Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Starla]

Oh ungrateful. You know what players like you are the reason why the lore sucks now. So tried of dealing with this BS. Special Snowflake my ass. I don't care if I get another false report because you butthurt entitled baby blood elf players can't respect anything in this damn game. Fuck off.

If anything it's posts like this that prove the fanatical Helfers are the ones who are trying to ruin the game.

[Obelisk Kai]

If anything it's posts like this that prove the fanatical Helfers are the ones who are trying to ruin the game.

It's probably best not to judge the entire community by Lionknight/WoWJedi/Runicknight's hyperbole. That individual holds those of us opposed to playable High Elves responsible for their absence, rather than Blizzard attempting to keep the factions separate and has been known to be prone to rants, one of which is memorialised in @Aeula's signature as the evidence has since been deleted.

If you wanted a pro High Elfer to debate I think @RangerDaz would be the best. I mean I utterly disagree with Daz don't get me wrong, but we have had civil conversations on this topic.

[FlubberPuddy]

Well I guess since this thread is back to the front page

https://www.wowhead.com/news=287534/...rmor-questline

The elves reflect on what it means to be sin'dorei:

For thousands of years, the Sunwell meant everything to our people. Arthas dealt us a grievous wound when he defiled it.
My faith was shattered when Silvermoon fell. I lost sight of who I was. But by the grace of the Light, I found redemption before it was too late.
Let this monument serve as a reminder of what it means to be sin'dorei. That our every deed may honor the sacrifices of those who came before us.
No matter how much pain we endure, we will not lose hope. In the face of darkness, look always to the Eternal Sun.
We must put this misery behind us. We are no longer high elves! In honor of the blood that was shed and the sacrifices of our loved ones... as of this day, we are sin'dorei!

So again, Blizzard (Ion) says one thing and adds in another into the game. Scenario differentiates what being a Blood Elf means and its narrative further reinforces they don't consider themselves to be High Elves, going so far as to not imply a simple name change but more impactful identity change. That following the Light, moving forward, and putting their tragedy behind them are all core to being a Blood Elf.

[Starla]

It's probably best not to judge the entire community by Lionknight/WoWJedi/Runicknight's hyperbole. That individual holds those of us opposed to playable High Elves responsible for their absence, rather than Blizzard attempting to keep the factions separate and has been known to be prone to rants, one of which is memorialised in @Aeula's signature as the evidence has since been deleted.

If you wanted a pro High Elfer to debate I think @RangerDaz would be the best. I mean I utterly disagree with Daz don't get me wrong, but we have had civil conversations on this topic.

Is there really anything left to debate? I see us only rehashing the same old, same old. And now the High Elf discord is just filled with repeated mantras, hate for Ion, hate for Blood Elf players and hate for Horde. After months of discussion on the WoW forums there seems nothing left to say that hasn't already been said. And how dare anyone ask for blue eyes for Blood Elves when their group takes personal offense at it?
Oi...sorry seems I've gotten frustrated.

[Andromedes]

You seem to be obsessed with what high elf fans think, when you even go on their discord. It is not healthy to be concerned about things that frustrate you.

And how dare anyone ask for blue eyes for Blood Elves when their group takes personal offense at it?

Because people can already play blue eyed Blood elves, they are called Void elves. So those posts are spam at this point.

[Obelisk Kai]

Is there really anything left to debate? I see us only rehashing the same old, same old. And now the High Elf discord is just filled with repeated mantras, hate for Ion, hate for Blood Elf players and hate for Horde. After months of discussion on the WoW forums there seems nothing left to say that hasn't already been said. And how dare anyone ask for blue eyes for Blood Elves when their group takes personal offense at it?
Oi...sorry seems I've gotten frustrated.

There isn't anything left to debate at all. It's all been said and done over the years, the only difference is new people come and go as they despair of the topic or find something better to do. I started saving the threads I participated in in a folder after a while relating to this topic and it currently sits at 58 (although half of them have been created since summer 2017 when the first references to void elves were datamined). Earliest one I have a record for was in March 2013 which must be when I started saving them in the folder.

It used to go in cycles you see. About six to seven months before an expansion would launch the pro High Elf threads would start. And then the antis would argue against it. It would start slowly as first, and then increase in pace in the run up to the announcement. I remember it being very bad (this year has been worse, but up until that point summer/autumn 2013 was awful) in the run up to the Warlords of Draenor announcement and then, the announcement, no news on High Elves and everyone would go back to playing the game. The pro High Elf posters would voice disappointment (well it wasn't a community back then) but they'd go 'maybe next time'. There were, believe it or not, very long stretches of time where the High Elf debate was dormant.

To understand why it has changed, and the High Elf spam has grown incessant, you have to understand the pro High Elf thought process over the years. For the longest time, what kept them going was the promise of a sub-race system. The idea was, a system would be put in place allowing a mild cosmetic variant of an existing race (in this case the Blood Elves) to be brought into the game. If High Elves weren't different enough to be a 'main' race, then they could be an Alliance aligned sub-race.

You can find an example of this here https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...d-you-play-one

Ion had made the comment that they were thinking about adding a sub-race system in the future and he off-handedly mentioned High Elves and Brown Orcs. So that it seems became the shining star for many years, the sub-race system that would one day bring them playable High Elves.

