Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Zandalariprelate]

I have faith that eventually all of those in some form will be added to WoW

In terms of race and/or class additions, WoW adds them at a snail's pace. 1 new class about every 4 years. A race added to each side every 4 years as well until MoP kinda broke that with Pandas but then no races in WoD so it evens out to the same kind of.

Except Allied Races have been a nice boon of short-hand additions. Seems like probably the amount of time that went into doing a starting zone for a race is what took an incredible amount of time.

I will still be around enjoying WoW all the same. Don't even get to play it much as is right now.

Good point but they will need to add another :sigh: elf race for the horde because for some reason the elves are more popular than literally every race on warcraft and even Mok'nathal will face a lot of negativity because people prefer nice looking races(nightborne npc and zandalaris) than gritty and tough looking ones like Kultirans or worgens.

[Fyersing]

Considered how the Silver Covenant passionately hate Blood Elves, it's hard to imagine the existence of such a ginormous hatred without the only one reason an High Elf could have to hate Blood Elves, especially since the TBC High Elves (the ones led by Auric) do not share that sentiment at all.

It shouldn't be hard to imagine at all.

The majority of the High Elves leading up to the Third War were domiciled in Quel'thalas, having formally withdrawn from the Alliance of Lordaeron following the Second War. After their kingdom was sacked by Arthas and the Scourge, they restyled themselves as Blood Elves; an often overlooked reality is that following the Second War, there were a few small holdouts (the largest being Dalaran, of course, but various ranging lodges as well) of individuals who had collectively elected to remain aligned with the Alliance of Lordaeron.

At some later point, a portion of the Blood Elves was exiled by Lor'themar (for refusing to siphon mana from living beings, and presumably publicly decrying the practice), and began calling themselves High Elves once more. These represent a minority of all High Elves, and furthermore almost every single one of them is currently dead.

The vast majority of modern High Elves were those individuals who were living outside of their national borders (Quel'thalas) following the Second War, who elected to maintain an affiliation with the Alliance instead of attaching themselves to an organization shared by groups who had decimated their friends, family, and countrymen.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Nope, not afraid at all. On the contrary, I believe you guys are afraid that you’ll never play a race that A) Belongs to the other faction and B) Hasn’t been relevant since Warcraft 3 and that's why this has gone on for so long.

I’m only in this thread because of my discussion with Flubber. It will not improve or worsen my game experience if they’re added or not. I personally just find this campaign to be amusing in all its futility.

If High Elves don't become playable it literally changes nothing of my current gaming experience too you know.

Playable High Elves would be neat, we like them, whatever opinion you have on their relevance that is irrelevant to our request, specially when their continued appearances in game literally make them... relevant.

- - - Updated - - -

High Elves have also appeared in 6/7 expansions now. So given the probability there it's likely they'll continue showing up in most other expansions as well. They didn't become irrelevant due to Void Elves, so unless the overall story involves heading somewhere elves can't exist or don't (like Draenor) then it's very likely that High Elves will be alongside Alliance just as well.

Silver Covenant High Elves! The faction that keeps showing up but someone they aren't relevant!

They have been more relevant than Tushii and Huojin FFS

- - - Updated - - -

Probably someone already said this but the day the high elves will be added, its the same day ogres and necromancers will be added so probably that will happen in a very very far away future or maybe never.

But what a fine day would that be for people that want Ogres, Necromancers and High Elves!

[FlubberPuddy]

Good point but they will need to add another :sigh: elf race for the horde because for some reason the elves are more popular than literally every race on warcraft and even Mok'nathal will face a lot of negativity because people prefer nice looking races(nightborne npc and zandalaris) than gritty and tough looking ones like Kultirans or worgens.

Rest assured they will not add another elf so soon. Not until every other race gets a sort of "2nd variation".

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

And why, if brown skinned elves exist, were they all exiled? Why didn't some of the brown skinned elves say, 'You know, I would rather stay here and serve my Prince?'

Why wouldn't we have brown skinned Blood Elves?

I have no objection to darker skin tones for thalassian elves, but as an idea for differentiation with the Blood Elves they come with a lot of unpleasant connotations. If those skin tones are provided, there is an absolutely no reason why they would not be an option for Blood Elves too.
@Fyersing this is the sort of thing regarding differentiation I am on about by the way.

As the one that makes these edits, wanting brown skinned elves is an aside issue from the High/Blood elf thing and I did not make them to show that High Elves should be brown and blood elves white for differentiation's sake.

High Elves for the Alliance

Brown Skinned Elves for everyone.

[FlubberPuddy]

As the one that makes these edits, wanting brown skinned elves is an aside issue from the High/Blood elf thing and I did not make them to show that High Elves should be brown and blood elves white for differentiation's sake.

High Elves for the Alliance

Brown Skinned Elves for everyone.

Very gracious of you, but honestly it feels like some people think that every customization that can go to High Elves to accentuate the differences between them and Blood Elves should automatically go to Blood Elves, as if they have some "right" to it.

