Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

And another thing is, how could you possibly have tattoos as the only distinctive feature for High Elves without saying "We know Blood Elves are High Elves but as a Blood Elf player you are now locked out of ever getting the iconic Warcraft II Elf tattoo as an additional customization option in the future because the alliance needs something exclusive for their High Elves." and not sound shitty. You can't possibly justify having that in game and it not being available for Blood Elves. And I think it relates to your argument that having alliance High Elves delegetimizes Blood Elves as being High elves. You have to either lock Blood Elves out of customization that historically belongs to their culture or you have take the concept farther to further differentiate them, in which case you might as well just settle for void elves since that's where that line of thinking is going to lead you anyways.

Precisely. Any means of differentiating High Elves that involves hairstyle or tattoos should be available to Blood Elves and so is not differentiating.

Void Elves on the other hand ARE different as a result of their experience and now have a unique theme, aesthetic and storyline as well as their own story.

[Garretdejiko]

384 pages of discussion of something that got settled in a single Q&A.

The Alliance has already Helves on their ranks, sure, they are non-playable but it is what it is.
I'd be mad if they give San'layn to the Horde and keep Helves non-playable.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I think you misread my point. I am not disregarding the political allegiance at all. I am instead saying that is in fact the fundamental difference and that that is not enough to justify their inclusion as an allied race. In terms of demographics, Elisande's comment implies they are giving rise to Half Elves which is unsurprising given their circumstances, their location in the Human city of Dalaran.

As I said, their politics already effect their context. To say politics is the only difference disregards the effects of said politics, which are literally making them exilies, living within a host culture, away from their resources and environment. As for Elisande's comment, it can very well both mean future High Elves, or that Dalarani High Elves already have human blood going on their gene pool.

I do not believe there is a cultural or thematic variance between High Elves and Blood Elves. Both use the same architecture, although the High Elves now colour it blue for political reasons. But both dress the same. Both call their top Mages Magisters. Both conduct pilgrimages to the Sunwell and hold it in reverence (although the question of High Elf access in recent years has not been addressed). The Silver Covenant itself, while a paramilitary unit loyal to the Kirin Tor and explicitly anti Horde, is set up to ape the Farstriders with Veressa taking the title of Ranger-General, which is used by the Farstrider leader. The High Elves feel like what they are, political exiles pining for the day they can go home and take power in a restoration. I can't recall a single cultural difference between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves that isn't actually a political difference brought on by their allegiance to the Alliance. And as for biological, I believe that is restricted to eye colour and as we have learned this year, elf eye colour is mutable due to magical ambience and cannot be regarded as being definitive of who they are.

The inability to grasp the possibility of High Elf culture evolving/diverging -specially Dalarani HE- after millennia of human cohabitation, plus 12 years of exile, is definitely a you problem. To even present the notion that HE somehow have managed to preserve their culture intact despite their context, is naive. Specially when we know Blood Elven culture itself isn't a refection of pre-third War thalassian culture. To presume there is no divergence whatsoever between these two groups who made very different choices, is either disingenuous or indeed naive. Both BE and HE cultures are diverging from their previous common ground and between each other. The whole point of BE is that they changed to survive, that IS a cultural shift. HE have gone through the same.

It's kinda pointless to dive into any major HE cultural differences as they are not a playable race, but to say the room isn't there is just very limited thinking. As for evidence of unique culture, we do have the Silver Covenant Spellbows, a position very likely born out of their Farstrider + Dalaran culture.

The problem with your argument is that dismisses the obviousness of a cultural shift because it hasn't been codified and explicitly stated, and in terms of assuming, the fact that BE have been explicitly stated as changing culturally already makes clear that they are different from HE, how should have changed on their own way.

I've bolded the relevant point. While Void Elves are former Blood Elves (and thus High Elves), it is the fact they no longer are that allows them to be playable. And why are they allowed to be playable? Because they got blasted by Void energy in a transformative process. The flooding of their body with void energy severed their connection with the Sunwell (it must have, there is no way a void based lifeform could be connected in any way to a light based energy source) and as such severed their connection with the core of what defines Blood/High Elf civilization (just as they were defined by it's absence following it's temporary destruction).

To define the core of a Blood/High elf as merely their connection to the Sunwell seems as arbitrary as saying that a Blood Elf that still relies on fel techniques is not a blood elf. And to nitpick that severing as the reason as why VE are playable sounds a lot more like a justification post-fact, and a head canon one at that.

So, to presume that this connection to the is the justification of this all -regardless that culturally VE are BE a lot more than HE are- what would hypothetically happen if the HE got severed from the Sunwell? By your definition, if that happened then they could be playable. Which is silly.

Night Elves are as they are biologically the same as the original Night Elves. The Nightborne preserved the culture of the Highborne and enhanced it, and the Nightwell changed them as a people. And Nightborne are playable as an allied race, whilst Night Elf Highborne (a group of exiles from mainstream Kaldorei society) aren't an allied race because Night Elf Highborne are identical to Night Elves of any other class. It was a political difference that led to them holing up in Dire Maul, and once that was resolved they became playable as Night Elf Mages.

I mean you could rewrite this same paragraph with BE and HE, the only difference is that the point about Highborne is moot since they are on the same faction that the rest of the alliance. If HE rejoined the Blood Elves, do you think they would get to be an allied race, or they would just show up as a blue eyes option? I'll leave the oh-so-huge physiological change between NE and NB on the air, because while there was a sustenance issue, that one has been resolved, and what we have left? Mildly diverging physical features.

I disagree that the Silver Covenant has much going on in relation to the Alliance. I acknowledge their presence, and we can draw the line from Warcraft 2 to the modern Alliance, but I fundamentally cannot accept the High Elves are a major Alliance race.

