1. #7041
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andromedes View Post
    Says someone, who is pleased that high elf fans arent satisfied with Ion's uneducated responses on that matter, where he contradicts himself with existence of void elves. But because he said it, it means it is true. Also having his quote in signature clearly shows, that you want to have civil discussion.

    What i mean by Ion contradicting himself?

    Jesse Cox: ''Are there any major hubs which high elf adventurers can come from? I dont think so''
    Ion: ''I dont think so. They have been assimilated to other cultures'' (even though they had to create hub for void elves on space rock, because they had no hubs, they didnt even exist. While High elves have established places, where they could come from.)

    Also Ion: ''High elves? Blood elves are pretty much High elves. Void elves are pretty much another flavor of High elves ''(which means Blood elves and Void elves are just flavors, which means Blood elves are void elves are high elves by that logic.)

    Also Ion: ''High elves are basically blood elves with different eye color, different backstory in terms of their relationship with magic and sunwell, by giving them to alliance, it would blur the lines. Also there is no clear example of who or what high elves are as a larger group that still remains in Azeroth. We just met Alleria for the first time, but they are not out there in a same way.'' (But an Actual BLOOD ELVES, who are dipped in void arent bluring faction lines, even though they have blood elven culture, and their main difference is skin color, which is basically just blood elf death knight skin color. Void elves, who are just elite crack squad somehow count as functional race with example of who they are, but somehow Silver covenant doesnt qualify to be high elven faction with common purpose or characteristics.)
    The desire for a civil discussion does not preclude me taking pleasure in my side of the argument clearly winning (and having the Game Director restate your point of view in public as the team's own is a win, no matter how much you would like to rationalize it away), nor am I going to deny that certain posters becoming unhappy at not getting what they wanted was an occasion for some well deserved schadenfreude, but only in regards to those individuals.

    As for your complaints regarding Blizzard's official statements on the matter, it all boils down to a simple truth. High Elves aren't playable on the Alliance because they are playable on the Horde, no matter what they now call themselves. Void Elves are the attempt to give the Alliance something like a Blood Elf, which is a High Elf yet has it's own flavour and doesn't step on Blood Elf toes. Void Elves are treated differently because they are different. That's the entire point.

  2. #7042
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    This is why I believe Blood Elves should have the option to have blue eyes. It's a valid customization request and I object to the notion that they should be held in reserve for a group that is never going to be added.
    Even if this did happen it shouldn't necessarily disregard High Elves from happening, but this is besides the point.

    Main thing I want to point out here is that if it does indeed keep being held out of reach (Blue Eyes for Blood Elves) then there must be some reasoning for why Blizzard is doing it so. My guess? The simplest one: Blue eyes are being used to signify High Elves, therefore this will be kept unique to differentiate that group. Whether they become playable or not is of no consequence, since currently that's being used to show the difference between the two physically.

    Just as very soon we'll have Night Elves who will be "Night Warriors" defined only by Dark Blue Eyes, with a slightly off-color skin. That's enough to distinguish them from regular Night Elves.

    I'll go on to extrapolate that we also will never see Wildhammer Dwarf tattoos added to current playable Dwarves, because that is their unique signature in how Blizzard portrays "this is a Wildhammer" vs "this is a Bronzebeard".

    I think that while Blizzard does make a lot of gameplay concessions, they are also very conservative about upholding their aesthetics and differentiations (hence Ion claiming high elves not 'unique' enough to warrant an AR atm, similar answer was given about WH dwarves).

    So the argument that "it's never going to be added therefore it shouldn't stay unique to NPCs" is a flawed one, since Blizzard can intentionally be doing it to keep things flavorful/unique.

    Blood Elves with Green Eyes is just way too iconic at this point, even if in this discussion many BE players are piping up now to say Blue Eyes should also be available because "we're the real high elves per Ion" it's not something iconic to Blood Elves and hasn't been since their release in World of Warcraft. Ion can keep being brought up, but what a developer says vs what is actually added to the game is a whole other ballpark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The only way for a Blood Elf player to feel like a real High Elf is to retain sole ownership of the concept, as every other other race WoW owns it's own concept.
    This is another issue I've been seeing a lot with the anti-HE peeps. "feel like a real High Elf" when the game, and now heritage armor scenario goes out of its way to showcase what it means to be a Blood Elf. This is what makes me believe why there is so much toxicity from Blood Elf players who are involved in this conversation. Because the truth is that most want to "feel like a real High Elf" when in fact they should be trying to own the Blood Elf concept. But these players come off as not wanting to, and that's where I see a lot of the opposition for getting High Elves added to Alliance coming from.

