Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Andromedes]

The newest cinematic with Sylvanas shows the High Elf mother as having black hair. There’s also numerous google images in-game —both newer and older— which shows High Elves with blonde, pale blonde and black hair.

Yeah, but it also shows that not a single high elf has glowing eyes. So what now?

[baskev]

The newest cinematic with Sylvanas shows the High Elf mother as having black hair. There’s also numerous google images in-game —both newer and older— which shows High Elves with blonde, pale blonde and black hair.

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Oh, and of the 9 BE skin color option, only 2 seem to be dark tone. Rest appear to be pale.

Yes, and sometimes x people have x hair. 1 person being x does not mean all persons are x. Look at sylvanas boyfriend...the rest of the forsaken also do not look like him.

But GENERALY they are shown like this:



And you can google all you want. If its not ingame its not cannon...i can google a image of wrathion and anduin being lovers....does not make it true.

This video above...shows ingame in 7.3.5 patch how dev's thought high elves and blood elves look different.

and if you look at the 9 BE skin tones the 7 you think are pale...are still very tanned if you put them next to high elf models.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I can point to feedback, and have done so, showing that the aesthetic was a huge topic of discussion prior to the Void Elves being released. Given that the discussion around the aesthetic was so prevalent, you cannot deny it has fed a healthy skepticism towards claims that people who want High Elves seek them for their looks rather than their lore. Because while you clearly feel very attached to the lore, a lot of the pro High Elf commentary is driven by the desire for the looks.

That is unfortunate for those driven by the lore to be tarred by that brush, but I would argue the general perception of those aware of this debate but not familiar with it's naunces is that the desire is driven by aesthetics and not lore. And that is not a wholly unreasonable stance, a lot of players ARE driven by the aesthetics of a traditional looking Elf

I think I was careful to differentiate the two groups in my previous reply, but it is beyond my control to influence the zeitgeist. As I stated, while you and many of those in your community are genuinely driven by the lore, the perception outside the community is that it is a desire for a white skinned elf. And this really is an unsurprising viewpoint considering many of those who were actively seeking High Elves contributed to this by demanding normal skins for Void Elves..

Yet not matter how many of us keep making the point that is about the lore, people will keep arriving to the conversation with the "it's only about the looks" because that is ALSO the narrative that the anti side tries to play up to devalue other opinions. As much as there are people that only care about the aesthetic, there's also a bunch of anti HE that take that argument and propagate it as our most "vocal opinion" because it's the weaker one.

Which is why I say it's unfair to just listen to the most noisy argument. Feedback as given to blizzard about the lore, countless times, and they don't get a free pas because other argument was louder.

Cause again, no matter how many valid and deep arguments we make about lore, it will always be easier to just attack the weaker argument and focus on it as the whole rather than just an aspect. And to solely put the blame of it on the pro HE that just wants the looks rather than also on the anti side that propagates the argument itself, it's shitty.

As well as to conflate the bit "well at least make my VE look more like a HE so I can pretend more easily" with just caring about the aesthetic. That is just conformation bias on your part.

Skin tone was the commonly put forward potential 'compromise' in those threads, repeated again and again. I believe that has likely left the impression that the High Elf request is driven by aesthetics rather than lore. This seems to be the impression Ion and other devs have on the matter. Also they are not entirely wrong, some players do just want a blood elf clone on the Alliance.

See? That's the thing, skin tone would be at least something more, hence why the compromise argument, but it's definitely on light of not having anything else. So yeah, taking this point as "oh you only care about the skin tone" is just biased. No, I would have rather we had VE made out of HE, this is about getting any scrap.

And again, saying that "well Ion got the impression it was just about" is just justification for dismissing all the feedback given. Feedback WAS given, across may threads. None of it was actually addressed.

Saying Void Elves is not the compromise because you personally are unsatisfied with it as an outcome does not diminish that they were clearly intended as a compromise. They are also a compromise that works with the Allied race system, which so far has relied upon taking an existing race, changing the palette and providing a different lore rationale behind them. I cannot speak as to why they selected a hitherto unknown group of Blood Elves as the basis for the group rather than a group of Alliance High Elves. As they, like myself, believe that a High Elves and Blood Elves are the same people divided by a political opinion, perhaps they felt it didn't matter? Or perhaps there are long term narratives we are unaware of where Alliance High Elves or Void Elves will be required to play a role, such as the rumored Silvermoon Warfront.