On almost every occasion the Silver Covenant has shown up, from WOTLK to Legion, it has been with the Kirin Tor. Even the High Elf force in Legion outside Suramar was accompanied by Kirin Tor Peacekeepers who outnumbered them. The only occasion where the Kirin Tor didn't accompany them was outside Zul Aman and that was just an 'in' for Alliance players in 4.2.

As for why we qualify everything they could be as taking away from BE lore, that is a point put forward because we believe it to be true. Take the tattoos options put forward as a way of differentiating Alliance High Elves from Horde Blood Elves. What is the source of these tattoos? Warcraft 2 High Elves. Who are the Blood Elves? The vast majority of the Warcraft 2 High Elves who switched sides. So the tattoos are a legacy for all thalassian elves. So why would only Alliance High Elves have them, and not Blood Elf hunters in the farstriders?

And that is not the only example. Blood Elf players could reasonably ask why a potential Alliance High Elf customization isn't available to them because everyone knows they are the same race. We even see it now with some players asking for Void Elf facial hair styles.

They are explicitly the alliance loyalist branch of the Kirin Tor, They explicitly showed up on Zul'aman to give the alliance a way in, they explicitly served as alliance enforcers of the Purge of Dalaran, they explicitly served as the military branch of the Alliance offensive on the isle of thunder. Legion has been the only point they have been anything close to neutral, but at the same degree than any other organization and race have been. So unless you are also doubting the Sentinels and the night elves as a whole for the same reasons, it's hardly a worthwhile point.

I mean, you cannot be more explicitly alliance than by eradicating horde from a newly re-christened alliance city, but you still call it into question. Is it because you think they just hate blood elves? After Theramoore, A HE and H BE are so interwoven on the narrative that presuming motivation is just splitting hairs.

As much as you are loathe to admit, Blood Elves have left a lot of their High Elven culture behind, purposely and admittedly so. They just didn't change their name, they changed their outlook on the world, it's not just an aesthetic change. This point is why I brought the NE and NB up, they both shared the same legacy, and it was their ideologies what ultimately changed them.

To say any past High Elven culture belongs to BE to perpetuity is as dismiss-able as saying that all the culture of the Kaldorei empire belongs to the Night Elves. Divergence happens.

Blood Elves don't mark their faces, they haven't done so in recent memory. Logic would dictate they have phased off that tradition, a tradition that SC HE, a very Farstrider patterned faction, could still follow.

But since you believe that Blood Elves are the TRUE High Elves, that would never make sense to you. You arbitrarily decide what is allowed for other races but not High Elves, because your impetus above all is to preserve Blood Elven integrity -what you perceive as such- above anything else.

And as someone that is admittedly an elf hoe, who enjoys all their elves because of their potential differences, who mains a blood elf because I love them and not because I want that toon to be a High Elf -because he is indeed, a Blood Elf and always will be- I can't understand this underlying reasoning to be the source of your posture.

You don't want High Elves because for you their existence damages Blood Elven integrity, what you define as such. And thus, there is just no way to ever present you with any arguments that make you change your mind, because while people that want High Elves see them as something different -and thus, why they just don't play a Blood Elf lol- for you anything, everything High Elves are or could be, takes something away from BE.
They will never be different enough for you, even when the reason people wants them on the first place is because of their differences.

And there's no way to reason against that gut reaction. I can't rationalize why you believe HE can only take away stuff from BE -your markings example is prime example. It is something they don't use, that only an alliance elf uses, yet still belongs "to the blood elves" for you- so here's the impasse.

So what would take High Elves to be different enough?

Would it be cutting them from the Sunwell?

Would it be at least 20 years?

Would it be that they take up shamanism?

Do tell me, what change they could possible experience so people can play with the elves that have been part of their faction for a long ass time -instead of 8 month old exiles- can do so without you thinking Blood Elves are being robbed of their identity?

[Rhlor]

Which is weird, because they are just draenei, who are enhanced with more light.. They cant just grow different horns as non-enhanced draenei. Or can they? I believe same artistic freedom could be used for high elves.

I believe new Lor'themar's model uses human skeleton. It wouldnt look too bad, if high elves got human skeleton.

Is he saying that lor'themar is a high elf? I agree with that!

[Lumineus]

Skeleton? It's literally Greymane in a dress. STEALIN MUH MODEL, HAFF ELVS 4 ALLIONZ

amidoinitrite?

[Andromedes]

Is he saying that lor'themar is a high elf? I agree with that!

No, i said that he is a human according to your perception of written word.

[united]

384 pages of discussion of something that got settled in a single Q&A.

The Alliance has already Helves on their ranks, sure, they are non-playable but it is what it is.
I'd be mad if they give San'layn to the Horde and keep Helves non-playable.

according to elysia in the “official mod warning” saying that the devs already settled this is apparently trolling so this thread isn’t gonna die anytime soon.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

according to elysia in the “official mod warning” saying that the devs already settled this is apparently trolling so this thread isn’t gonna die anytime soon.

Discouraging dissentment with Blizzard's choices by appealing to its inefable authority sure seems like trolling.

To pretend that every player should just be happy with all of blizzard's choices is incredibly naive, or do you think disagreement should only be allowed when you agree with the reason?

There is a problem about High Elves, even if you want to believe that is just HE fans being obnoxiously vocal -yet the same can be said about pretty much every gripe against blizzard- and Blizzard has to solve it in a way that actually addresses the underlying issues and that doesn't have to necessarily be playable High Elves as an Allied Race.

High Elf fans haven't been given a solution, and as long as there finally is one that actually addresses the issues and most people accept, HE threads will never stop. Of course there will always be someone not happy, but isn't there always?

Void Elves could have quelled the discussion a lot more if they were made out of HE, I sincerely believe the discussion would have been a simmer at this point if they had been. But they aren't, they are no compromise for HE, as the only thing elven about them is the model -the one thing that mattes the less about Alliance High Elves-

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No, i said that he is a human according to your perception of written word.

