if this other race works with the opposing faction. "Faction identity" was already thrown out the window with pandaren, and even worse now with void/blood elves having the exact same model and animations.

Everything you have typed in this final paragraph is incorrect.

I discussed Highmountain Tauren earlier, that they are on the same faction as the Tauren.

The Pandaren counter-example is regarded as a mistake precisely because it undermined faction diversity. You use the Pandaren as if to say ' the wall already has a hole in it, another one won't matter' which is a ridiculous statement.

Blizzard knows Pandaren put a hole in the faction wall. They clearly regret that. The lesson they have learned is to not put another, far bigger hole in the wall. Or do you seriously argue that because Blizzard made a mistake in the past they are obligated to repeat that mistake on far bigger scale?

And a difference of political opinion, which you cite and which is the sole difference between the Alliance High Elf and the playable Blood Elf, is nowhere near enough to justify making one of the Horde's playable races, a Horde for the past eleven years, neutral. The Pandaren were designed as neutral and implemented as neutral at the very least.

And if Void Elves undermined the faction wall, you'd be satisfied with them and wouldn't be here saying they weren't good enough. This proves that it is the theme, the traditional tolkienesque High Elf fantasy, that is being sought by some (and the pale white skin by a lot of others, source: Unofficial void elf discussion threads on official forums where posters asked for normal skin on Void Elves as a 'compromise') that is the key. THAT fantasy is the fantasy and theme of the Blood Elves. It must, and frankly it WILL, remain unique to the Horde.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

*Sigh* you realise you are wrong.



Edit: Muh immersion / faction identity is all BS.

We been knew

Minimal cosmetic changes + an unique idle pose= Nightborne, that's just what they are, and that is okay for almost everyone. But if we apply the same logic for playable High Elves? Utterly unfathomable, how dare you.

??

And lol, yet another High Elf NPC, looking the helfiest possible with that unused Sunwell cloth recolor.

http://bfa.wowhead.com/npc=143380/yvera-dawnwing

She's on Stormgarde, as the portal trainer next to the portal to Boralus.

Like Blizz can't help themselves from just adding more High Elves.

[FlubberPuddy]

You're welcome. I want to get to the bottom of why we, as Horde players, feel just as strongly.

I read your post twice to really know where you're coming from. I'll try to address some points in order, and I may ask for clarification on some, as well. I am a Horde-only player, and have been that way since TBC, which may limit my scope. Feel free to correct me on anything that's incorrect.

I agree with you about the equivalency factor. Horde doesn't have a sub-faction that is that so closely tied to its identy to mirror the High Elves in the way you describe. So let us ask ourselves, why could that be? My immediate response would be because of the Blood Elves and their evolution throughout the Warcraft games is a rather unique story in regards to their defection. The Blood Elves are the only race as a whole to defect from one faction to the other, right? Are they unique in that regard? I believe they are. It's a reasonable (and verifiable) assertion that not all High Elves wanted to defect to the Horde. So, in an era long before Allied Races, could it be presumed that those Elves who remained with the Alliance were left there for story-telling purposes? I think so. It's more believable that some would remain loyal to the Alliance. Doesn't it serve to provide drama to the story that some Elves simply didn't follow Kael'thas? Absolutely. It makes them feel more like a diverse bunch that had ideals of their own at some point. But it's at this exact point Blizzard made a critical decision based on factors largely unknown to us, the players. What we know is that at that time, when the pro-High Elf discussion began, Blizzard adopted the stance that there are simply too few of them to make them playable for the Alliance. Despite the lack of Allied Races, this was the prevailing desire even then. Alliance players were quite upset at this revelation, and at that point in time, I sympathize with them. If there was ever a time to introduce them as playable, it was then.

However, as the story goes, Blood Elves are now loyal to the Horde and remaining High Elves are splintered into nothing more than a background prop to somewhat remind us from time to time that at one point, this race divided in a very imbalanced way.

There is no other race who shares this trope. Other races have divided, but never to the point of leaving Blue for Red, or vice versa.

It is because of their story as High Elves, and their future as Blood Elves, that they don't have an equivalent.

You're right it does serve as story-telling purposes, but as pointed out by others and by you even agreeing, there's no other race or group that shares this trope yes, but the more unique thing too is there is no other race that serves this amount of spotlight either that is unplayable by its parent faction.

And we have seen what Blizzard can do when they want to not focus on certain groups or characters anymore: They straight up either 404 them like Medan like or they just leave them in their specific expansion(s) states to rot. Neither have been done with the Alliance High Elves nor Silver Covenant which are exclusively a group of Alliance aligned High Elves.

