Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Wyrt]

What? Think of new races? The very concept of allied races is to add subraces, pretty much every allied race is a minor subfaction of corresponding pc race. High Elves fit like a glove to this philosophy - they are a minor subfaction of blood elves, basically those thalassian elves who never left the alliance.

Except Allied Races are ones that are physically different from the main race counterpart.

And eye color change is not significant enough difference as has already been proven by both yellow eyed blood elves and black eyed night elves.

[Andromedes]

This madness has gone on far too long. These 'fans' that refuse to see the Bloodelves as the continuance of the Highelven story (as well as the Silver Covenant as part of the Bloodelf story) has gone to worrisome levels.

Yeah sure, everything is part of blood elf story. I guess orcs are just part of human story and forsaken are just part of lich king story.

[melzas]

Except Allied Races are ones that are physically different from the main race counterpart.

And eye color change is not significant enough difference as has already been proven by both yellow eyed blood elves and black eyed night elves.

Isn't eye color exactly the difference of LF dreanei vs regular ones? They also have different haircuts and some tatoos, but high elves could have that too.

[Deleted]

The very idea of the Highelven were a split of the Highborne from the Nightelves, as the Nightelves focused on nature and the Highborne on magic.

The High elven are the elves based on magical capability. The Nightelf concept are elves based on the wilds and the hunts. You're taking the nightelf concept and trying to toss it onto the Highelven. Yes Farstriders exist, but even -they- were immersed in magical capability.

This madness has gone on far too long. These 'fans' that refuse to see the Bloodelves as the continuance of the Highelven story (as well as the Silver Covenant as part of the Bloodelf story) has gone to worrisome levels.

Think of new races, new flavors for WoW. Stop trying to push a concept that would further dilute it.

you seems quite objective with that picture of yours.

[Deleted]

Dude, finally somebody with an IQ higher than 60

[Wyrt]

Isn't eye color exactly the difference of LF dreanei vs regular ones? They also have different haircuts and some tatoos, but high elves could have that too.

All of their customization options are different. Skin, hair, horns, tattoos, glowy thingy, etc.

[Andromedes]

All of their customization options are different. Skin, hair, horns, tattoos, glowy thingy, etc.

Which is weird, because they are just draenei, who are enhanced with more light.. They cant just grow different horns as non-enhanced draenei. Or can they? I believe same artistic freedom could be used for high elves.

I believe new Lor'themar's model uses human skeleton. It wouldnt look too bad, if high elves got human skeleton.

[Wyrt]

Which is weird, because they are just draenei, who are enhanced with more light.. They cant just grow different horns as non-enhanced draenei. Or can they? I believe same artistic freedom could be used for high elves.

They've also been completely separate from other draenei for 25,000 years.

[Darthaes]

What? Think of new races? The very concept of allied races is to add subraces, pretty much every allied race is a minor subfaction of corresponding pc race. High Elves fit like a glove to this philosophy - they are a minor subfaction of blood elves, basically those thalassian elves who never left the alliance.

They arent a minor subfaction. They -are- them. They are just 2 separate organizations because of politics.

This is the main issue with Helf fans. They refuse to see them for what they are and insist on a distinction to the point of another race.

What racials could Silver covenant possible have that Quel'thalas does not? They are all linked to the Sunwell and all have the same culture.

Why would their appearance be so vastly different?

Even the Lightforged Draenei, that have such subtle differences, have a very different story from their kin. They were separated for over 25,000 years, with the Lightforged being transformed and forged by the light into something new, and the Draenei jumping from world to world and attempting to survive with their faith in the future and salvation.

[Andromedes]

They've also been completely separate from other draenei for 25,000 years.

They were, but we know how draenei looked 25000 years ago, and they looked same like present draenei. Different horns is just artistic freedom. Yrel already had those horns in WoD, which are available only to lightforged draenei.

[melzas]

They arent a minor subfaction. They -are- them. They are just 2 separate organizations because of politics.

This is the main issue with Helf fans. They refuse to see them for what they are and insist on a distinction to the point of another race.

What racials could Silver covenant possible have that Quel'thalas does not? They are all linked to the Sunwell and all have the same culture.

Why would their appearance be so vastly different?

