Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

As I said, their politics already effect their context. To say politics is the only difference disregards the effects of said politics, which are literally making them exilies, living within a host culture, away from their resources and environment. As for Elisande's comment, it can very well both mean future High Elves, or that Dalarani High Elves already have human blood going on their gene pool.

The effect of their environment is merely that they do not live in Quel'thalas, they live in Dalaran. By this logic, Alterac Humans are a viable allied race on the grounds that they live in Alterac and are not loyal to the Alliance despite being physically, thematically and culturally pretty much identical to the Stormwind Humans you can play as.

As for Elisande's comment, it has no bearing on the genetic makeup of currently living High Elves. That is not how genetics works. It refers to the potential children of the group, and the only way to read it is that they are interbreeding with Humans and siring Half Elves.

The inability to grasp the possibility of High Elf culture evolving/diverging -specially Dalarani HE- after millennia of human cohabitation, plus 12 years of exile, is definitely a you problem.

Not really. There is a notion that is unsupported that the Dalaran High Elves all joined the Alliance. We know the civilian population of Dalaran was evacuated. But it is quite the leap
to assume that every High Elf who dwelled in Dalaran was a diehard Alliance supporter. A portion of the survivors did accompany Jaina to Kalimdor and settled in Theramore. And paid the price for that.
But given that Kael'thas was the leader of the High Elven community in Dalaran, it is far more likely most of them accompanied him home to Quel'thalas following the Scourge invasion AND the destruction of Dalaran. And we know this must be true because many of them returned, as Blood Elves, under Aethas Sunreaver to Dalaran and they were acknowledged as 'the elves who taught humanity magic' by Jaina Proudmoore herself.

If we were to parse it even more, the Silver Covenant is primarily a Hunter organization. They were even recruited into the Hunter order hall. Yet Dalaran is not a city of Hunters. It is a city of Mages. It seems unusual to equate the Silver Covenant, a Hunter organization with the community of High Elves who dwelled in Dalaran for millenia and whom Jaina Proudmoore recognised as the Sunreavers.

In truth, I guarantee that the Silver Covenant members had nothing to do with Dalaran prior to Rhonin becoming Archmage. They are former Farstiders for the most part. If you think they spent the past few millenia in Dalaran city, then you are conflating them with the group that became the Sunreavers. They simply gathered in Dalaran after Veressa's husband became Archmage and she was able to provide a place for them. And the few High Elf Mages who placed Dalaran about their own homes, why wouldn't they mingle with the Silver Covenant? Why wouldn't some of them join it, even if it far and away a Hunter organization. It's a group of like-minded members of their own people. Those few High Elf Magisters are not the basis for a cultural shift, no matter how long they have spent away from Dalaran. Any more than the Sunreavers themselves, who have spent millenia in Dalaran also, would constitute an allied race candidate of their own.

And those Silver Covenant members have been apart from mainstream Blood/High Elven society for twelve years. That's all.

To even present the notion that HE somehow have managed to preserve their culture intact despite their context, is naive. Specially when we know Blood Elven culture itself isn't a refection of pre-third War thalassian culture. To presume there is no divergence whatsoever between these two groups who made very different choices, is either disingenuous or indeed naive. Both BE and HE cultures are diverging from their previous common ground and between each other. The whole point of BE is that they changed to survive, that IS a cultural shift. HE have gone through the same.

It's kinda pointless to dive into any major HE cultural differences as they are not a playable race, but to say the room isn't there is just very limited thinking. As for evidence of unique culture, we do have the Silver Covenant Spellbows, a position very likely born out of their Farstrider + Dalaran culture.

The problem with your argument is that dismisses the obviousness of a cultural shift because it hasn't been codified and explicitly stated, and in terms of assuming, the fact that BE have been explicitly stated as changing culturally already makes clear that they are different from HE, how should have changed on their own way.

Yes, the Blood Elves have been forced to evolve their culture in response to the destruction of the Sunwell. For example, their previous desire for isolation appears to have been literally beaten out of them. But you make the mistake of assuming the High Elves are capable of responding in a similar way. So far we see two main strands within the few remaining High Elves.

The first is clinging to what came before. Veressa styles herself as a Ranger-General, the title given to the leader of the Farstriders. High Elves still have a connection to the Sunwell and some made pilgrimage. Their architecture is exactly the same as the Blood Elves, just coloured Alliance blue.
Yet when a High Elf does something different, what is it?
Living in Human cities. Wearing Human clothes. Adopting Human ranks. What was it Elisande said? Not the fact she acknowledged them, what she actually said.

'Quel'dorei? You are peasants playing at nobility, all too willing to mingle with lesser races that dilute your bloodline. You are unworthy of the name high elves.'

Assimilation is the destiny of the remaining High Elves. Their cultural distinctiveness will be worn down over time and rather than creating some kind of hybrid elf-human culture, it's going to be all Human. Even the majority of their children are likely to be Half Elven. They cannot hold onto their culture and assimilation is the path of least resistance for them. The Void Elves by contrast HAVE to be their own thing, distrusted, feared and likely doomed to go mad. The High Elves have the option of assimilation, the Void Elves don't. And for the record, given the High Elves we see around Telrogus, it appears to me that those High Elves who aren't keen on assimilation are going the Void Elf route anyway. Between assimilation and the Void Elves, there is no space for some kind of unique High Elf culture.

To define the core of a Blood/High elf as merely their connection to the Sunwell seems as arbitrary as saying that a Blood Elf that still relies on fel techniques is not a blood elf. And to nitpick that severing as the reason as why VE are playable sounds a lot more like a justification post-fact, and a head canon one at that.

While there is no confirmation that the Void Elves have been severed from the Sunwell, it is the logical explanation given that they are not rolling around in agony. Light and shadow do not mix, something would have had to give.
And how can the connection to the Sunwell not be the core of what a Blood/High Elf is? They literally cannot live without it and their entire culture is defined by it. It appears to me you are the one nitpicking, attempting to find any difference you can between the two politically estranged groups and denying any similarities if possible.

