1. #6441
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    This is my last word on the debate over whether what a community manager said is equivalent to what the game director says because we aren't going to agree on it and frankly I think it's rank desperation on your part. That's all I am ever going to think of it. That's all the vast majority of people are going to think of it too because most people are going to accept that a PR guy isn't equivalent to the team leader and no matter how much you try and caveat your theory to the contrary, that is exactly what it rests on. That we should treat similar phrases from two people in wildly different positions similarly.
    Again, you're the only one trying to make total equivalence out of this. All I'm saying is that both are much more likely than not to be beholden to the same rules when dealing with the public when the subject of the matter are projects being worked on. When they say something about the game to the public, both have the same weight, unless they directly contradict each other. At that point, usually the person with the higher rank "wins".

    Void Elves and Blood Elves have completely different themes. If you really agreed that the faction wall was broken by Void Elves, you'd be happy with Void Elves and wouldn't be asking for Blood Elf clones.
    ... Void elves are "blood elf clones". Only with a blue tint. They have the same culture, the same language, the same body type... the only difference is that they like to cosplay as Widowmaker.

    Similarly, Night Elves and Nightborne have completely different themes. A Nightborne is not a Night Elf, even though they used to be. And a Void Elf is not a High Elf, even though they used to be.
    Nightborne also have a completely different culture from Night Elves. Their shared history splintered off ten thousand years ago. They're almost like vrykul and humans.

    And Blood Elves ARE High Elves, that the High Elf on offer to EVERYONE isn't in the silver covenant is irrelevant.
    Actually, it's very relevant when you consider that the Silver Covenant faction is purely-Alliance.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2018-06-08 at 02:15 PM.
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  2. #6442
    Brewmaster elbleuet's Avatar
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    A new high elf questgiver has just been added in Stromgarde.

    Blizzard I love you, but you're so cruel with your high elf fans.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  3. #6443
    It's fascinating that this thread is still going on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    Spite, certain people are so obsessed with their factions nowadays that whenever the opposing faction asks for something, they choose to be dicks instead of being rational.
    "Let's be quiet about High Elves fans being so obsessed with their faction that they can't play High Elves already there in the Horde even though they have been available for them for 12 years. Also, being so entitled one demands the opposite faction's race on their own faction, due to the aforementioned totally-not-obsession-related inability to play said opposite faction, is completely rational and such level of entitlement is not dickish in the slightest because High Elves."


    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    Also the faction wall supposedly being destroyed, even though night elves were given to the horde.
    Nightborne aren't Night Elves. They diverged from them earlier than the High Elves. If Nightborne are Night Elves then High Elves are also Night Elves and as such the Alliance already has them by the virtue of having Night Elves.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2018-06-08 at 01:21 PM.
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    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  4. #6444
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    It's fascinating that this thread is still going on.




    "Let's be quiet about High Elves fans being so obsessed with their faction that they can't play High Elves already there in the Horde even though they have been available for them for 12 years. Also, being so entitled one demands the opposite faction's race on their own faction, due to the aforementioned totally-not-obsession-related inability to play said opposite faction, is completely rational and such level of entitlement is not dickish in the slightest because High Elves."




    Nightborne aren't Night Elves. They diverged from them earlier than the High Elves. If Nightborne are Night Elves then High Elves are also Night Elves and as such the Alliance already has them by the virtue of having Night Elves.
    Nightborne are night elves. Same silhouette, same skin color etc. Culturally they're different, but they look exactly the same, hence why the whole bitterness towards alliance having high elves is so silly.

    Also people want high elves, the ones that are already part of the alliance similarly to DI dwarves being part of the alliance, not horde blood elves.

  5. #6445
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaira View Post
    Nightbourne are Night Elves and Void Elves are Blood Elves same animations same looks different factions thats all I'm going to say, It's ok to destroy the Alliance faction wall but not the Hordes also might I mention Pandaren you may think they are irrelevant but they are totally not they are completely relevant your illusion of a faction wall doesn't really exist while these races are available.
    Nightborne are not Night Elves. They used to be Night Elves but were transformed by the radiance of the Nightwell after thousands of years of exposure. We can see this in the different skin tones the Nightborne have, their thinner and less muscled bodies and their upswept rather than backswept ears.

    Nightborne also preserved the ancient culture of the Highborne, which the Night Elves eradicated in the wake of the First invasion, ensuring that the Nightborne have a completely different theme to the Night Elves.

    Similarly, Void Elves are not Blood/High Elves. They used to be Blood/High Elves, but they were transformed by their exposure to the powers of the void which is manifested in unique skin tones and the presence of tentacles. They are also thematically different from Blood/High Elves, having lost the majesty of their former lives and being cut off from the holy light which, as golden eyes for normal thalassian elves shows, is an increasingly important aspect for the Blood/High Elves.