Even the Lightforged Draenei, that have such subtle differences, have a very different story from their kin. They were separated for over 25,000 years, with the Lightforged being transformed and forged by the light into something new, and the Draenei jumping from world to world and attempting to survive with their faith in the future and salvation.

All things considered, high elves are more different from blood elves attitude wise than LF from standard dreanei, who share very similar ideaologies (fight the demons and praise the Light).

And even if helves shared the same racials as belves, why would that even matter (also HM tauren dont share racials with standard tauren, even though they arent didferent at all).

Those are all silly arguments, the only real reason I can see why they wont add helves is that it would take away uniqueness from belves. Even the "blurring the faction lines" argument is silly, seeing as we have pandaren and velves and nightborne look exactly like belves/night elves if you put them in full armor that covers heads.

[Obelisk Kai]

To disregard the political difference and all the change that such alignment leads to is very dismissive. The fact that High Elves have chosen to be allied to the alliance changes everything about them, each day more. A political difference that leads to demographic, geographical and environmental difference is not something that can be mere handwaved.

I think you misread my point. I am not disregarding the political allegiance at all. I am instead saying that is in fact the fundamental difference and that that is not enough to justify their inclusion as an allied race. In terms of demographics, Elisande's comment implies they are giving rise to Half Elves which is unsurprising given their circumstances, their location in the Human city of Dalaran.

High Elves are ex-pats, their own cultural identity changing by living hosted my another culture, their own bloodline being called into question by their peers. There is something very purposefully disingenuous at calling the High Elves thematically unrecognizable from Blood Elves when everything about their context is different, with both cultural and biological changes already present in their own identity.

I do not believe there is a cultural or thematic variance between High Elves and Blood Elves. Both use the same architecture, although the High Elves now colour it blue for political reasons. But both dress the same. Both call their top Mages Magisters. Both conduct pilgrimages to the Sunwell and hold it in reverence (although the question of High Elf access in recent years has not been addressed). The Silver Covenant itself, while a paramilitary unit loyal to the Kirin Tor and explicitly anti Horde, is set up to ape the Farstriders with Veressa taking the title of Ranger-General, which is used by the Farstrider leader. The High Elves feel like what they are, political exiles pining for the day they can go home and take power in a restoration. I can't recall a single cultural difference between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves that isn't actually a political difference brought on by their allegiance to the Alliance. And as for biological, I believe that is restricted to eye colour and as we have learned this year, elf eye colour is mutable due to magical ambience and cannot be regarded as being definitive of who they are.

TAnd to make this point, when Void Elves, who culturally are Blood Elves, who were BE like 8 months ago, whose difference is so far patently aesthetic and philosophical, weakens the previous point.

I've bolded the relevant point. While Void Elves are former Blood Elves (and thus High Elves), it is the fact they no longer are that allows them to be playable. And why are they allowed to be playable? Because they got blasted by Void energy in a transformative process. The flooding of their body with void energy severed their connection with the Sunwell (it must have, there is no way a void based lifeform could be connected in any way to a light based energy source) and as such severed their connection with the core of what defines Blood/High Elf civilization (just as they were defined by it's absence following it's temporary destruction).

Whether Alliance High Elves start to define themselves as the "true" high elves is moot. Who are the true heirs of the Kaldorei legacy? Nightborne or Night Elves?

Night Elves are as they are biologically the same as the original Night Elves. The Nightborne preserved the culture of the Highborne and enhanced it, and the Nightwell changed them as a people. And Nightborne are playable as an allied race, whilst Night Elf Highborne (a group of exiles from mainstream Kaldorei society) aren't an allied race because Night Elf Highborne are identical to Night Elves of any other class. It was a political difference that led to them holing up in Dire Maul, and once that was resolved they became playable as Night Elf Mages.

The lore already has made the idea of heritage text with them, the notion such thematic is also brought up by HE/BE doesn't matter. Specially when HE wouldn't be on the right given they are a splinter culture faction who has been heavily influenced by human culture can't be the truest expression of Thalassian Culture. Or even that Silver Covenant HE could be typified as being noticeably hybridized with humans, to the point that part of their loyalty is explicitly due to said fact (ie, humans are as much as part of their family as other elves)

I understand wanting to support a pro BE stance is, but Silver Covenant High Elves have a lot more going on in relation to their place as members of the alliance to what they "take away" from Blood Elves. But as long as BE stances qualify everything that the SCHE could be as taking away from BE lore, there's not much room for an unbiased conversation.