    Nevermind that Blood Elves focus much more on the Light now rather than Arcane, that they're much more pragmatic than idealistic, that they kept themselves xenophobic. Nope, they want to "feel like real High Elves" by dismissing what makes their character a Blood Elf and rally for their past society.

    The heritage armor scenario shows this for Blood Elves as that is what it's meant to do, but already I keep seeing so many Blood Elf players brushing it off as if didn't add anything new.

    This is like if Night Elf players made their characters out to be Highborne when that is a relic of their past and they don't have the claim to it anymore. Hence why Nightborne are filling out that niche.

  3. #7043
    what... this whole forum just makes me cringe... high elves ARE blood elves. Lor'Themar is 100% high elf and so was kael'thas, if you read the lore they just renamed themselves blood elves. either way, i wouldnt play an elf if i wasnt forced to play them.. lol (paladin in bc and now demon hunter). the only "difference" between them anasthetically is the color of the eyes, which blizzard now made blood elves able to have the gold eyes.... so there you go.
    Last edited by aikanaro; 2018-10-02 at 01:19 PM.
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  4. #7044
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    As for your complaints regarding Blizzard's official statements on the matter, it all boils down to a simple truth. High Elves aren't playable on the Alliance because they are playable on the Horde, no matter what they now call themselves. Void Elves are the attempt to give the Alliance something like a Blood Elf, which is a High Elf yet has it's own flavour and doesn't step on Blood Elf toes. Void Elves are treated differently because they are different. That's the entire point.
    And as i said, void elves are blood elves. They ride hawkstriders, they speak thalassian, they look like blood elves. Your arguments boil to one thing. That skin color makes them different. Blood elf death knights are still blood elves. They arent Death elves. Blood elf Demon hunters are still Blood elves, not Fel elves. Void elves are still blood elves no matter how they call themselves.

    Death knights, Demon hunters and Void elves share common things. Their skin color is different, they are elite squad, they are all blood elves infused with different powers. My point is, that we just play blood elves with different skin color, as oposed to race, that was with alliance all the time and had time to develop their culture. Sure skin color is bigger disctinction than eye color, but void elves are culturally blood elves. So we got horde race anyway.
    Last edited by Andromedes; 2018-10-02 at 01:57 PM.

  5. #7045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andromedes View Post
    My point is, that we just play blood elves with different skin color, as oposed to race, that was with alliance all the time and had time to develop their culture. Sure skin color is bigger disctinction than eye color, but void elves are culturally blood elves. So we got horde race anyway.
    Obelisk will most likely tell you that he doesn't like that Void Elves are a thing either but now that they're here nothing can be done about that. Which is funny because the same thing could be said (and I think he has said) about if High Elves were to get added as well. It's not something that would make any reasonable person stop playing/enjoying the game. Although I'm sure people will lash out regardless.

    Also indeed you are apt with your comparison to those other types of Blood Elves. Umbric also states in game that his people (and he refers to Blood Elves here) shouldn't have left the Alliance in the first place and tells the Void Elf player to continue working towards proving loyalty to the Alliance while at the same time believing that one day "the Horde's grip on our land will be broken, and the Children of Quel'Thalas will stand united once more". This indicates him being a Blood Elf still.

  6. #7046
    Quote Originally Posted by aikanaro View Post
    what... this whole forum just makes me cringe... high elves ARE blood elves. Lor'Themar is 100% high elf and so was kael'thas, if you read the lore they just renamed themselves blood elves. either way, i wouldnt play an elf if i wasnt forced to play them.. lol (paladin in bc and now demon hunter). the only "difference" between them anasthetically is the color of the eyes, which blizzard now made blood elves able to have the gold eyes.... so there you go.
    Cringiest post in almost 400 pages of posts ^

  7. #7047
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andromedes View Post
    And as i said, void elves are blood elves. They ride hawkstriders, they speak thalassian, they look like blood elves. Your arguments boil to one thing. That skin color makes them different. Blood elf death knights are still blood elves. They arent Death elves. Blood elf Demon hunters are still Blood elves, not Fel elves. Void elves are still blood elves no matter how they call themselves.