It's not a compromise for High Elves because they are simply not the same group of High Elves that were ALREADY on the alliance. Simply as that. I am totally on board with the aesthetic being the compromise, sure, but if none of the LORE actually fits, how can it ever be a compromise for the people that wanted High Elves? it's a nonsense statement that shows that you legitimally consider the aesthetic the relevant bit. And speaking for myself and others, IT'S NOT.

We wanted High Elves because they were already in the alliance. We didn't get that. How is it a compromise? If it was intented as a compromise, it's a horrible one that doesn't even address the reason why some people wanted them.

And again, I stress THIS: If Void Elves had been made of High Elves, my tune would have been another thing entirely now.

The whole point of a compromise is that nobody is satisfied. I am not keen on the thalassian model going to the Alliance, nor am I keen on the kaldorei model going Horde.

The point of a compromise is that BOTH PARTIES CAN WALK AWAY HAPPY. There are compromises suggested that seek to keep the faction integrity, but you cannot obviate the fact that Nightbrone and VE already exist so they ARE precedent for what is doable, so wherther you personally find permisible is irrelevant on the macro level.

That the Mag'har Orcs came from AU Draenor rather than Outland is not a major concern. They are still a group of Orcs who did not drink the blood, In fact, it is even more authentic, as the distinctive clans are represented within the Mag'har in a way they wouldn't be within the Outland versions.

Pretty irrelevant statement. The point is that you have the whole aesthetic to pretend to be an Outland Mag'har even if the racial backstory is not the same. Again, Lore or Aesthetic by their own could be enough of a compromise for some. Personally I would rather have lore -SC joining the Ren'dorei- but I wouldn't kick a gift horse in the face if we got the aesthetic. It's something at least.

A better story would not have stopped the backlash I am afraid. While you may have been satisfied with a better story, I do not believe everyone else would have been.

No way to know really. But I do know I would have probably been arguing with people that didn't accept that HE are now blue and voidy rather than you.

Which is a personal approach and one I wouldn't mind, as then they would be Void Elves. But the Alliance High Elves aren't the representatives of the High Elf story. That is the Blood Elves. The Alliance High Elves could become Void Elves, or have Half Elf children, but they don't have their own path anymore.

No one here is claiming that the Alliance High Elves are the representatives of the High Elf storyline over Blood Elves, nor I support the notion that either faction can claim the whole of their backstory as their own. Nightborne and Night Elves share a past, that doesn't make their strories any less valid or weaker, VE do so the same with BE, as do HE, but everyone splintered to a different path.

Sure, BE by most accounts do have the "most" of their heritage, so to speak. That doesn't meant neither VE or HE can't have some of it, that's a silly point to make.

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That’s thing, they’re not different when next to each other; they’re the same model, using a skin tone that’s available to BE’s. When you use the model viewer (which I do), there is no separate model for High Elves. There’s only BE’s and the skin tones are the same ones that are available in the character selection screen with additional blue eyed variants. The skin tones aren’t different from one another (only the eye colors are).

Like it has been said many times, Kul'tirans didn't have a unique model before BfA, so arguing about "but they don't look different now" is a moot point.

They can come for whatever reason HE could look different retroactively, if the impetus IS to make them different.

[baskev]

That’s thing, they’re not different when next to each other; they’re the same model, using a skin tone that’s available to BE’s.

So blood elves can have blue eyes?!?!
And btw you are side stepping the point. Blizzard clearly showed a difference between both of the elves.

When you use the model viewer (which I do), there is no separate model for High Elves. There’s only BE’s and the skin tones are the same ones that are available in the character selection screen with additional blue eyed variants.

So every npc species is in the model viewer.....let me check...nope they are not. so this proofs nothing. there are no hobgoblins, nalthanos, fat goblins and many more.

The skin tones aren’t different from one another (only the eye colors are).

Again watch the INGAME cinematic. It proofs my point. Blizzard make a choice to make them look different.

Otherwise in your logic they would both have elves in the army that look like they are from the same part of the neigberhood.
This is like comparing ginger british people to greek people. They are both white....but it ends there.