And then BFA was announced along with the long awaited sub-race system and....Void Elves. The system that many of the pro High Elf community had been waiting for, would deliver them Alliance High Elves, was here but instead of getting Alliance High Elves they got a variant. Same model, same people, but blue and with optional tentacles. The phrase I heard bandied about at the time was 'Monkey's Paw' where the result of the wish is not the one intended. I figure there was deep disappointment. This was compounded the next day when Ion Hazzikostas revealed in a live stream with Jessie Cox that Blizzard considered Blood Elves, playable High Elves and that Void Elves were a variant.

I believe the reason this provoked such a strong reaction among the pro High Elf community, even moreso than the Void Elves reveal, was because of the long debate with the Anti High Elf posters. The core of the Anti High Elf argument has always been that nomenclature is unimportant. No matter what they call themselves, Blood Elves are culturally, thematically and physically identical to High Elves. They ARE High Elves and a change in adjective doesn't change the fact that they are still the same people as they were before Arthas invaded. So whenever pro and anti commentators went at it, every Anti made the point that High Elves were already playable as Blood Elves. And the pros would argue back that they weren't. Except this was different. This wasn't an Anti high elf poster. This was the senior-most developer using anti High Elf language. Rather than it being the varying opinions of two groups of people with a keyboard, the Game Director validated the Anti High Elf argument.

People like me were proven correct in our interpretation and our arguments.

Which led to the six month period between November 2017 and late April 2018, when the pro High Elf community organised into a community. They opened their discord, began manufacturing artwork (this thread originally began as an attempt by the OP to show High Elves as an Allied race) and they began spamming every wow related forum they could find with pro High Elf topics. That then devolved into shouting matches between pro and anti commentators. While the frequency has decreased, there are usually threads on the topic active on any wow forum. You can even find one now on the US forums.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9327305?page=1

Bonus points if you find Lionknight. His commentary is unique and stands out.

The tragedy of the pro High Elf community in that six month period is that they fell for their own hype. The idea was to convince Blizzard to change their minds and add Alliance High Elves. And they thought they were making a difference. A Blizzard employee named Candace Thomas mentioned on her personal twitter account that she likes the idea of playable High Elves (something I wonder if she regrets as the pro High Elf community now makes sure they tag her in every piece of art or every suggestion they come up with). Jeremy Feasal, aka Muffinus, cracked a harmless joke about playable High Elves and sent them into a frenzy. Any acknowledgement at all was translated into 'WE ARE WINNING'. You could tell at the time they felt they had momentum behind them, that it was just a matter of time before Blizzard gave in and announced them.

And then April 26th rolled around, the Q and A. It's a date I remember as my flight back to Ireland from Stansted was delayed for six hours so it sticks in my mind, that was seriously unpleasant. I have ventured onto the High Elf discord twice in my time. Once by accident, when I clicked into it and then rapidly clicked out, and then once much later at work when I had some downtime and my curiosity got the better of me. I never regarded the first access as seriously going in, but I have perused it now so I can't say I've never been in the High Elf discord anymore. I guess I was curious to see what exactly the reaction was from April 26th, and it was pretty much what I expected. Complete meltdown, same as it was here. As I said, they fell victim to their own hype. They really believed they were winning. But Ion came out and just restated what he said at Blizzcon, making clear nothing had changed and that six months of work had rewarded diddly squat.

Some conceded with dignity. Traycor, whose admittedly wonderful artwork can be found at the beginning of this post has moved on. I often wished he had been inspired by another group within WoW rather than Alliance High Elves, but that was not to be. Others are still pretty vitriolic.

A lot of anger is directed at Ion of course. It's classic scapegoating. He is held responsible for the decision to block High Elves, no matter how many times it is pointed out in forums that development on WoW is team based and the decision can't have been his alone. Still, the simplistic idea has formed that if Ion is fired or if he leaves that the next Game Director will give them what they want.

Still, that's essentially why we are where we are on this topic in my opinion. It's a long running debate that has been ignited because the mechanism the pro High Elf community has been waiting for to enable playable High Elves has been provided...and at the exact same moment the Anti High Elf position was validated by Blizzard.

There is only one thing that will bring the debate to an end in my opinion. It is not giving Blood Elves blue eyes. Nor is it allowing Alliance High Elves, as that has been explicitly ruled out (for very good reasons) and a thalassian variant clearly intended as a compromise has been implemented.

The Alliance High Elf story, such as it is, has to be brought to an end. Which really means Veressa's story. Alliance High Elves do exist after all. I have long considered them a story prop, adding depth and texture to the game world, an acknowledgement that at once point the Elves of Silvermoon were part of the Alliance, even if the vast majority of them are now a part of the Horde. Yet if the demand for them is causing Alliance players to have a negative attitude towards Void Elves, because Void Elves can never be what they some want them to be (a blue eyed duplicate of a core Horde race)...then they need to go.

A Silvermoon/Quel'thalas warfront could be the logical moment to bring that story to an end, leaving only the light based Blood Elves who embody the traditional Tolkienesque elf and the Void Elves to carry the story forward. However, if that is not to be, we have to accept that these threads will probably be with us for a while yet.

[FlubberPuddy]

There isn't anything left to debate at all. It's all been said and done over the years, the only difference is new people come and go as they despair of the topic or find something better to do. I started saving the threads I participated in in a folder after a while relating to this topic and it currently sits at 58 (although half of them have been created since summer 2017 when the first references to void elves were datamined). Earliest one I have a record for was in March 2013 which must be when I started saving them in the folder.