Blizzard have also never said, "These High Elves here are just for story purposes, we don't make every race that's part of the Alliance or Horde with the intention to be playable".

In fact, they've said the opposite, we have commentary from Blizzard themselves and interviewers who share that Blizzard has made such comments as "nothing is off the table" and "they're surprisingly open to about which races can be made playable, I don't think they've strictly ruled out anything." etc etc.

Ion could've also taken the moment in his response to clarify that, to clarify that not every race that is a part of the Alliance or Horde will be a candidate for being playable. He even threw in a "maybe in the future, but no plans as of now." Some will call this a platitude, some won't. Honestly the only way to be sure about it is waiting and seeing if playable Alliance High Elves come to pass or not.

So let's fast forward...

Why does Blizzard continue to showcase these rebellious High Elves while claiming there aren't enough to be playable?

Some possibilities...

1.) Simply used to provide a memorial and story device to remind and teach new players that at one point, these Elves were with the Alliance.

2.) Nostalgia. Perhaps Blizzard themselves doesn't want to see them completely go.

3.) To tease Alliance players. (Very unlikely)

4.) To set them up for a future story. As boring as Vereesa is, she's not dead. There could come a time where she may not be as stagnant and tiresome a character that could lead the High Elven plight along a different path.

My choice would obviously be the first. It's just what I believe. I don't know if it's because it's cliche or what, it's just he most sound explanation I can think of.

I think the fourth option would be the secondmost likely. For a future we don't yet know.

I like this list, I agree that these are all plausible possibilities. For me, I think the fourth option (obviously) as its the only one with the conclusion leading to playable High Elves. The reasons I think this though is because Alliance High Elves have much more story and presence to them than a "back drop prop race" does (For instance: OGRES! But I will get to that later) and even in BfA are still shown to be present members of the Alliance, even participating as a member of the Alliance Island Expedition team which are said to consist of the major members of their respective factions.

But not just that, they are still the only group that is in this weird limbo of more elevated than just a prop race yet not the right time to be playable due to Void Elves just releasing (we have to factor this into account, regardless of anyone's stance on the matter). It's like one of those "born too early, born too late" memes.

As for the topic of Void Elves...

I honestly believe it was Blizzard's way of attempting to give the Alliance what they'd been asking for. Often times a company has to choose a happy medium with its customers. If they want to give the Alliance something without taking something they feel belongs to the Horde, it makes sense to compromise. It's a horrible compromise, I agree, but don't forget that a LARGE part of the pro-High Elf agenda was to have an aesthetically pleasing Elven race on the Alliance. It hasn't always been about wanting High Elves, but wanting something that LOOKED like a High/Blood Elf for the Alliance to play. I remember seeing this sentiment more frequently than anything. So with that in mind, I can understand how Blizzard thought Void Elves would work. And to double-dip, fuck it, let's let Alleria-fucking-Windrunner lead them to boot! But that backfired hard, in a sense.

Okay, I want to take a moment to examine this bold for a bit, because it keeps being continually said yet I don't think people are understanding a few things.

1) It is taken by some anti-helf peeps that "Ion has continually said High Elves can't be playable so they won't be" etc etc, right? Devs constantly apparently repeat this so anti-helf peeps say this is what is TRUE.

2) Now when it's come to talking about the Void Elves, we have seen the same developer and other Blizzard employees state and say these things constantly about the Void Elves:

a. They were not based on player feedback, they were not something that existed before, they were something new and cool the artists wanted to do and got excited about. (Shani Edwards, Blizzard Producer)

b. They were to give something like a Blood Elf to the Alliance (Ion Hazzikostas, Game Director)

c. Storywriters from the new Three Sisters comic talk about how Alleria has to lead these elves that come from "what is now Blood Elf society". (too lazy to re-link, it's in a former post)

So, on one hand some of you anti-helf peeps say "hey Blizzard has repeatedly said this so it must be this" yet then go on to also say "Void Elves are your High Elves" when Blizzard has also repeatedly said, "hey these Void Elves are Blood Elves".

Do you see the hypocrisy or double-standard here? I'm not saying it's intentionally done because I doubt many of those who say what you bolded actually realize it.

But if you're someone who's going to take the stance that "Blizzard is repeatedly saying this so it must be true" then you must also realize that they've repeatedly said that Void Elves are Blood Elves so that must be true as well.