[Alpharius]

Can we have a special high elf containment forum?


Edit:

also if you really want helves push for helf druids instead of shamans because you want your race to have an actual good class

[deynao]

IMO void elves are the best allied race

[Deleted]

Yes it was. Not very good, I'm shit at sarcasm, admittedly. Still, sarcasm or not, the point stands.

The point being...?

And yes, I'm sure when anyone tells you to shut the hell up and deal with the fact that you are not getting Helfs is a desperate plea. I have no doubt some of you even believe that.

Well, it was more like 'wah, wah, why do you continue to ask for this, play VE, stop asking HE, wah, wah, I am tired of having to click on this thread non stop and read, so stop, waaah!!!" More or less a desperate plea. Not sure what's the point of your cries though. Afraid that Blizzard will give in?

I think my sentence was coherent enough to understand, I mean I am talking to you fellas so I have to make it really clear, but your stubbornness is amusing at least if not your simplistic capacity to read, riddled with helf bias.

You wrote how it's our problem that Blizzard can't delete a race and that we are counting on it. Maybe you did indeed mean what you say now, but then structure your thoughts normally and not in a nonsensical rambling way.

And belfs are a playable race since in BC. What's your point? Since BC the Belfs have had sole access to their previous lore spanning back to their separation from the Nelfs. The fact that Helfs are around does not change a god damned thing and it does not make this issue any less complicated that int was before you opened your mouth to blurt out the fact that Helfs have been around for a really long time.

What is the point of all of you writing all of this? Did you have a random 'Warcraft fact of the day' fit? Though Belfs having the sole access to previous lore according to you means you don't believe VE exist. Well, sorry to break it for you, but unfortunately they do.

And please, don't imagine I'm ever speaking on behalf of any whiny helf enthusiast just as no helf fan is gonna speak on mine. I disagree entirely with the idea of helfs being added and with the manner many of you choose to support your requests, kinda like you who are fighting windmills now.

I don't know, you speak as if you know what HE fans are truly thinking about despite saying differently. You must be a secret HE fan yourself?

[Evilfish]

The point being...?


Well, it was more like 'wah, wah, why do you continue to ask for this, play VE, stop asking HE, wah, wah, I am tired of having to click on this thread non stop and read, so stop, waaah!!!" More or less a desperate plea. Not sure what's the point of your cries though. Afraid that Blizzard will give in?


You wrote how it's our problem that Blizzard can't delete a race and that we are counting on it. Maybe you did indeed mean what you say now, but then structure your thoughts normally and not in a nonsensical rambling way.


What is the point of all of you writing all of this? Did you have a random 'Warcraft fact of the day' fit? Though Belfs having the sole access to previous lore according to you means you don't believe VE exist. Well, sorry to break it for you, but unfortunately they do.


I don't know, you speak as if you know what HE fans are truly thinking about despite saying differently. You must be a secret HE fan yourself?

The point being a few pouty, vocal people being unable to get past skin color.

And no, I'm not afraid Blizzard will give in. They "gave in" when they gave you Velfs, giving you Helfs is just moronic right now, especially the way some of you ask for them. Twist and turn it you your head as much as you want to, I don't know, be able to live with yourself. The fact is what you want has come under the form of the void elf. It's over.

No, how you interpret it is your problem and let's be honest, during our discussion your interpretation is all over the place, like for example your following line. I would imagine you were deliberately misinterpreting if I didn't know who I was talking to. How the fuck would I not believe velfs exist when I used them in my arguments several times. Like I said, you take my words and twist them in your head.

Your last line is so stupid I honestly have no wish to reply to it.

[FlubberPuddy]

Still more likely to be added than Helfs.

I think it's nonsensical to think there would be an imbalance of elf options on one side of the playable factions. Imbalanced amount of Elf options were only around for ~2 years compared to balanced amount of Elf options for 12+ years.

Even more nonsensical to think another Elf variant would be added amongst the "too many elves" narrative that is being brought up atm.

Especially those amongst the group that says High Elves couldn't be added due to looking so similar to Blood Elves. People even dress up their Void Elves to look like Dark Rangers (aka Undead Elves) already.



Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...gers_with_the/

Dark Rangers just have pale skin tones, which Void Elves have access to in spades. The only difference would be the red eye color. If you're someone who says High Elves are only a difference in eye color and thus can't be made into an Allied Race, then this same reasoning is applied to Undead Elves on Horde side. It's a self-defeating argument.

Therefore it's truly illogical to say one is more likely to be added over the other.

[Evilfish]

Therefore it's truly illogical to say one is more likely to be added over the other.

Nice speech, but to be honest it's less logic and more convincing yourself. What about the latest additions? The brown orcs and the dark dwarves. Only skin there, but separate enough and unique enough to the faction they join not to cheapen existing races by tossing them over the faction fense again. So keeping that in mind, undead elves are a lot more likely than Helfs especially the way some of you want them. They don't have to jump the faction barrier and are unique enough and their lore isolated enough to be added without much fuss, minus being another elf race.

Let's cut the crap, at this point, murlocs are more likely than Helfs. Go beg Ion to change his mind.

[FlubberPuddy]

Nice speech, but to be honest it's less logic and more convincing yourself. What about the latest additions? The brown orcs and the dark dwarves. Only skin there, but separate enough and unique enough to the faction they join not to cheapen existing races by tossing them over the faction fense again. So keeping that in mind, undead elves are a lot more likely than Helfs especially the way some of you want them. They don't have to jump the faction barrier and are unique enough and their lore isolated enough to be added without much fuss, minus being another elf race.

Let's cut the crap, at this point, murlocs are more likely than Helfs. Go beg Ion to change his mind.

You realize that most of the argument against High Elves boils down to "their skin color is too similar to blood elves, which is why void elves are here instead" which Ion pretty much argued.

You bring up brown orcs, and dark skin dwarves, neither of those tones are shared by existing orcs/dwarves.

Undead elves contain pale skin, which Void Elves have in spades only difference is red eyes. So if your argument is High Elves look too similar to Blood Elves sans Blue Eyes, then the argument that Undead Elves look too similar to Void Elves sans the Red Eyes holds true just the same.

Brown Orcs don't share skin tone with Green Orcs, Dark Irons don't share skin tones with Ironforge Dwarves.

You just used an idiotic argument, and then used an even more dumb counter. Seriously, you're playing yourself and it's hilarious.

[Andromedes]

Basically undead elves kind of are void elves with slight different eye color, different backstory in terms of their relationship with magic, but if you want to be this dead skinned, greasy haired, gloomy, sad elf, that is a void elf. And giving that race directly to horde would blur a lot of lines between the two factions.

But there is also not clear example of who or what undead elves are as a larger group that remains on Azeroth. We just met Blood prince dreven for the first time, but they arent out there in the same way.
So what we are looking to, when we add allied races, there is desire to have things even more distinct especially between the two factions.

[Evilfish]

You realize that most of the argument against High Elves boils down to "their skin color is too similar to blood elves, which is why void elves are here instead" which Ion pretty much argued.

You bring up brown orcs, and dark skin dwarves, neither of those tones are shared by existing orcs/dwarves.

Undead elves contain pale skin, which Void Elves have in spades only difference is red eyes. So if your argument is High Elves look too similar to Blood Elves sans Blue Eyes, then the argument that Undead Elves look too similar to Void Elves sans the Red Eyes holds true just the same.

Brown Orcs don't share skin tone with Green Orcs, Dark Irons don't share skin tones with Ironforge Dwarves.

You just used an idiotic argument, and then used an even more dumb counter. Seriously, you're playing yourself and it's hilarious.

Yeah, that's an argument, it's also the fact that they are Belfs in the Alliance. Nothing keeps them apart any more, not even the eyes. Ion gave you the simple answer, the same answer others gave you when you went on with this crap. Ironically you replied with the same bile to Ion.

So what? They were supposed to look slightly different and Undead Elves can have pale skins and different customization options more akin to the Forsaken. So please cut the crap trying to bust the skin color myth. It's not the skin, it's the entire race for fuck sake. Your logic does not work with Helfs. Get it?

So whatever, declare yourself victorious over the argument, you fellas seem to like that. I mean what do you think? That someone is gonna fall for your dumb crap? That you'll "convert" me? No, it's just one of your usual tactics. Lot of good that did you when, after all this time, you are still weeping here, even after the Lead Designer told you to give it a rest cause it is not happening. So you calling my arguments idiotic is much like a hobo calling someone a bum.