It used to go in cycles you see. About six to seven months before an expansion would launch the pro High Elf threads would start. And then the antis would argue against it. It would start slowly as first, and then increase in pace in the run up to the announcement. I remember it being very bad (this year has been worse, but up until that point summer/autumn 2013 was awful) in the run up to the Warlords of Draenor announcement and then, the announcement, no news on High Elves and everyone would go back to playing the game. The pro High Elf posters would voice disappointment (well it wasn't a community back then) but they'd go 'maybe next time'. There were, believe it or not, very long stretches of time where the High Elf debate was dormant.

To understand why it has changed, and the High Elf spam has grown incessant, you have to understand the pro High Elf thought process over the years. For the longest time, what kept them going was the promise of a sub-race system. The idea was, a system would be put in place allowing a mild cosmetic variant of an existing race (in this case the Blood Elves) to be brought into the game. If High Elves weren't different enough to be a 'main' race, then they could be an Alliance aligned sub-race.

You can find an example of this here https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...d-you-play-one

Ion had made the comment that they were thinking about adding a sub-race system in the future and he off-handedly mentioned High Elves and Brown Orcs. So that it seems became the shining star for many years, the sub-race system that would one day bring them playable High Elves.

And then BFA was announced along with the long awaited sub-race system and....Void Elves. The system that many of the pro High Elf community had been waiting for, would deliver them Alliance High Elves, was here but instead of getting Alliance High Elves they got a variant. Same model, same people, but blue and with optional tentacles. The phrase I heard bandied about at the time was 'Monkey's Paw' where the result of the wish is not the one intended. I figure there was deep disappointment. This was compounded the next day when Ion Hazzikostas revealed in a live stream with Jessie Cox that Blizzard considered Blood Elves, playable High Elves and that Void Elves were a variant.

I believe the reason this provoked such a strong reaction among the pro High Elf community, even moreso than the Void Elves reveal, was because of the long debate with the Anti High Elf posters. The core of the Anti High Elf argument has always been that nomenclature is unimportant. No matter what they call themselves, Blood Elves are culturally, thematically and physically identical to High Elves. They ARE High Elves and a change in adjective doesn't change the fact that they are still the same people as they were before Arthas invaded. So whenever pro and anti commentators went at it, every Anti made the point that High Elves were already playable as Blood Elves. And the pros would argue back that they weren't. Except this was different. This wasn't an Anti high elf poster. This was the senior-most developer using anti High Elf language. Rather than it being the varying opinions of two groups of people with a keyboard, the Game Director validated the Anti High Elf argument.

People like me were proven correct in our interpretation and our arguments.

Which led to the six month period between November 2017 and late April 2018, when the pro High Elf community organised into a community. They opened their discord, began manufacturing artwork (this thread originally began as an attempt by the OP to show High Elves as an Allied race) and they began spamming every wow related forum they could find with pro High Elf topics. That then devolved into shouting matches between pro and anti commentators. While the frequency has decreased, there are usually threads on the topic active on any wow forum. You can even find one now on the US forums.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9327305?page=1

Bonus points if you find Lionknight. His commentary is unique and stands out.

The tragedy of the pro High Elf community in that six month period is that they fell for their own hype. The idea was to convince Blizzard to change their minds and add Alliance High Elves. And they thought they were making a difference. A Blizzard employee named Candace Thomas mentioned on her personal twitter account that she likes the idea of playable High Elves (something I wonder if she regrets as the pro High Elf community now makes sure they tag her in every piece of art or every suggestion they come up with). Jeremy Feasal, aka Muffinus, cracked a harmless joke about playable High Elves and sent them into a frenzy. Any acknowledgement at all was translated into 'WE ARE WINNING'. You could tell at the time they felt they had momentum behind them, that it was just a matter of time before Blizzard gave in and announced them.

And then April 26th rolled around, the Q and A. It's a date I remember as my flight back to Ireland from Gatwick was delayed for six hours so it sticks in my mind, that was seriously unpleasant. I have ventured onto the High Elf discord twice in my time. Once by accident, when I clicked into it and then rapidly clicked out, and then once much later at work when I had some downtime and my curiosity got the better of me. I never regarded the first access as seriously going in, but I have perused it now so I can't say I've never been in the High Elf discord anymore. I guess I was curious to see what exactly the reaction was from April 26th, and it was pretty much what I expected. Complete meltdown, same as it was here. As I said, they fell victim to their own hype. They really believed they were winning. But Ion came out and just restated what he said at Blizzcon, making clear nothing had changed and that six months of work had rewarded diddly squat.

Some conceded with dignity. Traycor, whose admittedly wonderful artwork can be found at the beginning of this post has moved on. I often wished he had been inspired by another group within WoW rather than Alliance High Elves, but that was not to be. Others are still pretty vitriolic.

A lot of anger is directed at Ion of course. It's classic scapegoating. He is held responsible for the decision to block High Elves, no matter how many times it is pointed out in forums that development on WoW is team based and the decision can't have been his alone. Still, the simplistic idea has formed that if Ion is fired or if he leaves that the next Game Director will give them what they want.

Still, that's essentially why we are where we are on this topic in my opinion. It's a long running debate that has been ignited because the mechanism the pro High Elf community has been waiting for to enable playable High Elves has been provided...and at the exact same moment the Anti High Elf position was validated by Blizzard.

There is only one thing that will bring the debate to an end in my opinion. It is not giving Blood Elves blue eyes. Nor is it allowing Alliance High Elves, as that has been explicitly ruled out (for very good reasons) and a thalassian variant clearly intended as a compromise has been implemented.