    Death knights, Demon hunters and Void elves share common things. Their skin color is different, they are elite squad, they are all blood elves infused with different powers. My point is, that we just play blood elves with different skin color, as oposed to race, that was with alliance all the time and had time to develop their culture. Sure skin color is bigger disctinction than eye color, but void elves are culturally blood elves. So we got horde race anyway.
    No, the void energies coursing their veins, the voices they hear, the tentacles they grow AND their skin colour makes them different. They are void mutants. They were Blood Elves but due to an event which you can experience, they are now different from Blood Elves. In the same way a Lightforged Draenei is not a regular Draenei as they got blasted with light energy. As Highmountain Tauren are not Mulgore Tauren as they carry the blessing of Cenarius and have antlers. In other words, the Void Elves carry something physically fundamental that differentiates them from ordinary Blood/High Elves.

    The Demon Hunter and Death Knight example is a good counterpoint, with the exception that those are defined as classes and not as races. Blood Elf Demon Hunters share their condition with Night Elf Demon Hunters and at some point in the future, the pool of races available to Demon Hunters will probably be expanded. Blood Elf Death Knights share their condition with all the other Death Knights, no matter the race, who were granted this necromantic powers and broke free from the Lich King.
    Blood Elf Death Knights and Blood Elf Demon hunters are distinct from ordinary Blood Elvesl, but their distinctions are not based on their race but on their class. In other words, Death Knights and Demon Hunters are not distinct racial groupings, nor are they intended to be.

    Void Elves clearly are. There are no Void Dwarves or Void Orcs or Void Night Elves. There are simply void infused thalassian elves. The distinction between them and Blood/High Elves is not only physical. Culturally they are not identical Blood/High Elves, as by necessity they must not have a connection to the Sunwell, nor would they be expected to venerate the light and they instead seem to be exalting the void. These are not unexpected developments. However, the cultures are roughly similar even if they have their own bells and whistles.

    As Ion said, 'Something that feels like a Blood Elf, but has it's own unique flavour'.

    It is these differences, both physical and the cultural focus on the void over the light, that differentiate Blood/High Elves from Void Elves and allow Void Elves to be their own thing. Similarity is the basis for the justification of an Allied race after all, but being exactly the same defeats the point.

    This is why Void Elves are a thing, and Alliance High Elves are not. Because one is provably different and one is identical to an existing race except in terms of political ideology.

    It is a curious cognitive dissonance at play here, attempting to prove Void Elves are somehow identical to Blood Elves (so as to render the rational for rejecting Alliance High Elves moot) whilst at the same time insisting Alliance High Elves are different from Blood Elves and are viable as an Allied race. It's a two pronged approach with each prong in tension with the other, but one that is easily resolvable. Blood Elves look exactly like one of the two groups...and the other group has schizophrenia and optional tentacles.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2018-10-02 at 04:00 PM.

  8. #7048
    It makes this entire thing all the more ridiculous considering blood elves have been implemented largely because Asian fans needed pretty elves to feel good while playing Horde. This is how they ruined the Horde for so many others who don't play for the pretty Asian character models, but now have to put up with elves added because these elves were added out of wrong reasons in the first place.

    You lot are basically arguing about something that Asian aesthetic appetites decided on, not the lore, not the reasoning behind cultural differences, not the plausibility through population number or anything else.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2018-10-02 at 04:02 PM.

  9. #7049
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    No, the void energies coursing their veins, the voices they hear, the tentacles they grow AND their skin colour makes them different.
    Demon hunters, fel energies coursing through their veins, they must control themselves to hold their demon within, the horns they grow and dark demonic skin color with fel cracks.. They should be different race and call themselves, a fel elves.
    They are no longer blood elves, because they are infused with different power, right? /s

    It doesnt matter if they are classified as class and void elves as a race. It is the same thing.