[FlubberPuddy]

Yeah, that's an argument, it's also the fact that they are Belfs in the Alliance. Nothing keeps them apart any more, not even the eyes. Ion gave you the simple answer, the same answer others gave you when you went on with this crap. Ironically you replied with the same bile to Ion.

So what? They were supposed to look slightly different and Undead Elves can have pale skins and different customization options more akin to the Forsaken. So please cut the crap trying to bust the skin color myth. It's not the skin, it's the entire race for fuck sake. Your logic does not work with Helfs. Get it?

So whatever, declare yourself victorious over the argument, you fellas seem to like that. I mean what do you think? That someone is gonna fall for your dumb crap? That you'll "convert" me? No, it's just one of your usual tactics. Lot of good that did you when, after all this time, you are still weeping here, even after the Lead Designer told you to give it a rest cause it is not happening. So you calling my arguments idiotic is much like a hobo calling someone a bum.

Love how you're now arguing for Undead Elves with the same justifications High Elf fans are using for High Elves.

Truly don't give a shit what you personally believe. I consider myself "victorious" (as you put it) until the day they actually do add Undead Elves which, judging by your hypocritical arguments made for their inclusion, isn't looking any stellar for you at all.

[Evilfish]

Love how you're now arguing for Undead Elves with the same justifications High Elf fans are using for High Elves.

Truly don't give a shit what you personally believe. I consider myself "victorious" (as you put it) until the day they actually do add Undead Elves which, judging by your hypocritical arguments made for their inclusion, isn't looking any stellar for you at all.

I see, you are trying to get a low jab cause I disagreed with your helf fetish. I honestly don't give a fuck if they add undead elves or not, it's not the race I want playable. But keep posting your crap, conveniently ignoring the important parts, it's worked well for people who disagreed with you so far. Really well considering it was you who gave the Horde playable Nightborne and even a dev had to tell you to pick a side already and stuck the fuck up. But keep yapping on.

[Neverafter]

Lot of good that did you when, after all this time, you are still weeping here, even after the Lead Designer told you to give it a rest cause it is not happening. So you calling my arguments idiotic is much like a hobo calling someone a bum.

Or you a ghost and me a spirit

Or you a janitor and me a custodian

Or you a mortician and me an undertaker

On topic: I would love to play a High Elf on the Alliance. There is every lore justification in the world to do it. Unfortunately, that boat has already sailed and sunk somewhere between the Broken Shore and Kul Tiras. Night Elves, Blood Elves, Void Elves, and Nightborne are already playable. 2 sets of elves for each faction is plenty. Adding more, whether High Elves or San'Layn (who aren't they all killed off in the Alliance Story anyway?) would be too much.

The only somewhat feasible thing would be to make playable Blood Elves have an option to permanently change allegiances to the Alliance. The chances of that are fairly slim, especially given the fact that if Blizzard was to do such a thing, the Horde would require a similar race to change from Alliance to Horde. Human, Gnome, Dwarf, Night Elf certainly don't make much sense. Draenei don't seem to have any connection to the Horde. Worgen, with their animosity towards Forsaken would be quite a stretch. Void Elves just left the Horde. Lightforged have no connection either. There's simply no parallel in giving Alliance High Elves to giving some race to Horde. The closest would probably be leper gnomes, but, c'mon, does the horde really need tiny little green people with an affinity towards technology and gadgets?

[FlubberPuddy]

I see, you are trying to get a low jab cause I disagreed with your helf fetish. I honestly don't give a fuck if they add undead elves or not, it's not the race I want playable. But keep posting your crap, conveniently ignoring the important parts, it's worked well for people who disagreed with you so far. Really well considering it was you who gave the Horde playable Nightborne and even a dev had to tell you to pick a side already and stuck the fuck up. But keep yapping on.

Nah, it's just funny that you're not even trying to defend a hypocritical argument you made. Maybe you realize how dumb it sounds too. Doesn't matter if you actually wanted Undead Elves or not, that was a pathetic attempt at arguing for them.