So, to presume that this connection to the is the justification of this all -regardless that culturally VE are BE a lot more than HE are- what would hypothetically happen if the HE got severed from the Sunwell? By your definition, if that happened then they could be playable. Which is silly.

I also mentioned that both groups were defined by it's absence. It is the connection, whether the Sunwell exists or not, where the addiction is sated or not, that is important on this point, not the Sunwell itself. As for what would happen if they were severed, the answer is they would die. It would take a few years, and they'd probably scrabble for any arcane artifacts they could to stave off the debilitating effects of their unstated addiction, but in the end they would die.

I mean you could rewrite this same paragraph with BE and HE, the only difference is that the point about Highborne is moot since they are on the same faction that the rest of the alliance. If HE rejoined the Blood Elves, do you think they would get to be an allied race, or they would just show up as a blue eyes option? I'll leave the oh-so-huge physiological change between NE and NB on the air, because while there was a sustenance issue, that one has been resolved, and what we have left? Mildly diverging physical features.

I made the point in another post that even if High Elves joined the Horde, they would not be an Allied race candidate as they are too similar to Blood Elves although it would be a possible in game explanation for Blood Elf blue eyes (not that I believe being an Alliance High Elf is a pre-requisite for that).
Trying to minimise the differences between the Nightborne and the Night Elves so that the High Elves and Blood Elves seem equally different in comparison is a fool's errand. There are physical differences with the Nightborne. There are skin tone differences. Hair colour differences. There is a lore difference involving ten thousand years of separation and cultural isolation. There is the cultural difference in that the Nightborne retain the original culture of the Night Elf Empire and the lore behind the Nightwell. Compared to the differences between Blood Elf and High Elf, the differences between Nightborne and Night Elf are as an Ocean to the stream.

But since you believe that Blood Elves are the TRUE High Elves,

Which makes it sound like an opinion.

I won't force you to watch the videos again, but twice in the past year the Game Director has confirmed Blood Elves are High Elves. And Chris Metzen, the creator of the Warcraft universe, has referred to Blood Elves as the High Elves.

It is not a matter of opinion if word of god supports your position. And before you pull out the whole 'Appeal to authority' fallacy, that only works in the real world. The word of god trope is called word of god because the individuals I am relying upon are literally God in regards to the world of Warcraft. What they say something is, is.

that would never make sense to you. You arbitrarily decide what is allowed for other races but not High Elves, because your impetus above all is to preserve Blood Elven integrity -what you perceive as such- above anything else.

I am not the one deciding though. Let's be frank, High Elves were one of the first Allied race candidates discussed. They had to have been. There is no way they weren't. You think Blizzard was unaware of the desire for High Elves, that it was something that only picked up steam in the past twelve months? They knew. They've always known.

How long do you think it took after someone broached the possibility of their inclusion before the no came in?

Was it instant?

Was there a talk before hand as the people involved discussed the pros and cons?

Did they go away and do up a big presentation with potential Allied races including High Elves?

Regardless of how long it took or how in depth the discussion was, eventually they came to the decision that no, High Elves were not going to be a thing.

And you can almost follow the decision making pattern yourself that ground inexorably towards the creation of Void Elves. We can't give them High Elves because they are too similar to Blood Elves...But they want High Elves...We can give them a variant, something like a High Elf but it's own thing. Then they brainstormed some ideas. Who knows what concepts they discarded before they decided upon Void Elves? We will probably never know.

So I am not arbitrarily deciding anything. My objections have been consistent with the game as is. My analysis of the situation merely agrees with Blizzard's. Blizzard's definition of Blood Elf integrity mostly agrees with my own as I would not have shared the thalassian model...nor would I have expected the Kaldorei model to be shared with the Horde. So that was the compromise.

And as someone that is admittedly an elf hoe, who enjoys all their elves because of their potential differences, who mains a blood elf because I love them and not because I want that toon to be a High Elf -because he is indeed, a Blood Elf and always will be- I can't understand this underlying reasoning to be the source of your posture.

Because you clearly believe High Elves to be a distinct group worthy of being an Allied race, when everything in game and out is contrary to that stance. Once you accept the truth that Blood Elves and High Elves are the same people divided by a political opinion, you realise that everything else is just noise. These huge responses? These long essays? Traycor's admittedly nice artwork? It's all meaningless before that one true fact.

Blood Elves are High Elves. High Elves are playable.

You don't want High Elves because for you their existence damages Blood Elven integrity, what you define as such. And thus, there is just no way to ever present you with any arguments that make you change your mind, because while people that want High Elves see them as something different -and thus, why they just don't play a Blood Elf lol- for you anything, everything High Elves are or could be, takes something away from BE.
They will never be different enough for you, even when the reason people wants them on the first place is because of their differences.

This is the key point. Whilst accusing me of being blinkered because my desires blind me to a truth you think is self-evident, you unwittingly reveal the hypocrisy.

People who want High Elves see them as something different. Of course they do. How could they not. If the problem with them being made playable is that they are the same as an already existing race, then you have to insist they are different, wildly so. You have to argue for every scrap of differentiation. You have to be vehemently opposed to any suggestion Blood Elves could have blue eyes, or that Alliance High Elves might be able to have golden ones.

Of course they will never be different enough for me. They cannot be. They are the same people. The same culture. The same theme.

And there's no way to reason against that gut reaction. I can't rationalize why you believe HE can only take away stuff from BE -your markings example is prime example. It is something they don't use, that only an alliance elf uses, yet still belongs "to the blood elves" for you- so here's the impasse.

Only one High Elf currently uses those markings...and she is sort of a Void Elf as well. If Warcraft 2 High Elves used them, then there is no reason Blood Elves (who are the Warcraft 2 High Elves) wouldn't either.

So what would take High Elves to be different enough?

Would it be cutting them from the Sunwell?

Would it be at least 20 years?

Would it be that they take up shamanism?

Do tell me, what change they could possible experience so people can play with the elves that have been part of their faction for a long ass time -instead of 8 month old exiles- can do so without you thinking Blood Elves are being robbed of their identity?

You know the answer to that.

Nothing.