It's hard to theorize what model is he based on with just a T-pose, yet:

Human Porportions + Belf Animations = Recognizably Belven

Night Elven Proportions + Unique Animation = Recognizably Nightborne

So:

Belf Proportions + Unique or Human Animations = Recognizably High Elven

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Is he saying that lor'themar is a high elf? I agree with that!

You can't make up what other people are saying and then agree with that, like, dude.

[FlubberPuddy]

according to elysia in the “official mod warning” saying that the devs already settled this is apparently trolling so this thread isn’t gonna die anytime soon.

I mean I don't know how more clear it can be: "It doesn't matter if the devs hypothetically do say that it will never happen. People are still allowed to speculate and have fun with ideas. A lot of you seem to only post in here to destroy that and rile others up, and that needs to stop."

People who use that phrase typically are doing it to troll/stop this conversation, when there's no harm in letting people speculate about the goings on of a particularly popular race.

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Void Elves could have quelled the discussion a lot more if they were made out of HE, I sincerely believe the discussion would have been a simmer at this point if they had been. But they aren't, they are no compromise for HE, as the only thing elven about them is the model -the one thing that mattes the less about Alliance High Elves

This pretty much, I have enough IQ to realize Void Elves aren't the elves that have been long-time Alliance loyal. Had they been, or if they ever are to be, then I wouldn't be posting about still wanting High Elves after the fact, because it's clear to see that's the evolution they went towards. Shame that it seems the reverse of this isn't true for others.

Also the fact that Alliance High Elves continue to be displayed among the Alliance continues to show that Void Elves and High Elves are still distinct entities. I haven't really counted, but I wonder if there are more High Elf NPCs sprinkled around BFA than Void Elves. The only Void Elves I've seen in the BFA areas are Umbric and that one Flight Master in Nazmir.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

This pretty much, I have enough IQ to realize Void Elves aren't the elves that have been long-time Alliance loyal. Had they been, or if they ever are to be, then I wouldn't be posting about still wanting High Elves after the fact, because it's clear to see that's the evolution they went towards. Shame that it seems the reverse of this isn't true for others.

Also the fact that Alliance High Elves continue to be displayed among the Alliance continues to show that Void Elves and High Elves are still distinct entities. I haven't really counted, but I wonder if there are more High Elf NPCs sprinkled around BFA than Void Elves. The only Void Elves I've seen in the BFA areas are Umbric and that one Flight Master in Nazmir.

Like here's the thing: If High Elves had become the Void Elves, that had would have been the alliance High Elves would have taken, that's how their lore would have moved forward. There would still be people asking for "uncorrupted high elves", sure, yet we would be seeing people happy HE->VE even joining in with the same people that claim "you don't really care about the lore, only want white and blonde elves on the alliance"

I think I would have fallen on that side, perhaps -wishing to be at least- trying to be more empathetic. But the thing is, if High Elf lore had moved forward, being used, even if in a way I didn't particularly foresee, I would be okay with it. I would be "High Elf lore is moving forward this way, with X amount of HE now VE, it's highly unlikely HE have the numbers to self sustain. VE is the new chapter of HE lore on the alliance, and even if you don't like the direction, you have to accept that." Like I would get that not everyone's character would be okay with that decision, specially the "i want an elf paladin" crowd, but it would have been a solution that would have cause this whole dearth of HE discussions to be far lesser.

[Deleted]

Which is weird, because they are just draenei, who are enhanced with more light.. They cant just grow different horns as non-enhanced draenei. Or can they? I believe same artistic freedom could be used for high elves.

I believe new Lor'themar's model uses human skeleton. It wouldnt look too bad, if high elves got human skeleton.

What is this, a new allied race?

[Strippling]

How would it detract? Are LFD detracting from regular Draenei? Are Dark Iron detracting from Bronzebeards? Are the Nightborne detracting from the Night Elves?

Every Allied Race has a different story they explore which isn't stomping over the other existing races that are already playable. The fact that you pointed out the different branches of story that BE took vs VE and that HE took just shows they wouldn't impede each other's storylines.

This is like saying because Pandas got lore in Mists it detracted from Gnome story development, that's utterly dumb. Panda lore wouldn't take away from Gnome lore, it just halts Gnome lore, doesn't mean that Blizzard wasn't ever going to continue their story like we're seeing now in BFA.

Not only that, but you're taking Allied Races and trying to compare them to a Main Race. That's silly too, we already learn the majority of lore for an Allied Race once we recruit them, that is the entire point and requirement of why they become our Allies.

What's funny is the actual only exception to this is Void Elves which had nothing at all to do with anything Alliance until their recruitment, and even afterwards they've barely got much development in BFA. If anything, VE sure deserve to get more development because they're the Allied Race that actually has jack in the story/development department.

You think that Zandalari, or KulTiras, or Mag'har or Dark Iron are going to continue getting substantial story treatment on the level that Humans/Orcs/Dwarves/Blood Elves/Forsaken/Night Elves do? That's absurd level thinking.

Also aesthetics reasons are just as important as story. Both go hand in hand on why Allied Races are even a thing, this is the silliest stuff I've ever read.

It would take away from the uniqueness of the BE. BE are the focal piece of the thalassian elf story... the HE of the warcraft rts series became the BE of today. A very small group of HE decided to abandon their kin and remain with the alliance, but the main HE society moved on to become BE. So, it's with BE (and now VE too) that the main story focus should be. Yet you pro's seem to want to push this HE agenda and even go so far as to push them possibly reclaiming Silvermoon City (see official forums), yet Silvermoon City belongs to the BE and not to a small group of elfs who abandoned their friends and family. Further to this, the pro's seem to have this notion that the alliance HE embody what it means to be a HE.. I would disagree with this and actually say that a BE is the embodiment of high elfs as a whole. BE are the HE who decided to honor all that they had lost by renaming themselves. So when I say "detract", I'm talking about detracting from the BE who IMO are the rightful embodiment of high elfs (ie thalassian elfs). Alliance HE are really just rag tag bunch of elfs with no real identity or purpose other than to serve the alliance. Their culture is not high elven, BE culture is. So please don't detract from that.