    Void elves are still the blood elves. Having different source of magic and skin color doesnt make them separate race. Same as supposedly high elves are still blood elves despite having different source of magic and eye color. The end. https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...om-blood-elves
    Last edited by Andromedes; 2018-10-02 at 04:22 PM.

  10. #7050
    Alliance's warfront shield mage NPCs are High Elves.

    But if you want High Elves, the Horde is waiting for you.

  11. #7051
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The desire for a civil discussion does not preclude me taking pleasure in my side of the argument clearly winning (and having the Game Director restate your point of view in public as the team's own is a win, no matter how much you would like to rationalize it away), nor am I going to deny that certain posters becoming unhappy at not getting what they wanted was an occasion for some well deserved schadenfreude, but only in regards to those individuals.

    As for your complaints regarding Blizzard's official statements on the matter, it all boils down to a simple truth. High Elves aren't playable on the Alliance because they are playable on the Horde, no matter what they now call themselves. Void Elves are the attempt to give the Alliance something like a Blood Elf, which is a High Elf yet has it's own flavour and doesn't step on Blood Elf toes. Void Elves are treated differently because they are different. That's the entire point.
    hazzikostas has never given a legitimate defense against adding them.

    literally the only slightly reasonable thing i've seen said about it is that it'd probably drain the horde population by a lot, since most of the horde is blood elves that would switch to helf.

    their approach to magic is different from blood elves, their outlook on life in general is different, their political leanings are far different.

    blood elves idealize doing whatever it takes to survive, and while the majority of the populace is averse to fel, it's not illegal and some are practitioners.

    there's also the population argument. as in, there's no argument anymore. lightforged? not exactly a thriving group. void elves? you're literally just one of umbric's followers from before their exile. you're not one of the new ones being trained, because they're NOT going to purposefully corrupt people like that.

  12. #7052
    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    literally the only slightly reasonable thing i've seen said about it is that it'd probably drain the horde population by a lot, since most of the horde is blood elves that would switch to helf.
    And that is debunked, because high elves are supposedly requested by few high elven fanatics. Also if high elves were locked behind some reputation gate, not many people (or guilds according to doomsayers) would migrate to alliance.

  13. #7053
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andromedes View Post
    And that is debunked, because high elves are supposedly requested by few high elven fanatics. Also if high elves were locked behind some reputation gate, not many people (or guilds according to doomsayers) would migrate to alliance.
    Not to mention that if "Void Elves are our High Elves" then we should've seen a huge population shift to Alliance right?

    Nope, the disparity between Horde and Alliance has gotten even bigger at 120 than it was at 110. What used to be a 5% disparity in favor of Horde is now at least a 10% disparity in favor of Horde.

    What's interesting though is that Void Elves are the 4th most populous race on Alliance, beating out Dwarves, Gnomes, and Worgen which have been in the game for far longer. Whereas on Horde side Nightborne and Highmountain Tauren still pale in comparison to the non-Allied Horde races. Only Nightborne beating out Goblins, and Highmountain coming out least in all of them.

    Interestingly, Lightforged Draenei do not beat any of the other Alliance races out in population at 120.

    I can only imagine the greater popularity High Elves pop numbers would've achieved. It's obvious the "High Elf" model is very well done.

    https://realmpop.com/us.html (Move sliders to 120)

  14. #7054
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Void Elves clearly are. There are no Void Dwarves or Void Orcs or Void Night Elves. There are simply void infused thalassian elves. The distinction between them and Blood/High Elves is not only physical. Culturally they are not identical Blood/High Elves, as by necessity they must not have a connection to the Sunwell, nor would they be expected to venerate the light and they instead seem to be exalting the void. These are not unexpected developments. However, the cultures are roughly similar even if they have their own bells and whistles.
    They're certainly more unique, biologically, than people often give them credit for.

    It's fairly common to see things like, "Void Elves are just Blood Elves who bit off more Void than they could chew, and it corrupted their bodies". It isn't a strictly inaccurate generalized statement, but I fail to understand the purpose (in the context of someone using it to justify playable High Elves) -- especially if the intent it to suggest that taking [Race #1], and subjecting some of them to some magical calamity in order to provide the narrative foundation for [Race #2], is somehow a terrible design philosophy.