High Elves cannot be differentiated from Blood Elves without them ceasing to be High Elves and defeating the point of the exercise. As proof I offer the Void Elves. A race of Elves differentiated not because they are absent for only eight months, but because they have undergone a physical transformation that has rendered them something else. That is the level of change that makes them palatable, a complete disconnect from everything they were before which does not infringe on Blood Elf integrity.

In other words, the solution that safeguards Blood Elf integrity has already been tried and rejected by the pro High Elf community.

Will Blizzard change their minds? Maybe. I very much doubt it though. Until that time High Elves will continue to be their own thing within the Alliance, a method of telling a story. I would enjoy the High Elves for what they are now, rather than spend forever hoping they will become what they probably never will be.

- - - Updated - - -

Is he saying that lor'themar is a high elf? I agree with that!

Lor'themar is getting a new model.

Blood Elf guards have been upgraded.

Alleria implied she would return to Quel'thalas.

Alleria's comment regarding Silvermoon in the embassy.

Veressa's comment regarding the Blood Elves in the three sister's comic.

The narrative logic of Quel'thalas being invaded again and Sylvanas being triggered by that.

Umbric's comment on breaking the Horde hold over Quel'thalas (nice bit of spin implying a cruel occupation rather than the fact Quel'thalas is a sovereign member of the Horde of it's own free will).

Greymane telling Anduin that they should strike the Horde again in the wake of the Siege of Zuldazar

The string which listed a potential Silvermoon Warfront.

The attraction of using a warfront as justification for updating Silvermoon and Quel'thalas. Blizzard has never been adamantly opposed to do so, it is just that the effort involved needed to be justified. A Warfront would do nicely.


I would rate the chances of Silvermoon warfront at this stage to be pretty high. Although whether that would take place in Silvermoon itself or another part of the Kingdom of Quel'thalas is debatable (I think the Ghostlands would be a better location myself).

As the circumstantial evidence mounts, and if it's happening it hopefully should be confirmed at Blizzcon, I think this stands a very good chance of finally resolving the High Elf storyline.

After all, why was a random group of Blood Elves chosen to be the basis for the Void Elves and not the High Elves? What if it was for this?

And I know that some pro High Elf commentators believe that a Silvermoon Warfront would lead to playable High Elves on the basis of 'it involves Silvermoon and Elves, High Elves playable!'.

Almost certainly not. Firstly, again, Void Elves exist and are a thing. If Silvermoon was planned as a warfront, it would have been planned from a long time ago and we have confirmation of this as the string listing future warfronts came from an ancient build of BFA (and I would say it was a work in progress, I believe the Azshara warfront is probably scrapped). If High Elves were to be made playable, why create Void Elves when they could hold off until the Silvermoon Warfront and announce them as a result of that storyline?

Secondly, High Elves have been ruled out as an option twice in the past year. Blizzard is not the sort of company to use 'psych!' as a marketing strategy. If High Elves were planned, the questions posted to Ion either wouldn't have been answered or they would have been obfuscated. Even if the pro High Elf community convinced Blizzard to add High Elves, it would not take place during this expansion cycle. And the Silvermoon warfront would take place in this expansion cycle

Thirdly, I believe the reason the void was the differentiating theme selected for Void Elves because the Blood Elves are increasingly light focused as the golden eyes demonstrates. This dichotomy will feed into the wider cosmological narrative the game will embrace in the coming years, the struggle between light and shadow. I believe this means the Sunwell won't be destroyed or corrupted, as it would abort this dichotomy and reset the Blood Elf storyline to TBC...and it would become a duplicate of the Void Elf storyline. It would be narrative nonsense.

More likely I think is the possibility that the remaining High Elves may be forced into a choice between going home and going void.

[FlubberPuddy]

Everything you just wrote is purely your opinion and highly subjective.

Yes blood elfs are high elfs. If you want to be silly and then claim "welp blood elfs were night elfs, so you stole our identity" well then in response I'd say "night elfs were trolls so you stole the Horde identity". And and you stole troll land too, so the burning of Teldrassil and claiming Ashenvale/Darkshore was just the Horde retaking what's theirs. Am I doing it right?

Why can't you just accept that Blizz decided to progress the mian high elven story line through the blood elfs (via the Horde)?

Also, regarding your analogy of the British who went to America... I think you have your analogy backwards. The British who remained in their homeland (aka the Blood Elfs, aka High Elfs) are British... those who went to America became Americans of British decent (aka Alliance High Elfs who left their homeland). In saying this I realise my analogy of Aus/NZ was kinda backwards too, but the principle is the same. The Blood Elfs are the OG high elfs, the alliance high elfs are an off-shoot of that.

At the end of the day, my understanding is that you basically want high elfs for lore and aesthetic reasons. I also understand that you don't seem to care about any possible implications this could have on Horde players or the game as a whole (ie blurring faction lines). I further understand that any reasons presented to you as to why high elfs shouldn't be added are 'purely wrong' in your eyes and that you and other pro high elfers are 'right'. To add to this, you don't seem to like that people don't agree with you, you retaliate because me and others share our views and opinions, and then you conclude by playing the victim cause all you want is "muh high elfs".... Dude, you may want them but you don't always get what you want. Me, many others and even Blizz themselves (you know the game creator?) feel that the cons of playable high elfs outweight the pros. You can have your opinions and desires, but remember others have theirs too and that is totally ok. End of the day its up to Blizz, and for the time being they agree with the "anti's"

Except that Dark Trolls were never part of the Horde because Alliance and Horde didn't exist back then when Dark Trolls evolved into Night Elves.

I used that example to show how stupid it was and you just went and made the example look even more ridiculous. The fact that your hype man also failed to realize Dark Trolls were an independent group and talks about a mic drop just shows the level of absurdity I'm dealing with here.

Again you go back to OG High Elf, when I've said I don't care about that. The Alliance High Elves no longer have a claim to being OG that's the whole point of being in the alliance, that was my point of examples saying they have no kingdom anymore and such. You keep commenting the same thing over and over when I explain in many ways the differences of what I'm talking about.