We know this not to be true though, that different customization options such has skin/hair color/hairstyles/facial hair/accessories etc are all made to purposely further differentiate between the racial choices available to players that are similar to each other.

It is why Highmountain Tauren have access to tattoos and Mulgore Tauren don't. It's why Lightforged Draenei get access to tattoos and a perma Naaru sign when regular Draenei do not. It's why KulTirans can only be selected as their heavier versions and not the already same version of Stormwind Humans that we have access to and even see among KulTirans (as a KulTiran).

It's why even though Blood Elf male players want to have some of the facial beards available to Void Elf males, or the Green Orc players want some of the hairstyles available to Mag'har Orc players, will never happen. It was created differently exactly because Blizzard wants to potentiate differences between similar choices.

This is why the same can be done for High Elves on Alliance.

Also it would just look incredibly poor if Blizzard took all the design/artwork that fans have made for Alliance High Elves and plops them onto Blood Elves. As if that would go over well from a PR standpoint.

Besides, as has been shown many times, the status quo is that there are certain themes of a race that a much more pronounced to identify that race as a whole. Even if said race does include various minor themes, not all are presented.

Just like Stormwind Humans are depicted full of being Light worshipping and Knightly even though they house Warlocks/Rogues/Hunters. It's why Paladin and Priests are much more presented among Draenei (and especially Lightforged Draenei) even though the race has mages/shamans as well. Also it's why Orc representations are typically Warrior heavy, even if there are mages/warlocks.

All one needs to do is honestly look at the Heritage Armors to see the pinnacle of what Blizzard deems to be portraying the race. It's why Gnome Heritage Armor looks techy-magey even though Gnomes can be Warriors/Priests/Rogues.

It seems that if a race wants to "fill out" the rest of its class representations then it can happen through the Warfront Armor sets. As we have seen, Warfront Armor for Forsaken and Night Elves are including pretty much a lot of each race's stand out themes (with Forsaken Apothecaries (cloth), Deathstalkers (leather), Hunters (mail), Deathguard (plate) and Night Elf Priests/esses (cloth), Rogues (leather), Hunters/resses (mail), Sentinels (plate)).

Therefore if Farstrider aesthetics were to show up on Blood Elves, it would probably be in the form of Ranger armor (mail) from a Silvermoon Warfront of sorts.

They still wouldn't have access to feathers in hair or warpaints though, as again that is something part of race customization and has been pointed out the specific customization options are made to emphasize certain aspects of a race. No race has every facet of its groups/communities/organizations represented through character customization options so I'm not sure why Blood Elves would become the exception to the status quo.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Very gracious of you, but honestly it feels like some people think that every customization that can go to High Elves to accentuate the differences between them and Blood Elves should automatically go to Blood Elves, as if they have some "right" to it.

We know this not to be true though, that different customization options such has skin/hair color/hairstyles/facial hair/accessories etc are all made to purposely further differentiate between the racial choices available to players that are similar to each other.

It is why Highmountain Tauren have access to tattoos and Mulgore Tauren don't. It's why Lightforged Draenei get access to tattoos and a perma Naaru sign when regular Draenei do not. It's why KulTirans can only be selected as their heavier versions and not the already same version of Stormwind Humans that we have access to and even see among KulTirans (as a KulTiran).

It's why even though Blood Elf male players want to have some of the facial beards available to Void Elf males, or the Green Orc players want some of the hairstyles available to Mag'har Orc players, will never happen. It was created differently exactly because Blizzard wants to potentiate differences between similar choices.

This is why the same can be done for High Elves on Alliance.

Also it would just look incredibly poor if Blizzard took all the design/artwork that fans have made for Alliance High Elves and plops them onto Blood Elves. As if that would go over well from a PR standpoint.

Besides, as has been shown many times, the status quo is that there are certain themes of a race that a much more pronounced to identify that race as a whole. Even if said race does include various minor themes, not all are presented.

Just like Stormwind Humans are depicted full of being Light worshipping and Knightly even though they house Warlocks/Rogues/Hunters. It's why Paladin and Priests are much more presented among Draenei (and especially Lightforged Draenei) even though the race has mages/shamans as well. Also it's why Orc representations are typically Warrior heavy, even if there are mages/warlocks.

All one needs to do is honestly look at the Heritage Armors to see the pinnacle of what Blizzard deems to be portraying the race. It's why Gnome Heritage Armor looks techy-magey even though Gnomes can be Warriors/Priests/Rogues.

It seems that if a race wants to "fill out" the rest of its class representations then it can happen through the Warfront Armor sets. As we have seen, Warfront Armor for Forsaken and Night Elves are including pretty much a lot of each race's stand out themes (with Forsaken Apothecaries (cloth), Deathstalkers (leather), Hunters (mail), Deathguard (plate) and Night Elf Priests/esses (cloth), Rogues (leather), Hunters/resses (mail), Sentinels (plate)).

Therefore if Farstrider aesthetics were to show up on Blood Elves, it would probably be in the form of Ranger armor (mail) from a Silvermoon Warfront of sorts.