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The only somewhat feasible thing would be to make playable Blood Elves have an option to permanently change allegiances to the Alliance. The chances of that are fairly slim, especially given the fact that if Blizzard was to do such a thing, the Horde would require a similar race to change from Alliance to Horde.

Very very slim I agree, probably more impossible than getting High Elves lol.

Fun fact though, Kevin Jordan (Vanilla Class Designer) said they originally didn't want to have a faction system in place coming off the likes of EQ and he (and others) had to argue for it be the case, since Horde and Alliance (and Orcs vs Humans) pretty much defines World of Warcraft.

With that said, either it's just fluff Blizzard likes to bring up now and again, or there's something more to the drops of "Blood Elves coming back to the Alliance."

[Evilfish]

Nah, it's just funny that you're not even trying to defend a hypocritical argument you made. Maybe you realize how dumb it sounds too. Doesn't matter if you actually wanted Undead Elves or not, that was a pathetic attempt at arguing for them.

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Very very slim I agree, probably more impossible than getting High Elves lol.

Fun fact though, Kevin Jordan (Vanilla Class Designer) said they originally didn't want to have a faction system in place coming off the likes of EQ and he (and others) had to argue for it be the case, since Horde and Alliance (and Orcs vs Humans) pretty much defines World of Warcraft.

With that said, either it's just fluff Blizzard likes to bring up now and again, or there's something more to the drops of "Blood Elves coming back to the Alliance."

Less pathetic than you still arguing for Helfs after Velfs and Ion? No. There's nothing past that. Now that is a funny irony.

[FlubberPuddy]

Less pathetic than you still arguing for Helfs after Velfs and Ion? No. There's nothing past that. Now that is a funny irony.

Let it go dude, it's pretty clear you can't control yourself from getting the last word and are now just replying with nothing that adds to the overall discussion of the thread, nor to your hypocritical argument.

I could reply "Yes, also much less pathetic than you still repeating they won't be after Ion" and we could continue this wasteful back and forth.

So this is my last piece with you and then you can of course reply to it in your typical condescending non-relevant manner and continue on your merry way. Have a good day!

[Maxilian]

I think it's nonsensical to think there would be an imbalance of elf options on one side of the playable factions. Imbalanced amount of Elf options were only around for ~2 years compared to balanced amount of Elf options for 12+ years.

Even more nonsensical to think another Elf variant would be added amongst the "too many elves" narrative that is being brought up atm.

Especially those amongst the group that says High Elves couldn't be added due to looking so similar to Blood Elves. People even dress up their Void Elves to look like Dark Rangers (aka Undead Elves) already.



Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...gers_with_the/

Dark Rangers just have pale skin tones, which Void Elves have access to in spades. The only difference would be the red eye color. If you're someone who says High Elves are only a difference in eye color and thus can't be made into an Allied Race, then this same reasoning is applied to Undead Elves on Horde side. It's a self-defeating argument.

Therefore it's truly illogical to say one is more likely to be added over the other.

Then just make the dead elves Sanlayn (as most people want), as that would give them more of an unique feel :P

Note: I don't think HEs are impossible, actually i think they will become a thing (one way or the other), be it as an allied race, or just extra customization for the Void Elves to look more like Alleria that we get after a small questline like Tyrande's one.

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The only somewhat feasible thing would be to make playable Blood Elves have an option to permanently change allegiances to the Alliance. The chances of that are fairly slim, especially given the fact that if Blizzard was to do such a thing, the Horde would require a similar race to change from Alliance to Horde. Human, Gnome, Dwarf, Night Elf certainly don't make much sense. Draenei don't seem to have any connection to the Horde. Worgen, with their animosity towards Forsaken would be quite a stretch. Void Elves just left the Horde. Lightforged have no connection either. There's simply no parallel in giving Alliance High Elves to giving some race to Horde. The closest would probably be leper gnomes, but, c'mon, does the horde really need tiny little green people with an affinity towards technology and gadgets?

To be fair, the Horde could get Night Elves (kinda), as we have seen in the Darkshore questline, there are going to be many of them resurrected in the Horde as Dark Rangers.

Note: I'm just playing with the idea of it, not saying IT WILL HAPPEN, nor I WANT IT TO HAPPEN!, BLIZZARD PLZ!