    If it's "terrible narrative" when Blood Elves get dipped in Void, why isn't it "terrible narrative" for Dark Iron Dwarves, or Worgen, or Lightforged Draenei, or Nightborne, or even Mag'har Orcs (who would be a reversal of a calamitous event, in this case)?

    Personally, I can't find a single issue with Void Elves as a standalone group. That isn't really what the question in these last few hundred pages has been about, though, is it? Instead, the question being asked is generally, "are Void Elves close enough to High Elves that they will be widely considered to be an acceptable stand-in for the latter?"

    I suspect the answer, for the time being, is "no".

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    It is a curious cognitive dissonance at play here, attempting to prove Void Elves are somehow identical to Blood Elves (so as to render the rational for rejecting Alliance High Elves moot) whilst at the same time insisting Alliance High Elves are different from Blood Elves and are viable as an Allied race. It's a two pronged approach with each prong in tension with the other, but one that is easily resolvable. Blood Elves look exactly like one of the two groups...and the other group has schizophrenia and optional tentacles.
    This only really applies to the physical appearance angle of the discussion. If you focus very specifically on the culture/mannerisms of the groups in question, it's almost eerie how much the Void Elves resemble the Burning Crusade-era Blood Elves.

    As you have said, different bells and whistles to distract the eye, but that's about all these is to differentiate them behaviorally. The two groups have obviously come to different political conclusions, and have a different level of comfort with risk/reward scenarios, but ultimately they are behaviorally identical. I would even go so far as to say that Void Elves are "more Blood Elf than Blood Elves", in the sense that their current mindset mirrors that of the pre-SWP Blood Elves. They're hot-headed, reckless, unscrupulous, in some cases aggressive, and with a tilt towards being unhinged (Island Expedition Lady, looking at you).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Void Elves clearly are. There are no Void Dwarves or Void Orcs or Void Night Elves. There are simply void infused thalassian elves. The distinction between them and Blood/High Elves is not only physical. Culturally they are not identical Blood/High Elves, as by necessity they must not have a connection to the Sunwell, nor would they be expected to venerate the light and they instead seem to be exalting the void. These are not unexpected developments. However, the cultures are roughly similar even if they have their own bells and whistles.
    They're certainly more unique, biologically, than people often give them credit for.

    It's fairly common to see things like, "Void Elves are just Blood Elves who bit off more Void than they could chew, and it corrupted their bodies". It isn't a strictly inaccurate generalized statement, but I fail to understand the purpose (in the context of someone using it to justify playable High Elves) -- especially if the intent it to suggest that taking [Race #1], and subjecting some of them to some magical calamity in order to provide the narrative foundation for [Race #2], is somehow a terrible design philosophy.

    If it's "terrible narrative" when Blood Elves get dipped in Void, why isn't it "terrible narrative" for Dark Iron Dwarves, or Worgen, or Lightforged Draenei, or Nightborne, or even Mag'har Orcs (who would be a reversal of a calamitous event, in this case)?

    Personally, I can't find a single issue with Void Elves as a standalone group. That isn't really what the question in these last few hundred pages has been about, though, is it? Instead, the question being asked is generally, "are Void Elves close enough to High Elves that they will be widely considered to be an acceptable stand-in for the latter?"

    I suspect the answer, for the time being, is "no".

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    It is a curious cognitive dissonance at play here, attempting to prove Void Elves are somehow identical to Blood Elves (so as to render the rational for rejecting Alliance High Elves moot) whilst at the same time insisting Alliance High Elves are different from Blood Elves and are viable as an Allied race. It's a two pronged approach with each prong in tension with the other, but one that is easily resolvable. Blood Elves look exactly like one of the two groups...and the other group has schizophrenia and optional tentacles.
    This only really applies to the physical appearance angle of the discussion. If you focus very specifically on the culture/mannerisms of the groups in question, it's almost eerie how much the Void Elves resemble the Burning Crusade-era Blood Elves.