They still wouldn't have access to feathers in hair or warpaints though, as again that is something part of race customization and has been pointed out the specific customization options are made to emphasize certain aspects of a race. No race has every facet of its groups/communities/organizations represented through character customization options so I'm not sure why Blood Elves would become the exception to the status quo.

Like I agree, but this has nothing to do with skin color lol. All elves should have more skin tone options, that's my point regarding that.

I do agree with what you are saying and I understand why you are using my comment as a jumping start for your point, but I do think it's a different issue than Warcraft's frankly outdated imagining of elves in terms of how they look like. -Personally tho, if I would envision a difference in skin tone, I would make High Elves more "ashy" or "pale" and not as sun kissed, using colder undertones, and more beige or neutral skin, less warm overall. And to BE would give warmer earth tones, very sun kissed.-

And yeah, I am highly critical about how underutlized the Ranger themes have been on Blood Elves, and I'm of the mind if they aren't using them, the High Elves could, specially when the ONLY person using the "aesthetic" rn is the most Iconic High Elf Ranger.

[Garfurion]

Rest assured they will not add another elf so soon. Not until every other race gets a sort of "2nd variation".

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Undead Elves have been requested almost as long as High Elves so the most logical choice for a 2nd variation of Forsaken would be Undead Elves and Blizzard has been hinting at either undead Night-Elves or San'layn joining the horde (probably to test player reactions). Similarly the most obvious choice for a 2nd variation of Worgen is Night-Elf Worgen.

Both could fit into the BFA story for Dark Shore.

[Obelisk Kai]

Eredar being corrupted by Sargeras and not the other way around is a "gigantic retcon", and it is not even that gigantic.

Placing HE in the alliance as a playable option with the current lore is just adding a current alliance race in the character creation panel, not even a retcon.

Please, is very easy to understand at this point...

If in Vanilla someone had asked for a group of good, playable Eredar I would have said that request was without merit too because there was no evidence that any such group existed. But there wasn't any evidence against them either as nobody had even conceived of them. A massive retcon was required to rearrange the plot to justify the existence of the Draenei.

Conversely, High Elves are a known quantity (and that quantity is minute). There is no merit to the case here because what they are has been defined. A tiny band of expatriates, primarily hunters with a handful of Dalaran loyal Mages that are identical to Blood Elves in all ways save their political allegiance. A retcon would be required to justify their inclusion, as they would have to be differentiated from Blood Elves despite being portrayed identically for the past decade and a half. And differentiation is a critical factor when it comes to Allied races, as all were differentiated from their parent races. Which is where Void Elves came from.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think that they are strongly connected to the light. They may have some paladins who try to be in good relationship with Naaru, but their light magic is mostly about magic, not religion. If they were religious people, they wouldn't abandon Elune.

Thalassian Elves worship the light, not Elune. If their Highborne ancestors ever worshipped Elune they abandoned that practice millenia ago. However, they do not come across as particularly religious so 'Light worshipping' might come across as too strong. Light orientated might be a better turn of phrase. The light does play a major part in their lives now, the Sunwell is a holy-arcane energy source of which every thalassian elf partakes.The contrast between the light sustained Blood Elves and their Void Elf brethren has the potential for some amazing stories in the future.

Please note, that as High Elves and Blood Elves are biologically identical, Alliance High Elves are subject to the same light based changes affecting the vast majority of their race. High Elves therefore cannot be differentiated from Blood Elves due to the light, it will play as big as a role for those few remnants as the Blood Elves.

- - - Updated - - -

As the one that makes these edits, wanting brown skinned elves is an aside issue from the High/Blood elf thing and I did not make them to show that High Elves should be brown and blood elves white for differentiation's sake.

High Elves for the Alliance

Brown Skinned Elves for everyone.

Fair enough. I have no issue with darker skin tones for thalassian elves. But I do have an issue with people who say they could be used as a level of differentiation between Blood and High Elves as there are unfortunate connotations in the lore to such a scenario if all the darker skin elves turned out to have chosen exile.

- - - Updated - - -

The purpose of public exchange is seldom to change the mind of the people actively engaged in the discussion, but rather to function as a platform from which all of the relevant notions can be explained to the wider population. So any/all back-and-forth about playable HE's isn't intended to change the minds of people who've made up their minds, but to change the minds of people who haven't.

Which of course, includes Blizzard themselves. And includes the feedback of Horde players objecting to the duplication of one of their core races to the Alliance, which is what playable High Elves are.

The narrative, as it exists currently, disagrees.

As I have demonstrated, the narrative does not show this. It shows High Elves either aping Silvermoon in terminology, architecture and even religion (pilgrimages to the Sunwell) or embracing Human norms as a supplement. Where there is divergence, there is not cultural innovation but assimilation.

It is a sort of odd position to take, don't you think? You're positing that there aren't large enough differences between BE's and HE's, which would theoretically hamstring Blizzard's ability to create a sufficiently unique thematic for the latter, while simultaneously suggesting that "expanding [said differences] with supposition and extrapolation" is an inherently flawed means of driving narrative.