The Alliance High Elf story, such as it is, has to be brought to an end. Which really means Veressa's story. Alliance High Elves do exist after all. I have long considered them a story prop, adding depth and texture to the game world, an acknowledgement that at once point the Elves of Silvermoon were part of the Alliance, even if the vast majority of them are now a part of the Horde. Yet if the demand for them is causing Alliance players to have a negative attitude towards Void Elves, because Void Elves can never be what they some want them to be (a blue eyed duplicate of a core Horde race)...then they need to go.

A Silvermoon/Quel'thalas warfront could be the logical moment to bring that story to an end, leaving only the light based Blood Elves who embody the traditional Tolkienesque elf and the Void Elves to carry the story forward. However, if that is not to be, we have to accept that these threads will probably be with us for a while yet.

Ironically, a Silvermoon warfront would actually progress the Alliance High Elf story even more. Nighthold showed the different elf groups (Sin'dorei, Quel'dorei, Kaldorei) all represented in something that had mainly to do with Kaldorei only.

To expect that a Silvermoon warfront, of which Alliance High Elves would for sure feature in as well, would put an end to debate is pretty absurd. "Let's end this debate by giving them even MOAR story!"

The same sort of speculation rose up when Anti-helfers presumed with full confidence in themselves that Vereesa and all High Elves would end up dead at the burning of Teldrassil when there was no evidence to the contrary. Unlike the High Elf side that can continually produce evidence of High Elf involvement on Alliance side. No other unplayable group continues to be represented through each expansion as High Elves do for Alliance.

But then again, the fact that Obelisk is someone who has apparently been collecting a folder of these topics sort of shows a level of obsession that few people have, probably being too engrossed into the topic can cause that? Idk.

No the way to end the topic/debate is if Blizzard just ignored and stopped adding High Elves to Alliance areas. The best way to make something disappear is to not talk about it. Nowhere in the story is it showing that High Elves are dwindling, therefore to think adding more story will dwindle them is confounding.

[Doffen]

I changed from "whahaha Void Elves" when the first rumours came to be, to "oh they are cool" when it was announced. And now it's "Void Elves mmmm <3 <3 <3 ^^

They couldn't have modeled them any better, best "race" addition in a long time. When you kill the Void Elf lady in Island Expedition, and she starts laughing LMAO!

Sin' and Ren'dorei ftw!

[Sigxy]

When you kill the Void Elf lady in Island Expedition, and she starts laughing LMAO!

I actually wish more Void Elves were like her, I think it fits the Void Elf personality perfectly!

[Doffen]

I actually wish more Void Elves were like her, I think it fits the Void Elf personality perfectly!

Yeah, she is very cool, insane, but cool

The other two male sounds like Blood Elves, in the way they talk, I guess they learned how to deal with the Void or something, but the lady(Shadeweaver Zarra) totally lost it, and that is funny :P

[Fyersing]

I would have preferred Void Elves on the Horde too and Nightborne for the Alliance. The storyline could even have been tweaked to produce such a result. Instead of being instantly hostile towards the Nightborne, Tyrande could have been sympathetic and accommodating. Instead of the Void Elves being saved by Alleria, Umbric's experiments could have drawn the attention of Sylvanas who could have agreed the Void Elves would serve the Horde (despite Rommath's protestations. But as we've seen, ignoring Rommath and paying for it later seems to be a problem within the Horde).

An additional point of note is that the Horde was already home to an unscrupulous-type, Forsaken, which would've provided a platform for the Void Elves to thrive within the narrative (meaning, it'd be easy to tether Void Elves and Forsaken together as a "voting bloc" for the Horde); similarly, the Alliance is already home to a group of egregiously arrogant knife-ears, Highborne, who could've easily been utilized as a narrative springboard for the Nightborne insofar as internal politics go.

Simple. They wanted to give the Alliance a thalassian elf model in order to appease some of the sentiment for a playable High Elf. Blizzard was listening to the demand for all these years. They knew it existed. Yet the barriers I long argued (in threads that existed many years before this one) would hamper High Elves being added proved insumountable for them and they created a variant instead. Once you understand that the variant was designed as an attempted compromise, to give the Alliance something that was a bit like a Blood Elf (which is a High Elf) but with a unique flavour of it's own, you understand just how little chance there is of them going back and granting pure High Elves to the Alliance. Yes, they couldn't satisfy the hard core of High Elf fans. I don't think they ever thought they could. Every choice they make has a group of people unhappy with it. They knew they couldn't make everyone happy.

I would argue that Blizzard's internal dilemma regarding implementing playable High Elves has always been more about not disenfranchising the sizable portion of the playerbase that currently play as Blood Elves. If their primary goal was appeasing the fans of High Elves, then they'd just implement playable HE's and respond to the cries from the Horde with gems like, "you think you care, but you don't".

That is set of priorities that I, personally, can absolutely agree with. I feel like regardless of any other opinions on the subject of Blood Elves, generally, we can all agree that since they're a playable faction already (and theoretical playable High Elves aren't) they shouldn't have to worry about losing out on things that were developments to their particular narrative(s), so that Blizzard can "make room" for additional races.

I do however object to two of your statements. I see little chance of Blizzard scrapping the iconic Horde and Alliance factions and would vehemently argue against it. Scrapping the factions is one of those ideas like a third faction that most people like discussing, but know in their bones Blizzard is never going to do. Seeing people who want High Elves argue for it because it would allow them to play a non void thalassian with Allliance friends is too big a demand by far.