And back to the aethestics, as much as you may think its important please realize that you are literally asking for a Horde model with blue eyes. So don't act offended when people strongly disagree with playable HE because they don't want a part of their faction identity given to the opposing (enemy) faction. Like what do you expect? I like shadowmeld, can I ask for it to be another racial for my BE cause BE were once NE? No.... shadowmeld is an alliance NE racial, and so it should remain.

Here ya go dude: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...s_so/?sort=top

Not half a year gone by we had actual people asking for Alterac Humans, and look at the top comments. Everyone's pretty much in agreement that it'd be fine/agree with it happening.

So you're equating one post from several months ago to the multiple spam threads for HE? Despite Blizz saying "NO" several times already. Ok got it, I understand the kind of person I'm debating with here. Thanks for clearing that up.

P.s that post has plenty of resistance too.
p.s.s people aren't spamming for playable humans on the Horde.

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So what would take High Elves to be different enough?

Would it be cutting them from the Sunwell?

Would it be at least 20 years?

Would it be that they take up shamanism?

Do tell me, what change they could possible experience so people can play with the elves that have been part of their faction for a long ass time -instead of 8 month old exiles- can do so without you thinking Blood Elves are being robbed of their identity?

So what would take High Elves to be different enough? As an anti-high elfer, I'd be happy with HALF elfs as different enough. Not High elf with half elf customization options, no, half elfs as the AR. Elisande even notes that the alliance HE have diluted themselves with humans. High elf identity and culture as a whole belongs to the Blood elfs plain and simply.

Would it be cutting them from the Sunwell? Yes. Why should a group of half elfs/alliance high elfs be allowed pilgrimage to the place they abandoned? They decided to remain with the humans, so keep their culture with the humans please.

Would it be at least 20 years? Don't know what you're asking here.

Would it be that they take up shamanism? Lol, no. This would be purely fan service and in no way would make sense lore wise.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

So what would take High Elves to be different enough? As an anti-high elfer, I'd be happy with HALF elfs as different enough. Not High elf with half elf customization options, no, half elfs as the AR. Elisande even notes that the alliance HE have diluted themselves with humans. High elf identity and culture as a whole belongs to the Blood elfs plain and simply.

Would it be cutting them from the Sunwell? Yes. Why should a group of half elfs/alliance high elfs be allowed pilgrimage to the place they abandoned? They decided to remain with the humans, so keep their culture with the humans please.

Would it be at least 20 years? Don't know what you're asking here.

Would it be that they take up shamanism? Lol, no. This would be purely fan service and in no way would make sense lore wise.

These questions are contextualized by Kai's argument, they aren't meant to be answered by anyone, but be my guest tbh.

I mean when the question is simply "what would take High Elves to be different enough" and you reply "be Half Elves" you are missing the point of the question. IMO, I like the half elf idea and if done right, it can continue the High Elf Alliance lore, but the question is explicitly about at what point High Elves become distinct enough.

As for the Sunwell and 20 years questions, those are directed to Kai for he categorizes as "Blood Elves" as any elf connected to the Sunwell, explaining VE. That's why I ask if severing that connection is enough then. Same goes for years; whats the minimum span of time necessary so there's enough cultural divergence.

As for the shamanism, it serves the same purpose; it's just an example of a cultural identity removed from any Thalassian background, hence if that would be enough for HE to be considered "different enough"

[Goldielocks]

Like here's the thing: If High Elves had become the Void Elves, that had would have been the alliance High Elves would have taken, that's how their lore would have moved forward. There would still be people asking for "uncorrupted high elves", sure, yet we would be seeing people happy HE->VE even joining in with the same people that claim "you don't really care about the lore, only want white and blonde elves on the alliance"

I think I would have fallen on that side, perhaps -wishing to be at least- trying to be more empathetic. But the thing is, if High Elf lore had moved forward, being used, even if in a way I didn't particularly foresee, I would be okay with it. I would be "High Elf lore is moving forward this way, with X amount of HE now VE, it's highly unlikely HE have the numbers to self sustain. VE is the new chapter of HE lore on the alliance, and even if you don't like the direction, you have to accept that." Like I would get that not everyone's character would be okay with that decision, specially the "i want an elf paladin" crowd, but it would have been a solution that would have cause this whole dearth of HE discussions to be far lesser.

I agree that using the HE for the VE instead of the BE makes a lot more sense, especially when you see the VE being so loyal to the Alliance after only being on the Alliance for five fucking seconds.

That being said, I'm convinced that the reason why the VE came from BE is because of what transpired with the NB and with Tyrande. It really seems like this is a balance of the scales scenario, with the Alliance fucking over the Nightborne and the Horde fucking over the Void Elves. It's really fucking lazy to just assume the playerbase would prefer this over shit that makes sense but here we are.

[Strippling]

These questions are contextualized by Kai's argument, they aren't meant to be answered by anyone, but be my guest tbh.

I mean when the question is simply "what would take High Elves to be different enough" and you reply "be Half Elves" you are missing the point of the question. IMO, I like the half elf idea and if done right, it can continue the High Elf Alliance lore, but the question is explicitly about at what point High Elves become distinct enough.

As for the Sunwell and 20 years questions, those are directed to Kai for he categorizes as "Blood Elves" as any elf connected to the Sunwell, explaining VE. That's why I ask if severing that connection is enough then. Same goes for years; whats the minimum span of time necessary so there's enough cultural divergence.

As for the shamanism, it serves the same purpose; it's just an example of a cultural identity removed from any Thalassian background, hence if that would be enough for HE to be considered "different enough"

Thanks for clearing it up.