Isn't "expanding [upon things] with supposition and extrapolation" like, definitionally, how stories progress?

In the time frames given, no. The political separation happened only a few years ago. For as long as WoW lasts, the separation will always be 'only a few years ago'. WoW moves forward at a rate of approximately one year per expansion pack. We are now about twelve or thirteen years in game since the fall of Silvermoon. That is nowhere near enough for differentiation on a thematic or aesthetic level to take place naturally. This is also likely why the Void Elves got zapped, an outside force was required to transform a group of thalassian elves to the necessary degree required for them not to infringe on the thematic or aesthetic of a core Horde race.

The story must be plausible. At the moment, the dynamic is that the few remaining Alliance High Elves are dying off through attrition, those who survive are implied by Elisande to be siring Half Elf children (the REAL takeaway from her message at Suramar) and that they are slowly being assimilated into Human society. Supposition and extrapolation therefore lead to a small group of exiled Elves surrounded by a number of Half Elves. Half Elves might be an Allied race one day.

As is the case with the majority of all playable races. If you're trying to assert that HE's aren't reeaalllly permanent fixtures within the narrative, on the basis that they play second fiddle at all times, then you're also suggesting the same thing of any playable race that isn't Human, Orc, Night Elf, Blood Elf. Codswallop, m'boy.

More proportions. As stated, High Elves are not only background figures but they are ones conspicuous by their rarity. As I levelled my Alliance characters over the years I lost count of the number of Gnomes, Dwarves, Draenei, Night Elves and even Worgen I encountered in Alliance ranks, to say nothing of the omni-present Humans. High Elves to me did not have that overwhelming presence of just being there, even as NPCs, that every other playable race had prior to the introduction of the Allied race system. And from the PTR, the Allied races are getting some exposure in terms of showing off their presence in some of the incursions and the war campaign. The High Elf population for BFA stands at four, and two of those are nameless NPCs in the warfront.

I'm not necessarily going to throw my weight being the idea, but as I mentioned in the previous post, the HE's fascination with traditional terminology can be reasonably understood as a desperate attempt at regaining some semblance of an ancestral identity. The cultural distinctions aren't terminologically-based, but sociologically-based; their behaviors and mannerisms are quite divergent, especially in alternative media.

Which is entirely subjective. I've seen the same alternative media you have, and they have never struck me as being terribly different from the Blood Elves, particularly when we read the books set during the Second War.

Yes, I agree. In fact, I'll likely agree with almost everything that has to do with concerns that the BE-playerbase might have regarding the visual aspects of implementing playable HE's -- which is to say, I'm a proponent of playable HE's requiring an extreme makeover.

Which I do not believe is justified in game. It's a solution to a problem at odds with lore. High Elves should not look different from Blood Elves because they are the same people and have always been portrayed as the same people. On the two occasions when the thalassian elf model was upgraded, all thalassian elves were upgraded with the same model.

And before you argue about the Kul Tirans being Human with a different model, I think the heavy implication there is that some Drust blood probably runs in Kul Tiran veins and those massive individuals are throwbacks who favour their Vrykul ancestry a bit more than the Gilnean. Supposition and extrapolation surely, but supposition and extrapolation that offers a lore based rationale for the difference. High Elves don't have a speculative narrative path to justify such a level of differentiation. Particularly as for the past fifteen years in game Blizzard has stuck rigidly to the obvious truth, as Blood Elves and High Elves are the same people, they use the same model.

Note: In the physical sense, Void Elves were a smashing success (though, I might've hoped for a little morphological manipulation of their models, like Nightborne). A huge issue with VE's, with regard to appeasing people who wanted playable HE's, is that they literally aren't High Elves; and I'm not begrudging that they're not pink-skinned and/or blonde, but that literally zero Void Elves were formerly High Elves.

Every Void Elf was formerly a High Elf. That they went through an intermediate stage as Blood Elves is irrelevant, as being a Blood Elf is a political choice (as was betraying their people and siding with the Alliance as an Alliance High Elf). Besides, and again this is only heavily implied, it still looks like the Void Elves can convert other thalassian elves into being Void Elves. Importantly, it is not stated that this is impossible. It is perfectly reasonable to roleplay a High Elf who signed up to become a Void Elf after the event.
Given the fascination Umbric had with the void and his distaste for the Horde, it is perfectly plausible to roleplay a High Elf who hooked up with Umbric before the event and was caught in it. If the issue with Void Elves is that they weren't explicitly stated to include Alliance High Elves, there are narrative loopholes through that. That these aren't employed makes me believe that had the Void Elves consisted of Silver Covenant members that were transformed instead of renegade Blood Elves there still would have been the backlash from the pro High Elf community that it wasn't what was wanted. It is easy to claim the fact that the Void Elves weren't the Silver Covenant originally is the main problem. Frankly, I don't believe that for a moment. It's because they aren't High Elves in the biological sense anymore. They have been transformed.