Agreed. It would solve this particular issue, though.

I'm curious about your thoughts on how the game might function if Alliance and Horde continued to exist, as plot devices to drive narrative development, but as much less centralized organizations and largely co-operative with each other?

You might expect to see both Horde and Alliance being represented at most/all major conflicts, each with a different perspective and approach to the issue of the day, but ultimately this doesn't affect who we (the players) can and cannot form a party/raid/guild with. I would maintain that the races remain attached to their faction, as opposed to being "free agents", but be capable of cordial relations with people from the other faction.

Secondly, your belief that the Night Elves and Blood Elves ended up on the wrong factions. When the choice was made behind the scenes to adopt a faction based approach to the game world, the Night Elves had to go somewhere, and it was never going to be the Orcs who killed Cenarius and who needed to chop down their wood in Ashenvale. Similarly the Blood Elves had to go somewhere, and it wasn't going to be with the Humans who sentenced them to death and who were appalled by their magical addiction. Each race had only one choice of two and they ended up where they were always fated to go.

And both have flourished within their respective factions, becoming mainstays of each.

They have flourished, this is true.

I'm more concerned with them being culturally asynchronous with the member-states of their respective factions. It also doesn't seem extremely far-fetched that the Night Elves would be capable of forgiving an aggression, when doing so results in them rekindling an ancient friendship (Tauren) and aligning themselves with two new races whose mannerisms mirror their own (Orcs, Trolls).

That scenario doesn't present as being any more far-fetched than Blood Elves forgiving an aggression (also perpetrated by Orcs), when doing so results in attaching themselves to the remainder of the group which annihilated their nation (Forsaken), a group which invaded and slaughtered thousands of their outlaying citizenry (Orcs), and a group that was at the time indistinguishable from their only ancestral enemies (Trolls).

I think I would've just started the game with the Night Elves on the Horde and the Forsaken on the Alliance. This followed by High Elves for the Alliance, and Ogres for the Horde, in TBC. Everything else can remain the same. The obvious problem with this being there wouldn't be any Draenei. Though, both WoD and Legion might've been adequate times to release them (as they got more story in WoD than they had in all of the content from TBC through MoP).

[RangerDaz]

It's probably best not to judge the entire community by Lionknight/WoWJedi/Runicknight's hyperbole. That individual holds those of us opposed to playable High Elves responsible for their absence, rather than Blizzard attempting to keep the factions separate and has been known to be prone to rants, one of which is memorialised in @Aeula's signature as the evidence has since been deleted.

If you wanted a pro High Elfer to debate I think @RangerDaz would be the best. I mean I utterly disagree with Daz don't get me wrong, but we have had civil conversations on this topic.

Well, i thank you for the compliment. And also for the civil discussions that we had in the past, even though we were always on the opposite side related to Alliance High Elves, lol

Unfortunately, like many other people here, i also had some not so good experiences in discussions with other posters (whether it was related to high elves or something else, because yes, i talk about lots of things here ). Sometimes i feel some people are not interested in debating ideas, but instead diminishing the person with whom they don't agree with, and this kind of attitude just keeps bringing toxicity into the forums, instead of constructive debates about the game we all like (or liked, for fans who no longer relate to the game).

Above all, we are all humans and passionate for the game, or else none of us would be or have registered accounts in these forums for fans of World of Warcraft. We can all reduce the toxicity here, if we all respect each others' opinions as discuss in a civilized way, i guess.

But saying this in the Alliance High Elves thread is probably asking too much, because this might be the most controversial issue in wow playbase in the last months I guess it never is too late to try

- - - Updated - - -

Well I guess since this thread is back to the front page

https://www.wowhead.com/news=287534/...rmor-questline

The elves reflect on what it means to be sin'dorei:


So again, Blizzard (Ion) says one thing and adds in another into the game. Scenario differentiates what being a Blood Elf means and its narrative further reinforces they don't consider themselves to be High Elves, going so far as to not imply a simple name change but more impactful identity change. That following the Light, moving forward, and putting their tragedy behind them are all core to being a Blood Elf.

Well, the evidences surely are all there!
hopefully Ion won't see it before it comes live, and doesn't force to change the script lol

[FlubberPuddy]

Well, the evidence surely is all there!
hopefully Ion won't see it before it comes live, and doesn't force to change the script lol

Yes it's still PTR data-mining so it is subjective to change. Interesting that the first iteration about it contains this though, if it does stay then that means they consider the narrative to be that High Elves aren't Blood Elves, and that Blood Elves don't identify as High Elves. Further disconnecting Blood Elf identity from what was said on the matter by Ion.

But what's even more is that it showcases how much more prominent the Light is in reverence now compared to their Arcane history.

[Obelisk Kai]

An additional point of note is that the Horde was already home to an unscrupulous-type, Forsaken, which would've provided a platform for the Void Elves to thrive within the narrative (meaning, it'd be easy to tether Void Elves and Forsaken together as a "voting bloc" for the Horde); similarly, the Alliance is already home to a group of egregiously arrogant knife-ears, Highborne, who could've easily been utilized as a narrative springboard for the Nightborne insofar as internal politics go.

So it COULD have happened. This is not to say the way things worked out wasn't plausible. The rationales for the Void Elves and the Nightborne ending up where they did make sense, but things worked out the way they did because of an underlying design decision.