I can only assume at this point either you're ignoring what I write or you just can't grasp what is being written.

You don't even address the points I've made and then make a blanket statement, and say I'm retaliating and such.

What I can see is that you can't answer some of the questions I've posted about your methods of "using that creativity for something else" because it's obvious no one is going to go through the effort that's been laid out here for something they don't wholeheartedly want.

No victim playing, or anything. That's just honestly utterly stupid mindset and that you didn't answer it shows it wouldn't be something worth doing. I wonder if there are even good examples of what you suggested.

But yeah it really doesn't matter what you say or I say, Blizzard will do what they want. It doesn't mean either side of this topic has to stop expressing the desire, commenting about "put it towards something else" is just another way to say stop talking about this and talk about something else.

People do understand that they can't always get what they want, but again it wasn't a hard "no". And there's a part of the community that treats it as such. There's another part of the community that is treating it as a hard "no".

This is subjective, therefore it's why people are still talking about it.

[Darthaes]

Obelisk Kai, your posts are simply beautiful and incredibly insightful.

I definitely could not have said it so well.

Well done.

[Deleted]

I'll agree that the depiction High Elves are for the Alliance is quite unconquered.
IMO how blizz is handling things is actually quite reasonable, and I can't think of a particular situation where they might have let me down with what they decided to do. Odds are that they finally might do things that are tough to accept for me but this time hasn't come yet and unless in an exalted reality, I personally hope it'll never come:-)

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

The effect of their environment is merely that they do not live in Quel'thalas, they live in Dalaran. By this logic, Alterac Humans are a viable allied race on the grounds that they live in Alterac and are not loyal to the Alliance despite being physically, thematically and culturally pretty much identical to the Stormwind Humans you can play as.

As for Elisande's comment, it has no bearing on the genetic makeup of currently living High Elves. That is not how genetics works. It refers to the potential children of the group, and the only way to read it is that they are interbreeding with Humans and siring Half Elves.

I mean, I could go for some Horde Alteraci. Yet not the point, since HE are not living within the context of another elven civil center. We are talking about an entirely different host culture. Yet we know that not even that huge difference in context is never going to be enough for you. Like, how can you claim HE and BE have the "same culture" when their way of live is markedly different. Like you hold on to saying that's the same, and it's just not.

Or it could mean that she thinks there is some human blood on the Silver Covenant High Elves already. Speculative, but it's not like she is solely calling out Vereesa. "The only way to read it" is a pretty loaded assumption. If Half Elves -who date as far back as the first Guardian of Tirisfal- have appeared on Dalaran through history, maybe it's conceivable they are been absorbed within what today is the SC. Hardly a relevant point tbh, but there's no way to know how common place human/elven couplings are.

Not really. There is a notion that is unsupported that the Dalaran High Elves all joined the Alliance. We know the civilian population of Dalaran was evacuated. But it is quite the leap
to assume that every High Elf who dwelled in Dalaran was a diehard Alliance supporter. A portion of the survivors did accompany Jaina to Kalimdor and settled in Theramore. And paid the price for that.
But given that Kael'thas was the leader of the High Elven community in Dalaran, it is far more likely most of them accompanied him home to Quel'thalas following the Scourge invasion AND the destruction of Dalaran. And we know this must be true because many of them returned, as Blood Elves, under Aethas Sunreaver to Dalaran and they were acknowledged as 'the elves who taught humanity magic' by Jaina Proudmoore herself.

If we were to parse it even more, the Silver Covenant is primarily a Hunter organization. They were even recruited into the Hunter order hall. Yet Dalaran is not a city of Hunters. It is a city of Mages. It seems unusual to equate the Silver Covenant, a Hunter organization with the community of High Elves who dwelled in Dalaran for millenia and whom Jaina Proudmoore recognised as the Sunreavers.

In truth, I guarantee that the Silver Covenant members had nothing to do with Dalaran prior to Rhonin becoming Archmage. They are former Farstiders for the most part. If you think they spent the past few millenia in Dalaran city, then you are conflating them with the group that became the Sunreavers. They simply gathered in Dalaran after Veressa's husband became Archmage and she was able to provide a place for them. And the few High Elf Mages who placed Dalaran about their own homes, why wouldn't they mingle with the Silver Covenant? Why wouldn't some of them join it, even if it far and away a Hunter organization. It's a group of like-minded members of their own people. Those few High Elf Magisters are not the basis for a cultural shift, no matter how long they have spent away from Dalaran. Any more than the Sunreavers themselves, who have spent millenia in Dalaran also, would constitute an allied race candidate of their own.

And those Silver Covenant members have been apart from mainstream Blood/High Elven society for twelve years. That's all.

May I remind you of Occam's razor? All about your argumentation revolves around, somehow, making most Dalarani HE Sunreavers, and that's entirely out of your headcanon, to the point you are willing to say every SC mage is an outlier. All ovidence points otherwise.

-Kael'thas returned with a group of Followers to Silvermoon post fall. You assume "most" HE left with him. and that has no basis. Currently, even without the SC or the Sunreavers, Dalaran itself has a healthy number of HE populace. Most of them mages. The most obvious explanation is that those are just HE that didn't left with Kael. Yet somehow for you, it isn't.

-The Silver Covenant is not a primarily hunter organization. Across most of their appearances, the SC has deployed both hunters and mages. Like literally in legion, they deploy their Rangers on TSL, and their mages on Suramar.

-The Sunreavers are not the only OG Dalaran mages. Like this is just purposefully biased at this point. That Sunreavers have OG mages on their ranks doesn't mean they are all of them, it's the same baseless assumption that most HE left with Kael. It's not truth, it's just your assumption that the populace itself of Dalaran denies.

-Not every Dalarani HE is a die hard alliance fan. Come on, this one is literally obvious. The Kirin Tor, full of High Elves, is neutral.

-"Most of the SC are Farstriders" That's literally a headcanon. All evidence points to most SCHE being Dalarani High Elves because they are by all accounts, a grouping of Dalaran citizens against the inclusion of the horde. We actually don't know were those Farstriders would have come, you are assuming that even all those rangers are Farstriders. Like no joke; there's no evidence of ANY elves exiled by Lor'themar on the Silver Covenant. Vereesa never became a Blood Elf, she was with Rhonin.