    As you have said, different bells and whistles to distract the eye, but that's about all there is to differentiate them behaviorally. The two groups have obviously come to different political conclusions, and have a different level of comfort with risk/reward scenarios, but ultimately they are behaviorally identical. I would even go so far as to say that Void Elves are "more Blood Elf than Blood Elves", in the sense that their current mindset mirrors that of the pre-SWP Blood Elves. They're hot-headed, reckless, unscrupulous, in some cases aggressive, and with a tilt towards being unhinged (Island Expedition Lady, looking at you).

  15. #7055
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    They're certainly more unique, biologically, than people often give them credit for.

    It's fairly common to see things like, "Void Elves are just Blood Elves who bit off more Void than they could chew, and it corrupted their bodies". It isn't a strictly inaccurate generalized statement, but I fail to understand the purpose (in the context of someone using it to justify playable High Elves) -- especially if the intent it to suggest that taking [Race #1], and subjecting some of them to some magical calamity in order to provide the narrative foundation for [Race #2], is somehow a terrible design philosophy.
    I was just talking about how Ion contradict himself, it wasnt supposed to justify high elves over void elves. Just saying that anything ion used against high elves, could be used against void elves as well.

  16. #7056
    Jesus all that's left of this horse is a scattered skeleton and you guys are still beating it? Fuck me...

    Ok, might as well contribute.

    There is no lore reason as to High Elves looking physically different from Belves (minus eye color and if Blizz wanted they could totally justify Belves receiving blue eyes as additional customization options) so if the Alliance did get them then what would the Horde get that's just as lazy as a belf copy paste. Cuz there would be no chance in hell for the Alliance to get a copy paste while the horde gets a new race or brand new skin of an existing race.

    Yeah, we get it the alliance has High elves in their ranks. However, just because something exists in the lore doesn't mean it needs to be accessible to players. In that case you might as well give the Alliance playable SI:7 goblins as well since they do exist in their ranks.

    Fuck it might as well make EVERY SINGLE FUCKING humanoid race playable then right. We wouldn't wanna make every special snowflake feel left out cuz they can't play forest trolls or Gnolls.

  17. #7057
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    There is no lore reason as to High Elves looking physically different from Belves (minus eye color and if Blizz wanted they could totally justify Belves receiving blue eyes as additional customization options) so if the Alliance did get them then what would the Horde get that's just as lazy as a belf copy paste. Cuz there would be no chance in hell for the Alliance to get a copy paste while the horde gets a new race or brand new skin of an existing race.
    There wasn't a lore reason for Kul'Tirans to look different either until Blizzard decided to make it so. The customization options discussed here are meant to showcase the possibility and themes that High Elves can work with.

    Who knows, Blizzard could even do something completely else than what's listed here (inb4 Void Elves: know your lore that they're all Blood Elves so far) and make lore to support it. We've seen them not adverse to doing that with many other races already (Lightforged weren't a thing until Legion Argus patch, Kul'Tirans etc).

    What's funny is these themes discussed here are themes that will never be presented for Blood Elves and in Obelisk's own words: It would be selfish to keep those themes unrepresented just because some smol group of BE players think Farstriders are still a major theme representation for Blood Elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Yeah, we get it the alliance has High elves in their ranks. However, just because something exists in the lore doesn't mean it needs to be accessible to players. In that case you might as well give the Alliance playable SI:7 goblins as well since they do exist in their ranks.
    You're equating 1 SI:7 Goblin to multiple numbers of High Elf NPCs strewn around everywhere as Alliance citizens and military personnel. That's all that needs to be said for this argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Fuck it might as well make EVERY SINGLE FUCKING humanoid race playable then right. We wouldn't wanna make every special snowflake feel left out cuz they can't play forest trolls or Gnolls.
    There's obviously popular races and unpopular races. Just because there's an enormous list of humanoid races players want playable (I guarantee you someone out there in the millions of players that WoW has, every humanoid race has been requested or hoped to be playable). You seem to equate wanting a race to wanting to feel like a special snowflake when it's actually those that are trying to restrict races because they don't want to STOP feeling like special snowflakes.

    There's obviously arguments around to not adding High Elves but these ones you've posted are pretty poor ones.