I believe the reason the Nightborne exist at all, and that Suramar wasn't just filled with ordinary Night Elves, was as a quid pro quo for the existence of a Blood Elf variant going to the Alliance. See, I figure when Ion said 'high elves' back in 2014 (and at the time he wasn't accused by the pro High Elf community of being ignorant, oh no) he was just plucking popular requests out of the air in his answer.

This is what I wrote back in the day

'In fact, what EXACTLY does he say in response to a query about sub-races

"That is not currently the plan for Warlords of Draenor. Though, we've definitely heard player interest in some kind of sub-races and whether or not that means brown-skinned orcs, or High Elves or...(searches for another example of the top of his head. Interviewer says Iron Dwarves. Hazzikostas waves in an acknowledging gesture)...exactly, that could be very cool and it's something that gets our artists really excited when we talk about it.'

Absolutely nothing confirmed. Still a fantastic likelihood this will not come to pass once they sit and start looking at the drawbacks.

This is before Blizzard even builds the idea, tests it, and actually considers what sub-races they want to use. Call me in two years after Blizzcon'15 but all he's done is likely raised your hopes for nothing.

My belief was that once they sat down to actually build the system, they would realize High Elves were not viable as a choice due to being identical to Blood Elves. I later theorized that a High Elf variant was likely but that it would be probably be a form of Withered. I was wrong on the specifics, but I called what would happen dead right. They couldn't add High Elves and created a variant. And I believe Nightborne were created in response, the quid pro quo.

I would argue that Blizzard's internal dilemma regarding implementing playable High Elves has always been more about not disenfranchising the sizable portion of the playerbase that currently play as Blood Elves. If their primary goal was appeasing the fans of High Elves, then they'd just implement playable HE's and respond to the cries from the Horde with gems like, "you think you care, but you don't".

Exactly. Too often the pro High Elf community dismisses the core of the opposition, that the High Elves are already playable. That is what a Blood Elf is, a High Elf even if they no longer call themselves that. That is an important aspect for the 'feel' of being a Blood Elf. If Alliance High Elves were made playable, then by virtue of the name alone they would get to define what a High Elf is to the deteriment of the Blood Elves. The only way for a Blood Elf player to feel like a real High Elf is to retain sole ownership of the concept, as every other other race WoW owns it's own concept. Alliance High Elves would enfranchise a tiny minority, both in game and out, to define themselves as the true custodians of the trope and the Blood Elves (and Void Elves) as freaks, traitors and monsters.

That is set of priorities that I, personally, can absolutely agree with. I feel like regardless of any other opinions on the subject of Blood Elves, generally, we can all agree that since they're a playable faction already (and theoretical playable High Elves aren't) they shouldn't have to worry about losing out on things that were developments to their particular narrative(s), so that Blizzard can "make room" for additional races.

Again, agreed. This is why I believe Blood Elves should have the option to have blue eyes. It's a valid customization request and I object to the notion that they should be held in reserve for a group that is never going to be added.

Agreed. It would solve this particular issue, though.

I'm curious about your thoughts on how the game might function if Alliance and Horde continued to exist, as plot devices to drive narrative development, but as much less centralized organizations and largely co-operative with each other?

You might expect to see both Horde and Alliance being represented at most/all major conflicts, each with a different perspective and approach to the issue of the day, but ultimately this doesn't affect who we (the players) can and cannot form a party/raid/guild with. I would maintain that the races remain attached to their faction, as opposed to being "free agents", but be capable of cordial relations with people from the other faction.

Even after this war ends, does anyone really foresee a time when Night Elf and Forsaken can break bread in friendship? I don't. If anything this war is going to make things worse. It will be another cold peace.

The problem is one of perspective. We are titans of our faction, we have been called to work together with the other side from time to time. But the grunts and soldiers just see the enemy in the other side and always will. Just because some of the people at the top have glimpsed a possible better future doesn't mean that translates on the ground.

I believe the game will function as it continues to do so. Living where I do, I am a great believer in the tenacity of hate. It persists. It endures. It grows cold but can be restoked with new fuel after a time. I have never been one to accept that because the Alliance and Horde have, on occasion, found unity of purpose that it means they are destined to wither away. Not only does Blizzard have a business interest in keeping the two iconic factions going, but a lot of players are invested in those factions as well in a way I rarely see in other video games but I would actually find the story MORE unbelievable if they buried the hatchet and began living in harmony.

They have flourished, this is true.

I'm more concerned with them being culturally asynchronous with the member-states of their respective factions. It also doesn't seem extremely far-fetched that the Night Elves would be capable of forgiving an aggression, when doing so results in them rekindling an ancient friendship (Tauren) and aligning themselves with two new races whose mannerisms mirror their own (Orcs, Trolls).

That scenario doesn't present as being any more far-fetched than Blood Elves forgiving an aggression (also perpetrated by Orcs), when doing so results in attaching themselves to the remainder of the group which annihilated their nation (Forsaken), a group which invaded and slaughtered thousands of their outlaying citizenry (Orcs), and a group that was at the time indistinguishable from their only ancestral enemies (Trolls).

I think I would've just started the game with the Night Elves on the Horde and the Forsaken on the Alliance. This followed by High Elves for the Alliance, and Ogres for the Horde, in TBC. Everything else can remain the same. The obvious problem with this being there wouldn't be any Draenei. Though, both WoD and Legion might've been adequate times to release them (as they got more story in WoD than they had in all of the content from TBC through MoP).