Renthar Hawkspear wasn't ever a part of the Alliance in the period we're talking about. That said, I'd grant you that Vereesa is pretty flamboyantly arrogant, but this seems to be an isolated Windrunner-related mannerism moreso than a reflection of the whole sub-faction (the same way most Dark Rangers seem to be cool and collected, while Sylvanas literally can't handle the truth).

Considering Veressa Windrunner is one of only two High Elves who have any sort of character development, it cannot be taken to be an isolated character trait given the paucity of samples we have. The other High Elf, Auric, has had such little screen time that not much can be gleaned from his character and cannot be used as a point of comparison. All Veressa and Auric can stand for are themselves. But Veressa, the most prominent High Elf, is so easy to imagine as a Blood Elf. Considering all that would be required is a change of opinion, it is not implausible. What stopped her was her Human husband.

It is fair to say that they don't constitute a member-state, as they claim no lands and have formulated no government; that said, they certainly represent a member-constituency within the Alliance and from that position, they aggressively tackle conflicts on behalf of their neighbors. This isn't debatable, it's literally the reason why we see High Elf NPC's all the time, because they're always showing up to prove they're not fair-weather allies.

We see the same small group showing up repeatedly, they form a constituency within the Alliance but so does the Blood Elf Reliquary or the Forsaken Apothecaries within the Horde.

I'm curious which specific actions you believe qualifies as being treasonous?

Well they are currently siding with the Alliance which is at war with the Horde. The Kingdom of Quel'thalas, a member of the Horde, is therefore at war with the Alliance. Now, as an American, if someone in America fled to China because they didn't agree with American policy and then aided China in a war against the United States, how would you describe them?

I get people like Alliance High Elves but they ARE traitors. That is just a fact.

As to the last point, I have no trouble agreeing to that. If we actually look at both what the HE's do and say, instead of just one or the other, it's clear that what they mean when they say stuff like "Quel'thalas will be Alliance, someday", they're imagining it without any of the Blood Elves present.

Which likely means subjecting their homeland to a pretty brutal occupation and re-education...for their own good of course. Again, treasonous.


If it were entirely up to me, this entire discussion would disappear following Battle for Azeroth, as I'd completely remove the factions are a barrier to progressing the story.[/QUOTE]

It is possible that collapsing the faction wall entirely is something they have as a possible story moment or outcome at some point. If that is being kept in the back pocket, it would explain a part of the strong opposition to playable Alliance High Elves as if the day comes when the trigger is ever pulled they would have two physically identical groups whose only distinction is an adjective.

As someone who believes in the narrative potential of the faction divide, I hope that day never comes.

I would be immensely pleased with a situation whereby all of the various types of Thalassian are repatriated into the Kingdom of Quel'thalas and their internal political squabbles play out in a more localized way.

I wouldn't, unless it was completely under the banner of the Horde. Even should the faction wall come down, the division between Void Elves and Blood Elves is too great to reconcile, particularly given the threat the void elves pose to the Sunwell by their very existence. As for the High Elves, they are utterly outnumbered by the Blood Elves and likely despised over their actions in the purge. I doubt they would be able to return, even if the faction wall crumbles.

It's easy for me to imagine a Silvermoon City and Quel'danas wherein the bulk of the area is inhabited by the Blood Elves; a buffer area is inhabited by the High Elves; and an external (i.e. newly created) area is held by the Void Elves.

A single kingdom.
A single government.
A handful of ideologies, utilizing different means to achieve the same ends.

I find that impossible to conceive of. The Blood Elves will not cede territory to traitors, nor should they be expected to.

(P.S. I used most of my lunch typing this reply, can we go back to smaller quotes now please lol)

[Fyersing]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Undead Elves have been requested almost as long as High Elves so the most logical choice for a 2nd variation of Forsaken would be Undead Elves and Blizzard has been hinting at either undead Night-Elves or San'layn joining the horde (probably to test player reactions).

Well, Blizzard has thus far done everything in their power to make sure the "Elf Balance" remains equal across both factions. Unfotunately.

So people who don't want playable High Elves should be praying that the Fosaken-inspired Allied Race is a group of more preserved Forsaken, like Nathanos, and not San'layn OR Undead Elves.

[FlubberPuddy]

Like I agree, but this has nothing to do with skin color lol. All elves should have more skin tone options, that's my point regarding that.

I do agree with what you are saying and I understand why you are using my comment as a jumping start for your point, but I do think it's a different issue than Warcraft's frankly outdated imagining of elves in terms of how they look like. -Personally tho, if I would envision a difference in skin tone, I would make High Elves more "ashy" or "pale" and not as sun kissed, using colder undertones, and more beige or neutral skin, less warm overall. And to BE would give warmer earth tones, very sun kissed.-

And yeah, I am highly critical about how underutlized the Ranger themes have been on Blood Elves, and I'm of the mind if they aren't using them, the High Elves could, specially when the ONLY person using the "aesthetic" rn is the most Iconic High Elf Ranger.