Your whole argument is based on the flawed premise that most Dalarani HE left with Kael. We don't know how many did, but we know a lot of them remained behind (Literally all the remaining Kirin Tor High Elves smh) Like this whole leap in logic is hurting my brain.

The Silver Covenant is literally just a bunch of alliance loyal citizens of Dalaran. It's not hard to grasp. All this hoops and leaps in your logic only mean too much bias to function.

Yes, the Blood Elves have been forced to evolve their culture in response to the destruction of the Sunwell. For example, their previous desire for isolation appears to have been literally beaten out of them. But you make the mistake of assuming the High Elves are capable of responding in a similar way. So far we see two main strands within the few remaining High Elves.

The first is clinging to what came before. Veressa styles herself as a Ranger-General, the title given to the leader of the Farstriders. High Elves still have a connection to the Sunwell and some made pilgrimage. Their architecture is exactly the same as the Blood Elves, just coloured Alliance blue.
Yet when a High Elf does something different, what is it?
Living in Human cities. Wearing Human clothes. Adopting Human ranks. What was it Elisande said? Not the fact she acknowledged them, what she actually said.

'Quel'dorei? You are peasants playing at nobility, all too willing to mingle with lesser races that dilute your bloodline. You are unworthy of the name high elves.'

Assimilation is the destiny of the remaining High Elves. Their cultural distinctiveness will be worn down over time and rather than creating some kind of hybrid elf-human culture, it's going to be all Human. Even the majority of their children are likely to be Half Elven. They cannot hold onto their culture and assimilation is the path of least resistance for them. The Void Elves by contrast HAVE to be their own thing, distrusted, feared and likely doomed to go mad. The High Elves have the option of assimilation, the Void Elves don't. And for the record, given the High Elves we see around Telrogus, it appears to me that those High Elves who aren't keen on assimilation are going the Void Elf route anyway. Between assimilation and the Void Elves, there is no space for some kind of unique High Elf culture.

I mean the basis that a mix of human and elven culture will result into human... Like you are even voiding your own point about HE clinging to scraps of their HE past. Like that one building they made on Wintergarde keep, probably to spec because they needed an Arcane Sanctum.

Dalaran has an uniquely Human/Elven culture, this is evident by just stepping into the city. SC HE are citizens of Dalaran (At least now, even by your warped logic) That you can't fathom that cultural syncretism as the way forward, with the SC purposefully holding to some elven traditions, is a you problem. Like I can't even start explaining how people that have to move out of their homelands hold on to their traditions, and how with time some of it changes by living on a different place... Like this is not something I should have to explain dear lord.

While there is no confirmation that the Void Elves have been severed from the Sunwell, it is the logical explanation given that they are not rolling around in agony. Light and shadow do not mix, something would have had to give.
And how can the connection to the Sunwell not be the core of what a Blood/High Elf is? They literally cannot live without it and their entire culture is defined by it. It appears to me you are the one nitpicking, attempting to find any difference you can between the two politically estranged groups and denying any similarities if possible.

Elves literally did live without the sunwell... that's the whole point... they had to look for other sources of magic... But they literally lived...

I also mentioned that both groups were defined by it's absence. It is the connection, whether the Sunwell exists or not, where the addiction is sated or not, that is important on this point, not the Sunwell itself. As for what would happen if they were severed, the answer is they would die. It would take a few years, and they'd probably scrabble for any arcane artifacts they could to stave off the debilitating effects of their unstated addiction, but in the end they would die.

No, they wouldn't. The lore was pretty clear that only the weakest died... like WTF man.

I made the point in another post that even if High Elves joined the Horde, they would not be an Allied race candidate as they are too similar to Blood Elves although it would be a possible in game explanation for Blood Elf blue eyes (not that I believe being an Alliance High Elf is a pre-requisite for that).
Trying to minimise the differences between the Nightborne and the Night Elves so that the High Elves and Blood Elves seem equally different in comparison is a fool's errand. There are physical differences with the Nightborne. There are skin tone differences. Hair colour differences. There is a lore difference involving ten thousand years of separation and cultural isolation. There is the cultural difference in that the Nightborne retain the original culture of the Night Elf Empire and the lore behind the Nightwell. Compared to the differences between Blood Elf and High Elf, the differences between Nightborne and Night Elf are as an Ocean to the stream.

So it's the difference just time for the HE to be "different enough"?

Which makes it sound like an opinion.

I won't force you to watch the videos again, but twice in the past year the Game Director has confirmed Blood Elves are High Elves. And Chris Metzen, the creator of the Warcraft universe, has referred to Blood Elves as the High Elves.

It is not a matter of opinion if word of god supports your position. And before you pull out the whole 'Appeal to authority' fallacy, that only works in the real world. The word of god trope is called word of god because the individuals I am relying upon are literally God in regards to the world of Warcraft. What they say something is, is.

Mmm, yeah. That still doesn't change the fact that Alliance High Elves -who are using the name since no one else is- still exist, and continue to do so. See, that's the issue of the "true high elf" mentality. It's stupid. Blood Elves are the MAIN core of High Elves, but HE, as a SPLINTER, still exist. And they do on the alliance.

Like, that's the reality, that is what the lore says. BE and HE are the same race, the whole point of the argument is that their current sociocultural divergence is enough to make them playable.

I am not the one deciding though. Let's be frank, High Elves were one of the first Allied race candidates discussed. They had to have been. There is no way they weren't. You think Blizzard was unaware of the desire for High Elves, that it was something that only picked up steam in the past twelve months? They knew. They've always known.

How long do you think it took after someone broached the possibility of their inclusion before the no came in?

Was it instant?

Was there a talk before hand as the people involved discussed the pros and cons?

Did they go away and do up a big presentation with potential Allied races including High Elves?

Regardless of how long it took or how in depth the discussion was, eventually they came to the decision that no, High Elves were not going to be a thing.