Yet while people would have accepted those scenarios if the lore had been written in such a way to support them, that is the past now. Same with Alliance Nightborne and Horde Void Elves, it could have worked right up until the moment the decisions were made and the stories became canon rather than proposition. Now they are impossible what might have beens.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, i thank you for the compliment. And also for the civil discussions that we had in the past, even though we were always on the opposite side related to Alliance High Elves, lol

Unfortunately, like many other people here, i also had some not so good experiences in discussions with other posters (whether it was related to high elves or something else, because yes, i talk about lots of things here ). Sometimes i feel some people are not interested in debating ideas, but instead diminishing the person with whom they don't agree with, and this kind of attitude just keeps bringing toxicity into the forums, instead of constructive debates about the game we all like (or liked, for fans who no longer relate to the game).

Above all, we are all humans and passionate for the game, or else none of us would be or have registered accounts in these forums for fans of World of Warcraft. We can all reduce the toxicity here, if we all respect each others' opinions as discuss in a civilized way, i guess.

But saying this in the Alliance High Elves thread is probably asking too much, because this might be the most controversial issue in wow playbase in the last months I guess it never is too late to try

Indeed, this is one of the more toxic subjects in the game and it is hard to have a proper discussion on it. But we can but try.

Well, the evidences surely are all there!
hopefully Ion won't see it before it comes live, and doesn't force to change the script lol

Not necessarily. Remember, nomenclature is unimportant. The name change was to signify a recognition that things won't be the same for them anymore. But in every important aspect, culture, theme and even biology they are the same people as they were before the invasion.

They are still Elves. They still make pilgrimages to the Sunwell. Thematically they are the standard Tolkien style elf trope with a warcraft spin. Word of God confirms that just because they changed their name, it doesn't mean they aren't High Elves. Importantly, it just reaffirms that the difference between the Blood Elves and the Alliance High Elves is eye colour, an adjective and an ideology.

That isn't enough to argue the Alliance High Elves are a worthy Allied race, which they aren't, only that the Alliance High Elves possess a different ideology.

[Andromedes]

Indeed, this is one of the more toxic subjects in the game and it is hard to have a proper discussion on it. But we can but try.

Says someone, who is pleased that high elf fans arent satisfied with Ion's uneducated responses on that matter, where he contradicts himself with existence of void elves. But because he said it, it means it is true. Also having his quote in signature clearly shows, that you want to have civil discussion.

What i mean by Ion contradicting himself?

Jesse Cox: ''Are there any major hubs which high elf adventurers can come from? I dont think so''
Ion: ''I dont think so. They have been assimilated to other cultures'' (even though they had to create hub for void elves on space rock, because they had no hubs, they didnt even exist. While High elves have established places, where they could come from.)

Also Ion: ''High elves? Blood elves are pretty much High elves. Void elves are pretty much another flavor of High elves ''(which means Blood elves and Void elves are just flavors, which means Blood elves are void elves are high elves by that logic.)

Also Ion: ''High elves are basically blood elves with different eye color, different backstory in terms of their relationship with magic and sunwell, by giving them to alliance, it would blur the lines. Also there is no clear example of who or what high elves are as a larger group that still remains in Azeroth. We just met Alleria for the first time, but they are not out there in a same way.'' (But an Actual BLOOD ELVES, who are dipped in void arent bluring faction lines, even though they have blood elven culture, and their main difference is skin color, which is basically just blood elf death knight skin color. Void elves, who are just elite crack squad somehow count as functional race with example of who they are, but somehow Silver covenant doesnt qualify to be high elven faction with common purpose or characteristics.)

[Obelisk Kai]

Says someone, who is pleased that high elf fans arent satisfied with Ion's uneducated responses on that matter, where he contradicts himself with existence of void elves. But because he said it, it means it is true. Also having his quote in signature clearly shows, that you want to have civil discussion.

What i mean by Ion contradicting himself?

Jesse Cox: ''Are there any major hubs which high elf adventurers can come from? I dont think so''
Ion: ''I dont think so. They have been assimilated to other cultures'' (even though they had to create hub for void elves on space rock, because they had no hubs, they didnt even exist. While High elves have established places, where they could come from.)

Also Ion: ''High elves? Blood elves are pretty much High elves. Void elves are pretty much another flavor of High elves ''(which means Blood elves and Void elves are just flavors, which means Blood elves are void elves are high elves by that logic.)

Also Ion: ''High elves are basically blood elves with different eye color, different backstory in terms of their relationship with magic and sunwell, by giving them to alliance, it would blur the lines. Also there is no clear example of who or what high elves are as a larger group that still remains in Azeroth. We just met Alleria for the first time, but they are not out there in a same way.'' (But an Actual BLOOD ELVES, who are dipped in void arent bluring faction lines, even though they have blood elven culture, and their main difference is skin color, which is basically just blood elf death knight skin color. Void elves, who are just elite crack squad somehow count as functional race with example of who they are, but somehow Silver covenant doesnt qualify to be high elven faction with common purpose or characteristics.)

The desire for a civil discussion does not preclude me taking pleasure in my side of the argument clearly winning (and having the Game Director restate your point of view in public as the team's own is a win, no matter how much you would like to rationalize it away), nor am I going to deny that certain posters becoming unhappy at not getting what they wanted was an occasion for some well deserved schadenfreude, but only in regards to those individuals.

As for your complaints regarding Blizzard's official statements on the matter, it all boils down to a simple truth. High Elves aren't playable on the Alliance because they are playable on the Horde, no matter what they now call themselves. Void Elves are the attempt to give the Alliance something like a Blood Elf, which is a High Elf yet has it's own flavour and doesn't step on Blood Elf toes. Void Elves are treated differently because they are different. That's the entire point.