If that must be taken as true as well then getting Blood Elves is the complete opposite of what people wanting High Elves asked for in the first place, and thus it cannot be "What Alliance has asked for" any more than saying that Ogres have been added to the game on the Alliance with KT Humans since Rexxar's updated model is a half-ogre/half-orc which comes from the KT model, so go play your "Ogres" "the Alliance is waiting for you."

It just doesn't compute. You bring the argument down to the shallowness of the model, of which I and others repeatedly have said that if High Elves were swept up into becoming Void Elves then I wouldn't be here having this conversation. Because then you can say, "ok this is the future of Alliance High Elves going forward."

As you previously pointed out, they still exist, separately from Void Elves, and still have Vereesa as a prominent leader. Story possibility in the future? Probably, but we won't know till we get there, just as nobody knew about going to Argus, nobody knew about Void Elves, nobody knew how Alleria and Turalyon were going to come back, etc etc.

It isn't only happening because of the players. I totally agree. Blizzard is a player in this because they choose to show High Elves, yet won't make them playable. They're also somewhat at fault here, but the diversity of the pro-High Elf movement is also at fault. You guys are so spread out across your reasoning and justification that I, an individual, remain unconvinced. How could you possibly hope to sway Blizzard with such a jumbled bunch of reasons.

It doesn't matter that the playerbase doesn't have a unified consensus on every little detail that comes to making High Elves playable. Look at Class Design: there's no unified agreements between every single player of a specific class yet Blizzard can reach the consensus' they do by looking at what is most often said and seeing if that matches up with their design intents for the class.

Ultimately it's on Blizzard on how they wish, if they wish, to implement playable Alliance High Elves. All we know for now is they haven't done that, and all we as players who wish for it to happen can do is let them know our ideas of how they can potentially happen.

We don't all as individuals need to come to a 100% consensus, we just need to let Blizzard know individually what we desire and maybe suggest how it can be done. They are the ones who will sift through the feedback and see what can be done IF they want it to be done.

That's the purpose of community feedback and it's something Blizzard has always done and continues to do not just with this, but can be seen with every aspect of their game. Do Mythic Raiders have a consensus of how Mythic Raiding should be done? Heck no, I've seen people request that it should be flexible and not strictly set to 20 player, does this stop Blizzard from doing it how they want? Of course not, because everything - just as it is here - is a suggestion, the choices of which to take or not ultimately rest with Blizzard.

I can only come to rest at the thought that High Elves, at this stage, are nothing more than a story-telling vessel. I can't comment on their numbers, or the numbers of ANY race in the game. Hell, it's a fantasy game, who can say there are 42,337 Blood Elves and 1,604 High Elves? No one. At some point in video games, you just gotta let it go or take what's being given. I think we're at that point, frankly. Not because I said so or any other player said so, but because for some reason, that's how Blizzard feels. Some people will inevitably remain unhappy, and perhaps they believe keeping them unplayable serves more good than it harms.

My apologies for the wall of text. I'm just to the point where I don't believe my thoughts on the matter can be conveyed briefly. Thanks for reading.

I think for sure, that right now, as Blizzard has said: There's no possibility of High Elves happening anytime soon at all, least not during BFA for sure.

Some, like you may think it's a done deal and won't ever happen, sure that's completely valid.

Others, like me, think they're going to be added much much much later, when they get more story progression to them or we get to a point in WoW when there are more similarities than differences being propped up.

I don't mind this wall of text because at least you're coming at it from a point of trying to understand and not to be inflammatory. Also you don't repeat yourself a thousand times like Obelisk does.

- - - Updated - - -

Ogres say hello!

You know, that ever present, since Vanilla unplayable Horde race...

Orly? C'mon dude, did you only read the REALLY BIG BOLD and not the underlining?

Show me then, I'll wait. Show me proof that there is a Silver Covenant equivalent of Ogres in the Horde, that are the same band of Ogres that go through the expansions alongside the Horde and have gained story progression for that specific band of Ogres.

Otherwise you just tried to look like a smart ass, but failed in your attempt.

EDIT: Bolded so you read the important bits.

- - - Updated - - -

We been knew

Minimal cosmetic changes + an unique idle pose= Nightborne, that's just what they are, and that is okay for almost everyone. But if we apply the same logic for playable High Elves? Utterly unfathomable, how dare you.

??

And lol, yet another High Elf NPC, looking the helfiest possible with that unused Sunwell cloth recolor.

http://bfa.wowhead.com/npc=143380/yvera-dawnwing

She's on Stormgarde, as the portal trainer next to the portal to Boralus.