And you can almost follow the decision making pattern yourself that ground inexorably towards the creation of Void Elves. We can't give them High Elves because they are too similar to Blood Elves...But they want High Elves...We can give them a variant, something like a High Elf but it's own thing. Then they brainstormed some ideas. Who knows what concepts they discarded before they decided upon Void Elves? We will probably never know.

So I am not arbitrarily deciding anything. My objections have been consistent with the game as is. My analysis of the situation merely agrees with Blizzard's. Blizzard's definition of Blood Elf integrity mostly agrees with my own as I would not have shared the thalassian model...nor would I have expected the Kaldorei model to be shared with the Horde. So that was the compromise.

The whole point about the HE discussion is that we disagree with the argumentation given. This is a disagreement with the developer's choice, which is not an empirical and irrefutable truth that has no room for discussion. We, as a community, are constantly criticizing the game's choices. So unless you are willing to admit you have never being against Blizzard's wishes and don't understand why people are sometimes, I don't get this point.

Because you clearly believe High Elves to be a distinct group worthy of being an Allied race, when everything in game and out is contrary to that stance. Once you accept the truth that Blood Elves and High Elves are the same people divided by a political opinion, you realise that everything else is just noise. These huge responses? These long essays? Traycor's admittedly nice artwork? It's all meaningless before that one true fact.

Blood Elves are High Elves. High Elves are playable.

This is the key point. Whilst accusing me of being blinkered because my desires blind me to a truth you think is self-evident, you unwittingly reveal the hypocrisy.

People who want High Elves see them as something different. Of course they do. How could they not. If the problem with them being made playable is that they are the same as an already existing race, then you have to insist they are different, wildly so. You have to argue for every scrap of differentiation. You have to be vehemently opposed to any suggestion Blood Elves could have blue eyes, or that Alliance High Elves might be able to have golden ones.

Of course they will never be different enough for me. They cannot be. They are the same people. The same culture. The same theme.

Hehehe. Like, if you can't understand at this point that the argument is that HE can be sufficiently different from BE, that e see a lot more of meaning on that political difference than some arbitrary biology deciding faction when the whole notion of political allignment is entirely... political... It's like literally you, after all these discussions don't get the point.

Blood Elves are High Elves. High Elves are not playable. Because the group calling themselves High Elves is on the alliance, the group calling themselves Blood Elves is on the horde.

Sigh. The whole point of the argument is that Faction Identity>Racial Definition. It is on that basis that we believe HE can be made sufficiently different to "mantain faction integrity" and "not take away from blood elves"

They can have their own culture (dalarani) their own theme (expats accepting assimilation to the point the culture they are trying to preserve becomes something new). Those are things that CAN happen, you just can't accept them if they would.

Only one High Elf currently uses those markings...and she is sort of a Void Elf as well. If Warcraft 2 High Elves used them, then there is no reason Blood Elves (who are the Warcraft 2 High Elves) wouldn't either.

Well, then it belongs to Void Elves. And you are right, Warcraft II High Elves should use them, so give the markings to those Allerian Stronghold rangers.

Look, Blood Elves don't use markings, they are up for grabs. Just like Kaldorei Empire lore was for Nightborne. So everything unused by Blood Elves currently could be used for Playable High Elves.

You know the answer to that.

Nothing.

High Elves cannot be differentiated from Blood Elves without them ceasing to be High Elves and defeating the point of the exercise. As proof I offer the Void Elves. A race of Elves differentiated not because they are absent for only eight months, but because they have undergone a physical transformation that has rendered them something else. That is the level of change that makes them palatable, a complete disconnect from everything they were before which does not infringe on Blood Elf integrity.

In other words, the solution that safeguards Blood Elf integrity has already been tried and rejected by the pro High Elf community.

Will Blizzard change their minds? Maybe. I very much doubt it though. Until that time High Elves will continue to be their own thing within the Alliance, a method of telling a story. I would enjoy the High Elves for what they are now, rather than spend forever hoping they will become what they probably never will be.

I mean, by your own logic, you admit THAT would have made HE different enough since it worked for VE. So... not nothing.

Now imagine if the VE were made out of High Elves. Everyone would be so much happier now.

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Like, here's the thing:

If you think that Faction Identity and Group Ideology will always mean less than Racial Definition/biological grouping, High Elves will never make sense for you, cause everything they could be is taking something away from "your" race, Blood Elves.

So unless HE somehow change their race (Like VE could have done) or it leads to Half Elves, it will never work for you. Every argument you make is in lieu of that, and no matter how "good" argument that attempts to tell you that High Elves can be made unique enough (culturally, aesthetically, gameplaywise) won't work because as long as they are High Elves, they are taking something away from Blood Elves.

How justified any of you are on feeling so proprietary of the Blood Elf past is not for me to decide or call bull on it. All I will say is that in all fairness it already happened to NE with the NB, and to a far more weird extent with VE in a way that could have been made about HE. But as proprietor you feel of anything Blood Elf related, the alliance High Elves remain outside that, and thusly, be either by nostalgia or just alliance favoritism, people will gravitate to that and there's nothing you can do about that.

Whether High Elves happen is beyond the point. As long as they are a presence on the alliance, as long as they are still are a thing that is, people are going to want them. So as long any solution is given to that thread, this is not going to end.

As for the solution, one that doesn't include Playable High Elves? It could be many things; transform all HE into VE, obliterate them, Phase them into Half Elves, Transfrom them Back into Night Elves? Dragon Elves? Whatever; but I think that as a whole we have to accept that the way Blizzard has handled High Elves hasn't been the best, and we should all want for this issue to actually resolve somehow.

Like even if you hate Pro HE people, you would at least want them to shut up.

[Naked Snake]

I would love High Elves on the Alliance that look like Alleria. It would make all the sense in the world for them to be on the Alliance side, because there are High Elf characters already on the Alliance side, including Alleria and Arator (don't know if she is still considered High Elf or Void Elf, but she looks 100% High Elf). But I think Horde players would be upset if Alliance gets a better Blood Elf model.