    To say Nightborne are Night Elves, and thus broke the faction wall, is a deliberately obtuse statement designed to to suggest that the faction wall was broken to give the Horde Night Elves whereas Void Elves, because they aren't the Blood Elf clone you have asked for, do not break the faction wall. As I have demonstrated that Nightborne and Void Elves are in fact fairly equivalent in terms of the changes they received to justify their presence on the factions opposite their parent races, I can safely say you are wrong. And you are wrong because you are motivated in your biases.

    As for Pandaren, continually using them as an example when that example has been refuted time and time and time again does you no favours. It merely prompts another weary recitation of the standard response, that Pandaren were conceived of and implemented as a neutral race, that the entire plot of the Pandaren revolved around their neutrality and that Blizzard clearly regrets adding a neutral race to the game, even the one they designed specifically to be neutral. Blood Elves, who are High Elves, were introduced on the Horde faction and making them neutral would be a far bigger step than Blizzard is willing to do. As they have said. The addition of a Void Elf variant as a clear compromise, with it's own theme and storyline that does not encroach on the identity of a core Horde race or the integrity of the Horde faction, makes the potential addition of High Elves very hard to see coming to pass prior to the game ending, as it one day will.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Calling subjectivity objectivity is like calling a horse an automobile ... it doesn't make you right. Also, no, do you even deal with Star Wars fans like at all?
    And your evidence? When I say I have an objective opinion I provide an in game fact or a word of god statement to back it up. That's exactly what an objective argument is. Every single time we have debated in the past week I have pointed out that you haven't a shred of evidence to back up anything you have said, that you rely entirely on a subjective point of view. Which turned out to be incorrect, as when asked to provide your own subjective criteria for a core faction race you point blank refused and reverted to attacking mine. Even when I asked you to provide a subjective comment, you couldn't do it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Factually false. Unlike you, I don't like repeating myself ... please go back and read the entire topic, there evidence is there ... you merely dismiss it without objective reason. You aren't objective, this debate has never been and can never be objective. It is by definition impossible with all the given facts.
    I 'repeat' myself because the facts in this matter remain consistent, beyond our ability to alter. The facts are in game lore. The facts are word of god statements. The facts all OBJECTIVELY point to the same conclusion, no matter how you spin it. That Blood Elves ARE High Elves. That High Elves ARE playable. That Void Elves ARE a High Elf variant given to the Alliance as a compromise. On the pro High Elf side I have not seen a single piece of evidence refuting any of that and the reason is, you can't. All three of my substantive points are backed up by literally everything in game and out.



    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I am not the one who stated that there is no argument that will sway me ... that was you.
    And I illustrated the reasons why. The pro High Elf side has no arguments supporting their position, merely a wish they repeat continually in the hope Blizzard obliges them and retcons the game. Maybe they will one day. But at the moment there is nothing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Do me a favor, and stop repeating yourself in the same post ... I get tired of reading the same crap arguments from you as it is. You are aware you are closer to a flat earther than the Pro-helfers right? Most pro-helfer have acknowledge the statement made by the creators and disagree with them for lore reasons ... you reject all evidence against your belief and assert you are right without evidence.
    If you think most pro High Elfers acknowledge what the developer's said then you really aren't paying attention. They'ed typed out more interpretations of Ion's empty platitude about it being 'sometime in the future' than actually contending with the fact he listed the reasons why they aren't happening.

    The vast majority of the remaining pro high elf community is in denial over this.

    As for your own repetition that I have no evidence, that is quite frankly a lie on your part. I provide ample evidence coming from multiple sources to back up what I say. You seemingly define evidence as the pro High Elf communities tendency to type out wholly subjective opinion pieces which are applauded by the faithful and rapidly torn to shreds by anyone else. Isn't it funny that after all our back and forth over 'evidence' these past few days where one of my recurring themes is the lack of evidence on the pro High Elf side you've failed to produce a single piece to back up your opinion? Merely insisting that it's there if I look for it. I've looked. I don't see it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Because not every one has a side in the debate ... I just don't like your argument style so I argue against you to show you that you are no better than the Helfers.
    People who don't take a side in a debate usually don't participate. And you are spectacular failing at your stated goals, as your own evidence free commentary simply reaffirms that a sourced approach to debate is the best way to go. My arguments are objectively superior to the pro High Elf communities because I can back up almost everything I say.

    On the subjective matter of 'if they whine long enough and loudly enough that Blizzard will retcon their game to give them what they want' that will be for the future.