To me the point at which high elves become distinct enough would be half elfs. Unfortunately there isn't really any other way to distinguish them enough from blood elfs without giving them the void elf treatment. Which I'm sure is not what high elf fans want.

As for the sunwell, severing them from the sunwell would be a start. But again, the sunwell is what made high elfs who they are... so severing them from the sunwell implies that a more human centric culture for them (ie half elfs) would make sense.

[Shefu]

It would take away from the uniqueness of the BE. BE are the focal piece of the thalassian elf story... the HE of the warcraft rts series became the BE of today. A very small group of HE decided to abandon their kin and remain with the alliance, but the main HE society moved on to become BE. So, it's with BE (and now VE too) that the main story focus should be. Yet you pro's seem to want to push this HE agenda and even go so far as to push them possibly reclaiming Silvermoon City (see official forums), yet Silvermoon City belongs to the BE and not to a small group of elfs who abandoned their friends and family. Further to this, the pro's seem to have this notion that the alliance HE embody what it means to be a HE.. I would disagree with this and actually say that a BE is the embodiment of high elfs as a whole. BE are the HE who decided to honor all that they had lost by renaming themselves. So when I say "detract", I'm talking about detracting from the BE who IMO are the rightful embodiment of high elfs (ie thalassian elfs). Alliance HE are really just rag tag bunch of elfs with no real identity or purpose other than to serve the alliance. Their culture is not high elven, BE culture is. So please don't detract from that.

This man understands. I mean, I don't understand what part of what you just said above people don't understand. Blood Elves are High Elves, period. The in game lore states that clearly. ION time and time again confirmed that. I understand High Elves didn't turn out how some of you might have liked. I also understand you're frustrated that High Elves are not part of the Alliance as they once were a long time ago. But Blizzard decided to advance the store how they saw fit. It is their game, their property and they will do with it what they want. You guys can make as many threads as you like, complain as much as you like.....but just because you're complaining it does mean that Blizz will or should actually do something to please a handful of people.

If it upsets you this much than maybe I dunno....try some meditation, or join the Horde

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I agree that using the HE for the VE instead of the BE makes a lot more sense, especially when you see the VE being so loyal to the Alliance after only being on the Alliance for five fucking seconds.

That being said, I'm convinced that the reason why the VE came from BE is because of what transpired with the NB and with Tyrande. It really seems like this is a balance of the scales scenario, with the Alliance fucking over the Nightborne and the Horde fucking over the Void Elves. It's really fucking lazy to just assume the playerbase would prefer this over shit that makes sense but here we are.

Like we can try to divine motivation all we want, yet the end result is the same. The lore behind VE is just one big missed opportunity when it comes to paying off already established story threads, not giving the audience something close to what they want, and even telling a new story with a good set up and execution.

Aesthetically, VE are a cool conceit, beyond that, they are riddled with issues.

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Thanks for clearing it up.

To me the point at which high elves become distinct enough would be half elfs. Unfortunately there isn't really any other way to distinguish them enough from blood elfs without giving them the void elf treatment. Which I'm sure is not what high elf fans want.

As for the sunwell, severing them from the sunwell would be a start. But again, the sunwell is what made high elfs who they are... so severing them from the sunwell implies that a more human centric culture for them (ie half elfs) would make sense.

Saying that the answer to "how would HE be distinct enough" is "half elves" is admitting that for you there's no way to make HE different enough, and that's... fair. If that's your opinion I get it. If at this point all ideas presented aren't enough for you, I don't think you are going to change your opinion.

As for your bolded statement, I disagree, on the basis that I, personally, would have been okay with it. And as would have been many. As I said before, if SC HE lore had been explored through VE, there would have been little argument beyond the aesthetic one for High Elves. To try to speak for the whole of the pro helf side is fraught for both you and me, so neither should you. What you think High Elf fans want is moot.

And regarding the Sunwell, almost nothing about the Silver Covenant actually relates to it. Not saying that it doesn't matter to them, but if they got cut off from it, It's hard to see it would be super relevant to their way of life. The SC has not really been defined by the Sunwell by any means tbh.

[FlubberPuddy]

It would take away from the uniqueness of the BE. BE are the focal piece of the thalassian elf story... the HE of the warcraft rts series became the BE of today. A very small group of HE decided to abandon their kin and remain with the alliance, but the main HE society moved on to become BE. So, it's with BE (and now VE too) that the main story focus should be. Yet you pro's seem to want to push this HE agenda and even go so far as to push them possibly reclaiming Silvermoon City (see official forums), yet Silvermoon City belongs to the BE and not to a small group of elfs who abandoned their friends and family. Further to this, the pro's seem to have this notion that the alliance HE embody what it means to be a HE.. I would disagree with this and actually say that a BE is the embodiment of high elfs as a whole. BE are the HE who decided to honor all that they had lost by renaming themselves. So when I say "detract", I'm talking about detracting from the BE who IMO are the rightful embodiment of high elfs (ie thalassian elfs). Alliance HE are really just rag tag bunch of elfs with no real identity or purpose other than to serve the alliance. Their culture is not high elven, BE culture is. So please don't detract from that.

And back to the aethestics, as much as you may think its important please realize that you are literally asking for a Horde model with blue eyes. So don't act offended when people strongly disagree with playable HE because they don't want a part of their faction identity given to the opposing (enemy) faction. Like what do you expect? I like shadowmeld, can I ask for it to be another racial for my BE cause BE were once NE? No.... shadowmeld is an alliance NE racial, and so it should remain.

You're really not getting it. The two groups of High Elves and Blood Elves were the same people, but are not anymore. That's their entire point of their scenario. It showcases how much more relevant Light worship is now to Blood Elves, how they value survival of their people above all else. Already 2 points that differ from the Alliance High Elves, who are still more Arcane focused and who value their comrades above even their nation.