[Deleted]

Obelisk Kai, your posts are simply beautiful and incredibly insightful.

I definitely could not have said it so well.

Well done.

Ok, that was funny

[FlubberPuddy]

How justified any of you are on feeling so proprietary of the Blood Elf past is not for me to decide or call bull on it. All I will say is that in all fairness it already happened to NE with the NB, and to a far more weird extent with VE in a way that could have been made about HE. But as proprietor you feel of anything Blood Elf related, the alliance High Elves remain outside that, and thusly, be either by nostalgia or just alliance favoritism, people will gravitate to that and there's nothing you can do about that.

Whether High Elves happen is beyond the point. As long as they are a presence on the alliance, as long as they are still are a thing that is, people are going to want them. So as long any solution is given to that thread, this is not going to end.

This is the cusp of all of it. Great example bringing up the Nightborne and how they give to Horde players the old Highborne race that were the ancestors of the Night Elves on the Alliance.

People can make the claim that any themes/looks unused by Blood Elves from when they were High Elves should be all for them, but the truth of the matter is the same could have been said for Night Elves and the Nightborne/Highborne.

That didn't stop Blizzard from taking something that was specific to the past of an Alliance race and putting it on the Horde. Therefore it really is fair game for Alliance players to ask for features unused by Blood Elves towards the High Elves present on Alliance.

Especially since, High Elves continue to maintain their presence among the Alliance. Unlike races such as Ogres (another long time request) on the Horde side. And how the game keeps showing us that Blood Elves have moved forward. Very funny that the BE players actually want to remain in this race's past when it has all been about moving forward.

[Strippling]

You just went savage mode there. But so true though. All Night Elf land belongs to the Trolls, Zandalar is now Horde. OG Trolls are Horde. The Master race is Horde.

Mic Drop #bye

It's true but he'll likely deflect it with some BS three page reply stating how right he is and how wrong we are. He'll then probably follow up with another essay on why we're all rude and wrong for stating why we would not like playable high elfs.

EDIT: just read his response... he proved me right lol

- - - Updated - - -

This is the cusp of all of it. Great example bringing up the Nightborne and how they give to Horde players the old Highborne race that were the ancestors of the Night Elves on the Alliance.

People can make the claim that any themes/looks unused by Blood Elves from when they were High Elves should be all for them, but the truth of the matter is the same could have been said for Night Elves and the Nightborne/Highborne.

That didn't stop Blizzard from taking something that was specific to the past of an Alliance race and putting it on the Horde. Therefore it really is fair game for Alliance players to ask for features unused by Blood Elves towards the High Elves present on Alliance.

Especially since, High Elves continue to maintain their presence among the Alliance. Unlike races such as Ogres (another long time request) on the Horde side. And how the game keeps showing us that Blood Elves have moved forward. Very funny that the BE players actually want to remain in this race's past when it has all been about moving forward.

You're not convincing anyone here....and also, nice cherry picking.

Nightborne and void elfs were an exchange. You're argument may have been somewhat valid if Alliance hadn't received the thalassian model (ie void elfs). But you did, so your argument is void (pun intended :P)

Also, highborne were exiled by the night elfs millennia ago and were only recently invited back into NE society. Also, taken from wowpedia:

The nightborne (also spelled the Nightborne) or shal'dorei in the native tongue are a powerful and mystical race of elves who live in Suramar. Since the city was first separated from the rest of the world over 10,000 years ago, they are no longer true night elves and have evolved by the Nightwell into a unique elven species

Kind of like how void elfs have evolved into a unique species yea? So like I said before, nightborne and void elfs were an equal exchange. High elfs on the other hand are NOT a unique species. Despite differing political views and allegiances, they are in every sense the EXACT same species as Blood Elfs (oh except blue eyes, lul so unique).

High elfs continue to maintain their minor presence among the Alliance because they are a minor sub-group within the alliance. They are not unique enough to warrant being playable. Thanks we could clear that up, can we move on now?

[FlubberPuddy]

It's true but he'll likely deflect it with some BS three page reply stating how right he is and how wrong we are. He'll then probably follow up with another essay on why we're all rude and wrong for stating why we would not like playable high elfs.

EDIT: just read his response... he proved me right lol

All that's been proven is you really have no examples to counter mine thus you deflect with a retort that accomplishes nothing.

You're not convincing anyone here....and also, nice cherry picking.

Nightborne and void elfs were an exchange. You're argument may have been somewhat valid if Alliance hadn't received the thalassian model (ie void elfs). But you did, so your argument is void (pun intended :P)

Also, highborne were exiled by the night elfs millennia ago and were only recently invited back into NE society. Also, taken from wowpedia:

The nightborne (also spelled the Nightborne) or shal'dorei in the native tongue are a powerful and mystical race of elves who live in Suramar. Since the city was first separated from the rest of the world over 10,000 years ago, they are no longer true night elves and have evolved by the Nightwell into a unique elven species

Kind of like how void elfs have evolved into a unique species yea? So like I said before, nightborne and void elfs were an equal exchange. High elfs on the other hand are NOT a unique species. Despite differing political views and allegiances, they are in every sense the EXACT same species as Blood Elfs (oh except blue eyes, lul so unique).

High elfs continue to maintain their minor presence among the Alliance because they are a minor sub-group within the alliance. They are not unique enough to warrant being playable. Thanks we could clear that up, can we move on now?

I don't have to convince anyone of anything. The fact there are multiple people who come in and say High Elves make sense to be playable on Alliance is as much a push as those who say they don't.

You can tout yourself as 100% right and believe High Elves will never be, that's fine. It's one thing to do that, it's another to incessantly repeat it over and over adding nothing new. Okay, you're not convinced, that's fine. It doesn't matter. Your opinion is already noted, you think Blizzard is going to read 10 of your posts about how "High Elves take away from Blood Elves" and count that as 10 unique people saying it? Get over yourself. I would question why someone would have to voice their exact same opinion over and over again if they truly believed it to be true.

At least the pro-elf side can bring new evidence to the discussion. Not regurgitate the same old meme phrases as most people against High Elves in Alliance seem to do.