    As for you you are welcome to continue debating me...I'd prefer if you offered actual facts or even better opinions of your own rather than continually failing to undermine mine but do what you must.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    And that definition is redundant because we have the terms: Playable and Horde-Only ... so core is just a word game and means nothing.
    Thanks for proving my point ... thus the term core is useless because of redundancy.
    The term is used to contrast with non playable members of the Horde and involves player perception, a playable race unique to the Horde is a core Horde race. As you have not offered any alternative opinion on what constitutes a core race there is nothing much to discuss here.




    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    A person who claims they will not be swayed is anything but reasonable.
    I will be swayed by evidence. The pro High Elf community has no evidence and can only achieve their goal through a very public retcon. Hence I cannot be swayed.



    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Despite lore characters like Sylvanas and Lor'themar basically saying things that support me? Lor'themar stance is he'll do whatever it takes for the Blood Elves to survive ... even if that means leaving the Horde and going back to the Alliance. It is at this time, Lor'themar hands are tied by current Alliance ideals ... but Lor'themar has been clear, he'll only stand with the Horde so long as it is the best course for the Blood Elves.
    Which was from Mists of Pandaria prior to the purge. Since that point we have seen Lor'themar being vocally pro Horde on the isle of Thunder, siding with the darkspear rebellion and instituting a new Warchief, and eagerly extolling the virtues of the Horde to a prospective member state whilst at the same time publicly denigrating the Alliance. Has Lor'themar given any indication, even a hint, of thinking about the Alliance offer since the purge? No, he has not. The events that occurred in Mists of Pandaria were unique as the entire Horde was falling apart due to Garrosh. In the end, it came back together. All the core races of the Horde came back together.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Sylvanas states that the "Core horde" races have always viewed the additional races as secondary. The lore is there ... don't get on my case because you don't like facts. I look at all facts, you look at facts that support solely your position ... you are a flat earther and don't know it.
    I have never denied that there are tensions within the Horde. The tensions are part of what makes the Horde the Horde, a coalition of sovereign states and profoundly different cultures united by a desire to survive in a world that hates all of them. Yet those tensions don't mean that first three races in the Horde are more core than all the races that joined after. It just means there are internal tensions. As I said, core race means a playable race unique to the Horde representing a sizable chunk of the overall race's population.

    Besides, a Horde with such tensions is infinitely preferably to the narrative desert of the Alliance and it's monolithic Humano-centric story.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Again, you're the only one trying to make total equivalence out of this. All I'm saying is that both are much more likely than not to be beholden to the same rules when dealing with the public when the subject of the matter are projects being worked on. When they say something about the game to the public, both have the same weight, unless they directly contradict each other. At that point, usually the person with the higher rank "wins".
    Then when the Game Director says there are no plans for High Elves, there are really no plans because there is nobody higher in the development team to contradict him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    ... Void elves are "blood elf clones". Only with a blue tint. They have the same culture, the same language, the same body type... the only difference is that they like to cosplay as Widowmaker.
    Void Elves are physically different from Blood/High Elves due to a change in skin tones and the addition of tentacles. They are thematically different in that they are void corrupted mutated cut off from the sunwell and the holy light. Given that the Blood/High Elves are increasingly light aligned it is difficult to achieve more thematic distance than that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Nightborne also have a completely different culture from Night Elves. Their shared history splintered off ten thousand years ago. They're almost like vrykul and humans.
    No, they are not. Thalyssra's flashback when you first met demonstrated that she was a Night Elf in Suramar during the first invasion. She was transformed, as all the Night Elves in Suramar were, into Nightborne due to the influence of the Nightwell. The culture of the Nightborne is the one the Night Elves had prior to abandoning their old way of life and embracing Druidism. The closest analogue to the Nightborne in fact are the Void Elves, a group of Elves transformed by an external power source, albeit over a much longer time scale. Fitting, as the Nightborne and the modified Night Elf model are the quid pro quo for the Void Elves and the modified Blood/High Elf model.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Actually, it's very relevant when you consider that the Silver Covenant faction is purely-Alliance.
    And the Farstriders are purely Horde. Should we have a Farstriders allied race now? Is every minor faction going to get their turn?
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2018-06-08 at 06:23 PM.

  6. #6446
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Then when the Game Director says there are no plans for High Elves, there are really no plans because there is nobody higher in the development team to contradict him.
    And the last time they said "no plans", we got what was being asked for a few years later. Moral of the story? "No plans" is not a definitive answer that will last forever.

    Void Elves are physically different from Blood/High Elves due to a change in skin tones and the addition of tentacles. They are thematically different in that they are void corrupted mutated cut off from the sunwell and the holy light.
    Skin tone and hair style is often negated by armor. On top of that, blood elf death knights have dark bluish skin tones that would make differentiation between them harder. And they still share the exact same model, silhouette and animations. As for thematically different? Well, so are high elves. Not to the extent of the void elves, currently, but they could be further expanded, like for example further embracing the light to stay away from fel. High elves are also less inclined to take risky moves like the blood elves.