[And let's take a moment with this "abandoning their kin" narrative which always comes off from the anti-side as if it's the most evil thing ever. We know from Chornicles and various books that there were a large sect of High Elves living in Dalaran and among the Humans in Alliance. Stop grouping up every single High Elf as if they are all one hive mind, the game shows us they are not. Just as in real life where people may not like or agree with how their nation is being run. Kael'thas even felt that he had more in connection with those in Dalaran than with Silvermoon. The reason he tried so hard to find success for his people is because he wanted to show them that he could be their leader and that led him down the dark path it did.

So again, stop trying to act as if every pre-Sunwell destruction High Elf all shared the same exact mindset, that's really dumb honestly. The High Elf/Blood Elf conflict exists because of differences in mindsets, that's what defines it.]

Anyways, I consider myself a pro-high elf person and even I don't agree with High Elves re-taking Silvermoon. Again, that represents their past, not their current situation and not their future so stop lumping every single person as the same, just as you point out below that there are still some dissenters to the Alterac Human idea.

I don't really care for or know about the whole "who is a true High Elf" but I've never seen those who say they want High Elves say they want to play "true High Elves". The only way I can think about it is because of everyone memeing the ignorant "High Elves are playable, on HORDE! LUL" which is extremely dumb to say. These people would obviously play the Blood Elves if they wanted to play Blood Elves, just as Thunder shows he has a Blood Elf main and appreciates that character as a Blood Elf.

But I've been starting to see a narrative pop up where some Horde Blood Elf players actually feel like their Blood Elves are High Elves, I'm talking actually thinking they didn't consort around Fel and have their eyes turn Green. Like as in if someone playing a Green Orc RPed that their Orc was Mag'har (when Mag'har literally means uncorrupt).

The "true High Elf" thing is stupid anyway. It's like trying to say who are the "true Highborne" the Kaldorei or the Nightborne? I'd argue neither since both cultures eventually evolved into their own thing. The Kaldorei today have Highborne history, but their mannerisms and such are not of the Highborne before. The Nightborne may have the Highborne society going on, but they've been changed by the Nightwell. (someone please catch this). So same as Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves, both Elves are in situations/culturally evolved that doesn't represent the old society both once shared.

Alliance High Elves have nothing, no kingdom, no city. They're a minority and intermingle with various races of the Alliance. Their main thing is the loyalty and friendship they hold with the Alliance. They don't rely on the Sunwell like Blood Elves do.

Blood Elves still have their kingdom, yet it's in ruins (partially). They're the majority of their people, but still a minority with the various races of the Horde. Their main thing now is survival and the focus on the Light/Sunwell.

And I'm not asking for Horde model with Blue Eyes, keep riding that fake narrative. This entire thread, the major contributors and organizers that came up with all the different models that Alliance High Elves could have were all in an effort to avoid "Blood Elves with Blue Eyes". All because it was made in an effort to actually appease those like you who keep spouting, "you just want Blood Elves with Blue Eyes". And then of course we get hit back with, "but now you're trying to have better Blood Elf models". So there is no appeasing you bunch of whiners. That's when most high elfers said fuck it, if they can't compromise then there's no point in trying to compromise.

I like the Half-elf idea, I would be okay with the Half-elf idea. Stop trying to talk as if every single person shares the exact same sentiment. You can never make 100% of people happy.

But the way Blizzard handled Void Elves is one of the worst ways they could have gone about it. Even Goldielocks who likes to make fun of high elf fans understands that it would've made much more sense for High Elves to become Void Elves instead of having this random group of Blood Elves out of nowhere be suddenly gung ho! for Alliance. Regardless of where you stand about the whole "High Elf vs Blood Elf" the Void Elf thing was handled very poorly and it shows. They are a surface level fanservice race that was created. And worst part of it is it takes up an Allied Race slot that could've gone toward say Half-elves, if not High Elves.

So you're equating one post from several months ago to the multiple spam threads for HE? Despite Blizz saying "NO" several times already. Ok got it, I understand the kind of person I'm debating with here. Thanks for clearing that up.

P.s that post has plenty of resistance too.
p.s.s people aren't spamming for playable humans on the Horde.

The post has shit for resistance, an overwhelming majority of people are in agreement and okay with it, that is the point of pointing it out. And I'm not gonna waste my time looking for every evidence where this may or may not have occurred before either (asking for Alterac Humans on Horde).

Your narrative was one of trying to say Horde doesn't ask for Alliance races when that is a shit narrative. Look through history and you'll see that Horde players asked for Worgen/Dark Irons before Allied Races were even a thing.

Besides, you're not going to find much of that anyway because there is no other unplayable race that is on the level of depiction that High Elves are for Alliance. This is why throughout the years there has been much much much much more topics/threads created about High Elves and the request for them to be playable on the Alliance.

Blizzard throws High Elves in Alliance players faces, as I've said in a previous post, you would have to go out of your way to not do any main Alliance story quests (if you're questing) to not notice the amount of representation High Elves take among the other playable Alliance races.

Always I see people come up with stupid one time examples of "oh there were ogres with horde in this ONE AREA" or "oh there is these group of humans for horde in this ONE AREA".

To those people, they need to show that these ogres or humans or w/e have been repping Horde in multiple expansion content. None of that evidence is ever brought up, so people who don't understand this need to understand that there is no equivalent unplayable race like High Elves to Alliance that Horde has, thus it makes a ton of sense that you do not see people making as many topics as there are about High Elves.

Also, I guarantee if Blizzard ever pulls a Void Ogres like they did with Void Elves, you can bet your behind that there would be tons of upset Ogre fans talking mess about purple goop Ogres that had no loyalty to the Horde and came out of freaking nowhere.