Sorry I didn't clarify well enough in my opening statement. I agree that more skin colors across all elves should occur. "It's just some players seem to think any customization to a Thalassian Elf should go ONLY* to Blood Elves" is what I meant to write. Sometimes my brain moves faster than my fingers

I do agree that more options overall should open up in terms of character customization in general, and yes if a particular race isn't utilizing a certain theme heavily Blizzard has shown they are not against utilizing that theme elsewhere (Nightborne from Night Elf Highborne). Plus I will always think that players should be able to emulate their iconic leaders on their faction. This is the reasoning for why some Undead players want Undead Elves "to look like my faction leader" so story can be put in at the VERY MINIMUM to allow Void Elves to look like Alleria (either through a different ritual process that allows them to "make more Void Elves in a less corrupted way" or having some High Elves to be shown to joining in becoming Void Elves [through a different process again]).

For instance there are some games out there that let you obtain armor looks of particular villains or enemy creatures (Dark Souls pops up into my mind), I always felt that's an interesting thing for players to be able to have access to. The Warfront armors are doing their job here in giving access to more racially themed armor sets. And Blizzard sort of does this with items like Tusks of Mannoroth or Xavius's shoulders.

But we want more!

[Obelisk Kai]

Well, Blizzard has thus far done everything in their power to make sure the "Elf Balance" remains equal across both factions. Unfotunately.

So people who don't want playable High Elves should be praying that the Fosaken-inspired Allied Race is a group of more preserved Forsaken, like Nathanos, and not San'layn OR Undead Elves.

I have recently discovered that someone asked Ion Hazzikostas directly at Blizzcon if High Elves were still possible and the reply was not in BFA but anything is possible in future. Which, as we know, is a platitude meant to ensure that if they ever change their minds it looks like less of a climbdown in hindsight. So he essentially restated what he has stated twice in the past year already. I would also caution that the cadence of Allied race addition is being significantly reduced post BFA, which means opportunities to add playable High Elves are going to get a lore rarer and even more difficult to justify over something else.

If an Undead Elf variant is planned as a result of the events on the PTR, it will certainly not be accompanied by playable High Elves.

Having said that, as someone who believes we have reached maximum Elf, I do not expect to an Undead Elf variant added. I believe the next Horde allied race will be the Vulpera.

[FlubberPuddy]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Undead Elves have been requested almost as long as High Elves so the most logical choice for a 2nd variation of Forsaken would be Undead Elves and Blizzard has been hinting at either undead Night-Elves or San'layn joining the horde (probably to test player reactions). Similarly the most obvious choice for a 2nd variation of Worgen is Night-Elf Worgen.

Both could fit into the BFA story for Dark Shore.

I am very sure of it. I don't see them breaking the status quo to add another set of elves after the overwhelming majority of comments they've seen is "this is World of Elfcraft!" "Too many Elves Blizzard!!" etc etc, even making an April Fools joke in reference to it.

With no newly announced Allied Races seen at Blizzcon, we can see that they are doing their best to tone down expectations of what's to come. I assume next Blizzcon we'll see what Allied Races are in store, and from their interview comments this Blizzcon they seem to want to add Allied Races where it makes sense to do so.

Ion also proposed the question (in reference to being asked about Undead Elves): If they races do exist, then are they standard members of the Horde? And if they are standard members of the Horde, is it something players should have access to?

I think the key takeaway from his reply is part about "are they standard members of the Horde?" Remember we know that currently all Undead Elves follow only the orders of Sylvanas and whoever she has dispatched them to, maybe this is what Ion was trying to imply: Would you ever see an Undead Elf go off and do something for the Horde that wasn't related to or in relevance of their leader?

You could extrapolate those questions to any potential Allied Race btw.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Fair enough. I have no issue with darker skin tones for thalassian elves. But I do have an issue with people who say they could be used as a level of differentiation between Blood and High Elves as there are unfortunate connotations in the lore to such a scenario if all the darker skin elves turned out to have chosen exile.

Which again, not my opinion nor the reason I personally make these edits.

Now, the opinion that Silver Covenant Elves could have darker skins because they have had enough intermarrying with humans in their 3000 years of coexistence is something I could see happening if the impetus is to differentiate High Elves on the Alliance to those on the Horde -yet I would much rather prefer darker skin tones for every elf- But the hybridization does add an interesting layer of differentiation as lore itself, not just aesthetic.

But yes, the notion that all the brown skinned helves would have chosen exile is silly, unless they were like, segregated to the border and yeah the implications are indeed yikes for that.

[Evilfish]

Kul'Tirans are also Humans as well. Didn't stop a different aesthetic. A "lifestyle difference" is the reason given for KulTirans having some different forms of Humans. And High Elves and Blood Elves definitely have different lifestyles.

Kultirans are also fat. But hey, just let Blizzard know you want fat elves too.

However I'm afraid he's right. If you already had Belfs in the Alliance, the distinction, or lack of it wouldn't matter all that much. But it does and you fellas just really want to tell everyone who points that out that they are "just wrong".

[Obelisk Kai]

Which again, not my opinion nor the reason I personally make these edits.