    No, they are not. Thalyssra's flashback when you first met demonstrated that she was a Night Elf in Suramar during the first invasion. She was transformed, as all the Night Elves in Suramar were, into Nightborne due to the influence of the Sunwell.
    And when was that again? Right. Ten thousand years ago.

    The culture of the Nightborne is the one the Night Elves had prior to abandoning their old way of life and embracing Druidism.
    Yes. Had is the keyword here. Had. No longer the night elves have that culture.

    The closest analogue to the Nightborne in fact are the Void Elves, a group of Elves transformed by an external power source, albeit over a much longer time scale. Fitting, as the Nightborne and the modified Night Elf model are the quid pro quo for the Void Elves and the modified Blood/High Elf model.
    Actually, the closest analog would be the blood elves. Which is why they bonded so closely, mind you.

    And the Farstriders are purely Horde. Should we have a Farstriders allied race now? Is every minor faction going to get their turn?
    ... And there you go, missing the point again. You can be a Farstrider elf. But you can't be a Silver Covenant elf.
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  7. #6447
    Deleted
    Psst. Nightborn are night elves and void elves are blood elves.

    Yet, releasing Void Elves is disrespectful for their poor quality in terms of customizations. Thats why people are asking for High Elves. Rangers and warrior with another idle stance, a way more wild, and some celtics themed details. Just like Alleria.

    But w/e =)

  8. #6448
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    DISCLAIMER: This post is meant merely to inform those that come into the thread as Obelisk likes to speak as if everything he says is factual and 100% objectively correct. So this post is meant to inform those to basically see the "other side" of the conversation being had here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Most of the concepts provided were just Blood Elves with different hair cuts or tattoos.

    One concept that was heavily pushed was High Elves becoming more like Wood Elves, ignoring the fact that Night Elves are the Wood Elves of Warcraft and they have that theme covered.

    Here's a rule of thumb. If you suggest a concept for Alliance High Elves, and a Blood Elf can do it with some makeup or new clothes or a new hairstyle, it's not good enough.

    Void Elves are exactly what so many High Elves fans purpoted to want, a High Elf that didn't look like a Blood Elf. Forgive me for having little sympathy when the reaction to them has been 'not that different!'.
    Hoooo boi, never met someone so full of themselves, this is like Blood Elf identify manifested into real life. Responding to Bold portions.

    1) Void Elves are literally purple/blue colored Blood Elves with different haircuts.

    2) Nightborne are also a group of mana-addicted, pragmatic Elves, a niche that was formerly the sole thematics for Blood Elves. This proves by definition of existing that just because one race has a niche, doesn't mean that niche can't be shared by other races. Another example being Mag'har Orcs, who share the same cultural niches as Green Orcs, only one is uncorrupted and the other is fel-corrupted.

    Heck even Void Elves share the same culture, language, and body type (as @Ielenia pointed out) as Blood Elves. Therefore we can clearly see supported by in-game evidence that a niche existing for an already playable race doesn't exclude Allied Races from sharing that niche outright, or similar ones.

    3) The existence of Lightforged Draenei and Highmountain Tauren render this bold moot. Every Draenei can become Lightforged by undergoing a trial. Every Highmountain Tauren, though being blessed by Cenarius, have no added insight/strengths into Druidism or anything else than Mulgore Taurens. Both Taurens are of equal staying power.

    And saying a Blood Elf would put twigs and leaves in their hair and muddy themselves up with the Wilds is an abject refusal to acknowledge what Ion said about Blood Elves being the "majestic Elves" that they are. Everything in-game also supports that they consider what the other Horde races (Orcs, Trolls, Tauren) do are barbaric -- they wouldn't suddenly change their entire culture to fit that aesthetic.

    We see this through Void Elves, who are the extension of former Blood Elf society, still caring about their looks through chatter and their Heritage armor still being fanciful.

    4) Sorry but no one profusely argued for High Elves to look different from Blood Elves before Void Elves were released. It was clear as day that everyone wanted High Elves from those groups such as the Silver Covenant, etc. Players only took to making them look different in the first place was due to lots of anti-HE peeps coming in and saying "you're just wanting Blood Elves!" (which hello, is actually literally what Void Elves are) and so set out like Traycor and others elsewhere to see how can they integrate Alliance High Elves and not step on Blood Elves' toes?

    Oh by taking a concept Blood Elves no longer profusely use in their society and blowing it up for the Alliance High Elves. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Because that's exactly what they did with the Nightborne.

    Nightborne are the Night Elf Highborne concept (the Highborne which joined the Night Elves in Cata) which was barely used in Night Elf society, blown up and made its own thing for the entire existence of the Nightborne.