Like Blizz can't help themselves from just adding more High Elves.

Y'know what I find interesting about this is that the file names for the greetings and such are specifically listed as "High Elf" but they're just the Night Elf stuff aren't they? Don't know why they couldn't label it "Night Elf" then, as the combat stuff they have labeled as "Blood Elf".

Unless I guess the actual NightElfStandardNPCx is really specific things to Night Elves?

Anyways, just a weird thing I noticed

[Ielenia]

Plans can and do change but anyone who would value the word of the forum janitor as equivalent to a team lead is grasping at straws.

I'm sorry you have such a demeaning view of the 'community manager' job position. The only one "grasping at straws" here is you. Unless they're contradicting each other, both have equal value when communicating with the public as an official Blizzard representative. In this case, they're not contradicting each other.

And again: plans can and often do change. Anything else you try to add after that is meaningless and irrelevant to the point at hand.

You know why you got Void Elves. You got Void Elves as they were an attempt to give you a High Elf variant without giving you High Elves aka Blood Elves, a Horde race.

Except we didn't get high elves, we got blood elves. We went to blood elf lands, rescue a group of blood elves from the void. Blood elves, mind you, that were expelled from Silvermoon, a blood elf city. At no point high elves are even mentioned anywhere in the quest line or any other in-game mention. The "high elf" part was added just by word of mount from Blizzard employees to try to "satisfy" the pro-high-elf group.

And they are also on the same faction as their parent race. That's why like the Mag'har Orcs, Lightforged Draenei and Dark Iron Dwarves they are little more than extra customization sets for those parent races. Nightborne and Void Elves crossed the faction wall, that's why more effort was put into separating them from their parent races. It's funny, Blizzard have cited the faction divide several times now as to why you aren't getting Alliance High Elves and yet you persist in refusing to recognise it as a factor. As you did when you drew a comparison with two races on the same side.

That's BS. One, because the Highmountain tauren's huge horns are much more immediately noticeable than the darker skin and/or hair color of an armored void elf. Two, because the blood and void elves still have the exact same silhouette and the exact same animations. And three, because you can't attack someone in your faction unless you're in a free-for-all zone, at which point you're supposed to attack them.

Also, before I forget: players of the same faction have blue/green names and outlines. Players of the opposite faction have orange/red names. It's actually near impossible to mistake someone's faction alignment.

A High Elf is a Blood Elf with a different political opinion. Identical in terms of look, theme and fantasy. They offer nothing to the game that is not already offered by Horde Blood Elves.

So are the Highmountain tauren. What do they offer to the game that is not already offered by the already existing tauren race?

Void Elves have a unique theme and fantasy as well as a modified look.

Then why Blizzard didn't make the void elves be high elves, instead of blood elves? Why couldn't we go save a high elf researcher and his/her team of high elves in non-Horde lands? Perhaps in Dalaran, with the rift of the void being contained until the player and Alleria arrive to deal with it? But no, we had to go into blood elf land, to save a blood elf and his team of blood elves.

The Nightborne did not change their culture. The Night Elves made a conscious effort to do so to turn away from a destructive path.

It doesn't matter who did it, what matters is that it happened.

The Void Elves didn't change their culture,

They didn't. They still keep their same culture.

Void Elves are the thalassian elves the Alliance got and are almost certainly the only ones they are going to get. After all, why create Void Elves if they ever had any intention of giving the Alliance High Elves? The only comparable race to the Void Elves is the Nightborne, who also have a parent race on the other faction. Void Elves have been differentiated from their Blood/High Elf parent race as much as Nightborne have been from Night Elves. As a result, neither race breaks the faction wall as some have alleged, the allegation trying to prove that as the faction wall is already broken they may as well give the Alliance High Elves. I am demonstrating that is a folly by examining the parallels between Void Elves and Nightborne and why they aren't a precedent for Alliance High Elves.

Except void elves are not high elves. They're blood elves.

And a difference of political opinion, which you cite and which is the sole difference between the Alliance High Elf and the playable Blood Elf, is nowhere near enough to justify making one of the Horde's playable races, a Horde for the past eleven years, neutral. The Pandaren were designed as neutral and implemented as neutral at the very least.

Then they should have made the high elves different. Don't give us blood elves like they did.

And if Void Elves undermined the faction wall, you'd be satisfied with them and wouldn't be here saying they weren't good enough.

Geez, what a load of... incorrect statements. Absolutely no one is asking for high elves with the intention to "undermine the faction wall".