I disagree that the Silver Covenant has much going on in relation to the Alliance. I acknowledge their presence, and we can draw the line from Warcraft 2 to the modern Alliance, but I fundamentally cannot accept the High Elves are a major Alliance race.

On almost every occasion the Silver Covenant has shown up, from WOTLK to Legion, it has been with the Kirin Tor. Even the High Elf force in Legion outside Suramar was accompanied by Kirin Tor Peacekeepers who outnumbered them. The only occasion where the Kirin Tor didn't accompany them was outside Zul Aman and that was just an 'in' for Alliance players in 4.2.

As for why we qualify everything they could be as taking away from BE lore, that is a point put forward because we believe it to be true. Take the tattoos options put forward as a way of differentiating Alliance High Elves from Horde Blood Elves. What is the source of these tattoos? Warcraft 2 High Elves. Who are the Blood Elves? The vast majority of the Warcraft 2 High Elves who switched sides. So the tattoos are a legacy for all thalassian elves. So why would only Alliance High Elves have them, and not Blood Elf hunters in the farstriders?

And that is not the only example. Blood Elf players could reasonably ask why a potential Alliance High Elf customization isn't available to them because everyone knows they are the same race. We even see it now with some players asking for Void Elf facial hair styles.

- - - Updated - - -

What? Think of new races? The very concept of allied races is to add subraces, pretty much every allied race is a minor subfaction of corresponding pc race. High Elves fit like a glove to this philosophy - they are a minor subfaction of blood elves, basically those thalassian elves who never left the alliance.

Except that's not exactly true.

We know Ion Hazzikostas mentioned High Elves in 2014 when what was to become the Allied race system was simply a concept. He mentioned them alongside Brown Skinned Orcs. And yet when the system was revealed, Void Elves were the first Allied race announced, not High Elves.

If High Elves were such a perfect fit for the new system, why did they go to the bother of creating Void Elves? The answer is self-evident, and has been confirmed since. that they were not a perfect fit after all.

The Allied race system is as you said, to add subraces or variants of existing races. But the High Elves are not a variant or a sub-race. They are a political faction on the other side of the faction wall from their parent race who have no profound cultural or thematic difference from that parent race. As such, they would begin blurring the lines between the factions, something we know Blizzard wants to avoid.

Void Elves by contrast fit the Allied race philosophy like a glove. Physical variant of an existing race with profound thematic variation.

- - - Updated - - -

Isn't eye color exactly the difference of LF dreanei vs regular ones? They also have different haircuts and some tatoos, but high elves could have that too.

Lightforged Draenei have unique skin tones and horn shapes, but the key difference is the lore. They are lightforged, essentially undergoing a process similar to what happened to Void Elves i.e. blasted with energy from one of the primordial forces in the universe to produce physical alterations.

It is the lightforging that is the rationale behind them being playable, and not the unique haircuts and tattoos.

Just as the 'voidforging' is why Void Elves are playable.

[Darthaes]

All things considered, high elves are more different from blood elves attitude wise than LF from standard dreanei, who share very similar ideaologies (fight the demons and praise the Light).

And even if helves shared the same racials as belves, why would that even matter (also HM tauren dont share racials with standard tauren, even though they arent didferent at all).

Those are all silly arguments, the only real reason I can see why they wont add helves is that it would take away uniqueness from belves. Even the "blurring the faction lines" argument is silly, seeing as we have pandaren and velves and nightborne look exactly like belves/night elves if you put them in full armor that covers heads.

Highmountain tribe are Tauren that existed on their own, away from other Tauren, for over 10,000 years. They developed their own culture based on river and sky, as well as have their own aesthetic with the blessing of moose horns.

Are they incredibly visually distinct? No.

Do they have the basis to be considered their own subrace and faction? hell yes.