    Void Elves offer nothing about what an Alliance High Elf is, and neither do the Blood Elves - who btw, don't even refer to themselves as High Elves anymore and would hate to be called that themselves. The whole "Blood Elves are High Elves" thing is just made to downplay the requests for wanting High Elves in the first place since Void Elves just released.

    Even all new lore coming out that relates to Blood Elves shows how passionate they are about being BLOOD Elves and not High Elves. Of course, just like the reality of the Horde player population, the Blood Elf players don't care for all that bullshit and just want to play pretty looking flesh-tone elves and want that kept unique to their faction. But yeah they're also totally okay with getting Purple Elves which used to be unique to the Alliance, no REEEing there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Nightborne are not Night Elves. They used to be Night Elves but were transformed by the radiance of the Nightwell after thousands of years of exposure. We can see this in the different skin tones the Nightborne have, their thinner and less muscled bodies and their upswept rather than backswept ears.

    Similarly, Void Elves are not Blood/High Elves. They used to be Blood/High Elves, but they were transformed by their exposure to the powers of the void which is manifested in unique skin tones and the presence of tentacles. They are also thematically different from Blood/High Elves, having lost the majesty of their former lives and being cut off from the holy light which, as golden eyes for normal thalassian elves shows, is an increasingly important aspect for the Blood/High Elves.

    To say Nightborne are Night Elves, and thus broke the faction wall, is a deliberately obtuse statement designed to to suggest that the faction wall was broken to give the Horde Night Elves whereas Void Elves, because they aren't the Blood Elf clone you have asked for, do not break the faction wall. As I have demonstrated that Nightborne and Void Elves are in fact fairly equivalent in terms of the changes they received to justify their presence on the factions opposite their parent races, I can safely say you are wrong. And you are wrong because you are motivated in your biases.

    If you think most pro High Elfers acknowledge what the developer's said then you really aren't paying attention. They'ed typed out more interpretations of Ion's empty platitude about it being 'sometime in the future' than actually contending with the fact he listed the reasons why they aren't happening.

    The vast majority of the remaining pro high elf community is in denial over this.

    As for your own repetition that I have no evidence, that is quite frankly a lie on your part. I provide ample evidence coming from multiple sources to back up what I say. You seemingly define evidence as the pro High Elf communities tendency to type out wholly subjective opinion pieces which are applauded by the faithful and rapidly torn to shreds by anyone else. Isn't it funny that after all our back and forth over 'evidence' these past few days where one of my recurring themes is the lack of evidence on the pro High Elf side you've failed to produce a single piece to back up your opinion? Merely insisting that it's there if I look for it. I've looked. I don't see it.

    Void Elves are physically different from Blood/High Elves due to a change in skin tones and the addition of tentacles. They are thematically different in that they are void corrupted mutated cut off from the sunwell and the holy light.

    No, they are not. Thalyssra's flashback when you first met demonstrated that she was a Night Elf in Suramar during the first invasion. She was transformed, as all the Night Elves in Suramar were, into Nightborne due to the influence of the Sunwell. The culture of the Nightborne is the one the Night Elves had prior to abandoning their old way of life and embracing Druidism. The closest analogue to the Nightborne in fact are the Void Elves, a group of Elves transformed by an external power source, albeit over a much longer time scale. Fitting, as the Nightborne and the modified Night Elf model are the quid pro quo for the Void Elves and the modified Blood/High Elf model.

    And the Farstriders are purely Horde. Should we have a Farstriders allied race now? Is every minor faction going to get their turn?
    1) Different skin tones, muscle tones, stances? Oh wow, sounds very similar to what the pro-High Elf peeps have been requesting all along.

    2) Void Elves ARE Former Blood Elves. To deny this is to deny "Word of God" as Ion himself has stated as well that Void Elves were made to give "something like a Blood Elf to the Alliance" and all new lore since their creation supports the fact that these are former Blood Elves who got cast out from Silvermoon, hence being exiled Blood Elves. To keep denying this is certainly being purposefully obtuse.

    Void Elves don't even have their own "culture" as they are so recently separated from the Blood Elves. They've just been doused in Void. It hasn't taken away their narcissistic love for themselves or any finer design wear/clothing. They're literally just cast out, "hobo" Blood Elves doused by Void.

    3) Nightborne broke the faction wall by giving a purple elf variant to Horde. It's as simple as Ion saying, "if you want to play a fair-skinned..elf" yada yada "go play Horde." Then the same line of logic (by "Word of God" btw) should apply for Alliance: "If you want to play a purple-skinned..elf" "go play Alli-" oh wait NO YOU CAN PLAY PURPLE ELVES ON HORDE TOO!