Now, the opinion that Silver Covenant Elves could have darker skins because they have had enough intermarrying with humans in their 3000 years of coexistence is something I could see happening if the impetus is to differentiate High Elves on the Alliance to those on the Horde -yet I would much rather prefer darker skin tones for every elf- But the hybridization does add an interesting layer of differentiation as lore itself, not just aesthetic.

But yes, the notion that all the brown skinned helves would have chosen exile is silly, unless they were like, segregated to the border and yeah the implications are indeed yikes for that.

The Silver Covenant has not had three thousand years of cohabitation with Humanity though. They were recently formed by Veressa in Dalaran, and they located in Dalaran because her husband was the leader of the Kirin Tor. The vast majority of SC members are Farstriders, who led mostly solitary lives on the outskirts of Quel'thalas battling their enemies.

The High Elf Mages of Dalaran were the only ones who maintained a three thousand year relationship with humanity, and most of them returned to Quel'thalas folliowing it's destruction and then returned to Dalaran as the Sunreavers, which is supported by Jaina recognizing the Sunreavers as the Elves who taught Humanity magic.

A few High Elves from Dalaran accompanied Jaina to Theramore and likely died in the bombing, and a very few High Elf Magi remained with Dalaran and later joined the Silver Covenant.

I bring this up to emphasise that there has not been a long standing community of expatriate High Elves that could form the nucleus of a differentiated High Elf race. Most of the Dalarani Elves became the Sunreavers.

On the topic of darker skin tones for the Blood Elves, I would like to see them but I personally doubt it's going to happen.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

The Silver Covenant has not had three thousand years of cohabitation with Humanity though. They were recently formed by Veressa in Dalaran, and they located in Dalaran because her husband was the leader of the Kirin Tor. The vast majority of SC members are Farstriders, who led mostly solitary lives on the outskirts of Quel'thalas battling their enemies.

That the fast majority of the Silver Covenant are Farstriders is a headcanon of yours, Obelisk. You have no confirmation of this.

The High Elf Mages of Dalaran were the only ones who maintained a three thousand year relationship with humanity, and most of them returned to Quel'thalas folliowing it's destruction and then returned to Dalaran as the Sunreavers, which is supported by Jaina recognizing the Sunreavers as the Elves who taught Humanity magic.

That MOST or even the LARGEST grouop of Elven mages returned to Quel'thalas with Kael is another headcanon of yours. Jaina only says that the Sunreavers ARE OF those first mages that taught magic to humans. No percentages on how many. Plus, we KNOW that the Dalaran populace was evacuated, that's why there are still so many High Elves in Dalaran.

Even so, even IF the Sunreavers are most of the mages that taught magic to Humans, you are literally discounting the following 2500 years of High Elves moving to Dalaran and having their own community there. Your point about the Sunreavers is both highly speculative, and moot to the overall Dalarani High Elf potential populace.

A few High Elves from Dalaran accompanied Jaina to Theramore and likely died in the bombing, and a very few High Elf Magi remained with Dalaran and later joined the Silver Covenant.

More headcanon on why would the be "the few." As far as implications go, most of the Dalarani High Elves are Kirin Tor. Again, Dalaran is like one third High Elves, elves that as far as we know never left with Kael'thas -why would have they RETURNED to Dalaran after Garithos?- The most obvious explanation is that they are simply the evacuated HE population of Dalaran as stated per Chronicles III, and Vereesa rallied enough of them to create the Silver Covenant.

I bring this up to emphasise that there has not been a long standing community of expatriate High Elves that could form the nucleus of a differentiated High Elf race.

Most of the Dalarani Elves became the Sunreavers

.

And again, that is just speculation on your part with little bases on evidence -unlike the fact that we know most of the Dalaran populace was evacuated- and even IF most of the Sunreavers are the same High Elves that taught magic to humans and left with Kael'thas, it's irrelevant to the following 2.5k years of cohabitation between Humans and Elves in Dalaran.

[Zulkhan]

Oh IDK, maybe Joining the Horde, which killed a bunch of High Elves during the second War and which is known to be a cause of resentment for the Windrunners, is reason enough for a group of Dalaran High Elves to feel utterly betrayed? And add to THAT the ideology division of the mana sucking.

Like all Vereesa had to do was rally all the High Elves in Dalaran that were in a situation like herself -Her family killed by the Horde during the Second War- add the distaste for their new ideologies AND the fact that they exiled enayone who disagreed, and you got yourself a pretty mobilized miltant group. Also it's not like every High Elf in Dalaran followed her, as many High Elves turned neutral with Dalaran.

The Silver Covenant is just those that didn't, and they had PLENTY reasons beyond what you claim to be the only one.

Cause yeah, Dalaran was an alliance city until WoTLK, and it's kinda obvious that after what happened with Garithos, any High Elf remaining on that populace was more loyal to the Alliance than the Crown, so adding joining the Horde to that and... yeah.