They tick all the boxes, whereas what do the 'pure' Alliance Highelves have? That they severed away from their brethen for barely a decade and they like humans? Well...ok. Yet they have the same culture, same link to the Sunwell, same aesthetics, same same same.

[melzas]

Highmountain tribe are Tauren that existed on their own, away from other Tauren, for over 10,000 years. They developed their own culture based on river and sky, as well as have their own aesthetic with the blessing of moose horns.

Are they incredibly visually distinct? No.

Do they have the basis to be considered their own subrace and faction? hell yes.

They tick all the boxes, whereas what do the 'pure' Alliance Highelves have? That they severed away from their brethen for barely a decade and they like humans? Well...ok. Yet they have the same culture, same link to the Sunwell, same aesthetics, same same same.

Yeah entire different culture of 10,000 years, yet in the end, they live in similar huts with totems everywhere, respect nature and are shamanistic, so pretty much, no different from standard tauren.

Meanwhile alliance High Elves are on the opposite polar ideology wise from Blood Elves. They are more humble, gentle, less aggressive, they don't hold grudges over things that happened in distant past, they don't follow the philosophy of "by any means necessary". They don't share same aesthetics, because Blood Elves prefer more flamboyant and agressive hair cuts and coloring on their clothing, they don't share the same link to the Sunwell, because they learned to cope without it.

High Elves would be more distinct from Blood Elves than HM Tauren from Tauren or LF dreanei from dreanei.

[Obelisk Kai]

Yeah entire different culture of 10,000 years, yet in the end, they live in similar huts with totems everywhere, respect nature and are shamanistic, so pretty much, no different from standard tauren.

Oh, and they have the blessing of Cenarius that has caused them to develop Moose style horns. HM Tauren are culturally and aesthetically similar to regular Tauren. And as they are on the same faction, that's fine. Same goes for Dark Iron Dwarves who are similar to ordinary Dwarves, Mag'har Orcs who are similar to ordinary Orcs, and LF Draenei who are on the same side as the Alliance.

But even if High Elves were going to be as an Allied race to the Horde, they still wouldn't qualify because they aren't similar to Blood Elves. They are pretty much exactly the same. What is the point of adding an Allied race that is just a duplicate of an existing race? Every allied race is in some way fundamentally different from the parent. High Elves do not meet that criteria.

Meanwhile alliance High Elves are on the opposite polar ideology wise from Blood Elves. They are more humble, gentle, less aggressive, they don't hold grudges over things that happened in distant past, they don't follow the philosophy of "by any means necessary".

I'm sorry but that is just stating supposition as fact.

How are they more humble? A cynic might say it is in knowing their place within the Human dominated Alliance.

How are they more gentle? When they captured Zul'Jin during the second war High Elves tortured him. And you really don't want to argue back 'oh but those ones later became Blood Elves' because you'll only prove my fundamental point.

How are they less aggressive? The High Elves evicted those same Trolls from their home millenia ago to build Silvermoon. And they didn't do it by asking. And they didn't keep those lands by playing nice with the Amani.

And how can you say they don't hold grudges? They went out of their way to butcher Blood Elf civilians during the purge of Dalaran. The High Elves Lor'themar met at Quel'Danil 'in the shadow of the sun' were very bitter about their exile. Holding grudges is natural. Elves aren't all forgiving merciful angels.

And their ideological differences which you claim to be 'polar opposites' boil down to being aligned with the Alliance or the Horde.

This statement is unsupported by any evidence. I believe you have constructed an image of Alliance High Elves completely at odds with how they actually are in the story.

They don't share same aesthetics, because Blood Elves prefer more flamboyant and agressive hair cuts and coloring on their clothing, they don't share the same link to the Sunwell, because they learned to cope without it.

Demonstrably incorrect. Every high elf hairstyle is available and in use as a Blood Elf hairstyle. Their clothing in many instances is just a blue version of what the Blood Elves wear, and when they aren't wearing that they are wearing Alliance style uniforms (perhaps that is the demonstration of humbleness you were looking for?).

And they were making pilgrimages to the Sunwell following it's restoration. It is a political distinction, not biological. When the Sunwell was restored it was restored for all thalassian elves (likely excluding the void elves now). Of course they are feeding on the Sunwell again. Why wouldn't they be?