    4) Ion listed reasons that in no way clashed with any of the theorycrafting that's been happening with High Elves. Even Taliesin, who basically formulated all the pro-HE arguments into one video, made a response video stating that Ion's response didn't change since Blizzcon and thus nothing that was said was any new information that clashes with the post Blizzcon theorycrafting.

    Besides, you don't need to look far to know that most of what Ion said is easily refuted by the fact that Red Shirt Guy (who is a stickler for lore reasons to game additions) and even Wowhead themselves (both also groups that have more authority in the wow community than random MMO-C posters) both showed how refutable Ion's response was. Not to mention that other players who aren't as invested in the topic can also see how contradictory Ion's aka "Word of God's" statements were.

    5) Maybe Obelisk isn't finding it because he puts people like me who provide the info on ignore (or chooses to ignore me without being on ignore, I still have no idea ) so he can't find it?

    6) High Elves also contain skin colors that Blood Elves, to this day, do not have access to. And hairstyle change is a non-argument. Conversely, the Void is not required for Blood Elves to grow better facial hair yet they have it anyway so the same customization that can easily be differentiated are the ones that Obelisk is making the biggest deal about.

    Also ignoring that Void Elves thematically are what Blood Elves used to be before TBC ended: Pragmatic elves that were dealing with a chaotic magic form they couldn't handle.

    7) The closest analogue to the Nightborne are the Night Elf Highborne Mages that have been playable since Cataclysm. Who carry on the traditional Highborne themes until they were taken from the Alliance Night Elf Highborne and blown up and made their own thing "For the Horde"

    8) This is extremely petty to say and even incorrect at that, every Blood Elf Hunter is made a member of the Farstrider organization just as every Human and Dwarf Paladin is a member of the Silver Hand upon creation. So yeah you in fact can play as a Farstrider. This has nothing to do with making Alliance High Elves (an UNplayable Race) on Alliance actually playable.
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2018-06-08 at 04:43 PM.

  9. #6449
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    DISCLAIMER: This post is meant merely to inform those that come into the thread as Obelisk likes to speak as if everything he says is factual and 100% objectively correct. So this post is meant to inform those to basically see the "other side" of the conversation being had here.

    (...)
    Nice wall of text. Signing for support!
    Whatever...

  10. #6450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaira View Post
    *Sigh* you realise you are wrong.



    Edit: Muh immersion / faction identity is all BS.
    I mean, by that logic I guess you can agree with this a lot easier than everyone else that are Pro High-Elf:



    (Hint: They are the exact same aside from eye-colour and Blizzard said they are the same race.)

    But even so, Nightborne STILL got unique animations specific to them. High Elves? Nnnope.
    Last edited by Sigxy; 2018-06-08 at 06:04 PM.

  11. #6451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaira View Post
    *Sigh* you realise you are wrong.



    Edit: Muh immersion / faction identity is all BS.


    Nightborne used to be Night Elves. They are based on the same model and use a lot of the same assets, but this image twists the case.

    Firstly, the person who created this has used the female model. The female Nightborne model's musculature has not been altered. The male Nightborne has been altered and has noticeably thinner arms and legs.

    Secondly, the Nighborne skin tones are substantially different from Night Elves. Night Elven skin colours range from pink, to purple, to a dry blue to a light gray. Nightborne have three skin tones, two very vivid blues and the gray. The person who made this image chose the lightest skin tone, the gray, to find a better match with the Night Elves.

    Finally, and most damning, the models are oriented to obscure the other ear. Nightborne ears are upswept, whereas Night Elf ears are backswept. The intent behind such a positioning is obvious, as the image is designed to mislead seeing the most prominent difference in the ear shape would spoil the symmetry.

    Overall i stand by my assertion that Nightborne are not Night Elves. They used to be Night Elves, in the same way that Void Elves used to be Blood/High Elves, but both were transformed due to exposure to outside energies. As both are derived from their parent races, they share a great deal with them in terms of basic looks...but that's the point of the Allied race system.

    Regardless, there is no way anyone could say that a Nightborne is a copy of a Night Elf that breaches the faction. The only reason you are doing so is that you are trying to prove the faction wall has been breached, doesn't matter and can you have your Blood Elf clone please. To reach such a conclusion, you have to ignore the very obvious efforts Blizzard went to differentiate Night Elves and Nightborne. And to differentiate Void Elves from Blood/High Elves at that.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2018-06-08 at 06:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaira View Post
    But still, Why is it fine to break the faction identity of the Alliance but not the Horde? Favouritism?! Because that's exactly what its being seen as from a lot of Alliance players points of view, They got pretty much an exact copy of one of our side most played races while we get a butchered version of theirs.
    They did not break the faction identity of the Alliance any more than they did the Horde. Nightborne are changed from Night Elves the same way Void Elves were changed from Blood/High Elves.