[Strippling]

You're really not getting it. The two groups of High Elves and Blood Elves were the same people, but are not anymore. That's their entire point of their scenario. It showcases how much more relevant Light worship is now to Blood Elves, how they value survival of their people above all else. Already 2 points that differ from the Alliance High Elves, who are still more Arcane focused and who value their comrades above even their nation.
.[/B]

[And let's take a moment with this "abandoning their kin" narrative which always comes off from the anti-side as if it's the most evil thing ever. We know from Chornicles and various books that there were a large sect of High Elves living in Dalaran and among the Humans in Alliance. Stop grouping up every single High Elf as if they are all one hive mind, the game shows us they are not. Just as in real life where people may not like or agree with how their nation is being run. Kael'thas even felt that he had more in connection with those in Dalaran than with Silvermoon. The reason he tried so hard to find success for his people is because he wanted to show them that he could be their leader and that led him down the dark path it did.

And I'm not asking for Horde model with Blue Eyes, keep riding that fake narrative. This entire thread, the major contributors and organizers that came up with all the different models that Alliance High Elves could have were all in an effort to avoid "Blood Elves with Blue Eyes". All because it was made in an effort to actually appease those like you who keep spouting, "you just want Blood Elves with Blue Eyes". And then of course we get hit back with, "but now you're trying to have better Blood Elf models". So there is no appeasing you bunch of whiners. That's when most high elfers said fuck it, if they can't compromise then there's no point in trying to compromise.

I like the Half-elf idea, I would be okay with the Half-elf idea. Stop trying to talk as if every single person shares the exact same sentiment. You can never make 100% of people happy.

The post has shit for resistance, an overwhelming majority of people are in agreement and okay with it, that is the point of pointing it out. And I'm not gonna waste my time looking for every evidence where this may or may not have occurred before either (asking for Alterac Humans on Horde).

Your narrative was one of trying to say Horde doesn't ask for Alliance races when that is a shit narrative. Look through history and you'll see that Horde players asked for Worgen/Dark Irons before Allied Races were even a thing.

Besides, you're not going to find much of that anyway because there is no other unplayable race that is on the level of depiction that High Elves are for Alliance. This is why throughout the years there has been much much much much more topics/threads created about High Elves and the request for them to be playable on the Alliance.

Blizzard throws High Elves in Alliance players faces, as I've said in a previous post, you would have to go out of your way to not do any main Alliance story quests (if you're questing) to not notice the amount of representation High Elves take among the other playable Alliance races.

Always I see people come up with stupid one time examples of "oh there were ogres with horde in this ONE AREA" or "oh there is these group of humans for horde in this ONE AREA".

To those people, they need to show that these ogres or humans or w/e have been repping Horde in multiple expansion content. None of that evidence is ever brought up, so people who don't understand this need to understand that there is no equivalent unplayable race like High Elves to Alliance that Horde has, thus it makes a ton of sense that you do not see people making as many topics as there are about High Elves.

Also, I guarantee if Blizzard ever pulls a Void Ogres like they did with Void Elves, you can bet your behind that there would be tons of upset Ogre fans talking mess about purple goop Ogres that had no loyalty to the Horde and came out of freaking nowhere.

Firstly, I don't know where to start because your reply is massive.

Secondly, the main reason high elfs have been a hot request by alliance is purely because they along with blood elfs are the prettiest race in the game. Plain and simple. Stats prove it too: Blood elf most popular race, void elf (looks like blood elf but blue) most popular AR by FAR, high elf most request AR by alliance. The entire request for high elfs is founded on their aesthetics. For this very reason the pro-high elf community has received a lot of resistance by others (and rightfully so). If lore had anything to do with it then you would be happy with NPC story progression. But because the entire request is founded on the aesthetics, then I'm sorry but you can suggest all the changes you can think of to make their model unique but at the end of the day the vast majority of pro-high elfs would be upset if their precious high elfs didn't look anything like their pretty counterpart the blood elfs. Plus, most of the visual changes you guys have suggested are just add tattoos and cool hair styles to blood elfs... like lol... some others have suggested using other models (but imo they look sh!t and I'm sure others would agree and be unhappy). So I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that the high elf request has noting to do with the aesthetics.

Thirdly, I never said Horde don't request Alliance races. I implied that they don't spam request Alliance races like Alliance do for Horde races

Fourthly, as much as it may irritate you to hear it... the reality is that blood elfs are high elfs. No ifs, no buts. I was born in New Zealand but moved to Australia when I was a teenager. I eventually became an Australian citizen. Does that now mean that I am no longer a New Zealand citizen? (the answer is yes I am still an NZ citizen and hold dual citizenship with both countries, in case you were wondering). Same concept applies to blood elfs, they are by very definition "high elfs". In fact, Blood elfs are the main high elven society. Any high elfs associated with the Alliance are just a small off-shoot of the Horde high elfs, whether a recent off-shoot or an older off-shoot due to living in Dalaran. So, even just requesting "high elfs" already impedes on Horde identity. As I've suggested before, a good start would be to focus on half elfs who still hold a lot of the alliance high elf culture (mixture of high elven culture and human culture) but who could also be visually distinctive enough so as to not take away from the Horde.

Fifthly, why not actually put time and effort into asking for an allied race who would actually be creative and distinctive enough to add some much needed flavor to the alliance? I'm sure plenty of alliance would be pissed if an AR slot was wasted on a blue eyed blood elf (ie fair skinned void elf). And no, adding high elf skin tones for void elfs doesn't solve the issue. It'd A) take away from the Horde visual and identity and B) detract from the void elf lore which is ENTIRELY about void and shadow (you know.. not light skinned). And don't say "Alleria", cause leaders are always treated differently to what we can actually play.

[FlubberPuddy]

Firstly, I don't know where to start because your reply is massive.