High Elves would be more distinct from Blood Elves than HM Tauren from Tauren or LF dreanei from dreanei.

No, they wouldn't. HM Tauren, blessing of Cenarius which produced moose horns, ten thousand years of isolation. LF Draenei, twenty five thousand years of separation and each individual is blasted by light energy which changes them physically.

High Elves have ten years of separation and a disagreement.

[melzas]

Oh, and they have the blessing of Cenarius that has caused them to develop Moose style horns. HM Tauren are culturally and aesthetically similar to regular Tauren. And as they are on the same faction, that's fine. Same goes for Dark Iron Dwarves who are similar to ordinary Dwarves, Mag'har Orcs who are similar to ordinary Orcs, and LF Draenei who are on the same side as the Alliance.

But even if High Elves were going to be as an Allied race to the Horde, they still wouldn't qualify because they aren't similar to Blood Elves. They are pretty much exactly the same. What is the point of adding an Allied race that is just a duplicate of an existing race? Every allied race is in some way fundamentally different from the parent. High Elves do not meet that criteria.

So moose horns and tatoos or yellow eyes and tatoos are fundamentally different, but blue eyes and tatoos are not? Ok, nice logic on what constitutes "fundamentally different"

I'm sorry but that is just stating supposition as fact.

How are they more humble? A cynic might say it is in knowing their place within the Human dominated Alliance.

How are they more gentle? When they captured Zul'Jin during the second war High Elves tortured him. And you really don't want to argue back 'oh but those ones later became Blood Elves' because you'll only prove my fundamental point.

How are they less aggressive? The High Elves evicted those same Trolls from their home millenia ago to build Silvermoon. And they didn't do it by asking. And they didn't keep those lands by playing nice with the Amani.

And how can you say they don't hold grudges? They went out of their way to butcher Blood Elf civilians during the purge of Dalaran. The High Elves Lor'themar met at Quel'Danil 'in the shadow of the sun' were very bitter about their exile. Holding grudges is natural. Elves aren't all forgiving merciful angels.

And their ideological differences which you claim to be 'polar opposites' boil down to being aligned with the Alliance or the Horde.

This statement is unsupported by any evidence. I believe you have constructed an image of Alliance High Elves completely at odds with how they actually are in the story.

The whole background for blood elves in TBC was "we do whatever is necessary for our race to survive", that's why they joined Horde, sucked mana out of living creatures and decided to sate their magic additction at any cost. About Blood Elves from the Alliance and Horde Compedium (which is canon): Many painted runes or mysterious tattoos on their faces, arms and shoulders for warding off demons or celebrating significant kills or simply to look intimidating — something high elves would never do. As well, they adopted hairstyles that went against the norms of high elf society Yeah, totally my projection unsupported by evidence.

And more from the same book:
Blood elves feel betrayed by the Alliance and are enemies of both humanity and the night elves. The blood elves try to draw the remaining high elves into their fold — a concept the high elves view with horror and revulsion. Indeed, the existence of the blood elves demonstrates the depth of the corruption possible for this once mighty race, and the high elves see them as a dire warning. Many high elves seek to make amends for evils wrought by their demented kin

There is a lot more but I cba to look now. I remember reading some quests where Blood Elves stated that their hairstyles/colours and clothing changed to more flamboyant and agressive to go along with their new apporach to life, but I'm not gonna browse through all the quest texts to find that just to prove a point.



And obviously the arugment "they use same hairstyles in game as blood elves" is complete trash, Dark Iron dwarves and Mag'har used normal dwarves/orc hairstyles before they made them into allied races, so how is that supposed to prove anything?

[Obelisk Kai]

So moose horns and tatoos or yellow eyes and tatoos are fundamentally different, but blue eyes and tatoos are not? Ok, nice logic on what constitutes "fundamentally different"

Yes it is, because those moose horns are explained as being the product of an outside force.

And in regards to the Lightforged Draenei, it is not just their eye colour but their skin tones that is changed by the lightforging process, or do you forget T'paartos was a different skin tone before the procedure?

Both groups differentiated by an outside force producing a physical change.

As for Elven eyes, again, elven eye colour is mutable and reflective of environment. It can change and has changed several times.