    To say they broke one but not the other, which is in itself incorrect as they went to a huge effort to ensure the Nightborne and Void Elves were considerably differentiated from their parent races and far more than any other Allied race, is a falsehood you are spreading in an attempt to argue that if the faction wall was breached to give Night Elves to the Horde, they should give Alliance High Elves to the Alliance.

    They did not give Night Elves to the Horde any more than they gave Blood Elves to the Alliance with the Nightborne and Void Elves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Firstly, the person who created this has used the female model. The female Nightborne model's musculature has not been altered. The male Nightborne has been altered and has noticeably thinner arms and legs.
    I think it's also worth mentioning that people who complain that Nightborne is a copy-paste of the Night elf race NEVER played one, simply because... Blizzard is kinda stupid and haven't finished the model for character creation. Because when it's in-game, they actually stand differently.

    Compare above image with:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And the last time they said "no plans", we got what was being asked for a few years later. Moral of the story? "No plans" is not a definitive answer that will last forever.
    The last time they said no plans it was a guy who is outside the development team. This time it was the very head. If you wish to insist upon an equivalence and not recognise the obvious difference that is your choice, but do not expect such a desperate assertion to pass without someone pointing out the obvious.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Skin tone and hair style is often negated by armor.
    If that is the case, role a Void Elf and pretend you have a High Elf beneath all that plate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    On top of that, blood elf death knights have dark bluish skin tones that would make differentiation between them harder.
    Blood Elf Death Knights have three unique non skins as well as access to all normal Blood Elf skins. One has a vaguely green pallor (skin 11), one is a very dark gray...almost bordering on a sort of sun bleached brown (skin 12) and the final one is the pale gray/white skin tone (Skin 13). Skin 13 is the only one that seems vaguely similar to some Void Elf.

    Also void elves have tentacles and a considerably different selection of hair colours to a Blood Elf death knight. Under some circumstances you can create a Void Elf and a Blood Elf Death Knight that look similar to each other, but not exactly and not completely.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And they still share the exact same model, silhouette and animations. As for thematically different? Well, so are high elves. Not to the extent of the void elves, currently, but they could be further expanded, like for example further embracing the light to stay away from fel. High elves are also less inclined to take risky moves like the blood elves.
    High Elves are thematically identical to Blood Elves. They cannot be differentiated without ceasing to be High Elves. Void Elves were thematically differentiated and, even with the identical model as you put it, the pro High Elf hardcore have not accepted it. What pro High Elfers want IS a High Elf, which is already a playable option on the Horde.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And when was that again? Right. Ten thousand years ago.
    Which does not change the point. Both Nightborne and Void Elves were changed by exposure to magic into something other than what they were. That for the Nightborne it took millenia is immaterial to the truth that both ended up transformed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yes. Had is the keyword here. Had. No longer the night elves have that culture.
    Which is the point. The Nightborne maintained the old culture, the Night Elves forged a new one that saw them become Warcraft's wood elves and carve out their own theme. This is why Nightborne and Night Elves do not break the integrity of the Alliance, as Nightborne are as far from Night Elves as it is possible to get.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    YActually, the closest analog would be the blood elves. Which is why they bonded so closely, mind you.
    What I meant by closest analogue was in terms of narrative, a race transformed by external magic. They are not like Vrykul, who gave birth to a brand new race.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    ... And there you go, missing the point again. You can be a Farstrider elf. But you can't be a Silver Covenant elf.
    You can't be a farstrider elf because the farstriders are all Blood Elves, who are acknowledged to be High Elves, and to provide them with a separate Allied race option when you can be a Blood Elf is, of course, ridiculous. The same logic applies to the silver covenant, who are no different physically or thematically from a Blood Elf other than their political affiliation. The difference in political affiliation is not and never will be enough grounds for a High Elf allied race in the Alliance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Nightborne used to be Night Elves. They are based on the same model and use a lot of the same assets, but this image twists the case.

    Firstly, the person who created this has used the female model. The female Nightborne model's musculature has not been altered. The male Nightborne has been altered and has noticeably thinner arms and legs.

    Secondly, the Nighborne skin tones are substantially different from Night Elves. Night Elven skin colours range from pink, to purple, to a dry blue to a light gray. Nightborne have three skin tones, two very vivid blues and the gray. The person who made this image chose the lightest skin tone, the gray, to find a better match with the Night Elves.

    Finally, and most damning, the models are oriented to obscure the other ear. Nightborne ears are upswept, whereas Night Elf ears are backswept. The intent behind such a positioning is obvious, as the image is designed to mislead seeing the most prominent difference in the ear shape would spoil the symmetry.