Then why Auric, representing the Allerian High Elves of TBC, does not show the same resentment towards the Blood Elves, even though he witnessed the atrocities of the Second War as well? Hell, not even Alleria despises them, she actively tried to bring them back to the Alliance because of her own faction preferences and nothing more. The only recognizable difference between Auric/Alleria and the Silver Covenant is that the first two couldn't be exiled since they never returned to Azeroth to begin with.

Tone that emotion down, buddy. I was quoting Katchii and not you, so simmer the fuck down. When I want to read your posts and concern myself with your theories, I’ll quote you and you’ll know it. Believe it or not, you’re far from a focal point of mine.

Your posts are so goddamn stupid that I can't even. Yes, you quoted him, you quoted a response towards a post of mine, to which you replied like this:

I appreciate the accuracy and truth of your post. I don't think logic is all that popular in this thread, however. It seems to be only met with ridiculous rebuttals or toxicity.

and now you're acting numb over the fact that I'm addressing this post of yours, pretending it had nothing to do with mine. I can't say if you're playing dumb or if you're dumb for real.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Then why Auric, representing the Allerian High Elves of TBC, does not show the same resentment towards the Blood Elves, even though he witnessed the atrocities of the Second War as well? Hell, not even Alleria despises them, she actively tried to bring them back to the Alliance because of her own faction preferences and nothing more. The only recognizable difference between Auric/Alleria and the Silver Covenant is that the first two couldn't be exiled since they never returned to Azeroth to begin with.

Considering we were talking about Vereesa and the Silver Covenant, bringing Auric up is kinda moot, specially since he is taking the place of "High Elf Ambassador" in Quel'danas, not even specifically the Allerian High Elves, so we can't eve say he is representative of them as Vereesa is of the SC. Regardless, The Silver Covenant itself -the specific one we were talking about- is the radicalized one.

That's the point, the Silver Covenant is a Highly radicalized anti Blood Elf/anti Horde group, which I can't say is as true for the Highvale or the Allerian (tho I would say those are indeed anti-Horde) maybe the later two don't have the same resentment towards Blood Elves, but what I am saying is that the Silver Covenant is based on being anti-blood elf and anti horde, that's on their description.

-Yet even so, Three Sisters tells us that Vereesa believes there is "redemption" for the Blood Elves, so her hostility towards them as definitely softened, and maybe she, like Alleria, believes the Blood Elves should return to the Alliance instead of just fighting them.-

But the original point stands, the Silver Covenant is the most radicalized High Elven group, and that have plenty of reasons beyond just the exile by Lor'themar. Whether the Allerian HE agree with them is uncofirmed, yet also moot. On one hand some of them could be like Auric and try to cohexist, some of them could be like Taela and not like being compared or associated to a Blood Elf, or others could be like Alleria herself and see the Blood Elves as a disgrace that must be rectified. Thing is, the Allerian haven't done much since BC, which is a shame and we don't know what like the are toeing.

As far as wild speculation goes, they might has well returned to Azeroth and joined the Silver Covenant, sadly we literally don't know what has happened to them asa group, all we know is that Auric is the High Elf representative in Quel'danas, but in the general sense, not as an Allerian representative.

[Fyersing]

If an Undead Elf variant is planned as a result of the events on the PTR, it will certainly not be accompanied by playable High Elves.

Oh, well, I agree. If we just make note of the fact that all of the Allied Races, thus far, could be considered "sub-races" for all of Classic, TBC, and Cataclysm's playable races then we're left with expecting an Allied Race each for the following:

Gnome (very likely to be Mechagnomes)
Worgen
Forsaken
Goblin (very likely to be Gilbin, less likely to be the Vulpera)

No matter what the Forsaken-inspired Allied Race ends up being, it would almost certainly be paired with a Worgen-inspired Allied Race.

Having said that, as someone who believes we have reached maximum Elf, I do not expect to an Undead Elf variant added. I believe the next Horde allied race will be the Vulpera.

I actually suspect that it won't be Vulpera, largely because they don't actually have any connection to the Goblins at all (outside of models, of course, but which isn't a narrative link). I wouldn't stake my name against that, though, because Vulpera definitely seem more interesting to me than Gilbin's at the moment, but that could change by 8.2.

Either way, if they were ever to implement playable HE's it'd be in a future expansion at this point.

Then why Auric, representing the Allerian High Elves of TBC, does not show the same resentment towards the Blood Elves, even though he witnessed the atrocities of the Second War as well? Hell, not even Alleria despises them, she actively tried to bring them back to the Alliance because of her own faction preferences and nothing more. The only recognizable difference between Auric/Alleria and the Silver Covenant is that the first two couldn't be exiled since they never returned to Azeroth to begin with.

It's very easy to understand.

The two groups didn't agree with each other, politically, and the decade that follows the BE's joining the Horde pitted the two ideological adversaries against each other; which ultimately radicalized them both into reacting violently towards each other. Thus, Vereesa and her followers have grown into a violently anti-Horde, and anti-BE (and while the BE's have had enough on their minds to avoid being pulled into this dichotomy, wholesale, many of their population have become violently anti-Alliance, and extremely anti-HE/anti-VE as well).