[FlubberPuddy]

This is why I believe Blood Elves should have the option to have blue eyes. It's a valid customization request and I object to the notion that they should be held in reserve for a group that is never going to be added.

Even if this did happen it shouldn't necessarily disregard High Elves from happening, but this is besides the point.

Main thing I want to point out here is that if it does indeed keep being held out of reach (Blue Eyes for Blood Elves) then there must be some reasoning for why Blizzard is doing it so. My guess? The simplest one: Blue eyes are being used to signify High Elves, therefore this will be kept unique to differentiate that group. Whether they become playable or not is of no consequence, since currently that's being used to show the difference between the two physically.

Just as very soon we'll have Night Elves who will be "Night Warriors" defined only by Dark Blue Eyes, with a slightly off-color skin. That's enough to distinguish them from regular Night Elves.

I'll go on to extrapolate that we also will never see Wildhammer Dwarf tattoos added to current playable Dwarves, because that is their unique signature in how Blizzard portrays "this is a Wildhammer" vs "this is a Bronzebeard".

I think that while Blizzard does make a lot of gameplay concessions, they are also very conservative about upholding their aesthetics and differentiations (hence Ion claiming high elves not 'unique' enough to warrant an AR atm, similar answer was given about WH dwarves).

So the argument that "it's never going to be added therefore it shouldn't stay unique to NPCs" is a flawed one, since Blizzard can intentionally be doing it to keep things flavorful/unique.

Blood Elves with Green Eyes is just way too iconic at this point, even if in this discussion many BE players are piping up now to say Blue Eyes should also be available because "we're the real high elves per Ion" it's not something iconic to Blood Elves and hasn't been since their release in World of Warcraft. Ion can keep being brought up, but what a developer says vs what is actually added to the game is a whole other ballpark.

The only way for a Blood Elf player to feel like a real High Elf is to retain sole ownership of the concept, as every other other race WoW owns it's own concept.

This is another issue I've been seeing a lot with the anti-HE peeps. "feel like a real High Elf" when the game, and now heritage armor scenario goes out of its way to showcase what it means to be a Blood Elf. This is what makes me believe why there is so much toxicity from Blood Elf players who are involved in this conversation. Because the truth is that most want to "feel like a real High Elf" when in fact they should be trying to own the Blood Elf concept. But these players come off as not wanting to, and that's where I see a lot of the opposition for getting High Elves added to Alliance coming from.

Nevermind that Blood Elves focus much more on the Light now rather than Arcane, that they're much more pragmatic than idealistic, that they kept themselves xenophobic. Nope, they want to "feel like real High Elves" by dismissing what makes their character a Blood Elf and rally for their past society.

The heritage armor scenario shows this for Blood Elves as that is what it's meant to do, but already I keep seeing so many Blood Elf players brushing it off as if didn't add anything new.

This is like if Night Elf players made their characters out to be Highborne when that is a relic of their past and they don't have the claim to it anymore. Hence why Nightborne are filling out that niche.

[aikanaro]

what... this whole forum just makes me cringe... high elves ARE blood elves. Lor'Themar is 100% high elf and so was kael'thas, if you read the lore they just renamed themselves blood elves. either way, i wouldnt play an elf if i wasnt forced to play them.. lol (paladin in bc and now demon hunter). the only "difference" between them anasthetically is the color of the eyes, which blizzard now made blood elves able to have the gold eyes.... so there you go.

[Andromedes]

As for your complaints regarding Blizzard's official statements on the matter, it all boils down to a simple truth. High Elves aren't playable on the Alliance because they are playable on the Horde, no matter what they now call themselves. Void Elves are the attempt to give the Alliance something like a Blood Elf, which is a High Elf yet has it's own flavour and doesn't step on Blood Elf toes. Void Elves are treated differently because they are different. That's the entire point.

And as i said, void elves are blood elves. They ride hawkstriders, they speak thalassian, they look like blood elves. Your arguments boil to one thing. That skin color makes them different. Blood elf death knights are still blood elves. They arent Death elves. Blood elf Demon hunters are still Blood elves, not Fel elves. Void elves are still blood elves no matter how they call themselves.

Death knights, Demon hunters and Void elves share common things. Their skin color is different, they are elite squad, they are all blood elves infused with different powers. My point is, that we just play blood elves with different skin color, as oposed to race, that was with alliance all the time and had time to develop their culture. Sure skin color is bigger disctinction than eye color, but void elves are culturally blood elves. So we got horde race anyway.

[FlubberPuddy]

My point is, that we just play blood elves with different skin color, as oposed to race, that was with alliance all the time and had time to develop their culture. Sure skin color is bigger disctinction than eye color, but void elves are culturally blood elves. So we got horde race anyway.

Obelisk will most likely tell you that he doesn't like that Void Elves are a thing either but now that they're here nothing can be done about that. Which is funny because the same thing could be said (and I think he has said) about if High Elves were to get added as well. It's not something that would make any reasonable person stop playing/enjoying the game. Although I'm sure people will lash out regardless.

Also indeed you are apt with your comparison to those other types of Blood Elves. Umbric also states in game that his people (and he refers to Blood Elves here) shouldn't have left the Alliance in the first place and tells the Void Elf player to continue working towards proving loyalty to the Alliance while at the same time believing that one day "the Horde's grip on our land will be broken, and the Children of Quel'Thalas will stand united once more". This indicates him being a Blood Elf still.