This proves that it is the theme, the traditional tolkienesque High Elf fantasy, that is being sought by some (and the pale white skin by a lot of others, source: Unofficial void elf discussion threads on official forums where posters asked for normal skin on Void Elves as a 'compromise') that is the key.

Except you completely miss the point of that request. I bolded the real key word there. Compromise. Do you know what a 'compromise' is? Basically, in this case: "you won't give us what we're asking for? At least give us this other thing, please, so we can pretend you gave us what we asked for?"

[Enkrypt]

You're right it does serve as story-telling purposes, but as pointed out by others and by you even agreeing, there's no other race or group that shares this trope yes, but the more unique thing too is there is no other race that serves this amount of spotlight either that is unplayable by its parent faction.

And we have seen what Blizzard can do when they want to not focus on certain groups or characters anymore: They straight up either 404 them like Medan like or they just leave them in their specific expansion(s) states to rot. Neither have been done with the Alliance High Elves nor Silver Covenant which are exclusively a group of Alliance aligned High Elves.

Blizzard have also never said, "These High Elves here are just for story purposes, we don't make every race that's part of the Alliance or Horde with the intention to be playable".

In fact, they've said the opposite, we have commentary from Blizzard themselves and interviewers who share that Blizzard has made such comments as "nothing is off the table" and "they're surprisingly open to about which races can be made playable, I don't think they've strictly ruled out anything." etc etc.

Ion could've also taken the moment in his response to clarify that, to clarify that not every race that is a part of the Alliance or Horde will be a candidate for being playable. He even threw in a "maybe in the future, but no plans as of now." Some will call this a platitude, some won't. Honestly the only way to be sure about it is waiting and seeing if playable Alliance High Elves come to pass or not.



I like this list, I agree that these are all plausible possibilities. For me, I think the fourth option (obviously) as its the only one with the conclusion leading to playable High Elves. The reasons I think this though is because Alliance High Elves have much more story and presence to them than a "back drop prop race" does (For instance: OGRES! But I will get to that later) and even in BfA are still shown to be present members of the Alliance, even participating as a member of the Alliance Island Expedition team which are said to consist of the major members of their respective factions.

But not just that, they are still the only group that is in this weird limbo of more elevated than just a prop race yet not the right time to be playable due to Void Elves just releasing (we have to factor this into account, regardless of anyone's stance on the matter). It's like one of those "born too early, born too late" memes.



Okay, I want to take a moment to examine this bold for a bit, because it keeps being continually said yet I don't think people are understanding a few things.

1) It is taken by some anti-helf peeps that "Ion has continually said High Elves can't be playable so they won't be" etc etc, right? Devs constantly apparently repeat this so anti-helf peeps say this is what is TRUE.

2) Now when it's come to talking about the Void Elves, we have seen the same developer and other Blizzard employees state and say these things constantly about the Void Elves:

a. They were not based on player feedback, they were not something that existed before, they were something new and cool the artists wanted to do and got excited about. (Shani Edwards, Blizzard Producer)

b. They were to give something like a Blood Elf to the Alliance (Ion Hazzikostas, Game Director)

c. Storywriters from the new Three Sisters comic talk about how Alleria has to lead these elves that come from "what is now Blood Elf society". (too lazy to re-link, it's in a former post)

So, on one hand some of you anti-helf peeps say "hey Blizzard has repeatedly said this so it must be this" yet then go on to also say "Void Elves are your High Elves" when Blizzard has also repeatedly said, "hey these Void Elves are Blood Elves".

Do you see the hypocrisy or double-standard here? I'm not saying it's intentionally done because I doubt many of those who say what you bolded actually realize it.

But if you're someone who's going to take the stance that "Blizzard is repeatedly saying this so it must be true" then you must also realize that they've repeatedly said that Void Elves are Blood Elves so that must be true as well.

If that must be taken as true as well then getting Blood Elves is the complete opposite of what people wanting High Elves asked for in the first place, and thus it cannot be "What Alliance has asked for" any more than saying that Ogres have been added to the game on the Alliance with KT Humans since Rexxar's updated model is a half-ogre/half-orc which comes from the KT model, so go play your "Ogres" "the Alliance is waiting for you."

It just doesn't compute. You bring the argument down to the shallowness of the model, of which I and others repeatedly have said that if High Elves were swept up into becoming Void Elves then I wouldn't be here having this conversation. Because then you can say, "ok this is the future of Alliance High Elves going forward."