You still are deflecting the fact that the Highborne themes/society that Night Elves once had and no longer use got put on Horde. That didn't happen with Void Elves at all.

You also don't argue that Blood Elves will eventually get those thematics that people are utilizing for High Elves (tattoos/warpaint/feathers in hair/ranger themes, etc).

Both these things you don't bother to argue against. I would really like to see someone try to.

[Shefu]

It's true but he'll likely deflect it with some BS three page reply stating how right he is and how wrong we are. He'll then probably follow up with another essay on why we're all rude and wrong for stating why we would not like playable high elfs.

EDIT: just read his response... he proved me right lol

I just scrolled over his reply, I don't have time to read a all that rambling. The lore is firm on the matter. People can wish for whatever they wanna wish for but until Blizzard the facts don't change. He replied saying that you have no retort to his examples lol. Bro....like FACTS are FACTS. Blood Elves are High Elves period. Which part of that is so complicated!? Jesus Christ....

I appreciate your patience man but honestly it's not worth it! Cheers!

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You can tout yourself as 100% right and believe High Elves will never be, that's fine. It's one thing to do that, it's another to incessantly repeat it over and over adding nothing new. Okay, you're not convinced, that's fine. It doesn't matter. Your opinion is already noted, you think Blizzard is going to read 10 of your posts about how "High Elves take away from Blood Elves" and count that as 10 unique people saying it? Get over yourself. I would question why someone would have to voice their exact same opinion over and over again if they truly believed it to be true.
.

But you think Blizz is going to read thousands of pages of the same thread about how High Elves are not Blood Elves add them now!!! wah wah!!!?? Maybe you guys should get over yourselves as well. You guys have been voicing the same opinion again and again as well.

[Kaleion]

I just scrolled over his reply, I don't have time to read a all that rambling. The lore is firm on the matter. People can wish for whatever they wanna wish for but until Blizzard the facts don't change. He replied saying that you have no retort to his examples lol. Bro....like FACTS are FACTS. Blood Elves are High Elves period. Which part of that is so complicated!? Jesus Christ....

I appreciate your patience man but honestly it's not worth it! Cheers!

- - - Updated - - -



But you think Blizz is going to read thousands of pages of the same thread about how High Elves are not Blood Elves add them now!!! wah wah!!!?? Maybe you guys should get over yourselves as well. You guys have been voicing the same opinion again and again as well.

Holy crap over a 100 pages wanting high elf’s for the alliance. So should the horde bitch and complain saying we want night elf part of the trolls again, since they came from trolls. High elf’s blood elf’s they are all the same the only difference was artha murder the shit out of them and make out of respect called his group blood elf’s.

[Strippling]

You can tout yourself as 100% right and believe High Elves will never be, that's fine. It's one thing to do that, it's another to incessantly repeat it over and over adding nothing new. Okay, you're not convinced, that's fine. It doesn't matter. Your opinion is already noted, you think Blizzard is going to read 10 of your posts about how "High Elves take away from Blood Elves" and count that as 10 unique people saying it? Get over yourself. I would question why someone would have to voice their exact same opinion over and over again if they truly believed it to be true.

At least the pro-elf side can bring new evidence to the discussion. Not regurgitate the same old meme phrases as most people against High Elves in Alliance seem to do.

I don't know what to say dude... you literally just summed up what the pro's do 99% of the time.

In response to the italic, the only new things I've seen recently from the pro-elf side are ideas surrounding the high elfs reclaiming Silvermoon City. Like lol... you want our race and then our city too.. and in the same breath go "why should playable high elfs bother you? It won't affect you (but we'll take your city thanks hur dur). Other than that, 99% of the posts are "why can't we have high elfs wah wah" or "anti's are trolls because they are sharing their opinion on the matter" or "blood elfs are not high elfs REEEEEE". So I'm sorry but no new evidence has been brought to the discussion by the pro-high elf side, only regurgitated opinions and the same old "how dare you voice your opinion that you don't want playable high elfs".

[Lumineus]

As if you hypocrites weren't up there fawning over Obelisk's diarrhea of the word processor. You know, the one where he saws off his own argument's leg in the first paragraph with his Alterac Humans crap. Because if any of them survived being Rains of Castamere'd it would be a retcon to FAR outstrip any of the so-called headcanon about High Elf culture. So of course that's exactly what Blizzhorde would do, since they have no problem raising dead Night Elf civilizations from the bottom of the sea and inventing alternate realities full of brown orcs to spoil their favorite child with.

[Teerack]

Remember that time blizzard chose to not do blood high elves and made up some stupid smurf elfs no one was interested in called void elves, and in a very PR way the game director who is very famously a meme for getting the lore wrong said that the high elves were just blood elves. Its like a giant satire on Trump supporters the way it brought out a huge group of people who don't seem to be able to read or comprehend, and still to this day will argue the same disproven points in a circle to try and make fake reasons to justify no high elves ever?

Crazy

[Goldielocks]

Wow this diarrhea fest is still going on?

It won’t ever end. People keep arguing the lore implications like the lore is what actually matters in bringing a playable race to the game.

It doesn’t.

[Teerack]

It won’t ever end. People keep arguing the lore implications like the lore is what actually matters in bringing a playable race to the game.

It doesn’t.

Yeah the only thing that should matter is demand. Like if the issue was so passionate people have been arguing over it for an entire year.

[Deleted]

Wow this diarrhea fest is still going on?

Stop eating bad food?

[Shefu]

Holy crap over a 100 pages wanting high elf’s for the alliance. So should the horde bitch and complain saying we want night elf part of the trolls again, since they came from trolls. High elf’s blood elf’s they are all the same the only difference was artha murder the shit out of them and make out of respect called his group blood elf’s.

I think you missunderstood what I meant. I am not part of the "I want High Efls" movement at all. I'm also not against me, I just think people are blowing it out of proportion with their demands while twisting facts and lore. Cheers!

[Kaleion]

Sorry wasn’t attacking u, meant to post my reply to the mega post about blood elf’s and high elf’s