The whole background for blood elves in TBC was "we do whatever is necessary for our race to survive", that's why they joined Horde, sucked mana out of living creatures and decided to sate their magic additction at any cost. About Blood Elves from the Alliance and Horde Compedium (which is canon):


Many painted runes or mysterious tattoos on their faces, arms and shoulders for warding off demons or celebrating significant kills or simply to look intimidating — something high elves would never do. As well, they adopted hairstyles that went against the norms of high elf society Yeah, totally my projection unsupported by evidence.

And more from the same book:
Blood elves feel betrayed by the Alliance and are enemies of both humanity and the night elves. The blood elves try to draw the remaining high elves into their fold — a concept the high elves view with horror and revulsion. Indeed, the existence of the blood elves demonstrates the depth of the corruption possible for this once mighty race, and the high elves see them as a dire warning. Many high elves seek to make amends for evils wrought by their demented kin

There is a lot more but I cba to look now. I remember reading some quests where Blood Elves stated that their hairstyles/colours and clothing changed to more flamboyant and agressive to go along with their new apporach to life, but I'm not gonna browse through all the quest texts to find that just to prove a point.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Alliance_%26_Horde_Compendium

Ask Creative Development -- Round II Answers | 2011-06-23 00:00 | Blizzard Entertainment Bashiok

Q: Are the Warcraft and World of Warcraft RPG books considered canon?

A: No. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon. Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated.

Simply stating something is canon and then not expecting anyone else to check is foolhardy for debate. Had this work been canon, one of Wowpedia's many contributors would have said so. I checked further and can find nothing. Everything you say quoting this book is therefore pointless and irrelevant unless you can find the me the source that explicitly states that this sourcebook is one hundred percent canon. .

You are right not to be bothered to look up more. You could literally write your own fanfiction here and it would be just as valid.

And obviously the arugment "they use same hairstyles in game as blood elves" is complete trash, Dark Iron dwarves and Mag'har used normal dwarves/orc hairstyles before they made them into allied races, so how is that supposed to prove anything?

Because you are stating that they use different hairstyles and I can check and they don't. When they change that, feel free to make that point as often as you like. Until then, don't pose hypotheticals as facts and expect it to be a clinching argument.

[BTHSE]

Yes it is, because those moose horns are explained as being the product of an outside force.

And another thing is, how could you possibly have tattoos as the only distinctive feature for High Elves without saying "We know Blood Elves are High Elves but as a Blood Elf player you are now locked out of ever getting the iconic Warcraft II Elf tattoo as an additional customization option in the future because the alliance needs something exclusive for their High Elves." and not sound shitty. You can't possibly justify having that in game and it not being available for Blood Elves. And I think it relates to your argument that having alliance High Elves delegetimizes Blood Elves as being High elves. You have to either lock Blood Elves out of customization that historically belongs to their culture or you have take the concept farther to further differentiate them, in which case you might as well just settle for void elves since that's where that line of thinking is going to lead you anyways.

[Obelisk Kai]

And another thing is, how could you possibly have tattoos as the only distinctive feature for High Elves without saying "We know Blood Elves are High Elves but as a Blood Elf player you are now locked out of ever getting the iconic Warcraft II Elf tattoo as an additional customization option in the future because the alliance needs something exclusive for their High Elves." and not sound shitty. You can't possibly justify having that in game and it not being available for Blood Elves. And I think it relates to your argument that having alliance High Elves delegetimizes Blood Elves as being High elves. You have to either lock Blood Elves out of customization that historically belongs to their culture or you have take the concept farther to further differentiate them, in which case you might as well just settle for void elves since that's where that line of thinking is going to lead you anyways.

Precisely. Any means of differentiating High Elves that involves hairstyle or tattoos should be available to Blood Elves and so is not differentiating.

Void Elves on the other hand ARE different as a result of their experience and now have a unique theme, aesthetic and storyline as well as their own story.

[Garretdejiko]

384 pages of discussion of something that got settled in a single Q&A.

The Alliance has already Helves on their ranks, sure, they are non-playable but it is what it is.
I'd be mad if they give San'layn to the Horde and keep Helves non-playable.