As you previously pointed out, they still exist, separately from Void Elves, and still have Vereesa as a prominent leader. Story possibility in the future? Probably, but we won't know till we get there, just as nobody knew about going to Argus, nobody knew about Void Elves, nobody knew how Alleria and Turalyon were going to come back, etc etc.



It doesn't matter that the playerbase doesn't have a unified consensus on every little detail that comes to making High Elves playable. Look at Class Design: there's no unified agreements between every single player of a specific class yet Blizzard can reach the consensus' they do by looking at what is most often said and seeing if that matches up with their design intents for the class.

Ultimately it's on Blizzard on how they wish, if they wish, to implement playable Alliance High Elves. All we know for now is they haven't done that, and all we as players who wish for it to happen can do is let them know our ideas of how they can potentially happen.

We don't all as individuals need to come to a 100% consensus, we just need to let Blizzard know individually what we desire and maybe suggest how it can be done. They are the ones who will sift through the feedback and see what can be done IF they want it to be done.

That's the purpose of community feedback and it's something Blizzard has always done and continues to do not just with this, but can be seen with every aspect of their game. Do Mythic Raiders have a consensus of how Mythic Raiding should be done? Heck no, I've seen people request that it should be flexible and not strictly set to 20 player, does this stop Blizzard from doing it how they want? Of course not, because everything - just as it is here - is a suggestion, the choices of which to take or not ultimately rest with Blizzard.



I think for sure, that right now, as Blizzard has said: There's no possibility of High Elves happening anytime soon at all, least not during BFA for sure.

Some, like you may think it's a done deal and won't ever happen, sure that's completely valid.

Others, like me, think they're going to be added much much much later, when they get more story progression to them or we get to a point in WoW when there are more similarities than differences being propped up.

I don't mind this wall of text because at least you're coming at it from a point of trying to understand and not to be inflammatory. Also you don't repeat yourself a thousand times like Obelisk does.

I only ever saw the Silver Covenant as the mirror of the Sunreavers. After our brief back and forth accompanied by light research, as well as the Ogre/Mok'nathal situation, I can empathize with why some of you feel the way you do.

And yes, you're not wrong. When Blizzard wants to nix something, they usually don't pull any punches. The fact that the Silver Covenant has remained relevant as an Alliance sub-faction for ten years does lend to the theory that they have intentions for them at some point. But then, you have characters like Tyrande who have existed since day one to be about as useless as a thing could be. It's hard to divine a pattern from Blizzard's story-telling. It is very possible, however, that Vereesa's return to the recent story and her entaglement with Sylvanas could shed some light on this. I also believe the story of the Child of Light and Shadow is going to really unfold in BFA. However, there are other plausible theories, too. Some of which are far-reaching into the speculation department where some propose the Blood Elves will represent Light, and the Void Elves under Alleria will represent Shadow giving us the dichotomy of Light vs. Dark in the expansion(s) to come which could potentially leave the Silver Covenant Elves once more on the shelf. This could also be the reason the Void Elves are what they are, to serve that purpose of being the Blood Elves new mirror.

You are right, Blizzard has never said those words to strictly frame High Elves as story elements. But if we both agree that actions speak louder than words, it certainly could be concluded that is their purpose. Wouldn't you agree? After all, the only real commentary we have heard from Blizzard indicates they are not fond of making them playable. It doesn't seem to be something they're keen on. If they're keeping it a secret for a future addition, I'd be inclined to believe no statements would be made about their future whatsoever. Blizzard doesn't usually kiss and tell, in my experience. Of course my experience is limited to myself, and I don't claim to know it all. But some credence must be given to their official statement. It may not feel good, but it is their official word. Even though they may be wrong, this is their product, and their word, whether we like it or not, is what we have to accept. I'm making a solid attempt to understand for the first time. But to that token, it should be asked of your side as well to try and grasp why we lean on Blizzard's words, even though they may be wrong or unfair. Even if you don't agree in the slightest, make an attempt to see why it is we believe Blizzard's word on this matter shouldn't be so easily shrugged off. But, on that matter, I digress.

___

On the note of Void Elves being comprised of only Blood Elves, is that something we that can be supported by a statement or a source? I was under the impression some High Elves had also taken up the flag of the Void. If not, though, and they are exclusively Blood Elves, I think that results in two things:

1. A shit compromise for the Alliance. For those interested in more than just the aesthetic, you guys wanted traditional, addiction free Elves. I understand now that Void Elves don't fulfill that.

2. A shit compromise for the Horde, too. The Horde isn't exactly a fan of traitorous Elves, I'm sure. I'm not going to start RPing here or anything, but it's pretty garbage to think that Blood Elves, finally curving their addiction, would turn their back on their faction AND adopt a worse addiction.