  18. #7058
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    It makes this entire thing all the more ridiculous considering blood elves have been implemented largely because Asian fans needed pretty elves to feel good while playing Horde. This is how they ruined the Horde for so many others who don't play for the pretty Asian character models, but now have to put up with elves added because these elves were added out of wrong reasons in the first place.

    You lot are basically arguing about something that Asian aesthetic appetites decided on, not the lore, not the reasoning behind cultural differences, not the plausibility through population number or anything else.
    Them redeeming themselves after at one point being dependent on fel magic made them shoe-ins for the horde and you know it. And that's not a WoW invention like uncorrupted draenei, that's from WCIII.

    Vashj: There are other fonts of magic in this world, Prince Kael. Demons, for instance...

  19. #7059
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Them redeeming themselves after at one point being dependent on fel magic made them shoe-ins for the horde and you know it. And that's not a WoW invention like uncorrupted draenei, that's from WCIII.
    Speaking of Warcraft 3, there was nothing for them to redeem themselves from, unlike the orcs which had a lot to own up to. Blood elves were forced into a plot of redemption because association with the Horde meant Blizzard had to disassociate playable blood elves from Kael'thas, which in turn meant they had to turn him into a villain first (Kael'thas' death was no less wasteful than Illidan's).

    The Asian aesthetic brigade is behind the blood elves being forced away from Kael'thas and into the Horde, not fel addiction. The developer interview simply sheds further light into what pretty much everyone, who can keep an objective mindset in regards to either side of this discussion, knew for a long time and that is that the Horde was considered "ugly" and Blizzard wanted to even the "my pretty character" balance. You can also quite easily tell that everything about it was pure fan service because high elves were exclusively tagged as Alliance during classic WoW, but were not made playable.

    Blood elves should've been a standalone faction, perhaps one of unison with the naga and other highborne-related races. Another thing that could've worked is a faction comprised of blood elves, undead elves and undead humans, as they share a common line of being imperilled by the Scourge.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2018-10-03 at 10:03 AM.

  20. #7060
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    They're certainly more unique, biologically, than people often give them credit for.

    It's fairly common to see things like, "Void Elves are just Blood Elves who bit off more Void than they could chew, and it corrupted their bodies". It isn't a strictly inaccurate generalized statement, but I fail to understand the purpose (in the context of someone using it to justify playable High Elves) -- especially if the intent it to suggest that taking [Race #1], and subjecting some of them to some magical calamity in order to provide the narrative foundation for [Race #2], is somehow a terrible design philosophy.

    If it's "terrible narrative" when Blood Elves get dipped in Void, why isn't it "terrible narrative" for Dark Iron Dwarves, or Worgen, or Lightforged Draenei, or Nightborne, or even Mag'har Orcs (who would be a reversal of a calamitous event, in this case)?

    Personally, I can't find a single issue with Void Elves as a standalone group. That isn't really what the question in these last few hundred pages has been about, though, is it? Instead, the question being asked is generally, "are Void Elves close enough to High Elves that they will be widely considered to be an acceptable stand-in for the latter?"

    I suspect the answer, for the time being, is "no".
    Void Elves, unlike other Allied races, carry the stain of a terrible sin. That sin is that they are not the High Elves. Anyone not invested in the pro High Elf side of the debate can see Void Elves for what they were intended to be. A variant of a long requested thalassian elf available to the Alliance, but with it's own thematic spin so as not to step on the toes of the Horde Blood Elves.

    Anyone invested in the pro High Elf side of the debate does not, as you say, regard Void Elves as an acceptable stand in for High Elves. I would say there is a measure of entitlement here, in that they are the ones who generated the demand for Alliance thalassian elves and argued for years (and years) to get it to happen. I can even agree that to a point that entitlement is understandable, as they are the ones who argued for it.

    Getting Void Elves at the end might be considered akin to the classic players finding out they are really getting a 4.3 version of the game, i.e. Catalcysm in the patch LFR launched. A complete disappointment.