Secondly, the main reason high elfs have been a hot request by alliance is purely because they along with blood elfs are the prettiest race in the game. Plain and simple. Stats prove it too: Blood elf most popular race, void elf (looks like blood elf but blue) most popular AR by FAR, high elf most request AR by alliance. The entire request for high elfs is founded on their aesthetics. For this very reason the pro-high elf community has received a lot of resistance by others (and rightfully so). If lore had anything to do with it then you would be happy with NPC story progression. But because the entire request is founded on the aesthetics, then I'm sorry but you can suggest all the changes you can think of to make their model unique but at the end of the day the vast majority of pro-high elfs would be upset if their precious high elfs didn't look anything like their pretty counterpart the blood elfs. Plus, most of the visual changes you guys have suggested are just add tattoos and cool hair styles to blood elfs... like lol... some others have suggested using other models (but imo they look sh!t and I'm sure others would agree and be unhappy). So I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that the high elf request has noting to do with the aesthetics.

Thirdly, I never said Horde don't request Alliance races. I implied that they don't spam request Alliance races like Alliance do for Horde races

You cannot speak for anyone but yourself. Cut that crap about "this is the actual reason people want it". People want it for a variety of reasons, because news flash, everyone is an individual with individualized desires and needs.

It's not spamming to talk about a topic that interests so many people, that's both the side that wants High Elves and the people who want to shoot the idea down. Plus it got to the point where more Anti-high elf people were creating posts about "get over High Elves not happening" rather than pro-ppl making posts about them.

No other potential Allied Race has had this much discussion about it because not as many people give as much shit about most of the other ones. OR there isn't as much information to go off of for those other races being relevant to the 2 main factions (Alliance and Horde).

Again, people fail to provide multiple occasions where Ogres, Naga, Furbolgs, Jinyu, Hozen, etc are relevant as being Allies to Horde or Alliance. All the usual speak is, "hey this race appeared at this one expansion this one time, I'd like to see them as an Allied Race" Why should the High Elf be any different?

And before you start hollering again about "because it's a Horde race" No. As I've stated and others have shown many times already, High Elves are strewn about the Alliance, you have to TRY to avoid seeing them or their stories among the Alliance. It is way more representation across multiple expansions vs just a dedicated expansion. You can continue to whine over it or not acknowledge this, as you have done in this post. That's because there really is no other way around it. High Elves exist on Alliance and continue to be among the notable races of the Alliance.

Blood Elves being Horde has nothing to do with High Elves being on the Alliance, and the request doesn't either. To put it another way, whether Blood Elves existed on the Horde or not, wouldn't change the request for High Elves to be added to Alliance. Since we know that players have attested to requesting them before Blood Elves even existed in World of Warcraft, we know this to be true. Trying to chain it to the popularity of Blood Elves, is undermining the request that has long since been a thing from the beginning of the game (or even before that).

Fourthly, as much as it may irritate you to hear it... the reality is that blood elfs are high elfs. No ifs, no buts. I was born in New Zealand but moved to Australia when I was a teenager. I eventually became an Australian citizen. Does that now mean that I am no longer a New Zealand citizen? (the answer is yes I am still an NZ citizen and hold dual citizenship with both countries, in case you were wondering). Same concept applies to blood elfs, they are by very definition "high elfs". In fact, Blood elfs are the main high elven society. Any high elfs associated with the Alliance are just a small off-shoot of the Horde high elfs, whether a recent off-shoot or an older off-shoot due to living in Dalaran. So, even just requesting "high elfs" already impedes on Horde identity. As I've suggested before, a good start would be to focus on half elfs who still hold a lot of the alliance high elf culture (mixture of high elven culture and human culture) but who could also be visually distinctive enough so as to not take away from the Horde.

So are Americans who came from Britain still British? That is such a dumb statement to make, do you even understand what you're saying? Are the Night Elves still Highborne? So Night Elves still own Highborne identity? Then why did the Nightborne who have Highborne identity as well go to Horde? This impedes on Night Elven Highborne identity since they were all Highborne before? Let's take this further, Blood Elves used to be High Elves who used to be Night Elves. So why is Horde impeding on Night Elf culture twice? Most High Elves were born alongside the then Night Elves and moved to EK even though they originated from Kalimdor.

I hope you realize just how stupid that previous paragraph is sounding because that's essentially what your paragraph was about.

You keep talking as if every Allied Race is going to get continued development of their story just the same as a Main Race. Yet that is wrong, because by the nature of Allied Races, we learn their major story beats before we recruit them.

Let me spell out what that means for you: There isn't going to be much development storywise to an Allied Race once they are recruited. AKA Lightforged Draenei are not getting any additional storytime anytime soon, if ever. Same for Nightborne, Highmountain, Dark Iron, and Mag'har. Their culmination happened with their recruitment and now they will "story props" for the Main Races going forward.

Fifthly, why not actually put time and effort into asking for an allied race who would actually be creative and distinctive enough to add some much needed flavor to the alliance? I'm sure plenty of alliance would be pissed if an AR slot was wasted on a blue eyed blood elf (ie fair skinned void elf). And no, adding high elf skin tones for void elfs doesn't solve the issue. It'd A) take away from the Horde visual and identity and B) detract from the void elf lore which is ENTIRELY about void and shadow (you know.. not light skinned). And don't say "Alleria", cause leaders are always treated differently to what we can actually play.

So basically you want people to put in time and work and effort into creating something they don't want, just to make those like you who don't care for their desires to be content? Seriously man, process what you type and ask yourself if you were in that situation would you do that? Holy hell..

This is all for a video game. The fact that people took the time to come together and present something like this should be celebrated, not shot down. Other posters who are passionate enough for their AR are doing the same or similar things. I don't know if they're getting shot down or not. But too many people seem too focused on keeping things away from others, rather than just having more things added overall.

Blood Elves will never get the customization stuff that has been thought up here by High Elf fans. None of that Ranger stuff, it doesn't define their society. The fact that Lor'themar's new look emphasizes the "Majestic Blood Elves" reinforces this.



People in the other thread talking about how he looks more like a Mage than a Ranger. Surprised by it even, which is funny because it's exactly what I've been saying about the looks of the Blood Elves. They are not going to dirty up their pretty faces with tattoos/warpaints/feathers&twigs.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-Themar-model-!