That just doesn't compute, and I think Blizzard should feel ridiculous. But meh, some people like them, I guess. I was incorrect to label them as the Alliance's compromise for High Elves. Somewhat aesthetically, being purple and all, but not in any way true to their heritage.

___

It is a peculiar thing how they've handled it, I must admit. Until now, I don't think I ever sympathized with your side of the discussion.

I never really tried to put myself in your shoes. I was always so adamant with Horde pride and fandom that it was a hard pill to swallow to sympathize with the "enemy". Death threats and insults back and forth only exacerbated that situation, as well. But I'll humbly admit that I was wrong in my earlier endeavors to most of you. I still don't respect those on your side that wished awful, inhumane things on individuals in the opposition and Ion, but not all of you were acting in kind. I wasn't the most respectful opposition in this matter, and for that I apologize.

I understand the plight now.

That being said, I still believe in the faction identity and how it must be kept. And just because I say that doesn't mean I agree with Pandaren. They're implementaion was awful, and I get the feeling they don't belong anywhere. With Blizzard's remarks on the matter, I can only presume they feel like they learned a lesson with Pandaren, and at this point, don't want to repeat it by essentially having the same race on both factions. I often see very little recognition to the fact that Blizzard makes mistakes, especially on the topic of Pandaren being a precedent for "blurring the faction wall". I agree, it blurs the damn wall and they shouldn't have done it. They obviously feel strongly about this, or at least Ion does, to the point where they don't want to repeat it. And not only would they repeat it if they made High Elves playable now, they'd surely upset no small portion of the Horde by doing it some ten years later.

I'm resolute in not wanting the Alliance to have a blue-eyed Blood Elf. But, I must concede, Blizzard owes you something. Whether it's a mere truthful explanation that addresses your concerns point by point, a roadmap for the future of the High Elves, or a playable race that fulfills the lore niche that can please the most radical player from either faction. I'll no longer attempt to demoralize anyone that's respectfully campaigning for a version of this race that will leave both sides happy.

Thanks for talking and explaining.

[Darththeo]

I'm asking you, not anybody else. And those who provide what they think is evidence has to be certain it will stand up to scrutiny. So far, nothing has. Yesterday someone linked an image purporting to 'prove' that Nightborne and Night Elves are identical. That was evidence I rapidly dismantled and proved meaningless.

You and I must have very different definitions of "dismantled" because you have yet to dismantle any argument. You have merely dismissed them, and I, unlike you, don't like repeating myself, so again, I gesture to this very topic again. Go back and honestly read, because you haven't. Go back and look at all the facts, not just those that support your stance. Go back and actually put forth an argument and not just troll.

The Alliance High Elves are a nearly dead race incapable of sustaining a major presence in the game on the level of any of the other playable races. I can cite multiple sources supporting this fact, including two interviews conducted in the past year that said it flat out. For Alliance High Elves to be a viable race of any sort, a retcon would be needed to ensure that they had that presence similar to the other races within the Alliance and Horde.

You state it is factually false, but factually here seems to be just an adjective to give your opinion unjustified weight.

If Blood Elves are high elves and if Blood elves can return to the Alliance, all it takes it Blood Elves to retake the name High Elves ... what I was saying factually false to was the statement "requires a retcon" it doesn't.

You still believe in the High Elves of Stormwind? The mythical population of High Elves that live in Stormwind? The only source for that was the RPG and that was ruled non canon. The extremely few High Elves who wander the streets now are usually paired with Void Elves. They certainly weren't there before the Void Elves arrived.

In fact, given that you are proposing 'all the groups of the High Elves get together' I can safely say I fully understand the topic. The problem is you refuse to face the fact you were repeatedly told, they are almost all dead. There are no 'groups' of High Elves to get together, there is really just a few High Elf Mages in Dalaran and the Hunters of the Silver Covenant and a few in that hut in the hinterlands. That's it. The retcon is inventing these other groups you've mentioned to bolster the Alliance High Elves decimated population.

You listed 3 groups. You admit Blood Elves are High Elves ... that's 4 if we choose to list all Blood Elves as one group. Seriously, you think you dismantled all the arguments?

This topic didn't demand arguments. This topic was for people to put forward fan fiction. A drawing of an Elf with different hairstyles is not an argument. An argument is something which would prove that High Elves are a distinct group worthy of being a playable race in the game. Everything put forward so far could be managed by a Blood Elf on a bad hair day.