    On the other hand, whilst their disappointment is understandable, the reasons that Void Elves were provided and not Alliance High Elves are also understandable. Firstly, while the pro High Elf community argued for this, they are not the entire Alliance nor the entire warcraft community. Blizzard has a responsibility to the entire community (and this includes Blood Elf players) and a responsibility to the integrity of their game.

    The entire Warcraft community was not seeking a duplicate of an existing race be added, sacrificing a precious allied race slot that would have been spent on something fresh and innovative. Like them or loath them (and I am not keen I admit), there is no other race with the theme of the Void Elves in the game.

    Blood Elf players would have to contend with a copy of the race they were invested in being made available to the Alliance, a group who would inevitably seek to define themselves against the Blood Elves they were physically identical to by insisting they were the true High Elves.

    And Blizzard would have compromised the integrity of the game's faction system by taking a race explicitly introduced as Horde unique a decade ago and making them de facto neutral.

    Anyone not invested in the pro High Elf side, who sits down and analysed the situation rationally, can see why their addition as a playable race was just not going to happen.

    Void Elves allowed Blizzard to try and meet the demand in the context of the new Allied race system, where each Allied race is a variant on an existing race, the variance being something distinctive and noticeable.

    The Lightforged Draenei are the white Draenei with the cool beards or weird horns.
    The Nightborne are the Arcane Elves with the unusual wardrobe, jet blue skin and pure white hair.
    The Highmountain Tauren are Tauren with Moose Horns.
    And the Void Elves are the blue blood Elves with tentacles.

    As for the emphasis on Void Elves being Blood Elves, i think that's a false narrative. It is an attempt to paint Void Elves as being barely different from Blood Elves, despite confirmation that Blood Elves ARE High Elves. If Void Elves are Blood Elves, then they are High Elves and so there shouldn't be any complaints.

    The prosaic truth is that Void Elves used to be Blood Elves, but are now biologically different, to a similar degree other Allied races are different from their parents.. Blood Elves however ARE High Elves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    This only really applies to the physical appearance angle of the discussion. If you focus very specifically on the culture/mannerisms of the groups in question, it's almost eerie how much the Void Elves resemble the Burning Crusade-era Blood Elves.
    Which I acknowledge and which should be welcomed. The Blood Elf storyline in TBC was interesting, but it also drew to an end with the restoration of the Sunwell. The Void Elves pick up a narrative thread which was abandoned and which offers a rich seem of potential.

    It is curious you specify the 'burning crusade-era' Blood Elves as the point of comparison, and not Blood Elves generally, and I thank you for that precision. The TBC Blood Elves were their civilization at it's lowest ebb. The Sunwell gone, they were torturing a Naaru out of genuine and desperate necessity (but this was a moral outrage as they would acknowledge later), most of their people were dead and their leadership was consorting with the Legion. Yet now that is in the past.
    So what are the Blood Elves now, if the TBC era is behind them? They are what they were before the dark times they ever faced. Culturally, thematically and appearance wise, they are the High Elves again, or at least what the High Elves would have been had they been faced with a similar trauma yet kept the name.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    As you have said, different bells and whistles to distract the eye, but that's about all these is to differentiate them behaviorally. The two groups have obviously come to different political conclusions, and have a different level of comfort with risk/reward scenarios, but ultimately they are behaviorally identical. I would even go so far as to say that Void Elves are "more Blood Elf than Blood Elves", in the sense that their current mindset mirrors that of the pre-SWP Blood Elves. They're hot-headed, reckless, unscrupulous, in some cases aggressive, and with a tilt towards being unhinged (Island Expedition Lady, looking at you).
    I would argue that the Blood Elves have reverted to being themselves now the addiction has been sated and they've rebuilt somewhat. The thing is, the Elves were always haughty, self-centered and arrogant. Just as they are today. The only thing I reckon that has changed between the pre-scourge Elves and the post-scourge Elves is that the xenophobia which characterized most of the race has literally been beaten out of them. They know isolationism for the lie it is now.

    But the Void Elves are following the path of the TBC era Blood Elves now. In fact, that's their storyline now, as unlike the Blood Elves who had a narrative off ramp from that plotline through the restoration of the Sunwell, the Void Elves are defined by their shadow powers and theme.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2018-10-03 at 12:55 PM.

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