    Overall i stand by my assertion that Nightborne are not Night Elves. They used to be Night Elves, in the same way that Void Elves used to be Blood/High Elves, but both were transformed due to exposure to outside energies. As both are derived from their parent races, they share a great deal with them in terms of basic looks...but that's the point of the Allied race system.

    Regardless, there is no way anyone could say that a Nightborne is a copy of a Night Elf that breaches the faction. The only reason you are doing so is that you are trying to prove the faction wall has been breached, doesn't matter and can you have your Blood Elf clone please. To reach such a conclusion, you have to ignore the very obvious efforts Blizzard went to differentiate Night Elves and Nightborne. And to differentiate Void Elves from Blood/High Elves at that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigxy the Lemming View Post
    I think it's also worth mentioning that people who complain that Nightborne is a copy-paste of the Night elf race NEVER played one, simply because... Blizzard is kinda stupid and haven't finished the model for character creation. Because when it's in-game, they actually stand differently.

    Compare above image with:

    Interesting. Turns out the Void Elves are closer to Blood Elves than Nightborne are to Night Elves. Still a considerable amount of distance though regardless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaira View Post
    Again they could just change stances for High Elves, Why is it ok for one but not the other?
    Because Nightborne have ten thousand years of separate societal and cultural evolution, because Void Elves got blasted by a ton of void energy that caused them to sprout tentacles and because Blood Elves ARE High Elves.

    That's why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaira View Post
    Again they could just change stances for High Elves, Why is it ok for one but not the other?
    What I'm getting from you at the moment is "Horde got this race that belonged to the Alliance, therefor we should get a race that belongs to the Horde, otherwise it's unfair."

    Wouldn't you say it's even more unfair when you have TWO different High Elf races on your side and Horde only gets one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaira View Post
    But No we are not asking for "Blood Elves" we are asking for the High Elves who have been associated with the Alliance and done many war campaigns WITH the Alliance for YEARS! If we wanted Blood Elves don't you think we would have been happy with Void elves because they literally ARE Blood Elf outcasts!

    Honestly sometimes I feel I'd get more sense out of a brick wall but I know a lot of the anti's are being antagonizing just to because...
    No need to to throw such minor insults at people. I've given praise to some of the pro-High Elves who throw in their own art design because they actually make them look good.

    I guess I don't have to repeat what Ion said regarding Blood Elves and High Elves being the same, so I won't. But hey, some of those High Elves are very interested in studying the void so what stops you from playing a Void Elf who used to be a blue eyed one before the change?

  18. #6458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigxy the Lemming View Post
    No need to to throw such minor insults at people. I've given praise to some of the pro-High Elves who throw in their own art design because they actually make them look good.

    I guess I don't have to repeat what Ion said regarding Blood Elves and High Elves being the same, so I won't. But hey, some of those High Elves are very interested in studying the void so what stops you from playing a Void Elf who used to be a blue eyed one before the change?
    Because that proves the unconfirmed yet probable suggestion that Void Elves are able to turn other thalassian elves into Void Elves. If that's proven, it means Void Elves can increase their population.

    This matters because if Void Elves don't have a cap on their population, then they are unaffected by the population issue Blizzard keeps bringing up when they are asked about playable High Elves. The usual retort to anyone bringing up the population issue as Blizzard has is to point to Void Elves and say 'if they're playable, population isn't an issue for High Elves'.

    Also because Void Elves are purple. Never forget that that is the real problem a lot of players have with Void Elves, as evidenced by the number of people who asked in the unofficial void elf threads for normal skin tones as a 'compromise'.

    Do you think there would still be this level of backlash if Void Elves looked like Blood/High Elves except for an optional tentacle in the hair?
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2018-06-08 at 07:00 PM.

  19. #6459
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigxy the Lemming View Post
    I mean, by that logic I guess you can agree with this a lot easier than everyone else that are Pro High-Elf:



    (Hint: They are the exact same aside from eye-colour and Blizzard said they are the same race.)

    But even so, Nightborne STILL got unique animations specific to them. High Elves? Nnnope.
    And as pointed out in this thread, High elves could get different stand animations, skintones and hairstyles, and then they'd be on par with Nightborne.

  20. #6460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    And as pointed out in this thread, High elves could get different stand animations, skintones and hairstyles, and then they'd be on par with Nightborne.
    Nightborne got that because they were differentiated lorewise from the Night Elves. There's a story about it.

    Void Elves got it because they WERE the thalassian elves differentiated from Blood/High Elves as you described. There's a story behind that too.

    Giving High Elves all of that for the sake of it isn't going to happen. There isn't any credible reason in lore behind such a development. And no, the Alliance is not hosting posture classes for High Elves.

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