There are still arguments in the topic. This was to talk about how it could be possible, and it is possible. You decided to come in and tell them that they are wrong and why what they want is a bad thing. If you honestly can't see why I choose to argue against you while still being not Pro-Helf, that's really quite sad.

Objectivity relies on the facts as they are, not as you wish them to be. Everything I use as evidence is sourced, from in game, from an interview, from something official.

All you've done is say I'm wrong and offered nothing in support of that beyond your opinion. And no, once again, the fan fiction making up this thread's 'proposals' doesn't count.

No, I am point to the facts they used that you dismissed. I am pointing to the arguments that you "dismantled." You have merely come in her to tell them they are wrong for wanting something and their reasons aren't "factual" and that is so false it isn't funny. You don't understand objectivity because you haven't been objective in this debate. Again, you have stated you will not change ... you then backpedal on that.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Y'know what I find interesting about this is that the file names for the greetings and such are specifically listed as "High Elf" but they're just the Night Elf stuff aren't they? Don't know why they couldn't label it "Night Elf" then, as the combat stuff they have labeled as "Blood Elf".

Unless I guess the actual NightElfStandardNPCx is really specific things to Night Elves?

Anyways, just a weird thing I noticed

I think it's labeled as HE because hile it is just NE voices, it is a set edited to leave out any references to elune and dranassian sayings, so my guess is that NPC's cycle through a voice set every time you click them, they aren't assigned specific voicelines, hence the reason their voice files -which are just NE- are given a ne name, so they can be a set and cycle through it.

Also, it does seem that new SCHE NPC's are getting Brightspur lines, like the helf on Auric's angels. I don't know if are other male HE somewhere, but I'm curious to kno what voice set they are using.

[RangerDaz]

We been knew

Minimal cosmetic changes + an unique idle pose= Nightborne, that's just what they are, and that is okay for almost everyone. But if we apply the same logic for playable High Elves? Utterly unfathomable, how dare you.

??

And lol, yet another High Elf NPC, looking the helfiest possible with that unused Sunwell cloth recolor.

http://bfa.wowhead.com/npc=143380/yvera-dawnwing

She's on Stormgarde, as the portal trainer next to the portal to Boralus.

Like Blizz can't help themselves from just adding more High Elves.

It is sad, but true.
I never really understand the hate for Alliance High Elves.

Hopefully one day Blizz will give them... after BfA, i believe.

[DeicideUH]

On the note of Void Elves being comprised of only Blood Elves, is that something we that can be supported by a statement or a source? I was under the impression some High Elves had also taken up the flag of the Void.

So far, confirmed by lore facts, only blood elves became void elves.

We see a few high (and blood) elves studying the void in Telogrus later, but there's not a single bit of lore that says that new actual void elves are being created. We don't know if the transformation process can be replicated. And, given how the Void is portrayed as a curse in the Windrunner comic, I doubt the void elves would be willing to curse more people into it.

Now, nothing prevents Blizzard from later introducing some sort of ritual for transforming willing subjects, and more elves being added to the ren'dorei. But, so far, it hasn't happened.

[FlubberPuddy]

So far, confirmed by lore facts, only blood elves became void elves.

We see a few high (and blood) elves studying the void in Telogrus later, but there's not a single bit of lore that says that new actual void elves are being created. We don't know if the transformation process can be replicated. And, given how the Void is portrayed as a curse in the Windrunner comic, I doubt the void elves would be willing to curse more people into it.

Now, nothing prevents Blizzard from later introducing some sort of ritual for transforming willing subjects, and more elves being added to the ren'dorei. But, so far, it hasn't happened.

Thanks for replying!

@Enkrypt this ^ is the answer. I've just been pretty fatigued by our long posts and this conversation on the whole so took a break

Indeed it is Blizzard that gets the final say on what's added into the game, doesn't matter what their reasons are or any community person, member, or group says. Ultimately we will see if anything or nothing happens to the High Elves at all in the future.

I'm resolute in not wanting the Alliance to have a blue-eyed Blood Elf. But, I must concede, Blizzard owes you something. Whether it's a mere truthful explanation that addresses your concerns point by point, a roadmap for the future of the High Elves, or a playable race that fulfills the lore niche that can please the most radical player from either faction. I'll no longer attempt to demoralize anyone that's respectfully campaigning for a version of this race that will leave both sides happy.

Thanks for talking and explaining.

Honestly, even if none of what you suggested does come to pass, I'm very glad we could have this discourse in the manner we did. A much better tone of posts, thank you as well.